An Irish School for Gaeltacht Children

uriah

pog it wrote: »

Nior bheadh mé in ann suigh agus féachaint orthu. Chonaic mé na tuistí siúd ar Nuacht TG4 cúpla noiméad ó shin, agus an chuma a bhí orthu! Chuir sé i gcuimhne dom na daoine leis na gold chains, bad teeth, scraggy badly dyed hair, and the smirks on their faces! AHHHH. Poor kids being reared and brought up by these parents, and poor society and good people of Corca Dhuibhne having to put up with them.

And I agree- if any of these parents have been given grants for Irish speaking or anything of the likes, this information has to be looked up and brought to the court and the parents penalised for same.

I hope they are forever shunned in Dingle after this.

This is is a dreadful statement in any language. Commenting on people's appearance and their suitability as parents is not what intelligent debate is about. You do your cause no service. I hadn't realised that people born outside Dingle (or is it An Daingean) were so unwelcome!

And the idea that the Irish Language will benefit by shunning people who fight for what they consider to be their rights -leaves me speechless - i ngach teanga.

I believe the case was settled to the satisfaction of all - does anybody know the details?

Stilla Mellis

Beidh teagasc trí Bhéarla ar fáil go dtí an Teastas Sóisireach agus ansin leanfar ar aghaidh go dtí an Ardteist trí Ghaeilge ach go mbeidh cúnamh ar leith ar fáil trí Bhéarla más gá. "Sruth Béarla i scoil Ghaeltachta.":rolleyes: Cúntóirí agus áiseanna breise le cur ar fáil faoi scéim a dtugtar "Droichead" uirthi. Glanadh costais na dtuismitheoirí.

AlexderFranke

By giving the Gaeltachts homerule in the 20s we would not have this problem. Everybody would know that they enter into the other part of Irekand. The homerule administration could determine effectively:"Irish is our sole official language. Point. Every pupil without sufficient Irish has to attend classes to achieve a sufficient level..." In the autonomous region of (Central) Catalonia they have been making steps towards normalization. That meens that Catalan becomes more and more the sole language used in public life. Of course immigrants from other parts of Spain still speak Spanish to each other. But even on Mallorca everybody who has attended a local school and many immigrants who have been living there since long speak Catalan fluently. In the 20s the Gaeltacht areas were still great and strong enough to be established as homeruled part of Ireland with Irish as the sole official language and with policies for normalization. I suppose that uncoffessable English speakers would have left the Gaeltacht and convinced Irish speakers moved into it. Today such policies would still be possible but more difficult to act upon. The Gaeltacht areas could be given the status of counties of its own with the right to abandon English as official language and in education. So people like those postulating education in English will only have two choices: Leaving or accepting Irish at school.
Go dtaga am mhuintir na Gaeltachta le n-éirí suas! Beir bua agus beannacht, Alex

Stilla Mellis

Oh dear! I've just had a brilliant idea. The greatest oposition to anything being done for the poor people who speak Irish came from the moneyed classes. They have all lost their money now and NAMA is going to take possession of the land and properties they held. Now is the time to establish a new Gaeltacht community on the lines of Rath Cairn, Bóthar Shaw, and Gleann Maghair, etc in every county in Ireland. The Irish Government will own the property the speculators could not pay for. Why not take advantage of our good fortune to advance the resurgence of the Irish-speaking community in Ireland. It will cost very little and the ball is at the Government's foot. They don't have to get the permission of those who blighted the country with placenames such as Cedar Park, River Forest Meadows, and Westminster Downs etc making a little America of the ancient land of Ireland. Thankfully that era is over and the anger of the population at being dispossed again of yet another aspect of their culture, their ancient Gaelic placenames, has made itself felt and new Gaelic names have in recent years appeared on building sites. (Including an amusing one: FE YERRA = Faoi dheireadh)

TnaGael

Regarding last weeks letter in The Kerryman ‘Don’t ram Irish down our throats’, cheap insulting tabloid headlines are no new feature of the Concerned Parents campaign. The ‘love of Irish’ and brand of bilingualism displayed at a public meeting in late 2007 with heckles and shouts of ‘NO IRISH’, showed us all where these concerned parents stood.
The rest of us concerned parents warmly welcome the universal acceptance last week of the right of Gaeltacht parents and their children to receive an all-Irish education within the Gaeltacht.
De réir a chéile a tógtar na caisleáin.

conchubhar1

why did you move into the gaeltacht if you do not wish to use irish?

