Introduction of fees seemingly imminent

Jay P

I read this yesterday in the paper, Batt O' Keefe wants to introduce College fees, but not an upfront method, a student loan system.

Article from The Irish Times:

THE PROSPECT of parents and students being asked to pay over €5,000 in “upfront’’ college fees has receded after Minister for Education Batt O’Keeffe yesterday signalled his backing for a new student loan scheme.

While the return of fees is one of five options in a discussion document – due to be circulated to Cabinet Ministers this evening – Mr O’Keeffe favours student loans and will not push for fees, according to education sources.

The return of fees, first floated as a possibility by the Minister last year, is strongly opposed by Green Party Ministers. Parents will not be liable for any upfront payment under the Australian–style student loan scheme proposed. Instead, the burden of payment shifts to the students themselves.

Under the scheme, students take out a loan, repayable once they reach a certain income threshold after graduation.

At one stage, there was speculation that parents could face fees of more than €5,000 for general arts and business degrees and even more for expensive courses like medicine.

While parents will welcome the decision to abandon upfront fees, the move will increase pressure on the higher education sector in the Republic, already poorly funded by international standards.

If the loan scheme proceeds, it will be three to four years at the earliest before a new income stream is available to third-level colleges. The Cabinet will not make a formal decision – based on the O’Keeffe options paper – until later this year.

If approved by Cabinet, the new student loan scheme is likely to be introduced in September 2010. Students, who are already in higher education, will not be liable for any new charges. But they will continue to pay the student registration charge of about €1,500.

Sources say Mr O’Keeffe wants his Cabinet colleagues’ observations on the options before he formally presents his own recommendation later this year.

The much-delayed report – originally due to be circulated before the local and European elections last month – sets out in detail various options ranging from the reintroduction of tuition fees to a student loans facility or a combination of both.

The student loan model – or a variation of it – is used in Australia, New Zealand and Britain.

Research conducted three years ago in the Republic indicates that graduates earn on average about 70 per cent more than those who do not proceed to college.

But graduate unemployment – less than 3 per cent at the time of the survey – has since soared.

The Union of Students in Ireland claims the average student in Australia finishes university with a $12,000 debt, which takes about a decade to repay. It says almost one third of the multibillion dollar debt owed by university students has been written off by the federal government as a bad or doubtful debt. In the US, the default rate on student loans has increased to about 7 per cent.

Mr O’Keeffe has said his recommendation will be grounded on the principles of equity, access and affordability and that the free fees initiative had little impact on getting more people from disadvantaged areas into college.

Later this year, the higher education strategy group, chaired by economist Dr Colin Hunt, will publish its blueprint for the development of the higher education sector over the next two decades.

This article appears in the print edition of the Irish Times

Personally I'm in favour of this, the introduction of College fees. Firstly, Colleges are starved of cash and I would like the best education possible next year, though I imagine it will take a few years to kick in. Secondly, people might appreciate their education more than they do now as they'd have to pay for it themselves instead of sponging off the state.

Also, just like everyone else, I'd be opposed to the other method of paying upfront as it would mean my parents would have to get a loan to pay for that as well as my accommodation.

So, thoughts of everyone else?

snazzy

Thanks for posting that.
Makes for an interesting read.
To be honest, I'm not sure where my own opinions lie.
While I may not be required to use this student loan scheme, I have three younger siblings who will all be following me into college in the next 5 years. It may be a burden off my parents shoulders but it could be a serious stumbling block for people after college who feel under increased pressure to pay off this student loan and any others that they may be required to take out during their third level education.
Some people perfer not to owe anything after college and this doesn't give them that option.

I'll have to read into this more.

croker1

have you ever thought of the people who might not be able to afford the fees??? its all well and good you saying your in favour of it when you obviously have the money to pay it.... what about those who dont....

mink_man

im against it

Gavin "shels"

mink_man wrote: »

im against it

Like so, I don't see how it's feasible *see what I did there:D* to be putting these fees onto education, right we already have €1,800 to pay in admin fees which I'm sure deters some people away from 3rd Level Education so introducing more fees will only deter more people.

