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The Rapture
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I'm sure all Christians believe in the Rapture. What they disagree on is whether it is pre, mid or post-Tribulation.
I go with post-tribulation, the interpretation historically called the General Resurrection. Christ returns and the dead saints are resurrected and they with the living saints meet Him in the air.
The wicked living and the resurrected wicked are called to the Judgement. The universe is rolled up, the earth consumed by fire, and a new heaven and new earth emerge. That is where God comes to dwell with us for eternity.
Sadly, many Christians have made it all a test of orthodoxy. Not to hold to a Pretribulation view is tantamount to heresy in many churches, especially in America - but also in Brethren circles in Ireland.0 -
I'm sure all Christians believe in the Rapture. What they disagree on is whether it is pre, mid or post-Tribulation.
I go with post-tribulation, the interpretation historically called the General Resurrection. Christ returns and the dead saints are resurrected and they with the living saints meet Him in the air.
The wicked living and the resurrected wicked are called to the Judgement. The universe is rolled up, the earth consumed by fire, and a new heaven and new earth emerge. That is where God comes to dwell with us for eternity.
Sadly, many Christians have made it all a test of orthodoxy. Not to hold to a Pretribulation view is tantamount to heresy in many churches, especially in America - but also in Brethren circles in Ireland.
The whole thing?0 -
DTrotter said:
I take it you mean the extend of the dissolution. Yes, the whole universe.Originally Posted by wolfsbane
I'm sure all Christians believe in the Rapture. What they disagree on is whether it is pre, mid or post-Tribulation.
I go with post-tribulation, the interpretation historically called the General Resurrection. Christ returns and the dead saints are resurrected and they with the living saints meet Him in the air.
The wicked living and the resurrected wicked are called to the Judgement. The universe is rolled up, the earth consumed by fire, and a new heaven and new earth emerge. That is where God comes to dwell with us for eternity.
Sadly, many Christians have made it all a test of orthodoxy. Not to hold to a Pretribulation view is tantamount to heresy in many churches, especially in America - but also in Brethren circles in Ireland.
The whole thing?0 -
Silly and unchristian. Paul Thigpen wrote a great book on the errors of Rapture belief.0
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And it says this where in the bible?
2 Peter 3
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20peter%203;&version=50;
Highlights:
7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
Hebrews 12:25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.0 -
Why I believe in the Rapture of the saints and why I believe it will take place prior to The Tribulation The Great Tribulation.
"For sin comes death."
The wages of sin is death. Christ took this penalty on Himself so that we could escape it by faith in His work. This work was called Atonement and it was the fulfillment of the Old Testament feast (set time) of the Lord. It was one of many set times (or feasts) to be fulfilled in Christ. The following is a list of all the feasts
1. Sabbath
2. Passover
3. Unleavened Bread
4. First Fruits
5. Pentecost
6. Trumpets
7. Atonement
8. Tabernacles
Read Leviticus 23 to see the feasts or set times of the Lord.
Paul calls these feasts or set times of the Lord, ‘shadows of things to come’ but the substance which casts the shadows is Christ, Colossians 2:17. The Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ. When we rest from our works and enter into His rest, we rely solely on what He did instead of our own righteousness which to God is filthy rags. Sabbathing is resting from one’s works, and Christ provided that rest in Him thus fulfilling the Sabbath of which He was Lord.
Christ became our Passover Lamb that whosoever believes in Him shall have eternal life and not taste of death.
He also fulfilled the feast of Unleavened bread. This bread was hidden for three days before being unveiled, Christ fulfilled this Feast by being hidden three days in the earth.
Christ rose on the first day of the week and became the First Fruits of many brethren thus fulfilling the feast or set time or First Fruits.
When the day of Pentecost was fully come in Acts 2 the spirit descended on the disciples and the Pentecost which means 'fifty' (the number for Harvest) ensued and is still going on, Christ fulfilled and is fulfilling this feast also.
The last tree feasts to be fulfilled are Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles. But I thought Atonement was already fulfilled? Hold on I will get to that in a minute. Trumpets is next. The feast (or set time) of Trumpets falls in late September. In the Old Testament two silver trumpets were blown all day. Silver being the symbol for redemption and 2 being the number for adequate witness. The birth of Christ fulfilled one of these silver trumpets and the return of Christ to meet His saints in the air will be the fulfillment of the second trumpet.
