An Irish School for Gaeltacht Children

takeapunt

An Irish School for Gaeltacht Children

Is education through Irish not a basic civil right for children in our Gaeltachts? If not civil then surely constitutional?

Parents in the West Kerry Gaeltacht are facing the prospect of losing their only Irish post-primary school with little hope of accessing an education for their children in their native language within Kerry.

In spite of a unanimous decision in January 2006 by parents, trustees, teachers and outgoing principals to reaffirm Irish as the language of the new Pobalscoil, a group of 12 children (through their parents) are seeking to overturn Pobalscoil Chorca Dhuibhne’s Irish language policy in the High Court on July 7, 2009. Four of these children are no longer in the school.

If successful, the Pobalscoil would have to offer all subjects in both Irish and English, difficult in the current economic climate.

Irish streams work in English language schools because Irish is no threat to English. Introducing an English stream in a Gaeltacht school would flood it overnight leaving the West Kerry Gaeltacht with no public secondary school through Irish.

The closest English option is 14 miles from Pobalscoil Chorca Dhuibhne, while the closest Irish option is 30 miles away in Tralee, and is currently full.

Tuismitheoirí na Gaeltachta are not opposed to the decision by parents to opt for an education through English, but not at the expense of our children being educated through Irish.

conchubhar1

what do we expect aslong as fianna fáil are in power - and fine gael would be worse imo

it is a damn shame - we dont even have a newspaper anymore

pog it

I really hope this small minority of parents change their minds, but that are the chances if they are the kinds of people who could take this case in the first place? Shame on them. Shame on them. If they get their way, what hope for a campaign of 'meanscoileanna' -the second level equivalent of gaelscoileanna, all subjects taught through Irish- do we have in the long run?

I may get resentment for saying this but I don't care. I heard that the names of these parents trying to bring this about were published in Foinse so I had to look, and what struck me was the presence of foreign names, English names, - hardly any Irish language surnames. Is this really the case? These people coming from the outside into the Gaeltacht and trying to get their way on this issue? Despite their being a minority and coming to live inside the heart of the Gaeltacht? Why did they go to live in the Gaeltacht so? They should respect the place and if the majority want everything taught through Irish, well to hell with them.

we'llallhavetea_old

As soon as i read the op post, i knew the names on the list were goin to be non-nationals. Disgraceful. Totally agree with pog it.

byhookorbycrook

Dingle itself, is not really a Gaeltacht, lots of people speak Irish but it would be more "breac" to me,than full Gaeltacht.I agree however that the minority should not rule in this case.

conchubhar1

i heard less irish in dingle than i heard in dublin

its even called dingle - and all the people i met knew all to well that i and any people i was with knew irish and heard us using it so it wasnt a friendly thing

they genuinely didnt use it - i heard irish by us and people from further west coming into dingle for the night out

pog it

Yes and it's precisely because of (of course not entirely ) these kinds of people that Dingle is very much a breac Gaeltacht. You can (kinda) compare it to Spiddal and Connemara- in Spiddal they may as well have a funeral for Irish as the main language- but go away from there, and you do get into the heartland of the Gaeltacht. It's much the same in Dingle. Go away from there and you'll find plenty of Irish.

What do ye think of what these parents are attempting?

Mylesnanasal

I think they are attempting to convert the school to one where english is the primary language of the school with the cupla focal to keep the native community happy. There seems to be a lot of disrespect and resentment involved

Stilla Mellis

Tá siad os comhair na cúirte inniu. If they get their way and get an English-medium stream established in this Gaeltacht school will that mean that all other schools in the Gaeltacht must do likewise. Will English-medium schools in the rest of the country have to introduce Irish-medium classes? That might improve the teaching of Irish.

Grudaire

Stilla Mellis wrote: »

Tá siad os comhair na cúirte inniu. If they get their way and get an English-medium stream established in this Gaeltacht school will that mean that all other schools in the Gaeltacht must do likewise. Will English-medium schools in the rest of the country have to introduce Irish-medium classes? That might improve the teaching of Irish.

Cathain an bhfuil toradh an cáis cúirte amach?

Micilin Muc

Níor thosaigh an cás go dtí inniu!

pog it

Stilla Mellis wrote: »

Tá siad os comhair na cúirte inniu. If they get their way and get an English-medium stream established in this Gaeltacht school will that mean that all other schools in the Gaeltacht must do likewise. Will English-medium schools in the rest of the country have to introduce Irish-medium classes? That might improve the teaching of Irish.

Bheadh sin iontach go deo,sruth Gaeilge fiú sna ranganna Gaeilge!! Ach beidh muid ag fanacht Níl an cinéal dearcadh sin ag ár Aire-an-Lae Batt O'Keefe!
Ah. 2009. Iontach brónach i leith na Gaeilge go dtí seo.

conchubhar1

it is strange

irish is growing and weakening at the same time......

