The Rapture

prinz

DTrotter wrote: »

It's the ears isn't it?

:pac:Amongst other things:pac:

No.'Bama strikes me as a self serving schmoozer. Says all the right things to everybody, depending on who he's talking to at the time. The champion of all causes, but an actual active supporter of none. I'm still trying to work out what his concrete stance on anything is, all I've seen him do so far is hedge his bets as the friend of everybody.Bit of a younger, better looking Bertie Just wish he'd come off the suspiciously high-horse-like fence he's on.

robindch

prinz wrote: »

Says all the right things to everybody, depending on who he's talking to at the time. The champion of all causes, but an actual active supporter of none.

Still and all, better a polite man with no opinions than an swaggering oaf with a taste for the military, eh?

Soul Winner

wolfsbane wrote: »

The nature of the Tribulation is indeed crucial to the timing of Christ's coming. If it is the wrath of God, then His coming must be prior to it. If it is the wrath of Satan, then we can expect to go through it before being rescued by Christ.

Can to point to where the Tribulation is described as the wrath of God? It seems to me to be very much the wrath of Satan against God's people:

Well one only needs to read Revelation itself to know that the trouble described therein comes form God not Satan. If it was from Satan then the book would not have opened by saying: "Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near." Of the seven seals which are opened in Revelation 6, only the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the earth was found to be worthy to open them. It is He who is doing the pouring out of wrath not Satan. And it is from this point onwards in the Book that things start getting a bit scary down here. After the seven seals there are seven vials which are poured out by angels of God and likewise the seven trumpets are blown by seven angels of God. It is also during this period that Satan is bound a thousand years and when Christ sets up His millennial Kingdom.

In any case Satan is already at work in the world now planting weeds among the wheat. The spirit of the lawless is already at work but the manifestation of that lawless one cannot be revealed until that which restrains it is taken out of the way. Plus the feast (set time) of Atonement must be fulfilled during this seven year period. Atonement is affliction of soul and Christ has already bore our affliction and we bare His from the world, the flesh and the devil while we are here, we do not bare God's because Christ bore it for us.

We have got grace and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ because we recognize our need of what He did for us and we receive it gladly into our hearts and are therefore viewed from God's point of view as being just like Jesus upon whom God's wrath was poured out once, because once is enough for Him because His blood had the means to pay the price once and for all, just like in the Old Testament they offered the sacrifice once a year, that was a type of Christ offering His life once because His blood is forever adequate, no need to crucify Him afresh every year, once is enough and that is why His body (the Church) cannot be here when it comes time for God’s wrath to be pour out on those who reject the work of Christ.

The ones who come from this time of trouble who are washed in the blood of the Lamb are those who at one time didn't believe but after the Rapture and the prophecies which they see coming to pass which was told them beforehand will caused them too to repent and accept Christ and they will have to pay with their lives for this testimony during this time of wrath and await the number of their brethren to be completed under the altar of God as describe in Revelation 6:9.

The Church is not here any more to preach the Gospel, that will be done by the 144,000 who are sealed and the angel with the eternal gospel of Revelation 14. I'm telling ya this is God's wrath being poured out which the angel described to Daniel when he said: "Seventy 'sevens' (weeks of years) are decreed for your people (the Jew) and your holy city (Jerusalem) to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy." Daniel 9:24.

The set time for the feast of Atonement must be fulfilled just like all the other feast were fulfilled before it. Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Pentecost and Trumpets. Christ fulfilled all these in their proper time and will also fulfill the other ones in their time too. Trumpets is next and that is Rapture

"After this (the age of the Church described in Revelation chapters 2+3) I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven (Christ is the Door). And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet (the second of the two silver trumpets) said, "Come up here (caught away to heaven), and I will show you what must take place after this (Daniel's 70th week decreed on the Jew - Atonement for sin on the earth)." Revelation 4:1

prinz

robindch wrote: »

Still and all, better a polite man with no opinions than an swaggering oaf with a taste for the military, eh?

Yes and no. I am no huge admirer of Bush, but I respected him. Whether I agreed with his policies or disagreed with his policies at least with him I knew exactly what his views on issues were. Obama has done nothing so far to earn my respect for him or his administration, basically because it's hard to pin anything to him. He says one thing, does another, says x in working class Detroit, and y in the suburbs in Connecticut...

