bit serious for after hours but!

did any one see the article about the reintroduction of college fees ....apparently the government is thinking of going for an Australian type student loan scheme.

now apparently arts types courses will be from 3 to 5 thousand a year engineering/medical courses a lot more expensive could cost up to 20 thousand a year ( they will be subsidized a bit ).

so if we take a conservative estimate of 5 thousand for rent and small amount of living expenses .....

what there proposing could mean graduating at 22 with a debt of 30 to 40 thousand.... gulp!

it wouldn't have to be paid back until you at a certain income level...but it in reality means your mortgaged your future for the possibility of a good career

your could argue that education is an economic investment so maybe its worth it.

or else the parents pay and event though i have a reasonably well paid job that is secure i know i couldn't finance my daughter to the tune of 40 thousand just to get her through college

what are you thought,

TheZohanS

Sounds like a great idea.

old gregg

if I go back to college as a mature student I have to pay everything so a level playing field works for me anyway

_blank_

College fees should be on a sliding scale.

All those D4 Orts types, who's daddy has bought them a cor, should pay full whack, while Mickser from Jobstown should be paid to go to college and try to further himself.

I_am_Jebus

I think it is very very hard for a school leaver averaging 17 yrs of age to invest a large amount of money in what they think will be their career of choice.

In all fairness when I left school at 17, I didnt have a clue what to do career wise which obviously affects college choice.

A 17 year old having to invest 20k say for medicine and not be sure is crazy. Fair enough you can go out and just work for awhile and gain "life experience" but good luck gettin a job at the moment.

And anyway, working in retail or McDonalds doesn't really give you much insight into your career choice. There is no work experience program for people in this country. Like spending a week as a Doctor's assistant to get an idea of what the job is like.

They are asking too much. How are these aspects managed in Australia

Puddleduck

I think its a joke. Typical government thinking of squeezing the money that people dont have right out of their pockets. Itll get to the stage where people cant afford to go to college and all of those that did will have left the country for better opportunities.

The government cant think too far ahead of their snouts.

TheZohanS

Des wrote: »

College fees should be on a sliding scale.

All those D4 Orts types, who's daddy has bought them a cor, should pay full whack, while Mickser from Jobstown should be paid to go to college and try to further himself.

It's a good point but charging college fees on expected income upon graduation has its merits too, at least that way nobody is being unfairly disadvantaged.

average_runner

I believe the loan scheme is the way to go, its the same idea in England.

In fairness too many people go to college jsut for the social life and drop out after first year. Anyone that fails or drops out of course should have to pay for the year in full instead of wasting the countries money on their education.

bobbysands81

The likes of trainee Gardai should have to pay for their training... not get paid to go to college where there's a GUARANTEED job at the end of it.

They can then pay the State back when they have their nice job.

Peyton Manning

Students who collect grants that dont have to be repaid, and proceed to piss away a college year should be made pay it back with interest if they fail exams, or dont attend at least 80% of their classes.

IvySlayer

bobbysands81 wrote: »

The likes of trainee Gardai should have to pay for their training... not get paid to go to college where there's a GUARANTEED job at the end of it.

They can then pay the State back when they have their nice job.

No.

Just no.

Puddleduck

Archimedes wrote: »

Students who collect grants that dont have to be repaid, and proceed to piss away a college year should be made pay it back with interest if they fail exams, or dont attend at least 80% of their classes.

AFAIK They do have to attend 80% of their classes in order to get the grant and if they dont then they dont qualify again.

I_am_Jebus

bobbysands81 wrote: »

The likes of trainee Gardai should have to pay for their training... not get paid to go to college where there's a GUARANTEED job at the end of it.

They can then pay the State back when they have their nice job.

to be fair the training is part of the job. most people when they start a job have to do training and get paid full wages to do so. Trainee Garda do not get full pay for most of their training and several parts of their training they are actually working on the job

ilovemybrick

The plan is exceptionally short sighted.