After this we have Atonement. For those who accept the atoning work of Christ on the cross whether they be dead or alive at His coming in the air, will be caught up to meet Him. After this a 7 years of Atonement (which literally means affliction of soul) will ensue on this earth. 7 being the number of completion. Only after this 7 year affliction of soul on those who do not accept Christ’s atoning work will the Lord return to put down His enemies and set up His Kingdom on Earth which will last a thousand years.
During this thousand years the feast of Tabernacles will be fulfilled. According to Zechariah God will make sure that all the nations of the earth will observe the feast of Tabernacles in this time. In the Old Testament the feast of Tabernacles involved the tribes moving out of their houses and dwelling in temporary booths or tents or tabernacles, which were temporary dwelling places. They did this for 7 days. God made them remember their humble origins. This was the most loved feast in the Old Testament and they gave 203 offerings to God in those seven days. This is what God is going to make the nations of the earth do for a thousand years during the millennium.
Now getting back to the Rapture. The church is called the body of Christ. It is made up believers from all over the world and it is not denominational. As Christ bore God's wrath on the cross for us, those who reject Him will have to bare God's wrath on themselves. The world rejects Christ so the world is going to incur God's wrath. Those who are alive or dead in Christ will be taken out of this earth when God's set time for pouring out His wrath on the earth comes to pass, this is called atonement or affliction of soul. This is why I believe that the rapture will take place before the tribulation the great tribulation. There are two very important scriptures which allude to this. One of those has to do with Moses in the Old Testament. When God commanded Moses to speak to the Rock (Numbers 20:8) after the people murmured a second time, Moses got angry and struck the Rock again. He had already struck it once with his judgment rod but this time God just said speak to the rock. God would not allow Moses into the promised land because he did this. Which teaches that Christ is only stuck once and once only. Paul in the New Testament called this Rock 'Christ' 1 Corinthians 10:4 . Now if God pours out His wrath on the earth while the Church or the body of Christ is still here then that would be like Moses striking the Rock twice and God has revealed through the punishment of Moses that this is not part of His will. He will not strike the body of Christ a second time. Christ died once and once only therefore His body which is the Church must be taken out of the way first.
The second scripture which supports the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is in the Book of Revelation itself. If you read what Christ says to the apostle in Revelation 1:19 you will notice that He tells him to write the things which he has seen, the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. If you read from Chapter 1 verse 1 you will notice that John does write the things which he has seen. From chapter 2 through chapter 3 to the first verse in chapter 4 John writes down the things which are, namely the Churches. From Chapter 4 onwards he is writing about the things which shall be hereafter. Notice in John 4 verse 1 that he hears the voice as it were of a Trumpet talking to him which said “Come up hither”?
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." (1 Corinthians 15:51)
I believe John in this verse is a type of the Church and that this Trumpet is none other than the second silver trumpet to be fulfilled. After John is called up into heaven he sees what is to take place hereafter which is inline with what Christ told him in chapter 1. Notice that after this catching away of John to heaven you hear nothing more about the churches? Why? Because they are gone, the body of Christ is gone. God has left off dealing with the Church and is now concentrating on the last week of Daniel’s prophecy which is mainly concerned with the Jew. It is during this time that harvest of world comes full orbed. God’s Spirit is still at work and he seals 144,000 thousand from all the tribes except Dan to bring the gospel full orbed to all nations. But it is also a time of God awful tribulation, the likes of which the world has never known.
It also states in Thessalonians the following in relation to the lawless one or man of sin or anti Christ: "And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming." (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8)
What is this force that restrains the appearance of the lawless one? It is not God’s spirit because when he is revealed in Revelation 6 God’s spirit is still at work. I believe it is the church. Once the church is taken out of the way only then can he be revealed. Notice that the church is gone by Revelation 4 and after a short parenthesis in chapter 5 the first of the 7 seals to be broken reveals none other than the man on a white horse (imitation Christ in later chapters of Revelation) with a bow an no arrow symbolizing that he comes in with a peace plan and not with war as some think. This also gels with Daniels prophecy of the little horn as a peace maker to the nation of Israel and who break his peace deal with then three and half years in.