Stilla Mellis

I think you may have misread TnaGael's message, Conchubhar1. He is deploring the attitude of some of those parents who were involved and did not want Irish at all. He is not of that camp and wants the Gaeltacht children to have education through Irish and looks forward to being able to join with them sometime in the future while needing to use English for the moment. I understand "diaidh ar ndiaidh a thógtar na caisleáin" and agree with it.

Unfortunately one would think speaking Irish or English is only a small thing but history is made up of records of disastrous results brought about by an inability to compromise. In my view Gaeltacht people always have compromised to the extent of abandoning their language altogether and forgetting it. In this case it seems the English only group will have to compromise as well.

Today I think is Srebrenitza day (I can't spell it) commemorating the massacre of 8,000 men, women, and children by one of the warring groups in the Balkans. What was that about?

Those of us living far from Kerry know nothing of the development of this particular spat. I would love to hear about it if anyone knows how it came as far as the courts. Will other schools be affected? They all have students who "can't learn the Irish" even though in some cases they and their families have lived in the Gaeltacht long enough to be indistinguishable from the locals. In my experience there are people in the Gaeltacht who keep on fending off the language and shutting Irish speakers up by constantly saying "I don't have Irish." They have no intention of giving themselves the slightest chance of learning it and go out of their way to avoid it. Their choice, I suppose.

Unfortunately Irish speakers are few. If monoglot English speakers behaved like that in France or any other European country they wouldn't have anything to smirk about. They would come up against a brick wall. They would hear so much of the European language and no English that they would have to learn it. Two can play that game.

My own experience of that is that the slightest effort to speak a European language is warmly rewarded with friendship and hospitality and as much English as the other person can muster to help you along. Show contempt for their language and you are bunched, goosed, kaput. Us Irish? We're not like that. We're -- nice.

With the dramatic change in the socio-economic status of the Irish speakers in the last 50 years it may no longer be possible to put them down so easily. Good for them. And good for us and the future of the Gaeilge.

conchubhar1

that was directed an anybody - that was a general angry comment

Stilla Mellis

Tuigim, a Chonchubhair. I misunderstood.

The problem is that the economic stagnation period from the 20s to the 60s caused a huge number of Irish-speaking Gaeltacht people to emigrate to England and America. They settled there and married. They reared their children through English in order to cope with the society in which they lived. When their children were in their twenties or thirties the letter came saying "Tá Deaide tinn. Tagaigí abhaile."

Naturally, faced with the opportunity of abandoning the upstairs rented apartment in the noisy dusty exhaust-fume-ridden Bronx and returning to live in a spacious bungalow on fifty acres of land in Donegal, Mayo, Galway, Kerry, or Cork is hugely attractive. While it may have been difficult to persuade the partner to move not to mention those of the children who were still dependent the choice is made and an English-speaking family albeit with ancestral roots in the Gaeltacht come home to live.

Can they be criticised or blamed for seeking education through English -- at least for their teenage boys and girls. This is just one of the ways the Gaeltacht is being weakened every day.

I am in favour of Irish. Labhraím Gaeilge gach uile lá.

Imaginative steps are needed to get new Irish-speakers, new Irish-speaking families, and new Irish-speaking communities. Preferably in less disadvantaged areas than the present Gaeltacht. Just as Rath Cairn is an offshoot of Ros an Mhíl so each Gaeltacht area could have favourable access to such schemes in a more prosperous part of the country. Give the Gaeltacht a chance without the constant threat of grinding poverty through the impossibility of making a living from their existing area. Without compulsion or discrimination.

Does anyone remember "Brú na Mí" or "Brugh na Mídhe" as it was in my time? There should be one in every county in Ireland: a residential centre devoted solely to the teaching of Irish. Total immersion. Like the "Ulpanim". An modh díreach. With all the vacant hotels now available "at realistic rates" there should be ample opportunity to establish such courses. Provided the "Wink, wink, take the money and don't bother your head about the objectives" type of educators can be kept out of it. Orange jumpsuits and chains for them.

Our next-door neighbours, the British, spend inordinate amounts of money on the British Council, supporting the teaching of English in countries all over the world, on the Stratford on Avon theatre, the National Ballet, Opera, and the Arts, -- proud of their culture -- not to mention the amount of money they spend on sending their heavily armed young men and women abroad in droves to attack and kill their supposed enemies, -- proud of their armies -- why can't we be proud of the purely cultural ambitious national venture we have embarked upon in studying and learning and using again the Irish language. Our own language. It is ours. We are the curators of this language. Much has already been achieved. Don't listen to people who say "The revival has failed." They are admitting their own failure. It is our watch now and our responsibility. Why can't we determine to pass it on in a stronger state than it ever was before. Seo linn, a chairde, tugaimis faoi! Éirígí.