With Irish Universities struggling to retain funding for courses and lecturers at the moment there is no move by the government to increase the amounts received by those institutions. As such if fees are introduced they will simply replace the money that the government currently funds them with. As such there will be no increase in quality.

If I can get a better degree from a better University in the UK while paying the same amount of money; why would I stay in Ireland? If the investment is not made in young people then there will be little impetus to stay here.

Then all ideas of a recovery from the economic situation will have to change.

sunnyside

I_am_Jebus wrote: »

I think it is very very hard for a school leaver averaging 17 yrs of age to invest a large amount of money in what they think will be their career of choice.

But it's ok for that 17 year old's parents to invest the money given the same set of circumstances

What I like about this system is that it would make young adults take responsibility for their own living costs instead of being dependant on the parents forever.

Peyton Manning

Puddleduck wrote: »

AFAIK They do have to attend 80% of their classes in order to get the grant and if they dont then they dont qualify again.

It would be ideal, but as far as I know, I was never checked for attendance for the time I spent in college down south. If I wanted it to be, it would simply have been a case of showing up three times during the year to collect the three installments and that would have been that!

I_am_Jebus

sunnyside wrote: »

But it's ok for that 17 year old's parents to invest the money given the same set of circumstances

What I like about this system is that it would make young adults take responsibility for their own living costs instead of being dependant on the parents forever.

Do they?

my college fees were less than€700 a year. A part time job covers that easily.

but there's difference €700 per year vs €5,000 - €10,000 per year

asti_mivec

I totally agree with Ilovemybrick, this plan is another ridiculously short sighted way the government have come up with to generate cash.

It is a bit underhand in my opinion too as we should not be encouraging people to get into potentially crippling debt so early in their lives, and especially by trading it in for education - which should be encouraged and not targetted.

There are too many of these silly, badly thought out, proposals that are not even looking at the really critical social and economic issues but rather being used by the government to distract people from the fact that they are doing nothing to address the real concerns of the Irish people.

Wagon

average_runner wrote: »

I believe the loan scheme is the way to go, its the same idea in England.

No it ain't. People over there hate it and often say they regret going because they leave with a 15 grand debt on their head. With the prospect of going to college, working hard to get your degree (say what you want about lazy students there's a lot out there who do put the effort in) and then graduate with roughly 25 grand in debt here...it will not encourage people to attend. It'll encourage people to leave Ireland if anything.

In fairness too many people go to college jsut for the social life and drop out after first year. Anyone that fails or drops out of course should have to pay for the year in full instead of wasting the countries money on their education.

Yeah that's true but I like the currect system. If you fail or drop out then you don't get it free the next year if you want to try a course again. It's fair enough.

Most of the lazy student bums are actually just lost to be honest. As soon as they leave school they're told that they have to go to college or they'll never go. so the choose a course to shut up their teachers and parents. then they attend college and realise its **** and they dont like it. So why the big rush to get students into college? Why not just give them time to make up their own minds?

Another thing i have a serious problem with is the government constantly saying that we need a knowledge economy ie. one with graduates. And if you want ANY hope of getting a good job you need a degree. so they are trying to trap students and parents into this whole thing.

This will only encourage students to leave Ireland. Who the **** wants to stay in Ireland after they leave school with the prospect of graduating in the next few years with a massive loan over their head? the ones with ambition and a passion for what they want to do? Yeah probably, but these are the ones that will work hard anyway BECAUSE they like what they're doing, not the prospect of a huge debt over their head. Why should they be robbed?

phasers

I'm just going to emigrate, and I can see a lot of graduates doing the same after they finish their degrees.


Where does this leave the grant system though? Will there be more/less money for maintenance grants? I need that to buy food

genericguy

Des wrote: »

College fees should be on a sliding scale.

All those D4 Orts types, who's daddy has bought them a cor, should pay full whack, while Mickser from Jobstown should be paid to go to college and try to further himself.