Stilla Mellis

For hundreds of years there has been a language shift going on in Ireland. Silently. No TV cameras, no protests, no court cases. Village by village and townland by townland Irish was abandoned and English took over and reigned supreme. It was done by force. Subtle social and psychological force. By ignoring Irish all Irish Governments whether based in London or the Pale tacitly declared English the only working language for their officials. The Irish-speaking family was made to feel odd, out of place, backward, not willing to "go with the flow" when they were unwilling to allow their former national culture, their former community culture, and their own family culture to be extinguished in its most important aspect, their language, the Irish language, an Ghaeilge bhinn cheolmhar, an teanga ab ansa lena gcroí.

Not any more.

Here's a village that takes the Irish Ireland movement at its word, that honours the Irish Constitution, Bunreacht na hÉireann, that recognises the import of the Official Languages Act 2002, and attempts to live up to the fine sentiments expressed when the Irish State sought recognition for Irish as an Official Working Language from the other states of the European Union.

Here's a village that has shouted "Stop" or more likely "Stadaigí" in Irish. The Irish-speaking Gaeltacht community of this west Kerry town are unwilling to participate in the "mugadh magadh" or "nudge, nudge, wink, wink, take the money and to hell with the Irish." They are making a stand.

This courtcase will go down in history. It is a breath of fresh air into the murky world of the promotion of Irish where public officials get paid extra for doing their work through the medium of Irish and don't. Can't. Shouldn't be in the job. Their cúpla focal obeisance to the language is sufficient to alert the Irish native speakers that they would be better off switching to English. Their dumb silent hostility when faced with someone who genuinely wants to use their own language is painful for both sides.

This court case may shed light on many "Irish solutions" to this issue of the status of Irish -- not just in Europe, or in the whole of Ireland, but in the fíor-Ghaeltacht, where the English-speaking "Pretend to speak Irish for grants" residents are going to be caught out and the "Take the money and say nothing" officials are going to face charges of fraud.

I look forward with great interest to the progress and outcome of this case. What's the betting it is settled quietly in a backroom with a confidentiality clause binding all to silence.

Question: Who is financing the parents opposed to their children being taught through Irish in the Gaeltacht?

Stilla Mellis

Smaoineamh: Éinne a bhfuil suim acu sa chás seo d'fhéadfaidis suí i measc an lucht éisteachta sa chúirt. Lán-chead acu. Beidh sé ar siúl sna Ceithre Cúirteanna i mBaile Átha Cliath go ceann míosa. Tá an dá theanga in úsáid, an Ghaeilge agus an Béarla. Táim féin ag dul isteach inniu. Ba cheart go mbeadh slua mór de lucht na Gaeilge ann chun tacaíocht a thabhairt do mhuintir na Gaeltachta. Is annamh a fhaighimid an seans.

corcadorcha

Stilla Mellis wrote: »

Tá siad os comhair na cúirte inniu. If they get their way and get an English-medium stream established in this Gaeltacht school will that mean that all other schools in the Gaeltacht must do likewise. Will English-medium schools in the rest of the country have to introduce Irish-medium classes? That might improve the teaching of Irish.

The opposite could also be the case. ie. that it may mean that education through the medium of Irish must also be supplied in all other towns in Ireland if there is any demand for it! Le Cunamh Dé!

conchubhar1

that is the case via the gaelscoileanna

pog it

Nior bheadh mé in ann suigh agus féachaint orthu. Chonaic mé na tuistí siúd ar Nuacht TG4 cúpla noiméad ó shin, agus an chuma a bhí orthu! Chuir sé i gcuimhne dom na daoine leis na gold chains, bad teeth, scraggy badly dyed hair, and the smirks on their faces! AHHHH. Poor kids being reared and brought up by these parents, and poor society and good people of Corca Dhuibhne having to put up with them.

And I agree- if any of these parents have been given grants for Irish speaking or anything of the likes, this information has to be looked up and brought to the court and the parents penalised for same.

I hope they are forever shunned in Dingle after this.

pog it

Céard i an nuacht is deireanaí faoin gcás seo? Tá mé tar éis an tuairisc a chailleadh ar Nuacht TG4. Ag an deireadh dúirt an chomhfhreagaí go bhfuil siad ag súil le cinneadh go luath?

Micilin Muc

pog it wrote: »

Céard é an nuacht is deireanaí faoin gcás seo? Tá mé tar éis an tuairisc a chailleadh ar Nuacht TG4. Ag an deireadh dúirt an chomhfhreagaí go bhfuil siad ag súil le cinneadh go luath?

sea, anocht nó ar maidin. Is cosúil go mbeidh cead ag mic léinn clár Béarla nó clár Gaeilge a dhéanamh.

pog it

Más fíor, níl focal Gaeilge nó Béarla agam.