Hotspace

wolfsbane wrote: »

If our understanding of the Bible was meant to be perfected in this life, no doubt our prayers for understanding would be answered by a full knowledge. That is not what God has purposed. He could have given us all a complete understanding of His word in the moment of our conversion - but He has chosen to cause us to labour in study and faith, to be dependent on Him for every advance. So too with our progression in holiness. No instant fixes. A war in which there is no discharge.

Yes, I’m impressed that you are meant to labour towards understanding. However, you have spent 2,000 years trying to understand the simplest things. Look at the simple disagreements over Matthew 24 in this thread. Your religion is more fragmented than ever (it spans thousands of denominations). It is undermined – more than ever – by advances in science. More and more you have come to believe in evolution as an answer to origins and have somehow reconciled talking snakes and knowledge giving apples with modern day discoveries in science. Whilst many still reject the science of origins and the age of the earth to favour a recent creation of 6,000 years ago.

No other area of study has laboured 2,000 years and still is in quagmire.

Christianity doesn’t advance according to revealed truth in scriptures; it advances to accommodate a changing society. How do I know this, by just looking. The Christianity of today is not recognisable from the Christianity of yesteryear. Today, you have embraced homosexual bishops. The Christianity of tomorrow will more than likely embrace promiscuity (I give this as a way-out example) and you’ll find biblical scriptures to back this up.

Soul Winner

Hotspace wrote: »

Yes, I’m impressed that you are meant to labour towards understanding. However, you have spent 2,000 years trying to understand the simplest things. Look at the simple disagreements over Matthew 24 in this thread. Your religion is more fragmented than ever (it spans thousands of denominations). It is undermined – more than ever – by advances in science. More and more you have come to believe in evolution as an answer to origins and have somehow reconciled talking snakes and knowledge giving apples with modern day discoveries in science. Whilst many still reject the science of origins and the age of the earth to favour a recent creation of 6,000 years ago.

No other area of study has laboured 2,000 years and still is in quagmire.

Christianity doesn’t advance according to revealed truth in scriptures; it advances to accommodate a changing society. How do I know this, by just looking. The Christianity of today is not recognisable from the Christianity of yesteryear. Today, you have embraced homosexual bishops. The Christianity of tomorrow will more than likely embrace promiscuity (I give this as a way-out example) and you’ll find biblical scriptures to back this up.

Fanny C has already pointed out to you that just because people disagree on the interpretation of something doesn't invalidate the whole thing. Why can you not see this? Even in science there are many differing views on evolution, the big bang, extra terrestrial intelligence and many other things but that doesn't mean that science itself is invalid does it?

Take me and Wolfsbane for instance. We disagree on when the rapture will take place but does that mean that the rapture will not take place? No. If it is going to take place at all then it doesn't even matter if we don't believe in it. And likewise if it is not going to take place it won't be because we disagree on it's timing either. It's either a true thing or its baloney. You saying that it is false because people can't agree on it is just silly.

JimiTime

Hotspace wrote: »

Yes, I’m impressed that you are meant to labour towards understanding. However, you have spent 2,000 years trying to understand the simplest things.

Well mankind are morons. As the very book we argue over tells us; We'll be arguing over the dots over the i's and crosses through the t's. Straining the gnat and gulping the camel. All and all, the christian who is living his faith by Loving God and his neighbour may find theology interesting, but he knows whats important, and it aint straining out gnats.

Christians and non christians alike have been guilty of reducing Christianity to an academic venture. It is so easy to lose sight of what Christianity actually is when one gets so sidetracked with intellectualism and questions about if Adam had a belly button. Christianity is a living faith. Its a lifestyle.

wolfsbane

Soul Winner said:

Well one only needs to read Revelation itself to know that the trouble described therein comes form God not Satan.

What I read is that both God and Satan are involved.

If it was from Satan then the book would not have opened by saying: "Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

It is the prophecy of what God is going to bring to pass. But that does not mean Satan is passive - he goes on an even greater assault on God's people, for he knows his time is short (Rev.12).

Of the seven seals which are opened in Revelation 6, only the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the earth was found to be worthy to open them. It is He who is doing the pouring out of wrath not Satan.