We're in a recession, one of the worse ever, so instead of trying to bulid up a highly skilled and educated workforce to appeal to foriegn and native businesses to relocate/move here, we're going to slap yet another fee on 3rd Level Education. To me this seems not very logical, but sure like most other things done by this government it doesn't surprise me, sure add on income levies and then expect people to spend more!?:rolleyes:

No to anymore fees, we already have €1,800 to pay so stop hitting the future of this country and start hitting the cnuts that caused this mess aka the banks, and most importantly yourselves, our infamous Government.

whadabouchasir

Gavin shels wrote: »

Like so, I don't see how it's feasible *see what I did there:D*

You had to draw attention to your unbelieveable wit didn't you?I think that this loan scheme is just another way to gain some extra money rather than improve colleges.I think that the government are just going to use students to pay for college rather than taxes,so the amount of mony going to fund third level won't increase.

MrPirate

Gavin shels wrote: »

Like so, I don't see how it's feasible *see what I did there:D* to be putting these fees onto education, right we already have €1,800 to pay in admin fees which I'm sure deters some people away from 3rd Level Education so introducing more fees will only deter more people.

We're in a recession, one of the worse ever, so instead of trying to bulid up a highly skilled and educated workforce to appeal to foriegn and native businesses to relocate/move here, we're going to slap yet another fee on 3rd Level Education. To me this seems not very logical, but sure like most other things done by this government it doesn't surprise me, sure add on income levies and then expect people to spend more!?:rolleyes:

No to anymore fees, we already have €1,800 to pay so stop hitting the future of this country and start hitting the cnuts that caused this mess aka the banks, and most importantly yourselves, our infamous Government.

I agree with you 100%. I've been opposed the the idea of re-introducing these fees since day one. Every time I heard something new of an update as far as the fees, I voiced my opinion. I even got into a heated argument in the middle of my economics class with my teacher! (I raged.)

Sure, some people this won't have any real effect on them, because they're the lucky ones with the disposable income. However, myself, and many many others, can't see any sort of college fees actually possible. I've got 3 younger siblings; 1 is going into 1st year and another into her JC year, it's going to be one hell of an expensive year.

This government has done NOTHING to help us out. They get us deep into this mess with their lack of any sort of intelligence on economics (Supply-side economics Ftl), and yet, they expect the same kind of economics that got us into this mess to get us out of it? Perfect sense.:rolleyes:
As you said before, we're in a horrible recession; hell, technically it's a depression. And yet increased taxes and cut-backs on expenditure is going to get us out of this? So by introducing fees into college, they intend to invest into the human capital of Ireland? By creating disincentives for people to continue on with education, it's going to cause more people to go to college? Hell, the registration is a big enough fee as it is! I don't know how the hell we're going to pay for it... The fees are going to take from the human capital that Ireland already has. Plus, with the construction industry going into a titanium wall we now have a vast bulk of people to be retrained for other jobs. Are they expected to pay these fees too if what they wish to do is through college? Ireland will have a depleted educated/skilled workforce, resulting in us being even more screwed than we already are.
At the present, this country is rather screwed economically and politically. It really says something about a country when the two largest political parties are both conservative parties. As well as the constitution still basically saying that women should be in the kitchen.(http://www.constitution.ie/reports/ConstitutionofIreland.pdf article 41)

If our beloved education minister is reading this, prepare for war. I know that the students, whether they'll be effected or not, will be ready to oppose your intended fees to the very end. I know I'm not alone.

Personally,


Could do us a bit of good...
*If anyone gets that reference I will love you.:P *

If an Australian style loan system was introduced I wouldn't be extremely against it.

I'm happy as long as I don't have to pay upfront (because, quite simply I couldn't afford it) fees. This loan system isn't ideal, but it's better than the alternatives.

MrPirate

MrPirate wrote: »

*If anyone gets that reference I will love you.:P *

You love the smell of napalm in the morning? I can't say I like it that much...

MrPirate

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

You love the smell of napalm in the morning? I can't say I like it that much...

You get a love cake.