Stilla Mellis

Cuid mhór de phobal na Gaeltachta is mian leo Béarla a fhoghlaim. Tá náire orthu go bhfuil Gaeilge ó dhúchas acu. Déarfainn go bhfuil an-chuid scoileanna "Gaeltachta" ag múineadh trí Bhéarla cheana féin i ngeall ar easpa múinteoirí cáilithe le Gaeilge, easpa tuisceana ar an nGaeilge ag cuid mhór de na daltaí, agus easpa tola i measc na dtuismitheoirí. Is brónach an scéal é. :mad:

Thuas i D4 agus Foxrock i mBaile Átha Cliath tá a mhalairt fíor. Cainteoirí dúchais a tógadh sa Ghaeltacht ag múineadh clann lucht an rachmais agus an oideachais triú-leibhéil trí Ghaeilge agus scoth na Gaeilge ag idir dhaltaí agus múinteoirí. Tá roth an tsaoil ag casadh ceart go leor.:)

conchubhar1

ach, ''ó mo dhia''? agus ''feicfidh mé amarch ''coo'' ''? ^

AlexderFranke

I am a German learner of Irish. Irish has given Ireland its heritage. It is because of the community of Irish speakers that I have been to Ireland two times by now. Without it, I would never or would never have come to Ireland without the Irish language and traditional music. The minority of Irish speakers give Ireland a bit of the ancient soul. Areas with few Irish spoken are less interesting for me. And you must saveguard the last places where Irish is still the community language of many people. It is like a foreign country within Ireland. Therefore everybody who come to live within a Gaeltacht, must learn Irish or make efforts to improve their Irish in order to show respect to the Irish speakers. By education it must be assured that almost everybody living in the Gaeltacht at least has a good ability in Irish. Therefore education should remain through Irish only in the Gaeltachts. It is to the locals to help strangers with Irish but to show their unwill towards unconfessable English-only speakers. Nobody can force people to speak Irish to each other. But the locals in the Gaeltachts can expect from new citizens there to learn Irish and that some parts of communal life are conducted through Irish only. They are right to avoid social contacts to English-only speakers as I do myself towards foreigners who do not respect us as native people. Otherwise Irish speakers do not have the right to force unwilling people to speak Irish outside the Gaeltacht although I do not consider those as true Irish, but West-English.
They should have refused to deal with the parents' and pupils' matter at Four Courts! They should have advised them to move out of the Gaeltacht. Strangers ought not to do their part to destroy the tiny plant of Irish. Pupil exchanges in favour of learning English should not be allowed within places where strong communities of Irish speakers are existing. There has been a cardinal mistake with regard to Irish. The Gaeltachts should have given homerule after the Irish Free State has been created like Catalonia in Spain. You can see there how successful Catalonia has been setting up zhe restoration of Catalan. Every pupil there has to have sufficient knowledge of Catalan before attending school, strangers from other parts of Spain as well as foreigners. In the Gaeltachts every pupil should have to be fluent enough before attending school. Otherwise they should have to attend preparatory courses in order to improve their Irish. A homerule administration can act upon such a policy the best.
Mar sin féin, tá an dualgas ag na hÉireannaí agus go háirithe ag muintir Ghaeltachta bhur dteanga a shábháil ó dochar an mhuintir in éadan na Gaeilge. Is planta beag bídeach í an Ghaeilge a bhfuil ag teastáil aire agus sábháil chúramach uaithi. Maidir leis an mBéarla, bíonn an mhalairt fíor. Tagann fás agus forbairt uirthi aisti fëin, chomh leor is a thiocfaidh an baol ar na plantaí beaga a n-aer le breith agus a ngá saoil a chailliú.
An Ghaeilge go deo! Alex

Stilla Mellis

Tá an Ghaeltacht amhail féileacán: bain léi agus ní hann di. The Gaeltacht is like a butterfly: touch it and it vanishes. Intergenerational transmission of Irish is very weak in the Gaeltacht now. They'll have lost their knowledge of Irish before they know it. Then they'll hide their loss with the "cúpla focal" and the "blas". Hopefully TV production companies, translation companies, and Acadamh na hOllscolaíochta Gaeilge will have an effect.

As for "Ó mo Dhia" and the other nonsense that kids come up with: that doesn't matter they are in the realm of Irish. If it was "Cor Blimey" and "Strewth m8" they'd be lost to the language. When they grow up and appreciate what they've got and when you and I are no longer around to criticise they'll make their own of Irish and continue with the Athbheochan just as you and I and thousands of others have done. Ar aghaidh linn!:)

AlexderFranke

One thing is clear: The Irish spoken in the Gaeltacht will not be the old local dialects because many children will learn it at nursery and school and not the dialect of their relatives. There Standard Irish will be learnt, also because of the lack of teachers who speak the local dialect. If Irish is not spoken at home does not mean automatically the end of a Gaeltacht. It is likely that many of those children will well use Irish in everyday life when it is assured that every child will learn Irish effectively outside from home. But it will not be the old local dialect. It will remain a regional accent like outside the Gaeltacht since decades. But the difference between Ulster Irish and the rest of Ireland will certainly survive becuase of the regional pride in Northern Ireland.
It is to decided Irish speakers to make social pressure on people in order to push them to talk in Irish to them. Furthermore Irish speakers could boycott shops if the staff is not willing to speak Irish.
It works even outside the Gaeltacht to push those being able to speak Irish to use it if you do your best to behave as a habitual speaker.