Indeed - but Satan attacks the church while the judgements of God continue. Note what is said after the fifth seal is opened:
Revelation 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

In any case Satan is already at work in the world now planting weeds among the wheat. The spirit of the lawless is already at work but the manifestation of that lawless one cannot be revealed until that which restrains it is taken out of the way.

Agreed.

Plus the feast (set time) of Atonement must be fulfilled during this seven year period. Atonement is affliction of soul and Christ has already bore our affliction and we bare His from the world, the flesh and the devil while we are here, we do not bare God's because Christ bore it for us.

We have got grace and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ because we recognize our need of what He did for us and we receive it gladly into our hearts and are therefore viewed from God's point of view as being just like Jesus upon whom God's wrath was poured out once, because once is enough for Him because His blood had the means to pay the price once and for all, just like in the Old Testament they offered the sacrifice once a year, that was a type of Christ offering His life once because His blood is forever adequate, no need to crucify Him afresh every year, once is enough and that is why His body (the Church) cannot be here when it comes time for God’s wrath to be pour out on those who reject the work of Christ.

The ones who come from this time of trouble who are washed in the blood of the Lamb are those who at one time didn't believe but after the Rapture and the prophecies which they see coming to pass which was told them beforehand will caused them too to repent and accept Christ and they will have to pay with their lives for this testimony during this time of wrath and await the number of their brethren to be completed under the altar of God as describe in Revelation 6:9.

What is the difference between what they suffer under Antichrist and what countless thousands of Christians have suffered under Nero, the popes, or in Marxist, Muslim and Hindu countries today? And why do you say Antichrist's wrath against them is God's wrath???

The Church is not here any more to preach the Gospel,

That is only your assumption. You need proof of it.

that will be done by the 144,000 who are sealed and the angel with the eternal gospel of Revelation 14. I'm telling ya this is God's wrath being poured out which the angel described to Daniel when he said: "Seventy 'sevens' (weeks of years) are decreed for your people (the Jew) and your holy city (Jerusalem) to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy." Daniel 9:24.

Are the Jewish believers not under the New Covenant? Since when has God revoked it? Did Christ not finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy?

The set time for the feast of Atonement must be fulfilled just like all the other feast were fulfilled before it. Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Pentecost and Trumpets. Christ fulfilled all these in their proper time and will also fulfill the other ones in their time too. Trumpets is next and that is Rapture

I'm OK with that.

"After this (the age of the Church described in Revelation chapters 2+3) I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven (Christ is the Door).

An assumption that this speaks of Christ.

And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet (the second of the two silver trumpets)

An assumption that this speaks of the second trumpet.

said, "Come up here (caught away to heaven), and I will show you what must take place after this (Daniel's 70th week decreed on the Jew - Atonement for sin on the earth)." Revelation 4:1

Again, assumption.

The idea of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture was unknown in the Church until the 19th C. It's origins there are also disreputable. And the idea that God has two peoples, two brides - the Church and Israel - is against all the NT says about the New Covenant. When Christ spoke about His sheep, He spoke about the Church composed of Jew and Gentile. He knew no other group that would inherit eternal life.

I think it is foolish to take the symbolic books and figure out the details from them, rather than let the plain narrative guide our understanding of the symbolic. The gospels and the epistles speak clearly of one coming again of Christ - to rescue His people and destroy the wicked, all on the one Day.

So Rapture, YES. But followed by Wrath. Not Wrath for some and blessing for others. The righteous are removed, and wrath falls on the wicked. The symbols cannot be read so that they distort the plain words of Christ and the apostles.

wolfsbane

Hotspace said:

Yes, I’m impressed that you are meant to labour towards understanding. However, you have spent 2,000 years trying to understand the simplest things. Look at the simple disagreements over Matthew 24 in this thread.

Soul Winner said it well, but let me just add: much of what we disagree on is not so simple. The timing of events is problematic. Especially in prophecy there are things that will only become obvious coming to the fulfilment. We can avoid major mistakes by due diligence, but none of us will have all the answers.

Your religion is more fragmented than ever (it spans thousands of denominations).

True Christians are united in Christ, despite their differences. We recognise each other as brothers. The division is not as bad as it seems, for many churches who call themselves Christian are not. If you formed a group of like-minded folk and called yourselves Christian, that would not in reality reflect a division in the Church of Christ.