Jay P

croker1 wrote: »

have you ever thought of the people who might not be able to afford the fees??? its all well and good you saying your in favour of it when you obviously have the money to pay it.... what about those who dont....

Eh....I can't afford the fees, hence me saying I'm glad they're not coming in as an up-front form. While my parents would have paid, they would have been very silly to do so, they really wouldn't have been able to pay for it and have any kind of decent existance, they already have a very large mortgage and I have an older brother already in college and two younger brothers who will eventually go to College. This way provides a method to allow people pay it in a fair way. You go to college, get a job afterwards. When you earn a certain amount, you begin to pay the fees back like a loan. Like the article says, it's already in place in the UK and Australia, so obviously it mus be somewhat effective.

Gavin shels wrote: »

Like so, I don't see how it's feasible *see what I did there:D* to be putting these fees onto education, right we already have €1,800 to pay in admin fees which I'm sure deters some people away from 3rd Level Education so introducing more fees will only deter more people.

We're in a recession, one of the worse ever, so instead of trying to bulid up a highly skilled and educated workforce to appeal to foriegn and native businesses to relocate/move here, we're going to slap yet another fee on 3rd Level Education. To me this seems not very logical, but sure like most other things done by this government it doesn't surprise me, sure add on income levies and then expect people to spend more!?:rolleyes:

No to anymore fees, we already have €1,800 to pay so stop hitting the future of this country and start hitting the cnuts that caused this mess aka the banks, and most importantly yourselves, our infamous Government.

Well I wouldn't really agree with this, though I do see where you're coming from. We're in a recession, yes. So the government isn't getting enough money and has to cut public spending. One way is to cut thrid level spending. This is a very fair way of cutting spending, I think. Like I already said, you pay the money back after you finish. People seem to think it's their divine right to go to college, yet if this was any other country, you'd be paying. If people want to go to college, they won't let this deter them.

MrPirate

Jay P wrote: »

Well I wouldn't really agree with this, though I do see where you're coming from. We're in a recession, yes. So the government isn't getting enough money and has to cut public spending.One way is to cut thrid level spending. This is a very fair way of cutting spending, I think. Like I already said, you pay the money back after you finish. People seem to think it's their divine right to go to college, yet if this was any other country, you'd be paying. If people want to go to college, they won't let this deter them.

Not giving the banks over €24billion could have helped too.
Edit: typo

LeotheLion

what about the people who will have to take out a student loan to get them through the 4 years?so when they qualify they will have to pay back a student loan + the cost of the degree??

Jay P

MrPirate wrote: »

Not giving the banks over €24billion could have helped too.

So would you rather them not have given the money to the banks? Bare in mind, had they not given them the money and the banks had gone under, you wouldn't have money along with thousands of other people, and thousands would have lost their jobs.

But this thread is about the fees, not the banking "thing". Different thread, different day!

Stev_o

Honestly i think it's BS. Why do our generation have to suffer as a result of a recession that the government as dealt with shockingly. Were are we supposed to get the money? Mean christ they were suggesting that students be given student loans from the government to pay for the fees so after 3/4 years of college education your already in debt with the task of trying to pay back money while searching for a hard to find jobs.

Here is a easy one for them, how about the they stop being spineless politicians and put their 6 figure salaries down the national average how many working days do the government even put in? Hardly worth being paid extraordinary sums of money for being useless.

esharknz

LeotheLion wrote: »

what about the people who will have to take out a student loan to get them through the 4 years?so when they qualify they will have to pay back a student loan + the cost of the degree??

Unfortunately I had to take out a student loan in NZ (had fees for years). To begin with I had to pay 8% interest from day one. Thankfully for me, the govt at the time got voted out and it's now interest free for all people studying or working in NZ. I'd mine paid off after 3 and a half years. It does seem extremely daunting to take out a loan for study to begin with, but I've got through it, and there would have been little chance of me getting to university without the loan scheme. Worked as a good motivator for me too as I had so much to lose if I didn't get through. I believe not getting a student loan for a degree course (especially) is uncommon enough these days in NZ (it's interest free!)