Mar sin féin, beidh spreagadh an chaighdeáin i gcaint mhuintir na Gaeltachta dosheachanta. Fanfaidh blas reigiúnda. Beidh seanfhocal sin fíor do mhuintir na Gaeltachta freisin: An té nach gcuireann san fhómhar, ní bhaineann sé san earrach. Beidh ar na Gaeilgeoirí a chogadh ar son féiniúlachta speusualta na nGaeltachtaí.
Le meas, Alex

conchubhar1

ar aghaidh le gaeilge - níl bearla in eádaí gaeilge....

on with irish - not english in irish clothing

uriah

takeapunt wrote: »

An Irish School for Gaeltacht Children

Is education through Irish not a basic civil right for children in our Gaeltachts? If not civil then surely constitutional?

Parents in the West Kerry Gaeltacht are facing the prospect of losing their only Irish post-primary school with little hope of accessing an education for their children in their native language within Kerry.

In spite of a unanimous decision in January 2006 by parents, trustees, teachers and outgoing principals to reaffirm Irish as the language of the new Pobalscoil, a group of 12 children (through their parents) are seeking to overturn Pobalscoil Chorca Dhuibhne’s Irish language policy in the High Court on July 7, 2009. Four of these children are no longer in the school.

If successful, the Pobalscoil would have to offer all subjects in both Irish and English, difficult in the current economic climate.

Irish streams work in English language schools because Irish is no threat to English. Introducing an English stream in a Gaeltacht school would flood it overnight leaving the West Kerry Gaeltacht with no public secondary school through Irish.

The closest English option is 14 miles from Pobalscoil Chorca Dhuibhne, while the closest Irish option is 30 miles away in Tralee, and is currently full.

Tuismitheoirí na Gaeltachta are not opposed to the decision by parents to opt for an education through English, but not at the expense of our children being educated through Irish.

You begin your post as if you are an objective commentator, but in your last sentence you mention 'our' children .

Is there not another side to this? If the vote was unanimous, when did the 12 families change their minds?

Although it quite some time ago, I listened to a discussion on the topic (on radio) and the minority seemed to have a reasonable case. The new school is the result of an amalgamation of two schools, at least one of which accommodated the needs of those who felt they needed some tuition through the medium of English. If it was available prior to amalgamation, why withdraw it?

Surely the native language in An Daingean is not so fragile that it will be wiped out by allowing these children what they need?

Ramming Gaeilge down the necks of others never worked. It turned many of us against the language, some permanently.

Now I love the language, spent last week ar laethanta saoire sa Daingean agus déanaim gach iarracht an teanga a labhairt.

Encouragement, persuasion and tolerance will be far more effective.

conchubhar1

it is a gaeltacht - there is no ramming down anything ffs

mr chips

Saw a report saying that the case has been settled and a statement from the parents saying that their "needs have been met", but no further detail at the moment.
I'm with conchubhar1 - it's a school in a Gaeltacht area for christ's sake and yes, it's a minority language that is becoming increasingly fragile in some of those Gaeltacht areas. In that context, the idea of it being rammed down people's neck's is farcical and pretty much the opposite of what is happening here - ie that English is being rammed down the necks of those who wish to continue operating through Irish. There's the whole rest of the country for people to have their kids educated through English if they want, what's the point of weakening the few places where it is stil spoken as a first language?

Stilla Mellis

There are other issues hanging on this. There are many other Gaeltacht secondary schools in either private ownership (religious orders) or semi-public (VECs) that may or may not have encountered this problem. For decades remote Gaeltacht areas had to do without secondary eduction in any language. Shopkeepers, doctors, and other professionals living in the Gaeltacht and serving the [poor] Gaeltacht community sent their own children to boarding schools outside the Gaeltacht.

Various organisations then began to offer "education" to the people of the Gaeltacht. The Catholic Church representatives mostly subscribed to the "they all know English" view and did their level best to speed up the transition from Irish to English. Máirtín Ó Cadhain's pamphlet gives a good insight into what was going on. Mass in English. Religious doctrine in English. "They'll have to know English when they go to England." There was no employment for them in Ireland never mind the Gaeltacht.

From the 30s to the 50s there were various levels of grants available for secondary schools. A-scoileanna supposedly taught all through Irish and they and their teachers were entitled to enhanced payments. Unfortunately it was easier said than done. It was difficult to get good teachers who could teach through Irish and were willing to live and work in the remote communities that constituted the Gaeltacht. Hence the "teach the kids anyway and say nothing" became current. Some teachers did others couldn't. Few refused the payment. If it became obvious that the school was no longer able to teach "all" subjects through Irish it was graded a B-scoil and so on. This was all pre-Donagh O'Malley.

In the 60s with the introduction of "Free Education" every child was entitled to a secondary education and since education is about developing the child's powers of coping with the world and society the A-scoileanna & B-scoileanna which taught a "sruth lán-Ghaelach" were abandoned throughout the country and presumably also in the Gaeltacht.