It is undermined – more than ever – by advances in science. More and more you have come to believe in evolution as an answer to origins and have somehow reconciled talking snakes and knowledge giving apples with modern day discoveries in science. Whilst many still reject the science of origins and the age of the earth to favour a recent creation of 6,000 years ago.

I agree, many have been fooled into trying to reconcile the Truth of God with the follies of Man. They are in error, but still good brethren.

No other area of study has laboured 2,000 years and still is in quagmire.

Christianity is the sum of all truth. It will take until we get to heaven till we suss it all out.

Christianity doesn’t advance according to revealed truth in scriptures; it advances to accommodate a changing society. How do I know this, by just looking. The Christianity of today is not recognisable from the Christianity of yesteryear. Today, you have embraced homosexual bishops. The Christianity of tomorrow will more than likely embrace promiscuity (I give this as a way-out example) and you’ll find biblical scriptures to back this up.

But that which you call Christianity is not the authentic article. Not what you read of in the Bible. I think you are saying as much. That counterfeit movement has indeed left the faith of the apostles and will go much farther from it. It embraces an errant Bible, a non-divine Christ, a separate priesthood, evolution, homosexuality, fornication today - who knows what tomorrow. Eventually, the worship of Antichrist.

Find scriptures to back it up? Yes, attempts are always made to twist the Scriptures:
Matthew 4:5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:


‘ He shall give His angels charge over you,’
and,


‘ In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’”

Fanny Cradock

Hotspace wrote: »

Yes, I’m impressed that you are meant to labour towards understanding. However, you have spent 2,000 years trying to understand the simplest things. Look at the simple disagreements over Matthew 24 in this thread. Your religion is more fragmented than ever (it spans thousands of denominations). It is undermined – more than ever – by advances in science. More and more you have come to believe in evolution as an answer to origins and have somehow reconciled talking snakes and knowledge giving apples with modern day discoveries in science. Whilst many still reject the science of origins and the age of the earth to favour a recent creation of 6,000 years ago.

No other area of study has laboured 2,000 years and still is in quagmire.

Christianity doesn’t advance according to revealed truth in scriptures; it advances to accommodate a changing society. How do I know this, by just looking. The Christianity of today is not recognisable from the Christianity of yesteryear. Today, you have embraced homosexual bishops. The Christianity of tomorrow will more than likely embrace promiscuity (I give this as a way-out example) and you’ll find biblical scriptures to back this up.

Just an observation, but your post reads like an emotional outpouring against something you presumably once held dear.

You speak of Christianity as if it was once a homogenised organisation and it's now - with hyperbolic gravitas - on the brink of collapse under the onslaught of science and reason. We get similar accusations all the time here, but it's always a faith position of the individual rather than a statement of fact. Science (often capitalised by the same people) is cast in the role as the noble, truth seeking enemy of the contradictory and archaic religious faith. And yet the debt science owes to religious faiths like Christianity is rarely acknowledged, while on a personal level those scientists who happily exist in a world of faith and science are conspicuously glossed over or dismissed as oddities. Generally evolution is tossed in there for good measure - like it's the final nail in the coffin - with the premise that those who reject evolution are a figure of fun and those who accept evolution are shifting the goalposts of their faith. Unlike the sciences, for example, where new ides are encouraged and applauded if sound, we are lead to believe that religious understanding is not open to revelation, refinement or correction. Some people demand that the understanding of Christian faith remains unchanging while they simultaneously criticise it for being stagnant. Scroll back up to the quoted post for an example of just such a person.

Anyway, if you think that doctrinal arguments and disagreements over sexual practices are modern day problems facing only modern day Christianity, I suggest that you crack open Corinthians, for example, and see that the same fragmentation and contrary ideas existed in the early church. Paul, like others today, was attempting to address this.

Furthermore, I contend that the doctrinal side-stepping that exists amongst certain individuals and denominations says less about the truth of the Christian message and more about the effects of the society we live in and the inability of some to resist the prevailing thought. After all, any belief based upon moral absolutism (such as Christianity) is bound to get squeezed and twisted in a wider culture based upon moral relativism (Western culture). (Interestingly, and completely off topic, it would be interesting to debate if a society of moral relativists has ever existed and what would be the result of such a society.)