AlexderFranke

I think the key if language shift happens or not is self-confidence of its speakers and the image of the language. If the new language has a bad image, few people will give it up. Self-confident spealers will show hostility towards misrespectful strangers and fight together to achieve homerule rights. In Catalonia, Spanish had the image of despotism and Catalan the image of progress and democracy. So in the underground it continued to be living despite of forbiddings. After the death of Franco this caused strict policies to abandon Spanish in Central Catalonia and effects more and more Catalan areas towards the Catalan-Spanish language border. In Ireland English could have gained the image of barbary at some people after the Great Famine and great hostility towards people without respect to Irish. In this case monoglottal Irish speakers would have learnt English in order to communicate with English-only speaking Lords or employers, but never passed it on to children. So this could have caused throwing English as native language to the rubbish of the history. But in the case of Ireland most Irish speakers had not enough self-confidemce to give English a bad image. In the Gaeltacht it would be understandable if Irish speakers show people with disrespect towards Irish that they are not welcome. This could for example happen by not accepting English-only speakers in clubs or parties. In France, for example, you will not be accepted by most locals without efforts to speak French.
I think that the Gaelic League had not been without success. For it has created the image of Irish as being a sign of good education and patriotism within parts of the urban educated population. Without the Gaelic League, Irish would probably have died out nearly completely. At least it has brought back a bit of Irish to areas where it had died out completely.
Mar sin, is féidir a bheith buíoch as cur ar bon Chonradh na Gaeilge. Mar gheall ar sin, níl oidhreacht na hÉireann agus a nasc leis na sean-amanna caillte go hiomlán. Gan é, ní bheadh ann ach Sasanaigh iarthair!
Beannacht, Alex

Stilla Mellis

Some interesting points there, Alexderfrank. In Ireland there are still other language divisions based on accent and social class.

The old Anglo-Irish maintained an accent that was/is more English than the English themselves. Aloof.

Then there are various other easily discernible accents: the Dublin, the Traveller, the Cork etc. To make things even more complex each of those has two forms: the "posh" or "proper"; and the "common" or "ordinary".

Really, dough, like, yeh know: dere's only one person who speaks both English and Irish really well without the trace of an accent, me! And Bertie.:D

conchubhar1

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0708/1224250237470.html

The 12 children include four Irish while the remainder are British, American, German, Russian, French, Swiss and Estonian nationals. It is claimed, as a result of the alleged all-Irish policy, an unfair burden is being placed upon the children at a critical time in their education.

right so four parents out of how many?

this is not about language shift - this is about people shifting into an area and the irish being too kind to ask them to not move into a ****ing gaeltacht if you do not speak or want to speak irish
move 10 miles east or north and you are grand - there is a mostly english speaking area ffs

AlexderFranke

This is the point! In Central Catalonia the people are friendly if you make efforts to speak Catalan. But if you insist that you are in Spain and therefore Spanish is enough, some people become rude. On Mallorca strangers who are only living there because of the good weather or jobs, but do not respect the local culture, are not popular except their money. But if you speak Catalan, you are not really a stranger for them. Of course hostility ought not result in violence either. The worst thing is if locals do not respect their own culture any moree as is the case in many areas of Germany. This is a sign of decline and results in people feeling like strangers in the own country.
I have heard that the Dublin accent has resulted in a new Dublin accent of Irish which other Irish speakers often do not like. I have noticed certain groups of Irish speakers, which I would in general distinguish as follows: Gaeltacht, Dublin, Northern Ireland and the rest of Ireland.
Is fearr liom Gaeilge timpeall na Gaillimhe. Uaireanta, bíonn cainteoirí Dhún na nGall deacair le a thuiscint.
Le deá-mhéin, Alex

TnaGael

Is iomaí rud a chuireadh i mo leith ach b’shin ceann nua dom a Chonchubhair, léigh aríst é maith fear.

Tuismitheoirí na Gaeltachta have requested a meeting with the Bord of Management and are due to meet them later this week. We are seeking clarification of the Droichead programme and more importantly, what steps the Pobalscoil will take to ensure the roll out and maintainence of the all-Irish education policy, from language of tuition to language of communication and what linguestic targets the Pobalscoil hopes to achieve with the school community next year and over the next 5 years.
The agreement will be read in the High Court Friday, as Gaeilge agus as Béarla.
Tóg bog é.

