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Lisbon vote October 2nd - How do you intend to vote?

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    #3662
    fligedlyflick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭fligedlyflick


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    That's not necessarily true at all. If I have one spare ticket, offer it to you, and you say No, I'm not going to hang on to it just in case you change your mind.



    Also not necessarily true - if you accept the ticket you could call me back and reverse your decision, for at least as long as I can usefully dispose of the ticket elsewhere.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


    and what about if you offered me a ticket, i said no and you harassed me for 3 months telling me to buy the ticket or else?


  • Options
    #3663
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    fligedlyflick wrote: »
    are you impaired in the vision section of the face?

    No I just happened to see allot more FG and IBEC posters around. I must go to the eye doctor since I don't ware glasses thank you for your concern.


  • Options
    #3664
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    fligedlyflick wrote: »
    and what about if you offered me a ticket, i said no and you harassed me for 3 months telling me to buy the ticket or else?

    When did anything like that happen? What I saw was more akin to you rejecting the ticket because you thought it was to go see Daniel O'Donnell and I came back and explained that it was actually for the world cup final and asked if you changed your mind in light of this new information.


  • Options
    #3665
    douglashyde
    Registered Users Posts: 694 ✭✭✭douglashyde


    fligedlyflick wrote: »
    and what about if you offered me a ticket, i said no and you harassed me for 3 months telling me to buy the ticket or else?


    very interested about ticket, do you have a contact number i can ring you on to arrange collection?

    Doug


  • Options
    #3666
    fligedlyflick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭fligedlyflick


    Elmo wrote: »
    No I just happened to see allot more FG and IBEC posters around. I must go to the eye doctor since I don't ware glasses thank you for your concern.

    :D ok.


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    #3667
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    meditraitor wrote: »
    +
    More people voted YES in this referendum than any other

    I thought more voted YES to join the EEC.


  • Options
    #3668
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    When did anything like that happen? What I saw was more akin to you rejecting the ticket because you thought it was to go see Daniel O'Donnell and I came back and explained that it was actually for the world cup final and asked if you changed your mind in light of this new information.

    What if the NO side pestered you for the next 8 months?


  • Options
    #3669
    fligedlyflick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭fligedlyflick


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    When did anything like that happen? What I saw was more akin to you rejecting the ticket because you thought it was to go see Daniel O'Donnell and I came back and explained that it was actually for the world cup final and asked if you changed your mind in light of this new information.


    no no no, i thought i was buying a ticket for daniel when you had a ticket for phil collins, you scribbled over daniels name and wrote in phil collins and then offered it to me


  • Options
    #3670
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    fligedlyflick wrote: »
    and what about if you offered me a ticket, i said no and you harassed me for 3 months telling me to buy the ticket or else?

    I dont know, but that kind of scenario certainly wouldn't be relevant in the EU/Lisbon Treaty forum.


  • Options
    #3671
    rumour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 836 ✭✭✭rumour


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Yes it's always easier to appeal to fear than rationality.

    Finally we agree on something.


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    #3672
    fligedlyflick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭fligedlyflick


    Elmo wrote: »
    I thought more voted YES to join the EEC.


    the EEC was the daniel o'donnell show, we're now viewing phil collins


  • Options
    #3673
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Elmo wrote: »
    What if the NO side pestered you for the next 8 months?

    If they "pestered" me with facts then they wouldn't be pestering me. Some people's definition of "pestering" seems to be "making changes that you asked for and giving legally binding guarantees to address several of the issues that you had with the ticket".

    If I reject the ticket because I think it's for Daniel O'Donnell and it was actually for the world cup final, would you consider it "pestering" to point that out? The only thing the no side could do for the next 8 months as far as I can see is continue to try to convince me that the ticket's really for Daniel O'Donnell, despite the words "world cup final" very clearly printed on them....


  • Options
    #3674
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    rumour wrote: »
    Finally we agree on something.

    I've agreed in general terms that people are more easily motivated by their base emotions than by rationality, something which I don' think anyone ever denied. What have we shown?


  • Options
    #3675
    fligedlyflick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭fligedlyflick


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    If they "pestered" me with facts then they wouldn't be pestering me. Some people's definition of "pestering" seems to be "making changes that you asked for and giving legally binding guarantees to address several of the issues that you had with the ticket".

    If I reject the ticket because I think it's for Daniel O'Donnell and it was actually for the world cup final, would you consider it "pestering" to point that out? The only thing the no side could do for the next 8 months as far as I can see is continue to try to convince me that the ticket's really for Daniel O'Donnell, despite the words "world cup final" very clearly printed on them....


    or daniel o donnell stapled on to the stub


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    #3676
    rumour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 836 ✭✭✭rumour


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    That's not necessarily true at all. If I have one spare ticket, offer it to you, and you say No, I'm not going to hang on to it just in case you change your mind.



    Also not necessarily true - if you accept the ticket you could call me back and reverse your decision, for at least as long as I can usefully dispose of the ticket elsewhere.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    In both cases you have moved to new decisions and are faced again with, If I say YES defacto I proceed to new decision. If I say NO I can face this decision again.