When you take the whole of God’s book together you get this picture of God in total control of history. When God pours out His wrath on the world the Church cannot be here. Once the seven years of tribulation (wrath) are completed the Church comes back with Christ adorned as bride and will rule and reign with Him a thousand years. This fulfills Daniel’s 70th week of years prophecy on his people the Jew. They will be brought back into proper relationship with God and will recognize Him whom they have pierced. When I hear a better mid or post tribulation argument for the rapture of the Church then I will go with that.0 -
Jesus’ second coming or the rapture should have come by now.
There is only one way to explain the following discrepancies and that is if Jesus believed that he would return in the life time of his disciples.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled
Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
Mark 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law
Jesus believed that everyone should stop their foolish earthly lives and prepare in haste for the second coming; we won’t have time for families.
2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2 Peter is written after the lifetime of all the disciples. The author of Peter is getting restless and wondering when the second coming is, indeed, coming. The only thing he can think to say is this convoluted explanation.0 -
Jesus’ second coming or the rapture should have come by now.
There is only one way to explain the following discrepancies and that is if Jesus believed that he would return in the life time of his disciples.
Ok lets go...Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled
You assume Jesus is referring to the generation He was addressing. Read the passage again and you will notice that Jesus is referring to the generation who sees the signs of the times - which are the subject of the verses in question - coming to pass. He said that generation will not pass away until all these things be fulfilled.Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
The Kingdom He is referring to is the Church age. When Christ rose from the dead He became the Son of God in power as Paul describes in Romans. That Kingdom was born through the resurrection of Jesus and there was some to whom He addressed this who did not taste of death till they saw this Kingdom of God arrive on the scene. Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is something that dwells within a man's heart. He inaugurated it by His resurrection from the dead. In any case, even if He was referring to the Kingdom which He will set up in His second coming, the promise to the believer is that they have eternal life through faith in Him, and once that faith is maintained even though the body dies the new man being built up in Him daily goes to eternal life anyway not death.Mark 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law
Jesus believed that everyone should stop their foolish earthly lives and prepare in haste for the second coming; we won’t have time for families.
If He believed that nobody should procreate and have families then how the heck is He going to set them at variance?
Ok then explain Psalm 90:42 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2 Peter is written after the lifetime of all the disciples. The author of Peter is getting restless and wondering when the second coming is, indeed, coming. The only thing he can think to say is this convoluted explanation.
“For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.”
The Psalms were written centuries before 2 Peter was penned so not sure where you got the idea that Peter was becoming restless and that that’s why he wrote that particular sentence. I believe he was simply conveying an already long established Jewish belief that with God there is no time.0 -
Soul Winner wrote: »Ok then explain Psalm 90:4
“For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.”
Is there really any need to explain similar sentences in a work spanning thousands of pages. We would expect similar poetry.Soul Winner wrote: »The Psalms were written centuries before 2 Peter was penned so not sure where you got the idea that Peter was becoming restless and that that’s why he wrote that particular sentence. I believe he was simply conveying an already long established Jewish belief that with God there is no time.
OK then, read the whole of 2 Peter 3. You can plainly see that the author is addressing the critics of the age who were asking, "Where is this Jesus of yours and His second coming?".0 -
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Is there really any need to explain similar sentences in a work spanning thousands of pages. We would expect similar poetry.
You're the one who said that Peter was getting restless so he made up this stuff about the a day with the Lord being as a thousand years in order to explain the Lord's tarrying. I showed you a proof text from the Old Testament to highlight the fact that Peter didn't make it up, it was a common Jewish belief long before the New Testament times.OK then, read the whole of 2 Peter 3. You can plainly see that the author is addressing the critics of the age who were asking, "Where is this Jesus of yours and His second coming?".