As for Christianity not advancing according to revealed truth, well, that's your opinion. I disagree, though. Maybe it's simply a case of the "truth" that you expected or demanded was never on offer in the first place.

Soul Winner

wolfsbane wrote: »

What I read is that both God and Satan are involved.

They are indeed both involved but you must remember from the book of Job that Satan cannot act without the express permission of God. He can do nothing without God's OK first. So if Satan is running amok, it is only because God is allowing it. You could say that Satan is a puppet in God's plan, just like heathen nations in the Old Testament carried out God's judgment on His people without their actually knowing it.

wolfsbane wrote: »

It is the prophecy of what God is going to bring to pass. But that does not mean Satan is passive - he goes on an even greater assault on God's people, for he knows his time is short (Rev.12).

Yes because God is allowing it.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Indeed - but Satan attacks the church while the judgements of God continue. Note what is said after the fifth seal is opened:
Revelation 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

I don't believe they are the Church of God but they would be part of the Church in that they are part of the body of Christ. I believe these to be saints which come out from the Tribulation the Great Tribulation which is God's wrath being poured out on the world which rejects the atoning work which Jesus wrought.

wolfsbane wrote: »

What is the difference between what they suffer under Antichrist and what countless thousands of Christians have suffered under Nero, the popes, or in Marxist, Muslim and Hindu countries today? And why do you say Antichrist's wrath against them is God's wrath???

Like I said in an earlier post. Jesus said that in the world ye shall have tribulation. But that is only tribulation which comes form the world, and Satan and his minions, but the Tribulation the Great Tribulation is what comes from God Himself, which is why it is always differentiated from normal tribulation.

wolfsbane wrote: »

That is only your assumption. You need proof of it.

Well what other meaning can we attach to it? A meaning which gels with the general revelation in God's word and the feasts of God?

wolfsbane wrote: »

Did Christ not finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy?

For those who have faith in His work yes, but not for the world in general. The world in general reject Christ, so they will be sent a false Christ (by God) and they will believe a lie and be damned. Those in this time who recognize this false Christ for what he is will turn to to God and repent and will be forgiven their sinful ways but will be spared the fate of those who take the mark of the false Christ because they will pay with their lives for not taking it. It is these who are the ones who congregate under the altar until their number is completed.

wolfsbane wrote: »

An assumption that this speaks of Christ.

This was God's revelation to man. The only door open in heaven to man is Christ. There is no other door open.

wolfsbane wrote: »

An assumption that this speaks of the second trumpet.

I've yet to hear a better explanation of that trumpet.

wolfsbane wrote: »

The idea of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture was unknown in the Church until the 19th C. It's origins there are also disreputable. And the idea that God has two peoples, two brides - the Church and Israel - is against all the NT says about the New Covenant. When Christ spoke about His sheep, He spoke about the Church composed of Jew and Gentile. He knew no other group that would inherit eternal life.

That cannot be anymore wrong. Paul refers to the Church as a wild olive branch which was grafted onto the natural stock which was Israel - Romans 11:24. God had two brides in the OT, Judah and Israel. He divorced Israel and is still married to Judah - Jerimiah 3:8. And it was to the lost house of Israel which Jesus said that the Gospel must first be preached - Matthew 10:5-6.

wolfsbane wrote: »

I think it is foolish to take the symbolic books and figure out the details from them, rather than let the plain narrative guide our understanding of the symbolic. The gospels and the epistles speak clearly of one coming again of Christ - to rescue His people and destroy the wicked, all on the one Day.

Well no that is not right either. Jesus came many times in the NT after he rose. He said to the women to not touch Him for He has not ascended to the Father (John 20:17), then at another time He allows Thomas to touch Him (John 20:27). This can only be explained by multiple comings and goings. The second advent of Christ onto this earth is when He comes to set up His Kingdom but He does come again for His Church to take them out off the earth before the wrath of God is poured out on those who reject Him. The Church is not here during this time. If it is then it goes against all the types in scripture which say differently.

wolfsbane wrote: »

So Rapture, YES. But followed by Wrath. Not Wrath for some and blessing for others. The righteous are removed, and wrath falls on the wicked. The symbols cannot be read so that they distort the plain words of Christ and the apostles.