In 1972 the new Government relaxed the requirement to pass Irish in order to obtain a Leaving Cert and that weakened the teaching of Irish considerably. It also weakened the resolve of young parents to speak the language to their children. They took the hint from Government. English was compulsory. In any case under the previous 30s to 50s regime only the academically gifted went on to secondary school. Some families sent their children to boarding schools in England in order to avoid having to learn Irish. From the mid-1960s on the full range of abilities came into the secondary schools including special children who were deemed able to cope, slow learners, students of average ability, and the gifted students. All together. Frequently in mixed-ability classes. Streaming and banding were out.

The Gaeltact was not unaffected by this.

In the Galltacht parents who wanted education through Irish for their children began to found their own schools with great success since the families were highly motivated and committed to education. The Gaelscoileanna movement has been the one tangible indicator of the success of the revival of Irish.

Unfortunately in the Gaeltacht Irish did not need reviving. It obviously needed education in the vernacular however because of the historic language shift that may or may not have ceased in our time Gaeltacht parents wanted their children to learn English. In any case the education system made no distinction between Gaeltacht and non-Ghaeltacht. The same courses were prescribed for all -- leaving Gaeltacht children bored stiff by the silly simplicity of the Irish courses and leaving the Galltacht children severely challenged and frustrated by their difficulty.

The foundation of Pobascoil Chorca Dhuibhne has shone a light on all these issues. With the extraordinary improvement in instant communication these days the same light will shine on all other schools in the Gaeltacht and it will be less easy to pretend to teach through Irish. The parents of Árainn Mhór seem to have voted in favour of an English-medium school. Each and every school will have its own particular circumstances. Hopefully whatever solution has been arrived at in PCD will benefit all the Gaeltacht schools.

Those of us with an interest in education through Irish feel it is very difficult to get the Department of Education and Science to take any interest or initiative in its promotion. Irish courses were ridiculed for having no other text than Peig for 50 years. Whose fault was that? Gaelscoileanna are frequently neglected and left in mouldering prefabs for decades. Rules to prevent the foundation of new Gaelscoileanna seem to be in favour.

uriah

pog it wrote: »

Nior bheadh mé in ann suigh agus féachaint orthu. Chonaic mé na tuistí siúd ar Nuacht TG4 cúpla noiméad ó shin, agus an chuma a bhí orthu! Chuir sé i gcuimhne dom na daoine leis na gold chains, bad teeth, scraggy badly dyed hair, and the smirks on their faces! AHHHH. Poor kids being reared and brought up by these parents, and poor society and good people of Corca Dhuibhne having to put up with them.

And I agree- if any of these parents have been given grants for Irish speaking or anything of the likes, this information has to be looked up and brought to the court and the parents penalised for same.

I hope they are forever shunned in Dingle after this.

This is is a dreadful statement in any language. Commenting on people's appearance and their suitability as parents is not what intelligent debate is about. You do your cause no service. I hadn't realised that people born outside Dingle (or is it An Daingean) were so unwelcome!

And the idea that the Irish Language will benefit by shunning people who fight for what they consider to be their rights -leaves me speechless - i ngach teanga.

I believe the case was settled to the satisfaction of all - does anybody know the details?

Stilla Mellis

Beidh teagasc trí Bhéarla ar fáil go dtí an Teastas Sóisireach agus ansin leanfar ar aghaidh go dtí an Ardteist trí Ghaeilge ach go mbeidh cúnamh ar leith ar fáil trí Bhéarla más gá. "Sruth Béarla i scoil Ghaeltachta.":rolleyes: Cúntóirí agus áiseanna breise le cur ar fáil faoi scéim a dtugtar "Droichead" uirthi. Glanadh costais na dtuismitheoirí.

AlexderFranke

By giving the Gaeltachts homerule in the 20s we would not have this problem. Everybody would know that they enter into the other part of Irekand. The homerule administration could determine effectively:"Irish is our sole official language. Point. Every pupil without sufficient Irish has to attend classes to achieve a sufficient level..." In the autonomous region of (Central) Catalonia they have been making steps towards normalization. That meens that Catalan becomes more and more the sole language used in public life. Of course immigrants from other parts of Spain still speak Spanish to each other. But even on Mallorca everybody who has attended a local school and many immigrants who have been living there since long speak Catalan fluently. In the 20s the Gaeltacht areas were still great and strong enough to be established as homeruled part of Ireland with Irish as the sole official language and with policies for normalization. I suppose that uncoffessable English speakers would have left the Gaeltacht and convinced Irish speakers moved into it. Today such policies would still be possible but more difficult to act upon. The Gaeltacht areas could be given the status of counties of its own with the right to abandon English as official language and in education. So people like those postulating education in English will only have two choices: Leaving or accepting Irish at school.
Go dtaga am mhuintir na Gaeltachta le n-éirí suas! Beir bua agus beannacht, Alex

