Wayne Dohertys murder

tbh

Des wrote: »

Are you saying that people who go out with guns, with the intent of harming others, deserve "due process".

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Due process which sees them back on the streets the next day, doing the same thing.

Well, what "same thing" are we talking about? Murder? Because I doubt that you'd get a murderer being bailed, to be fair.

A Garda force that "protects" these scumbags by informing them that their life is in danger?

Yes. The Gardai cannot decide who to help, and who not to help.

No teebs, that day has passed. When they start murdering innocent people, it's time for a change.

I agree, des, 100%. The change, however, imo, is not to arm the guards and let them start plugging away at the scummers. We cannot let the criminals dictate the actions of the rest of the population.

gurramok

tbh wrote: »

We have a justice system, and due process, because it's the sign of a civilized society. It's an easy solution to start saying "let's round up the vermin and shoot them", but it's not practical, outside of a fundamentalist society anyway.

Justice system has failed.

Try living in one of the affected areas for a change to see whats it like.

Hard cases make bad law, that's a fact. We already have the laws we need. We just need to start enforcing them. More guards, more prisons, more tax to pay for those.

Hence the failure. If the justice system was working properly, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

_blank_

tbh wrote: »

Yes. The Gardai cannot decide who to help, and who not to help.

But their resources are so tied up in the protection of scumbags, that it took them three hours to come to my mothers house when it was broken into and all her jewelery robbed.

They are helping the wrong people.

Some people don't deserve help.

walshb

Des wrote: »

I had no problem when they were just killing each other. Let them at it.

.

Well, that is the damn problem. They let them kill themselves instead of tackling the issue BEFORE the innocents died. Ireland is great at solving problems AFTER folks die. If the Gradai and the authorities were firmer from day 1, it would not have come to this. So, to say let them kill each other is not the answer. Nobody has the right to take anyone's life in such fashion

bush Baby

Hence the failure. If the justice system was working properly, we wouldn't be having this conversation

SPOT ON Gurramok, spot on....

tbh

gurramok wrote: »

Justice system has failed.

Try living in one of the affected areas for a change to see whats it like.

I live in Swords. I've seen a kid get shot in the back.

Hence the failure. If the justice system was working properly, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Your solution to the problem is to start executing people?

_blank_

walshb wrote: »

Well, that is the damn problem. They let them kill themselves instead of tackling the issue BEFORE the innocents died. Ireland is great at solving problems AFTER folks die. If the Gradai and the authorities were firmer from day 1, it would not have come to this. So, to say let them kill each other is not the answer. Nobody has the right to take anyone's life in such fashion

I have no qualms, I feel nothing but happiness when I hear of the latest gangland killing. Fúck them. I'm glad they are dead. Tey aren't people, they are animals.

But when innocent, law abiding people, are getting shot dead, then it' a problem for me.

_blank_

tbh wrote: »

Your solution to the problem is to start executing people?

Yep, shoot them straight through the heart.

inforfun

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Blah-blah-blah same shit, different day.

I wonder if anyone can make the case for capital punishment without resorting to the old "bleeding heart" trope.

I suspect not.

If there is rock solid evidence (lets say, a murder was recorded by cctv, a dozen witnesses telling all the same thing they saw, that kind of evidence) i see no reason why a murderer should stay alive.
If someone is prepared to kill, they should expect to pay the ultimate price for it, i.e the death penalty.

Like in this case, if they went on the hunt for someone they had a problem with, bring a shotgun and kill someone, then a few years in prison is not paying nearly enough for the crime.

thelordofcheese

Des wrote: »

Are you saying that people who go out with guns, with the intent of harming others, deserve "due process".

yes. they are citizens of the state and deserve the same due process as you'd get were you arrested. All are equal before the law or none of us are.

Des wrote: »

I had no problem when they were just killing each other. Let them at it.

I love this reasoning, it's really shows how easy it is for some people to embody the very traits of the scumbags they profess to hate.

Des wrote: »

We need a modern-day Lugs Brannigan. Someone who is not afraid to put these **** in their place.

We never needed Lugs. He was just a scumbag with a badge, which really begs the question, are you just looking for someone "on your side" to just lash out for your impotent rage, or do you actually want justice.

tbh

Des wrote: »

Yep, shoot them straight through the heart.