    That does not mean I will.


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    #3677
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    fligedlyflick wrote: »
    or daniel o donnell stapled on to the stub

    I'm not really seeing your point here. The best analogy for the referendum is that the tickets always said "world cup final" but someone came along and convinced me that they actually said "Daniel O'Donnell", so the guy selling them stapled on the receipt proving that the tickets were indeed for the world cup final and at no point did they ever say Daniel O'Donnell....


  • Options
    #3678
    fligedlyflick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭fligedlyflick


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    I'm not really seeing your point here. The best analogy for the referendum is that the tickets always said "world cup final" but someone came along and convinced me that they actually said "Daniel O'Donnell", so the guy selling them stapled on the receipt proving that the tickets were indeed for the world cup final and at no point did they ever say Daniel O'Donnell....

    who was in this final, france and holland?
    right lets just say the world cup final was analogised to the EU constitution, you tried selling it to me but i was having none of it, seeing as you tried selling it to someone else and they were'nt interested,
    you came back and said , "listen mate, i have tickets for daniel o'donnel, (lets analogised him as lisbon), fancy buying one?", on closer inspection i see that you just erased the world cup print and wrote daniel across it, with some promise of after show party loosely stapled to the stub,

    can we stop these daniel o' donnell analogys, i'm more of a black/doom metal fan myself.


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    #3679
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    If they "pestered" me with facts then they wouldn't be pestering me. Some people's definition of "pestering" seems to be "making changes that you asked for and giving legally binding guarantees to address several of the issues that you had with the ticket".

    If I reject the ticket because I think it's for Daniel O'Donnell and it was actually for the world cup final, would you consider it "pestering" to point that out? The only thing the no side could do for the next 8 months as far as I can see is continue to try to convince me that the ticket's really for Daniel O'Donnell, despite the words "world cup final" very clearly printed on them....

    I was trying to kill the metaphor by asking the question directly. And I am talking of now if the Media, the government and the opposition parties said to you that they disagreed now with your vote and that they felt that you should change it how would you feel doing it all over again.

    Again to ask the question, the answer of which may have been lost in the metaphors (TBH I don't particular like Phil Collins either), but will some countries loss their Commissioner in 2012?


  • Options
    #3680
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    fligedlyflick wrote: »
    and what about if you offered me a ticket, i said no and you harassed me for 3 months telling me to buy the ticket or else?

    If you had made the assumption that I was only asking you so that I could steal your assets, perform an abortion on your wife, conscript your children, raise your taxes, reduce your wages, prevent you from cutting turf, steal all your fish, force you into foreign wars, ignore your wishes, destroy your livelihood, replace you with cheaper Polish workers, fill your house full of Turks, imprison you without trial to face the death penalty for crimes committed under the Azerbaijan penal code, lock you in an economic straitjacket, eradicate your identity, create a one world government, prevent you ever voting again, microchip your children, deride your god, take away your rights....well, I admit my first instinct would be not to ask you in the first place. If I made an effort to address those bizarre concerns and asked again, only to be accused of bullying and lying, I would probably think my first instinct had been right.

    Fortunately, it's a constitutional requirement that you do get asked.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Options
    #3681
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Elmo wrote: »
    I was trying to kill the metaphor by asking the question directly. And I am talking of now if the Media, the government and the opposition parties said to you that they disagreed now with your vote and that they felt that you should change it how would you feel doing it all over again.

    Again to ask the question, the answer of which may have been lost in the metaphors (TBH I don't particular like Phil Collins either), but will some countries loss their Commissioner in 2012?

    No, they won't. The Commission to be appointed in 2014 will be the first to which the Decision to keep a full Commission will apply.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #3682
    rumour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 836 ✭✭✭rumour


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    I've agreed in general terms that people are more easily motivated by their base emotions than by rationality, something which I don' think anyone ever denied. What have we shown?

    Perhaps that referendums are not a good tool?
    Perhaps that leaders of other countries were right to avoid them?
    Perhaps democracy is not all its cracked up to be?
    Perhaps we should just leave these decisions to the powers that be and accept their wisdom as they must ultimately be right?

    I don't know. But the process has been a fiasco from start to finish, we haven't made ourselves out to be a nation that debated the mechanism's of the future intergration of Europe. Rather,

    1 a bunch of arrogant spoilt kids who do not know whats good for them
    2 a nation of spineless idiots who now want our help.

    Put 1 and 2 together and what do we get as Ireland, in terms of PR it couldn't possibly be worse.