I'd have to agree with Des (as usual), as someone who couldn't have gone to college if there had been fees at the time. It used to sicken me to hear orts types complaining about having to do 250-word book reports on top of 6 hours per week in lectures, while myself and many of my friends would be trying to hold down jobs while doing degrees applicable to the real world just so we could buy dinner every day.

Note: I went to DCU, so the orts types I speak of were communications students. Now I'm in UCD, and I have no words to describe the quality of waster that studies here.

KevR

I thought the main reason we attract investment/jobs to this country is because of our highly skilled and highly ecucated workforce.

Our poor infrastructure and the ridiculous high cost of doing business here certainly does not attract investment or jobs.

So re-introduce full fees, reduce the number of people going to university and because we have very few unskilled jobs we can have even more people spending their whole life on the dole. Not to mention companies who can provide skilled jobs won't even want to come near Ireland. Then those who were lucky enough to be able to go to university and cripple themselves with debt can pay higher taxes to support those extra people on the dole.

Great idea! :rolleyes:

Theta

Look up the table for the AUS system. If your making 80 grand you pay 8% a year or something and thats the highest rate. In reality I think it gets written off if you dont pay it back within 20 years or something.

Below $41,595 Nil
$41,595–$46,333 4% of HRI
$46,334–$51,070 4.5% of HRI
.
.
.
$72,493–$77,247 7.5% of HRI
$77,248 and above 8% of HRI

It is taken from you wage packet like a tax so its almost seemless and in my mind is the best option when it comes to fees. Would you rather pay 5 - 8k a year or have your folks have to front the money??


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_Education_Contribution_Scheme

bythewoods

phasers wrote: »

I'm just going to emigrate, and I can see a lot of graduates doing the same after they finish their degrees.


Where does this leave the grant system though? Will there be more/less money for maintenance grants? I need that to buy food

+1
As soon as I'm qualified, I'm out of here.

As it is, I'll have to take out a student loan just to cover rent/ food and so on, I'll be absolutely crippled in debt when I graduate if I have to pay back all these fees.

Also, seeing as courses like Arts are going to cost a whole lot less than the likes of Medicine, will it happen that rich D4 kids will be at an advantage to us poor culchie folks whose parents aren't rolling in it when it comes to those sort of degrees?
Certainly.

K4t

Yes it is a bit too f**king serious for AH, OP. I come here to relax and sometimes for light relief. Not to look my imminent doomed future in the face. Cop the f**k on!

Des

Des wrote: »

College fees should be on a sliding scale.

All those D4 Orts types, who's daddy has bought them a cor, should pay full whack, while Mickser from Jobstown should be paid to go to college and try to further himself.

You do realise that those "D4 orts types" you mention..their parents are already paying for both their son's/daughters to go AND for Mickser to go with a nice grant in his pocket too through the vastly higher rates of taxes they pay?

KevR

irlmarc wrote: »

It is taken from you wage packet like a tax so its almost seemless and in my mind is the best option when it comes to fees. Would you rather pay 5 - 8k a year or have your folks have to front the money??

Not having a go but this is my take on the loan scheme/full fees side of things.

My parents have been paying plenty of tax since they started working. I have worked part-time (paying some tax) while in university and the last couple of years of being in secondary school. I'm am doing my university placement at the moment - paying tax. I have to go back to university in September for one more year - I'll be working part-time and paying tax again. And when I finish I will be working and paying tax for the rest of my life.

I don't get a grant and I have to pay the €1,300 fee every year. The government (my own and my parents taxes) 'subsidise' the rest of it. We are really paying the full amount when you think about it. It's not free at all.

Doubt I would have been able to go to college at all if there were full fees (even with a loan scheme). Would have probably went working in a factory when I finished school and of course with all the manufacturing jobs that have been lost lately it's not unthinkable that I could be on the dole now.

sunnyside

Ideally the fees wouldn't come back. But if they are isn't it fairer to charge the students instead of their parents?