Ok, well let's just hope it's not the same cops who called to your mates house for 18 months, despite him telling them the person they were looking for wasn't there. Lets hope it's not one of the helpful posters who were so dismissive of you when you went looking for help. I applaud your open mindedness that you are now willing to give them carte blanch to shoot anyone they think needs it

walshb

Des wrote: »

I have no qualms, I feel nothing but happiness when I hear of the latest gangland killing. Fúck them. I'm glad they are dead. Tey aren't people, they are animals.

But when innocent, law abiding people, are getting shot dead, then it' a problem for me.

I am not saying I have much sympathy either, but allowing it will only
result in some innocents dying, so we must crack down hard before this occurs.
BTW, you do not know the individual circumstances of all the gang
land deaths. There have been plenty that have been gunned down because they simply owed a small amount of cash to a person. Is this something we should be applauding?

biko

The Economist wrote: »

You really are one of these "it's all in the education system" heads, huh?

Nope, just bad parenting and (maybe more important) bad surroundings when they grew up. This does not excuse them though!
But I'd rather see them shipped off to cut turf on the islands and then be relocated to another town when they get back into society again.
If you imprison them and then let them back into the same surroundings they'll just re-offend.

It's funny how some here won't even give them human status, the last few days I've read that they're vermin, dogs, animals, ... No, they're just bad people, but still people.
/my opinion

thelordofcheese

Des wrote: »

I have no qualms, I feel nothing but happiness when I hear of the latest gangland killing. Fúck them. I'm glad they are dead. Tey aren't people, they are animals.

But when innocent, law abiding people, are getting shot dead, then it' a problem for me.

That's just chilling. remind me, you're one of the 'good guys' right, because right now, i'm not seeing a lot of difference between you and scum you claim to hate.

Fizman

tbh wrote: »

Well, what "same thing" are we talking about? Murder? Because I doubt that you'd get a murderer being bailed, to be fair.
.

Look at that piece of sh1t scumbag in Galway who basically got away with murder on a stag night in Ayr square, amongst scores of other offenses.

He was still out roaming the streets, and the filthy kunt got his hands on that poor foreign girl.

gurramok

tbh wrote: »

I live in Swords. I've seen a kid get shot in the back.

Elaborate. Was the crime solved?

Was it a 'gangland' type or a domestic?

Your solution to the problem is to start executing people?

No, not as far as Des

I want them rounded up and when sentenced to life, not to be released after 12 years as after all 12 years to a 21yr old killer is nothing.

You live in Swords. I've lived in Finglas and between D4 land for years. Its like a different planet having a good police service and guess which area has had the better policing, i leave it to your imagination.

IzzyWizzy

This is the third time I've known family of a shooting victim in Dublin and all three times the victim was not involved in drugs or crime - just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. It's insane. I've heard details that haven't been/won't be in the press and it's even scummier than what's been reported. These scumbags basically are above the law. The guards bury their heads in the sand and the community cowers in case they suffer the same fate as this poor guy. People think twice about being the good Samaritan now. It's a mess.

tbh

gurramok wrote: »

Elaborate. Was the crime solved?

Was it a 'gangland' type or a domestic?

It was. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/shot-boy-fighting-for-his-life-54701.html

I want them rounded up and when sentenced to life, not to be released after 12 years as after all 12 years to a 21yr old killer is nothing.

I agree, for whatever it's worth. There seems to be a thing here whereby if I say I don't want the state to have the power of life and death over it's citizens, then I want the crims to be able to do whatever they want.

You live in Swords. I've lived in Finglas and between D4 land for years. Its like a different planet having a good police service and guess which area has had the better policing, i leave it to your imagination.

I don't really see how that's relevant, to be honest. Does the fact that Finglas has a poor policing service support a shoot to kill policy?

Spiritoftheseventies

tbh wrote: »

It was. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/shot-boy-fighting-for-his-life-54701.html



I agree, for whatever it's worth. There seems to be a thing here whereby if I say I don't want the state to have the power of life and death over it's citizens, then I want the crims to be able to do whatever they want.