Stilla Mellis

Oh dear! I've just had a brilliant idea. The greatest oposition to anything being done for the poor people who speak Irish came from the moneyed classes. They have all lost their money now and NAMA is going to take possession of the land and properties they held. Now is the time to establish a new Gaeltacht community on the lines of Rath Cairn, Bóthar Shaw, and Gleann Maghair, etc in every county in Ireland. The Irish Government will own the property the speculators could not pay for. Why not take advantage of our good fortune to advance the resurgence of the Irish-speaking community in Ireland. It will cost very little and the ball is at the Government's foot. They don't have to get the permission of those who blighted the country with placenames such as Cedar Park, River Forest Meadows, and Westminster Downs etc making a little America of the ancient land of Ireland. Thankfully that era is over and the anger of the population at being dispossed again of yet another aspect of their culture, their ancient Gaelic placenames, has made itself felt and new Gaelic names have in recent years appeared on building sites. (Including an amusing one: FE YERRA = Faoi dheireadh)

TnaGael

Regarding last weeks letter in The Kerryman ‘Don’t ram Irish down our throats’, cheap insulting tabloid headlines are no new feature of the Concerned Parents campaign. The ‘love of Irish’ and brand of bilingualism displayed at a public meeting in late 2007 with heckles and shouts of ‘NO IRISH’, showed us all where these concerned parents stood.
The rest of us concerned parents warmly welcome the universal acceptance last week of the right of Gaeltacht parents and their children to receive an all-Irish education within the Gaeltacht.
De réir a chéile a tógtar na caisleáin.

conchubhar1

why did you move into the gaeltacht if you do not wish to use irish?

Stilla Mellis

I think you may have misread TnaGael's message, Conchubhar1. He is deploring the attitude of some of those parents who were involved and did not want Irish at all. He is not of that camp and wants the Gaeltacht children to have education through Irish and looks forward to being able to join with them sometime in the future while needing to use English for the moment. I understand "diaidh ar ndiaidh a thógtar na caisleáin" and agree with it.

Unfortunately one would think speaking Irish or English is only a small thing but history is made up of records of disastrous results brought about by an inability to compromise. In my view Gaeltacht people always have compromised to the extent of abandoning their language altogether and forgetting it. In this case it seems the English only group will have to compromise as well.

Today I think is Srebrenitza day (I can't spell it) commemorating the massacre of 8,000 men, women, and children by one of the warring groups in the Balkans. What was that about?

Those of us living far from Kerry know nothing of the development of this particular spat. I would love to hear about it if anyone knows how it came as far as the courts. Will other schools be affected? They all have students who "can't learn the Irish" even though in some cases they and their families have lived in the Gaeltacht long enough to be indistinguishable from the locals. In my experience there are people in the Gaeltacht who keep on fending off the language and shutting Irish speakers up by constantly saying "I don't have Irish." They have no intention of giving themselves the slightest chance of learning it and go out of their way to avoid it. Their choice, I suppose.

Unfortunately Irish speakers are few. If monoglot English speakers behaved like that in France or any other European country they wouldn't have anything to smirk about. They would come up against a brick wall. They would hear so much of the European language and no English that they would have to learn it. Two can play that game.

My own experience of that is that the slightest effort to speak a European language is warmly rewarded with friendship and hospitality and as much English as the other person can muster to help you along. Show contempt for their language and you are bunched, goosed, kaput. Us Irish? We're not like that. We're -- nice.

With the dramatic change in the socio-economic status of the Irish speakers in the last 50 years it may no longer be possible to put them down so easily. Good for them. And good for us and the future of the Gaeilge.

conchubhar1

that was directed an anybody - that was a general angry comment

Stilla Mellis

Tuigim, a Chonchubhair. I misunderstood.

The problem is that the economic stagnation period from the 20s to the 60s caused a huge number of Irish-speaking Gaeltacht people to emigrate to England and America. They settled there and married. They reared their children through English in order to cope with the society in which they lived. When their children were in their twenties or thirties the letter came saying "Tá Deaide tinn. Tagaigí abhaile."

Naturally, faced with the opportunity of abandoning the upstairs rented apartment in the noisy dusty exhaust-fume-ridden Bronx and returning to live in a spacious bungalow on fifty acres of land in Donegal, Mayo, Galway, Kerry, or Cork is hugely attractive. While it may have been difficult to persuade the partner to move not to mention those of the children who were still dependent the choice is made and an English-speaking family albeit with ancestral roots in the Gaeltacht come home to live.

Can they be criticised or blamed for seeking education through English -- at least for their teenage boys and girls. This is just one of the ways the Gaeltacht is being weakened every day.

I am in favour of Irish. Labhraím Gaeilge gach uile lá.

Imaginative steps are needed to get new Irish-speakers, new Irish-speaking families, and new Irish-speaking communities. Preferably in less disadvantaged areas than the present Gaeltacht. Just as Rath Cairn is an offshoot of Ros an Mhíl so each Gaeltacht area could have favourable access to such schemes in a more prosperous part of the country. Give the Gaeltacht a chance without the constant threat of grinding poverty through the impossibility of making a living from their existing area. Without compulsion or discrimination.