Stercus Accidit

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You do realise that those "D4 orts types" you mention..their parents are already paying for both their son's/daughters to go AND for Mickser to go with a nice grant in his pocket too through the vastly higher rates of taxes they pay?

But, but, we are meant to hate the rich in this thread.

Mickser the pleb is a hero here, just wait until the next AH thread where honest to goodness d4's are being harrased by Mickser the "scumbag".

Boards.ie should replace the blue format on AH with an appropriate red top imo.

Theta

KevR wrote: »

Not having a go but this is my take on the loan scheme/full fees side of things.

My parents have been paying plenty of tax since they started working. I have worked part-time (paying some tax) while in university and the last couple of years of being in secondary school. I'm am doing my university placement at the moment - paying tax. I have to go back to university in September for one more year - I'll be working part-time and paying tax again. And when I finish I will be working and paying tax for the rest of my life.

I don't get a grant and I have to pay the €1,300 fee every year. The government (my own and my parents taxes) 'subsidise' the rest of it. We are really paying the full amount when you think about it. It's not free at all.

Doubt I would have been able to go to college at all if there were full fees (even with a loan scheme). Would have probably went working in a factory when I finished school and of course with all the manufacturing jobs that have been lost lately it's not unthinkable that I could be on the dole now.

But the system they are proposing is the same till you finish college so why would it be any different for you going to college or not?? You pay it back like a tax when you start earning 40k or some similar figure? 3rd level Irish institutions are criminally underfunded by international standards.

bleg

My college account says 25595 was the cost of my 4 year programme (Pharmacy). That's roughly 6400 per year. The registration fee has been increased to 1500 this year so if students had to pay the fees it would be 7000 per year. On top of this is the cost of living which are still way higher in Ireland than in the UK. There are also better prospects, better educational facilities, better universities and better job prospects. If the fees were to come in anybody with their head screwed on wouldn't go to an Irish university.

Overheal

Let me say this: if the Irish system allowed a proper student loan scheme (borrow now, make payments after you graduate/reach X income level) I wouldnt have had to drop out for pure lack of funds. There is nothing more frustrating.

Bring the loan system I say.

Theta

bleg wrote: »

My college account says 25595 was the cost of my 4 year programme (Pharmacy). That's roughly 6400 per year. The registration fee has been increased to 1500 this year so if students had to pay the fees it would be 7000 per year. On top of this is the cost of living which are still way higher in Ireland than in the UK. There are also better prospects, better educational facilities, better universities and better job prospects. If the fees were to come in anybody with their head screwed on wouldn't go to an Irish university.

Catch 22, you cant make better facilities\courses\ uni's till you have the funding to do so which they dont now!

KevR

irlmarc wrote: »

But the system they are proposing is the same till you finish college so why would it be any different for you going to college or not?? You pay it back like a tax when you start earning 40k or some similar figure? 3rd level Irish institutions are criminally underfunded by international standards.

It's not really the same unless they lower income tax. I doubt there are any plans do that. It's likely that if full fees are introduced it will be on top of existing income tax levels.

Which would make them thieving scum! :mad:

bleg

irlmarc wrote: »

Catch 22, you cant make better facilities\courses\ uni's till you have the funding to do so which they dont now!

not really, UCC is in massive debt because of the facilities it has built over the last few years but they're still behind their UK counterparts.

bobbysands81

IvySlayer wrote: »

No.

Just no.

Why no?

irlmarc

irlmarc wrote: »

Catch 22, you cant make better facilities\courses\ uni's till you have the funding to do so which they dont now!

Ha! you really think that this is anything other than the government needing to free up more money to help the banks? The standards will remain exactly the same, just general income taxes won't be used to pay for it.

stovelid

What are the middle-class whining about now?