What are these plain words you speak of? And how do you interpret them as agreeing which what you believe about the Church going through the Great Tribulation?

Soul Winner

Another verse which needs explanation for this discussion is Rev 3:10:

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth."

What else could Jesus be talking about in this verse except The Tribulation the Great Tribulation? Notice that it is a time of testing also and not only a time for destruction of the wicked? There will be many who will pass this test and pay with their lives in this testing time but God's wrath is not solely a time for destroying the wicked. This verse clearly supports a pre-tribulation rapture unless you can explain the testing time which will come on the whole earth as something other than The Tribulation the Great Tribulation, and the explanation must have the Church gone because that is what is promised in this verse. And then there is also Romans 8:1:

“There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

We are in Christ when He is in us and we get Christ in us by faith. And faith is trusting Him with our lives and living by His Word. That’s what it means to be in Christ. So those who are in Christ and still alive till this time of testing - which is when God releases anti-Christ, literally a substitute Christ on the earth - will be taken out and will be changed in a twinkling of an eye and will be with the Lord forever.

“For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then (after the taking out) the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan (after that which holds it back is taken out of the way) displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.” 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12

"Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep (die), or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep (died) in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.” 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

“Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep (die), but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

The next feast or set time of the Lord to be fulfilled is the Feast of Trumpets. One trumpet has been fulfilled in Christ's first coming, the second one will be fulfilled in His second coming which will take place in the air as the verse above describes, and is the time when He takes His Church home. These were silver trumpets which were blown all day, and silver is always symbolic of redemption not judgment, brass is symbolic of judgment. His second coming to the earth is when His feet actually touch the mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4) and this is when he comes to bring judgment and to put down His enemies, and this He does with His Church behind Him as described in Revelation 19:14.

All these verses support a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church.

bobbiw

peakpilgrim wrote: »

Hi

THE RAPTURE

Some Christians believe that, at the end of the world, the earth is consumed
by fire and the faithful go up to meet God.

Does anyone have an opinion on this Topic

Kind Regards,

The rapture is joke, its made up, its a bad b movie or worse.

The theory never existed 300 years ago it was made up. No one since the dawn of time till then ever considered such nonsense.

So your in a plane a suddenly the pilots disappear.

Its was made up when the worse thing that could happen is that your horse would feel lighter.

Soul Winner

bobbiw wrote: »

The rapture is joke, its made up, its a bad b movie or worse.

The theory never existed 300 years ago it was made up. No one since the dawn of time till then ever considered such nonsense.

So your in a plane a suddenly the pilots disappear.

Its was made up when the worse thing that could happen is that your horse would feel lighter.

Thanks for clearing that up for us. You're combination of elegance and wit is a marvel to behold.

keano_afc

bobbiw wrote: »

The rapture is joke, its made up, its a bad b movie or worse.

The theory never existed 300 years ago it was made up. No one since the dawn of time till then ever considered such nonsense.

So your in a plane a suddenly the pilots disappear.

Its was made up when the worse thing that could happen is that your horse would feel lighter.

Well, I for one am glad you cleared that up for us. :rolleyes:

bobbiw

Soul Winner wrote: »

Thanks for clearing that up for us. You're combination of elegance and wit is a marvel to behold.

Your welcome!,

You do know that you can tell a lot about a person by their screen name.

Fanny Cradock

Everyone take a deep breath and relax.

Soul Winner

bobbiw wrote: »

Your welcome!,

You do know that you can tell a lot about a person by their screen name.

Yes I'm up front about it. I consider it an honour that God might use me to be the vessel through which others may be won to His Kingdom for which He and He alone will get the glory. What's wrong with that? The handle is honest and clear what more do you want?

wolfsbane

Soul Winner said:

Quote: Originally Posted by wolfsbane What I read is that both God and Satan are involved.
They are indeed both involved but you must remember from the book of Job that Satan cannot act without the express permission of God. He can do nothing without God's OK first. So if Satan is running amok, it is only because God is allowing it. You could say that Satan is a puppet in God's plan, just like heathen nations in the Old Testament carried out God's judgment on His people without their actually knowing it.