Does anyone remember "Brú na Mí" or "Brugh na Mídhe" as it was in my time? There should be one in every county in Ireland: a residential centre devoted solely to the teaching of Irish. Total immersion. Like the "Ulpanim". An modh díreach. With all the vacant hotels now available "at realistic rates" there should be ample opportunity to establish such courses. Provided the "Wink, wink, take the money and don't bother your head about the objectives" type of educators can be kept out of it. Orange jumpsuits and chains for them.

Our next-door neighbours, the British, spend inordinate amounts of money on the British Council, supporting the teaching of English in countries all over the world, on the Stratford on Avon theatre, the National Ballet, Opera, and the Arts, -- proud of their culture -- not to mention the amount of money they spend on sending their heavily armed young men and women abroad in droves to attack and kill their supposed enemies, -- proud of their armies -- why can't we be proud of the purely cultural ambitious national venture we have embarked upon in studying and learning and using again the Irish language. Our own language. It is ours. We are the curators of this language. Much has already been achieved. Don't listen to people who say "The revival has failed." They are admitting their own failure. It is our watch now and our responsibility. Why can't we determine to pass it on in a stronger state than it ever was before. Seo linn, a chairde, tugaimis faoi! Éirígí.

AlexderFranke

I think the key if language shift happens or not is self-confidence of its speakers and the image of the language. If the new language has a bad image, few people will give it up. Self-confident spealers will show hostility towards misrespectful strangers and fight together to achieve homerule rights. In Catalonia, Spanish had the image of despotism and Catalan the image of progress and democracy. So in the underground it continued to be living despite of forbiddings. After the death of Franco this caused strict policies to abandon Spanish in Central Catalonia and effects more and more Catalan areas towards the Catalan-Spanish language border. In Ireland English could have gained the image of barbary at some people after the Great Famine and great hostility towards people without respect to Irish. In this case monoglottal Irish speakers would have learnt English in order to communicate with English-only speaking Lords or employers, but never passed it on to children. So this could have caused throwing English as native language to the rubbish of the history. But in the case of Ireland most Irish speakers had not enough self-confidemce to give English a bad image. In the Gaeltacht it would be understandable if Irish speakers show people with disrespect towards Irish that they are not welcome. This could for example happen by not accepting English-only speakers in clubs or parties. In France, for example, you will not be accepted by most locals without efforts to speak French.
I think that the Gaelic League had not been without success. For it has created the image of Irish as being a sign of good education and patriotism within parts of the urban educated population. Without the Gaelic League, Irish would probably have died out nearly completely. At least it has brought back a bit of Irish to areas where it had died out completely.
Mar sin, is féidir a bheith buíoch as cur ar bon Chonradh na Gaeilge. Mar gheall ar sin, níl oidhreacht na hÉireann agus a nasc leis na sean-amanna caillte go hiomlán. Gan é, ní bheadh ann ach Sasanaigh iarthair!
Beannacht, Alex

Stilla Mellis

Some interesting points there, Alexderfrank. In Ireland there are still other language divisions based on accent and social class.

The old Anglo-Irish maintained an accent that was/is more English than the English themselves. Aloof.

Then there are various other easily discernible accents: the Dublin, the Traveller, the Cork etc. To make things even more complex each of those has two forms: the "posh" or "proper"; and the "common" or "ordinary".

Really, dough, like, yeh know: dere's only one person who speaks both English and Irish really well without the trace of an accent, me! And Bertie.:D

conchubhar1

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0708/1224250237470.html

The 12 children include four Irish while the remainder are British, American, German, Russian, French, Swiss and Estonian nationals. It is claimed, as a result of the alleged all-Irish policy, an unfair burden is being placed upon the children at a critical time in their education.

right so four parents out of how many?

this is not about language shift - this is about people shifting into an area and the irish being too kind to ask them to not move into a ****ing gaeltacht if you do not speak or want to speak irish
move 10 miles east or north and you are grand - there is a mostly english speaking area ffs

AlexderFranke

This is the point! In Central Catalonia the people are friendly if you make efforts to speak Catalan. But if you insist that you are in Spain and therefore Spanish is enough, some people become rude. On Mallorca strangers who are only living there because of the good weather or jobs, but do not respect the local culture, are not popular except their money. But if you speak Catalan, you are not really a stranger for them. Of course hostility ought not result in violence either. The worst thing is if locals do not respect their own culture any moree as is the case in many areas of Germany. This is a sign of decline and results in people feeling like strangers in the own country.
I have heard that the Dublin accent has resulted in a new Dublin accent of Irish which other Irish speakers often do not like. I have noticed certain groups of Irish speakers, which I would in general distinguish as follows: Gaeltacht, Dublin, Northern Ireland and the rest of Ireland.
Is fearr liom Gaeilge timpeall na Gaillimhe. Uaireanta, bíonn cainteoirí Dhún na nGall deacair le a thuiscint.
Le deá-mhéin, Alex

TnaGael

Is iomaí rud a chuireadh i mo leith ach b’shin ceann nua dom a Chonchubhair, léigh aríst é maith fear.