TnaGael

Conchubhar1 a chara, just read Stilla Mellis and your reply. All clear now. Incidently some of the leaders of the campaign against the Pobalscoil are local and these issues are more to do with their own baggage than anything else I suspect.
The Gaeltachts have been in decline since the Great Famine and with it, the increase in a particular mindset. I believe as a nation we cherish our national language and attatch huge importance to it but subconsciously not as our primary language. It's when she's pushed to the fore people become unbalanced, remember all the hú-há about the cost of TG4 when it started, the Official Langauges act, etc etc,

tóg bog é

pog it

uriah wrote: »

This is is a dreadful statement in any language. Commenting on people's appearance and their suitability as parents is not what intelligent debate is about. You do your cause no service. I hadn't realised that people born outside Dingle (or is it An Daingean) were so unwelcome!

And the idea that the Irish Language will benefit by shunning people who fight for what they consider to be their rights -leaves me speechless - i ngach teanga.

I believe the case was settled to the satisfaction of all - does anybody know the details?

I'll stand by that statement until the day that I die. It's true- the parents I saw looked like the kind you usually see coming out of the courts!
And I was thinking afterwards- those kids won't see anything wrong with their parent's actions because they'll grow up to be exactly like them. I really have to ask. Why did they MOVE into this Gaeltacht if they won't respect the language? And reading TnaGael's information above about these SAME parents shouting 'No Irish' etc. at meetings doesn't surprise me. These people do not understand the definition of respect. They think they can come in and lord their wants over the majority's.

They disgust me and I thank God for good parents who brought me up well and taught me respect those and that which should be respected.

And don't screw around and twist my language and tell me that said that the Irish language would benefit from shunning these people. That isn't what I said. So please go back over it and read it again. I PLAINLY said I hope they are shunned. I do. And they will no doubt be.

Tell me, how do these people communicate in the shop, in the doctor's, in the supermarket, in the pub? ENGLISH. It penetrates all through Dingle.

I don't want their likes in this country.

pog it

Stilla Mellis wrote: »

I think you may have misread TnaGael's message, Conchubhar1. He is deploring the attitude of some of those parents who were involved and did not want Irish at all. He is not of that camp and wants the Gaeltacht children to have education through Irish and looks forward to being able to join with them sometime in the future while needing to use English for the moment. I understand "diaidh ar ndiaidh a thógtar na caisleáin" and agree with it.

Unfortunately one would think speaking Irish or English is only a small thing but history is made up of records of disastrous results brought about by an inability to compromise. In my view Gaeltacht people always have compromised to the extent of abandoning their language altogether and forgetting it. In this case it seems the English only group will have to compromise as well.

Today I think is Srebrenitza day (I can't spell it) commemorating the massacre of 8,000 men, women, and children by one of the warring groups in the Balkans. What was that about?

Those of us living far from Kerry know nothing of the development of this particular spat. I would love to hear about it if anyone knows how it came as far as the courts. Will other schools be affected? They all have students who "can't learn the Irish" even though in some cases they and their families have lived in the Gaeltacht long enough to be indistinguishable from the locals. In my experience there are people in the Gaeltacht who keep on fending off the language and shutting Irish speakers up by constantly saying "I don't have Irish." They have no intention of giving themselves the slightest chance of learning it and go out of their way to avoid it. Their choice, I suppose.

Unfortunately Irish speakers are few. If monoglot English speakers behaved like that in France or any other European country they wouldn't have anything to smirk about. They would come up against a brick wall. They would hear so much of the European language and no English that they would have to learn it. Two can play that game.

My own experience of that is that the slightest effort to speak a European language is warmly rewarded with friendship and hospitality and as much English as the other person can muster to help you along. Show contempt for their language and you are bunched, goosed, kaput. Us Irish? We're not like that. We're -- nice.

With the dramatic change in the socio-economic status of the Irish speakers in the last 50 years it may no longer be possible to put them down so easily. Good for them. And good for us and the future of the Gaeilge.

Well said a chara. Go raibh maith agat.

pog it

Wow.

8 of the 12 parents who did this are foreign. Estonians, Russians. etc.

conchubhar1

well 4 are irish - are those four from kerry?

4 out of how many other parents? fairness, equality and democracy at work here no doubt

conchubhar1

well 4 are irish - are those four from kerry?

4 out of how many other parents? fairness, equality and democracy at work here no doubt

pog it

I have to say all through the celtic tiger years I was friendly to these foreigners and had no ill feeling towards them. I regret encouraging them to any degree now.

Stilla Mellis

Rud maith atá ag teacht aníos i ngeall ar ionradh na n-eachtrannach le deich mbliana anuas ná go gcaithfidh Éireannaigh aghaidh a thabhairt ar a bhfuil i gceist acu féin le "Gaeltacht". Dá gcuirfidis chuige d'fhéadfaí an-chuid scéimeanna a chur ar siúl taobh istigh de theorannacha na Gaeltachta a rachadh chun leasa na teanga.