LeotheLion

esharknz wrote: »

Unfortunately I had to take out a student loan in NZ (had fees for years). To begin with I had to pay 8% interest from day one. Thankfully for me, the govt at the time got voted out and it's now interest free for all people studying or working in NZ. I'd mine paid off after 3 and a half years. It does seem extremely daunting to take out a loan for study to begin with, but I've got through it, and there would have been little chance of me getting to university without the loan scheme. Worked as a good motivator for me too as I had so much to lose if I didn't get through. I believe not getting a student loan for a degree course (especially) is uncommon enough these days in NZ (it's interest free!)

I think you misunderstood me, I am talking about getting a loan to help a person live during those years,for accomodation, food,car,tax/insurance,clothes etc,I am for people who need to take ut a loan to cover themself hardly need another loan of thousands for the fees hanging over their head also

esharknz

I had to borrow for both......living costs could be borrowed too as well as student fees. So I had both hanging over my head

LeotheLion

esharknz wrote: »

I had to borrow for both......living costs could be borrowed too as well as student fees. So I had both hanging over my head

well it wouldnt be a nice feeling coming out of a degree with 2 loans to be repaid, as mentioned before it should be means tested,

K4t

Gavin shels wrote: »

Like so, I don't see how it's feasible *see what I did there:D* to be putting these fees onto education, right we already have €1,800 to pay in admin fees which I'm sure deters some people away from 3rd Level Education so introducing more fees will only deter more people.

We're in a recession, one of the worse ever, so instead of trying to bulid up a highly skilled and educated workforce to appeal to foriegn and native businesses to relocate/move here, we're going to slap yet another fee on 3rd Level Education. To me this seems not very logical, but sure like most other things done by this government it doesn't surprise me, sure add on income levies and then expect people to spend more!?:rolleyes:

No to anymore fees, we already have €1,800 to pay so stop hitting the future of this country and start hitting the cnuts that caused this mess aka the banks, and most importantly yourselves, our infamous Government.

This.

HQvhs

I personally have no problem with fees. Whilst I couldn't pay upfront (and would be absolutely opposed to any attempt to introduce this system), student loans seem to be perfectly reasonable to me. In the end, I'm the one benefiting from my education so why shouldn't I pay back a portion of the cost when I'm able to do so?

Jay P

LeotheLion wrote: »

what about the people who will have to take out a student loan to get them through the 4 years?so when they qualify they will have to pay back a student loan + the cost of the degree??

Oh...I didn't think of that... In your most recent post you mentiones means testing, which is a good idea, maybe if it worked on a sliding scale or something.... Though I do stand by what I said, if someone wants to go to college, they still can.

Also, it will take out a lot of those immature idots from the colleges. Colleges will have more money and less students who shouldn't be there.

phasers

Sure, give me all the loans you want. Sure you only have to change your address once and they never find you :pac:

Seriously though, whatever. I'm emigrating. Although I can't exactly see this persuading people to go to college... "Ooh, a 20 grand loan and no guarantee of finding a job? fabulous."
As long as my parents don't have to pay for me I don't mind, now that would be seriously unfair.

I would like to know where this leaves grants though, I need to eat next year!

Piste

croker1 wrote: »

have you ever thought of the people who might not be able to afford the fees??? its all well and good you saying your in favour of it when you obviously have the money to pay it.... what about those who dont....

The point is, everyone will be able to afford the fees, you only start paying the fees once you reach a high enough income level so you wont have to sell the clothes off your back to pay for it. As long as the money does go to the colleges and not just to plug the other holes appearing in our economy I'm in favour of it. I think our Universities will benefit hugely and more money will be put into research which in turn will create jobs. It also means that everyone who gets a degree pays for it (assuming that's true about graduates earning 70% more than non-graduates) so there is no discrimination because of parents' income.

Agent J

This is a bad idea.


1) Colleges will not get more money

This is a misunderstanding and possibly naive of people to think this. This is being introduced as a cost saving measure thefore what they want to do is replace the money being paid for by the government with money from the people. At very best case it will be neutral cash flow for the colleges more likely to loose money. Unless they are very stupid and try to increase fees to make up the difference in which case the may loose even more.

2) People already pay back their educational costs.