I don't really see how that's relevant, to be honest. Does the fact that Finglas has a poor policing service support a shoot to kill policy?

end of the day there has to be a measured response. CAB is the key there. confiscate their assets. where it hurts them the most

K-9

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

This is the third time I've known family of a shooting victim in Dublin and all three times the victim was not involved in drugs or crime - just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. It's insane. I've heard details that haven't been/won't be in the press and it's even scummier than what's been reported. These scumbags basically are above the law. The guards bury their heads in the sand and the community cowers in case they suffer the same fate as this poor guy. People think twice about being the good Samaritan now. It's a mess.

Unfortunately this seems to be the new problem. Before you could say let the courts deal with it. Now witnesses and jurors are being intimidated.

ciaran76

At the end of the day the criminals have more rights then everyone else.
Do you think they would stay in that lifestyle if it wasn't worth it !

They act above the law but say tomorrow I act above the law and go out and shoot a known criminal dead I would be locked up and put away for 12 or so years.

If the same criminal shot me dead tomorrow I bet he would get away with it or if he was caught he would grass some details to the Gardai and he would be out in less then 3 years.

That my friends is a sad fact

Fink Goddie

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Blah-blah-blah same shit, different day.

I wonder if anyone can make the case for capital punishment without resorting to the old "bleeding heart" trope.

I suspect not.

Have u ever been the victim of a violent terrible crime or known anyone that has been murdered??

thelordofcheese

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Have u ever been the victim of a violent terrible crime or known anyone that has been murdered??

Yes to both.

What's your point.

Time Magazine

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Have u ever been the victim of a violent terrible crime or known anyone that has been murdered??

Yeah, are you more likely to be biased against a fair and democratic justice system?

gurramok

tbh wrote: »

It was. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/shot-boy-fighting-for-his-life-54701.html

That appears to be a vigilante type act. What was the outcome of the trial?

I agree, for whatever it's worth. There seems to be a thing here whereby if I say I don't want the state to have the power of life and death over it's citizens, then I want the crims to be able to do whatever they want.

I agree that if a crim was out armed and dangerous, there should be armed gardai to challenge them and if they get shot, so be it.

It reminds me of the time in Germany that if a joyride occurred by teenagers, they would be shot on sight as endagnering the public.(rightly so)

Funny that Germany does not have a joyriding problem as well as most of the continent.

I don't really see how that's relevant, to be honest. Does the fact that Finglas has a poor policing service support a shoot to kill policy?

Yes it is relevant. Effective policing does be effective in hitting(using the law with effective punishments) the crims when they are young before they graduate onto armed crime

Finglas is just one of many areas and across society(including D4) where anyone with a gun/knife can basically do what they want as the deterrent is not really there.

The cleanup rate for gun crime is somthing like less than 8% of gun murders in the last 10 years, thats alot of gunmen on the loose.

Whats the deterrent in killing someone with a gun when you have a 92% chance of getting away with it?

Fink Goddie

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Yes to both.

What's your point.

So you're cool with that person who comitted the murder getting out in 12 years?

Fink Goddie

The Economist wrote: »

Yeah, are you more likely to be biased against a fair and democratic justice system?

Whats fair about murderers walking the streets after 12 years, where they can kill again. when they took away a persons whole life and left their families lives ruined too.
Fair, my hole!!!!

tbh

Fink Goddie wrote: »

So you're cool with that person who comitted the murder getting out in 12 years?

see, in fairness, I don't think anyone is saying that. Life should mean life. In jail, tho.

thelordofcheese

Fink Goddie wrote: »

So you're cool with that person who comitted the murder getting out in 12 years?

Well they havn't, to be the best of my knowledge, so i'm cool.

But that's not the topic here. We seem to be talking about the death penality, as apparantly, justice has failed.

Which is nonsense.

TobyZiegler

Surely a system where guards could shoot anyone they thought was a scumbag would be open to the most horrendous abuse and error. There are constant threads moaning about how inept the guards are and suddenly people want them to have the power to go around shooting people at will. Come on people this is ridiculous. As frustrating as due process might be it is what makes us a civilised society.

I agree that life should mean at least 25 years.

I agree that when I hear that someone involved in crime got shot I dont really care but the problem with this attitude is that when people get used to years of shooting each other with little consequences this is when they decide that they are above the law and that they might aswell go after innocent people.