Cineál baraiméadar ar neart na Gaeltachta is ea gearáin na n-eachtrannach.

conchubhar1

i do not blame the foreigners

who the **** let them in - when they were obviously not using irish or didnt have the use of irish as their top priority

those four ''irish'' parents are out and out .....

TnaGael

Regarding foreigners in the West Kerry Gaeltacht, some are níos Gaelaí ná na Gael iad féin. I know particular individuals from France, Danmark, America, Germany and England who have learnt Irish since moving here, and some of these were prepared to testify on behalf of the Pobalscoil.

Tóg bog é

pog it

TnaGael wrote: »

Regarding foreigners in the West Kerry Gaeltacht, some are níos Gaelaí ná na Gael iad féin. I know particular individuals from France, Danmark, America, Germany and England who have learnt Irish since moving here, and some of these were prepared to testify on behalf of the Pobalscoil.

Tóg bog é

Sin iontach a chloisteáil ach ar an drochuair agus chomh fada liomsa de tá an damáiste déanta ag an cuid bheag acu agus mar sin tá an phéint tirim ar na ballaí.

conchubhar1

yes there are a few - but dingle didnt become an english speaking town by anyone being more irish than anyone

i blame the people who let anyone live there that does not speak irish - no matter where they are from - full stop

pog it

conchubhar1 wrote: »

yes there are a few - but dingle didnt become an english speaking town by anyone being more irish than anyone

i blame the people who let anyone live there that does not speak irish - no matter where they are from - full stop

That would be a dictatorship- telling people they can't live in an area because they don't speak Irish- the same people could point to people already living in the area who speak English on a daily basis so you'd just up in the courts every week! They did place conditions on living in newly built estates in the Gaeltacht to my knowledge anyway (I don't know the full extent of this story), but apparently the tests were way too basic and it turned into a farce.

What would be more useful would be lifting the obstacles which prevent native people from building on their own land, in their own parishes.

Also, screening businesses in the Gaeltacht would be much more useful. As in impose heavy restrictions on the employers. I live in Spiddal and unbelievably a businessman opened new premises (he owns two businesses of the walk in kind) and he has employed foreign people who do not have a word of Irish. Who are not tryng too hard to learn! I spoke with this dude and he's not even from the Gaeltacht.

Same with Supermacs right in the heart of Spiddal. Menu yeah is in Irish, but the waiters can't speak Irish. Same with the petrol station- only half of the workers speak Irish!

I'd say the older generation who genuinely don't have any English must stick to the one or two same places where they can actually be served in Irish.

We need a law that says if we want to be served in a Gaeltacht or Breac Gaeltacht in Irish we are legally entitled to it.

It seems that as soon as a Gaeltacht area turns into a thriving village as opposed to a ceantar, Irish is F*****.

I'm killing myself learning Irish and I used to have ideals about the survival of Irish. Sadly (but I'll still do my best) Irish is in big big trouble.

Stilla Mellis

I have visited the Gaeltacht many times. In some of them I have failed to find even one person to speak Irish to. That's not to say there are no native Irish speakers. There are. They won't speak in public however. You have to know them to hear them. Unfortunately for Irish there is no obligation on sellers of farms, houses, or businesses to ask if the buyer speaks Irish. Once s/he has the euros in her/his fist the sale goes through.

I have often thought that the "meet & greet" idea would be a good one in the Gaeltacht. If you're visiting the Gaeltacht and want to meet the locals be at St Patrick's Hall at 11.00 am. There'll be tae agus suí caidrimh and a short talk as Gaeilge chun fáilte a chur roimh cuairteoirí le Gaeilge.

The ideal would be to have a Clúid Ghaelach in every town in Ireland where everyone spoke Irish and where the naíonra held court in the mornings and the After-school Club played in the afternoons and the adults polished up their Irish in the evenings; it would have a cafeteria and an Irish-language bookshop: just like the Alliance Francaise or the British Council. Anois nuair atá dide na ndeontas tirim beidh ar Ghaeilgeoirí tosú ag smaoineamh ar bhealaí leis an nGaeilge a chur chun cinn iad féin.

conchubhar1

it would not be a dictatorship

the gaeltachtaí are small - move elsewhere its not that bleedin hard

pog it

conchubhar1 wrote: »

it would not be a dictatorship

the gaeltachtaí are small - move elsewhere its not that bleedin hard

How do you think you can stop someone from living in an area- even a Gaeltacht