  • Options
    #3683
    fligedlyflick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭fligedlyflick


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    If you had made the assumption that I was only asking you so that I could steal your assets, perform an abortion on your wife, conscript your children, raise your taxes, reduce your wages, prevent you from cutting turf, steal all your fish, force you into foreign wars, ignore your wishes, destroy your livelihood, replace you with cheaper Polish workers, fill your house full of Turks, imprison you without trial to face the death penalty for crimes committed under the Azerbaijan penal code, lock you in an economic straitjacket, eradicate your identity, create a one world government, prevent you ever voting again, microchip your children, deride your god, take away your rights....


    admittedly i always view people with that assumption


  • Options
    #3684
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    rumour wrote: »
    I don't know. But the process has been a fiasco from start to finish, we haven't made ourselves out to be a nation that debated the mechanism's of the future intergration of Europe. Rather,

    1 a bunch of arrogant spoilt kids who do not know whats good for them
    2 a nation of spineless idiots who now want our help.

    Put 1 and 2 together and what do we get as Ireland, in terms of PR it couldn't possibly be worse.

    I think we sent the same message out last time. The only thing that changed was the vote!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Options
    #3685
    fligedlyflick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭fligedlyflick


    what about the eu aviation law in 2012 which will make every pilot work 60 hours a week?
    funny coir failed to notice that one and fianna failed to deny it


  • Options
    #3686
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    rumour wrote: »
    Perhaps that referendums are not a good tool?
    Perhaps that leaders of other countries were right to avoid them?
    Perhaps democracy is not all its cracked up to be?
    Perhaps we should just leave these decisions to the powers that be and accept their wisdom as they must ultimately be right?

    I don't know. But the process has been a fiasco from start to finish, we haven't made ourselves out to be a nation that debated the mechanism's of the future intergration of Europe. Rather,

    1 a bunch of arrogant spoilt kids who do not know whats good for them
    2 a nation of spineless idiots who now want our help.

    Put 1 and 2 together and what do we get as Ireland, in terms of PR it couldn't possibly be worse.

    Yes, I'm afraid we're going to have to spin the second vote for external consumption like nobody's business. Still, we can at least rely on the Yes parties to do that.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Options
    #3687
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    If you had made the assumption that I was only asking you so that I could steal your assets, perform an abortion on your wife, conscript your children, raise your taxes, reduce your wages, prevent you from cutting turf, steal all your fish, force you into foreign wars, ignore your wishes, destroy your livelihood, replace you with cheaper Polish workers, fill your house full of Turks, imprison you without trial to face the death penalty for crimes committed under the Azerbaijan penal code, lock you in an economic straitjacket, eradicate your identity, create a one world government, prevent you ever voting again, microchip your children, deride your god, take away your rights....well, I admit my first instinct would be not to ask you in the first place. If I made an effort to address those bizarre concerns and asked again, only to be accused of bullying and lying, I would probably think my first instinct had been right.

    Fortunately, it's a constitutional requirement that you do get asked.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    But we would have lost our commissioner and we are now and will be part of the EDA (which comes under this treaty in far more respects then before) which will distribute arms to all European armies some for war others for "peace" missions. And weather you like it or not over the coming years Ireland will have to increase military spending to help improve its military, that is if the government are all that concerned about it, John O'Doughue might want to go on a trip first.

    And to be honest who is to say that I agree with a Foreign Affairs Ambassador for the EU. If I don't agree with it and you do you can really tell me it will be a wonderful addition to the EU, there are always pros and cons.


  • Options
    #3688
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    fligedlyflick wrote: »
    what about the eu aviation law in 2012 which will make every pilot work 60 hours a week?
    funny coir failed to notice that one and fianna failed to deny it

    Your inaccurate take on the issue would no doubt have been invaluable to them.

    amused,
    Scofflaw


  • Options
    #3689
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    rumour wrote: »
    Perhaps that referendums are not a good tool?
    Perhaps that leaders of other countries were right to avoid them?
    In certain instances I would agree, unless lying is made illegal.
    rumour wrote: »
    Perhaps democracy is not all its cracked up to be?
    It's not perfect but it's the best we've come up with.
    rumour wrote: »
    Perhaps we should just leave these decisions to the powers that be and accept their wisdom as they must ultimately be right?
    I wouldn't say they "must" ultimately be right but we put them in there to represent us and if we want everything to be done through referendums well then there's not a whole lot for them to do. Certain things are matters of opinion like divorce and abortion but we put governments in to legislate and lead the country and if we don't like the way they're doing it we can vote them out

    rumour wrote: »
    1 a bunch of arrogant spoilt kids who do not know whats good for them
    2 a nation of spineless idiots who now want our help.
    Neither of those is the case. We voted no, had our issues addressed and voted yes.


  • Options
    #3690
    fligedlyflick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭fligedlyflick


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Your inaccurate take on the issue would no doubt have been invaluable to them.

    amused,
    Scofflaw

    pardon me, i asked the question as it was on channel 4 news in front of me little over 20 minutes ago,
    unless of course you have suspicions that declan ganly bought shares in them?

    offended
    fligedlyflick.


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    #3691
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    In certain instances I would agree, unless lying is made illegal.

    Then FF and FG would have to be made illegal organisations, actually all politicians would be made illegal.

    Anyway it is now in the hands of the British and the Czechs. We just don't have as good broadband.


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