Tuismitheoirí na Gaeltachta have requested a meeting with the Bord of Management and are due to meet them later this week. We are seeking clarification of the Droichead programme and more importantly, what steps the Pobalscoil will take to ensure the roll out and maintainence of the all-Irish education policy, from language of tuition to language of communication and what linguestic targets the Pobalscoil hopes to achieve with the school community next year and over the next 5 years.
The agreement will be read in the High Court Friday, as Gaeilge agus as Béarla.
Tóg bog é.

TnaGael

Conchubhar1 a chara, just read Stilla Mellis and your reply. All clear now. Incidently some of the leaders of the campaign against the Pobalscoil are local and these issues are more to do with their own baggage than anything else I suspect.
The Gaeltachts have been in decline since the Great Famine and with it, the increase in a particular mindset. I believe as a nation we cherish our national language and attatch huge importance to it but subconsciously not as our primary language. It's when she's pushed to the fore people become unbalanced, remember all the hú-há about the cost of TG4 when it started, the Official Langauges act, etc etc,

tóg bog é

pog it

uriah wrote: »

This is is a dreadful statement in any language. Commenting on people's appearance and their suitability as parents is not what intelligent debate is about. You do your cause no service. I hadn't realised that people born outside Dingle (or is it An Daingean) were so unwelcome!

And the idea that the Irish Language will benefit by shunning people who fight for what they consider to be their rights -leaves me speechless - i ngach teanga.

I believe the case was settled to the satisfaction of all - does anybody know the details?

I'll stand by that statement until the day that I die. It's true- the parents I saw looked like the kind you usually see coming out of the courts!
And I was thinking afterwards- those kids won't see anything wrong with their parent's actions because they'll grow up to be exactly like them. I really have to ask. Why did they MOVE into this Gaeltacht if they won't respect the language? And reading TnaGael's information above about these SAME parents shouting 'No Irish' etc. at meetings doesn't surprise me. These people do not understand the definition of respect. They think they can come in and lord their wants over the majority's.

They disgust me and I thank God for good parents who brought me up well and taught me respect those and that which should be respected.

And don't screw around and twist my language and tell me that said that the Irish language would benefit from shunning these people. That isn't what I said. So please go back over it and read it again. I PLAINLY said I hope they are shunned. I do. And they will no doubt be.

Tell me, how do these people communicate in the shop, in the doctor's, in the supermarket, in the pub? ENGLISH. It penetrates all through Dingle.

I don't want their likes in this country.

pog it

Stilla Mellis wrote: »

I think you may have misread TnaGael's message, Conchubhar1. He is deploring the attitude of some of those parents who were involved and did not want Irish at all. He is not of that camp and wants the Gaeltacht children to have education through Irish and looks forward to being able to join with them sometime in the future while needing to use English for the moment. I understand "diaidh ar ndiaidh a thógtar na caisleáin" and agree with it.

Unfortunately one would think speaking Irish or English is only a small thing but history is made up of records of disastrous results brought about by an inability to compromise. In my view Gaeltacht people always have compromised to the extent of abandoning their language altogether and forgetting it. In this case it seems the English only group will have to compromise as well.

Today I think is Srebrenitza day (I can't spell it) commemorating the massacre of 8,000 men, women, and children by one of the warring groups in the Balkans. What was that about?

Those of us living far from Kerry know nothing of the development of this particular spat. I would love to hear about it if anyone knows how it came as far as the courts. Will other schools be affected? They all have students who "can't learn the Irish" even though in some cases they and their families have lived in the Gaeltacht long enough to be indistinguishable from the locals. In my experience there are people in the Gaeltacht who keep on fending off the language and shutting Irish speakers up by constantly saying "I don't have Irish." They have no intention of giving themselves the slightest chance of learning it and go out of their way to avoid it. Their choice, I suppose.

Unfortunately Irish speakers are few. If monoglot English speakers behaved like that in France or any other European country they wouldn't have anything to smirk about. They would come up against a brick wall. They would hear so much of the European language and no English that they would have to learn it. Two can play that game.

My own experience of that is that the slightest effort to speak a European language is warmly rewarded with friendship and hospitality and as much English as the other person can muster to help you along. Show contempt for their language and you are bunched, goosed, kaput. Us Irish? We're not like that. We're -- nice.

With the dramatic change in the socio-economic status of the Irish speakers in the last 50 years it may no longer be possible to put them down so easily. Good for them. And good for us and the future of the Gaeilge.

Well said a chara. Go raibh maith agat.

pog it

Wow.

8 of the 12 parents who did this are foreign. Estonians, Russians. etc.

conchubhar1

well 4 are irish - are those four from kerry?

4 out of how many other parents? fairness, equality and democracy at work here no doubt

conchubhar1

well 4 are irish - are those four from kerry?

4 out of how many other parents? fairness, equality and democracy at work here no doubt