I agree. Satan can only do what God permits. Sometimes God permits him to afflict believers as chastisement for their sins - but at others it is not their sins but their glory that is involved. God chastises His children and also allows them to be persecuted in this age - so why would He not in the Great Tribulation?

Quote: Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Indeed - but Satan attacks the church while the judgements of God continue. Note what is said after the fifth seal is opened: Revelation 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. I don't believe they are the Church of God but they would be part of the Church in that they are part of the body of Christ. I believe these to be saints which come out from the Tribulation the Great Tribulation which is God's wrath being poured out on the world which rejects the atoning work which Jesus wrought.

So you think there is a second chance for sinners today - if they last till the secret rapture, then they will have another chance to repent and believe? Also, I'm not sure what you mean about these folk: are they part of the Church that Christ loved and gave Himself for, or not? If they are, how come they face the Great tribulation but you say the Church cannot? If they are not the Church, where will they spend eternity?

Quote: Originally Posted by wolfsbane What is the difference between what they suffer under Antichrist and what countless thousands of Christians have suffered under Nero, the popes, or in Marxist, Muslim and Hindu countries today? And why do you say Antichrist's wrath against them is God's wrath??? Like I said in an earlier post. Jesus said that in the world ye shall have tribulation. But that is only tribulation which comes form the world, and Satan and his minions, but the Tribulation the Great Tribulation is what comes from God Himself, which is why it is always differentiated from normal tribulation.

But our tribulation today is from God, mediated by Satan, in the sense seen in Job. The Great Tribulation is Satan's wrath against God's people: Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Mediated through Antichrist:
Revelation 13:2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority... And permitted by God: 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
No different from today, except in ferocity.

Quote: Originally Posted by wolfsbane
That is only your assumption. You need proof of it.
Well what other meaning can we attach to it? A meaning which gels with the general revelation in God's word and the feasts of God?

The Word tells us that the gospel is to be preached in all the world, and then the end comes:
Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Unless you say the 'you' here are not Christians, you will note both the end- time tribulation and the end of all things. So the Church is present right till the moment when Christ returns in flaming fire: 2 Thessalonians 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Quote: Originally Posted by wolfsbane Did Christ not finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy?
For those who have faith in His work yes, but not for the world in general.

But He will never do that for the wicked. They will perish in their sins.

The world in general reject Christ, so they will be sent a false Christ (by God) and they will believe a lie and be damned.

Correct.

Those in this time who recognize this false Christ for what he is will turn to to God and repent and will be forgiven their sinful ways but will be spared the fate of those who take the mark of the false Christ because they will pay with their lives for not taking it. It is these who are the ones who congregate under the altar until their number is completed.

This is what I too believe. The Church is added to in Tribulation just as it is today.

Quote: Originally Posted by wolfsbane
An assumption that this speaks of Christ. This was God's revelation to man. The only door open in heaven to man is Christ. There is no other door open.

OK, but is that definitely a symbol of the Church being raptured? Why not just of John being taken into heaven to have the revelations given him? Paul spoke of the same thing happening to him, and the Church was not raptured then.

Quote: Originally Posted by wolfsbane
An assumption that this speaks of the second trumpet.
I've yet to hear a better explanation of that trumpet.

It most likely refers to Christ's voice, as in:
Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

Quote: Originally Posted by wolfsbane
The idea of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture was unknown in the Church until the 19th C. It's origins there are also disreputable. And the idea that God has two peoples, two brides - the Church and Israel - is against all the NT says about the New Covenant. When Christ spoke about His sheep, He spoke about the Church composed of Jew and Gentile. He knew no other group that would inherit eternal life.
That cannot be anymore wrong. Paul refers to the Church as a wild olive branch which was grafted onto the natural stock which was Israel - Romans 11:24.

No, he doesn't. That passage refers to the Gentile Christians, not the Church, being added to the tree. The tree is the Israel of God, which the Gentiles believers now enter:
Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

God had two brides in the OT, Judah and Israel. He divorced Israel and is still married to Judah - Jerimiah 3:8. And it was to the lost house of Israel which Jesus said that the Gospel must first be preached - Matthew 10:5-6.

Israel then was made up of the ten tribes of Israel and two of Judah. The figure of marriage/divorce cannot be pressed to God having two wives in the Old Covenant - Israel (the 12 tribes) was His wife.