Just divert the monthly allowance you chisel off the state for every child into a high interest account for 17 years and use that to pay for those degrees in philosophy, theology and early-civilization.

i think it comes down to parents funding college v the student funding college via student loans..and thats a very important cultural point

personally i do think student should be independent of parents but on the other hand i don't think the average 18 year old can conceptualises the debt they could be getting into

in Australia they recon it has made people postpone buying a home and having children.

my eldest daughter dropped out of college after one year and then worked for eighteen moths..Then went to the UK to go to college..when she was working she spent a lot of money ...then when she was a student in the UK she was living on fresh air ..i was paying for her accommodation and helping her a bit....having to live on nothing did her the world of good its made her very sensible with money ....

still have my reservation about students loans to 18 year olds

stovelid

mariaalice wrote: »

still have my reservation about students loans to 18 year olds

Could be a good thing insofar as it dissuades young students from diving straight into college after school, and working or experiencing life for a while.

phasers

stovelid wrote: »

Could be a good thing insofar as it dissuades young students from diving straight into college after school, and working or experiencing life for a while.

Not exactly easy to do at the minute though is it?

i don't think anyone can sit and bitch about it.. it's there as an option to take the loan.

stovelid

phasers wrote: »

Not exactly easy to do at the minute though is it?

I've got a wall that needs painting here.

I can only offer a pittance, but you should be glad to be working/pulling yourself up by your bootstraps instead of squandering my hard-earned taxes.

SaturnV

bleg wrote: »

On top of this is the cost of living which are still way higher in Ireland than in the UK. There are also better prospects, better educational facilities, better universities and better job prospects. If the fees were to come in anybody with their head screwed on wouldn't go to an Irish university.

Leaving aside the points about job prospects and cost of living, saying the UK has better universities is a bit misleading. Yes, their best are better than our best, but their worst are much, much worse. I've experience working in both systems, and I'd say the Irish universities are better than 65 - 70% of those in the UK. We've done reasonable well here with scant resources.

bleg

i agree, 17, 18, 19 is too young, in fact ireland has one of the youngest, if not the youngest age of exit from second level education.

sunnyside

bleg wrote: »

i agree, 17, 18, 19 is too young, in fact ireland has one of the youngest, if not the youngest age of exit from second level education.

Which people who plan on going on to third level are ok with because they will be staying in education for a few more years. How long exactly do people on here expect the parents to provide?

TheZohanS

sunnyside wrote: »

How long exactly do people on here expect the parents to provide?

As long as it takes. If you decide to have children you should be able to provide for them.

The tax payer has enough to deal with.

bleg

my point is that it is not fair to compare ireland to other countries where the age of entering college is higher and people generally have a better idea of what they want to do and can therefore effectively judge whether getting out a loan to go to university is a viable option for them.

can a 17 year old even get out a loan legally?

Naikon

The increasing price to pay for your degree should be
inversely proportional to the usefulness of that said degree.

For example, Religious studies students should pay the absolute
maximum fee, whereas Medical students should pay the minimum.
Also, means testing should be used more effectively.

25000 a year for arts students would keep the numbers
down from around 400 students a year, to about 50

Wompa1

I'd just raise the fee's and introduce a loan system to try and help. I don't think people having a heavy debt after college is good but maybe having some debt wouldn't be a bad thing if it got people to try and actually use their degree or get a job in the country instead of emigrating or travelling the world (current economic climate may hinder that anyway though!)

stovelid

bleg wrote: »

My college account says 25595 was the cost of my 4 year programme (Pharmacy). That's roughly 6400 per year. The registration fee has been increased to 1500 this year so if students had to pay the fees it would be 7000 per year. On top of this is the cost of living which are still way higher in Ireland than in the UK. There are also better prospects, better educational facilities, better universities and better job prospects. If the fees were to come in anybody with their head screwed on wouldn't go to an Irish university.

This is an outrage, to be honest.

It's well documented that even dustbin men make more than pharmacists. How the hell would you manage to pay back 25k over 40-50+ years?

Enough to make you storm the winter palace. When will this country stop hitting the little man?