Its called the higher tax bracket. If you go to college you stand more chance of earning a higher income afterwards therefore not only do you pay more income tax, you pay more in consumption taxes (VAT etc) etc. These are paid back over the lifetime of the person. If they bring back fees then they make a short term gain at a long term loss

3) Smart/ Knoweldge economy
Very simple. You need an educated workforce to pretend this exists. Placing up barriers to this doesnt help this.

4) Introduce fees and you will drop the numbers going to college.

This is the most stupid part of all of this. Right now when people leave school there are no jobs,apprenticeships are hard to come by and forget about FAS. For the past 15 years college was a natural progression but if they bring back in fees you will cut the numbers going immediatley.(Simple economics, start charging and people wont use it).
Where are these people suppose to go?
Right now the only choice is the dole .
Consider that 204 * 52 = 10k a year in dole.
Even factoring in the cut for under 20s = 5k.

The money they save on fees will go right back to them in social welfare and they will get no skills/training or education for it.

Dont you love this government?

Delta Kilo

This Australian system is a farce in every way.

We are in a recession, the government need money NOW! Why bring this in when they will only get the money in 2013, when it is predicted that we will be out of the recession?? It doesn't make sense.

Secondly, you will only have to repay the debt when you are earning above a certain income. Bearing in mind that current graduates are joining dole queues, what will this threshold be? (I think accountancy graduates will have a huge advantage on this:pac:)

So why does this already beleaguered government want to bring more unpopularity on itself when they will only get the money in 4 years subject to the economy being good again and there are adequate positions for the graduates??

It just doesn't make sense, imho.

nicola09

Much as I loathe the idea of compromising our "free education", I must admit that I find the student loan idea favourable to upfront college fees. I would rather take responsibility for paying my own fees rather than expect my parents to do it, because I'm the oldest of four and it's unrealistic to expect parents to pay for that amount of people!

However it's a dreadful pity that the government are unable to see that by introducing fees they are closing the doors of third level education to a large amount of Irish students. They should provide incentives to study and not build barriers. How can they fulfil their goal of building a better Ireland while seriously inhibiting one of the countrys greatest resources; the educated workforce? Sean Lemass would be turning in his grave!

Stev_o

HQvhs wrote: »

I personally have no problem with fees. Whilst I couldn't pay upfront (and would be absolutely opposed to any attempt to introduce this system), student loans seem to be perfectly reasonable to me. In the end, I'm the one benefiting from my education so why shouldn't I pay back a portion of the cost when I'm able to do so?

If you want to make charitable donations to whatever university you wish to go to be my guess there's no one stopping you.

Acid_Violet

Gavin shels wrote: »

We're in a recession, one of the worse ever, so instead of trying to bulid up a highly skilled and educated workforce to appeal to foriegn and native businesses to relocate/move here, we're going to slap yet another fee on 3rd Level Education. To me this seems not very logical, but sure like most other things done by this government it doesn't surprise me, sure add on income levies and then expect people to spend more!?:rolleyes:

It's worth considering that we already have a highly skilled and educated workforce. Unfortunately that doesn't solve the problem of unemployment as there are tonnes of highly trained people who've worked their asses off in college who can't get jobs anymore cos there aren't any for them.

Foreign and native investors want cheap labour more than they want educated workers. That's why they're moving their factories to India and China, where people will work for less, where they know that they're infinitely more competitive and will work longer hours and a lot harder. If anything, we're too educated.

Fad

*groan* this again.........

Basically if a decent loan system is introduced, it'll be grand.

I think it's an awful idea, and it will not cause the universities to improve, and any funding that was being provided by the government will now be provided by the student meaning they dont get anything extra.

I dont really see any positive other than cutting public spending.

I dont think I'll get into my opinion on means testing.......

Acid_Violet

Also, colleges need to reconsider how they spend their money. Like the health service, the big mistakes are made because the money isn't being spent wisely, not because there's a lack of money. I've heard of societies absolutely wasting hundreds that's being handed out to them by the college on the most trivial of all things, things which aren't needed at all and which don't add to anyone's experience of the college life or education.