The 12 tribes were represented in the land of Israel in Jesus' time. The apostles were sent to them first, before they were allowed to go to the Gentiles. The idea that the 10 tribes were 'lost' is mistaken. The lost were those of them who had perished in exile or had intermarried with the Gentiles and lost their identity. That happened to many of the 2 tribes as well as the 10.

Quote: Originally Posted by wolfsbane I think it is foolish to take the symbolic books and figure out the details from them, rather than let the plain narrative guide our understanding of the symbolic. The gospels and the epistles speak clearly of one coming again of Christ - to rescue His people and destroy the wicked, all on the one Day. Well no that is not right either. Jesus came many times in the NT after he rose. He said to the women to not touch Him for He has not ascended to the Father (John 20:17), then at another time He allows Thomas to touch Him (John 20:27). This can only be explained by multiple comings and goings.

I am referring to THE second coming - the coming after He had finally ascended - the one referred to by the angels:
Acts 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

From that moment, only one coming is in view. It too will be with the clouds of heaven. Check the references:
After the Tribulation
Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Seen by the Wicked
Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Rapture then too
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Every eye will see Him
Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

The second advent of Christ onto this earth is when He comes to set up His Kingdom but He does come again for His Church to take them out off the earth before the wrath of God is poured out on those who reject Him.

All the one event, as the above texts show. But here's more:

Wrath for the wicked & Rescue for the righteous at His revelation:
2 Thessalonians 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Trumpet:

After the Tribulation
Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days...
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

At the Rapture
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

The Church is not here during this time. If it is then it goes against all the types in scripture which say differently.

Remind me of them, please.

Quote: Originally Posted by wolfsbane
So Rapture, YES. But followed by Wrath. Not Wrath for some and blessing for others. The righteous are removed, and wrath falls on the wicked. The symbols cannot be read so that they distort the plain words of Christ and the apostles.
What are these plain words you speak of? And how do you interpret them as agreeing which what you believe about the Church going through the Great Tribulation?

Plain words like those in the texts I gave above.

Also in:
Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
The wicked and righteous are separated and judgement eternally falls. No second chances, no more saved.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Only Noah and his family took heed of the warning of Judgement Day. That Day saw them delivered and the rest perish. No second chances, no more saved.

Philippians 1:10 that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ,
The Church is present on earth till then.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Antichrist is to at least be revealed before the Rapture.

Isaiah5417

Soon the World is going to experience the Rapture, as it's ushered on the doorstep of humanity. In a moment, In the Twinkling of an Eye, The Rapture will be an Earthly fact of Living Reality. Be wise, and Don't Be Left Behind. We are in the end time(As the days of Noah) and be Rapture ready, Because the christian pre tribulation Rapture is very real, and the next BIG event on the Bible Prophecy calendar...

Bible Prophecy, Rapture of His Bride

http://bibleprophecy-rapture.blogspot.com/2008/09/bible-prophecy-rapture-of-his-bride.html

Bible Prophecy- The Rapture
http://bibleprophecy-rapture.blogspot.com

Kind Regards,

qberry

peakpilgrim wrote: »

Hi

THE RAPTURE

Some Christians believe that, at the end of the world, the earth is consumed
by fire and the faithful go up to meet God.

Does anyone have an opinion on this Topic

Kind Regards,

A pre-tribulation "rapture" is just one in a long line of fables that the modern-day churches are teaching. Without it their anti-Christ fable wouldn't line up. And so it is that, one fable requires another.

wolfsbane

Isaiah5417 said:

the rapture-
Soon the World is going to experience the Rapture, as it's ushered on the doorstep of humanity.

Amen.

In a moment, In the Twinkling of an Eye, The Rapture will be an Earthly fact of Living Reality. Be wise, and Don't Be Left Behind. We are in the end time(As the days of Noah) and be Rapture ready,

Amen.

Because the christian pre tribulation Rapture is very real, and the next BIG event on the Bible Prophecy calendar...

Aw, you spoiled it. Not until the last 200 years did anyone think the Rapture came before the Tribulation.

Like Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1, they expected to be rescued and the wicked destroyed on the same occasion:
2 Thessalonians 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Kind Regards,

And you, Bro.