The key words in that chapter are "last days"
"First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised?" II Peter 3:4-5
So he is talking about people in the last days. Does this clear things up a bit for you?0 -
The Rapture is lousy theology, for those unfamiliar with it, rapture theology assumes another coming of Christ. He sneaks back to save His favorites from suffering under the coming Tribulation. He then comes back some time later in His glory. I'm unfamiliar with any reference to Christ returning twice ad I'm offended with the idea the favored of God will not suffer. This theology means the Christians suffering in Sudan are not loved by God. Lousy theology started by a defrocked Jesuit0
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The Rapture is lousy theology, for those unfamiliar with it, rapture theology assumes another coming of Christ. He sneaks back to save His favorites from suffering under the coming Tribulation. He then comes back some time later in His glory. I'm unfamiliar with any reference to Christ returning twice ad I'm offended with the idea the favored of God will not suffer. This theology means the Christians suffering in Sudan are not loved by God. Lousy theology started by a defrocked Jesuit
Jesus said: "in the world ye will have tribulation". John 16:33. The word in the Greek is "Thlipsis". It was the same word which they used for the rod that beat the wheat from the chaff. The Christian gets this kind of tribulation from the world, the flesh and the devil all the time. But the tribulation which comes from God is a wholly different kettle of fish. It is called “The Tribulation the Great Tribulation”, because it comes directly from God on sin. This is what was poured out on Christ on Calvary and is what will be poured out on the world who reject what Christ did. Those who accept the atoning work of Christ are spared this particular kind of Tribulation which is always differentiated from ordinary tribulation in scripture. And they will be taken off this earth when the time for that Tribulation comes to be poured out. So even though the suffering in the world, which is primarily caused by the evil of man and the minions of the devil, it will seem like a cake walk by the time God is through with pouring out His Tribulation. In short if you think Darfur is bad, that’s nothing compared to what’s to come.0 -
Soul Winner wrote: »
{Matthew 24}
You assume Jesus is referring to the generation He was addressing. Read the passage again and you will notice that Jesus is referring to the generation who sees the signs of the times - which are the subject of the verses in question - coming to pass. He said that generation will not pass away until all these things be fulfilled.
Mmm, I’ve never heard that one before. In fact, most Christians, and even a Jehovah Witness on my doorstep, said that generation in this sense refers to a genus i.e. the species of man or even Jew. In fact, most Christians like to point out that their bibles have footnotes illuminating the alternative translation of generation to get around this very difficulty.
This disagreement in biblical matters was one of the very things that led to my de-conversion from Christianity. During bible study we would all pray for understanding then go away into our little groups and all come back with totally different interpretations of biblical texts. This would, perhaps, be the norm if studying Macbeth but the bible is special and the Holy Spirit is meant to act as a guide to understanding and all it really meant was that the prayer before group study was never answered.Soul Winner wrote: »The key words in that chapter are "last days"
First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised?"II Peter 3:4-5
So he is talking about people in the last days. Does this clear things up a bit for you?
Sorry to say it was already clear to me. Peter believed he was in the last days and so did the scoffers to which he is referring. Read the history of Christianity and you will discover that every age believes that they are in the last times. These things that we struggle with two thousand years later would have been clear to the people of that time. And it is clear they believed that they were in the last times.
By the way, I did toy with calling myself "Mind Winner" before joining the forum. It was a toss-up between that and Hotspace.0 -
This disagreement in biblical matters was one of the very things that led to my de-conversion from Christianity. During bible study we would all pray for understanding then go away into our little groups and all come back with totally different interpretations of biblical texts. This would, perhaps, be the norm if studying Macbeth but the bible is special and the Holy Spirit is meant to act as a guide to understanding and all it really meant was that the prayer before group study was never answered.
So becuase people had different opions upon the exact meaning of a particular text it (presumably amongst other things) led you to de-convert? That seems about as wise as jacking in science or whatever because not everyone is in agreement.
I don't mean to be rude, but did you think your prayer group, unlike the rest of mankind, was somehow immune to arriving contrary interpretations in relation to the bible? And what if a number of you did arrive at something different? It doesn't then follow that one of you wasn't on to the truth.
Anywho, in relation to Matt 24:34, unless Jesus or the author of Matt were incredibly stupid and contradicted themselves within the same breath, then verse 36 seems like a concrete statement about his knowledge of the second coming. In other words, it categotrically states that Jesus didn't know when the second coming would happen. This suggests that verse 24 requires a more nuanced understanding, or a more accurate translation then you otherwise allow.0 -
Fanny Cradock wrote: »So becuase people had different opions upon the exact meaning of a particular text it (presumably amongst other things) led you to de-convert? That seems about as wise as jacking in science or whatever because not everyone is in agreement.
I don't mean to be rude, but did you think your prayer group, unlike the rest of mankind, was somehow immune to arriving contrary interpretations in relation to the bible? And what if a number of you did arrive at something different? It doesn't then follow that one of you wasn't on to the truth.
I should, of course, have said, "One of the very many things that led me to de-convert". Did you even read my post about unanswered prayer and the Holy Spirit's role in Christian epistemology?Fanny Cradock wrote: »Anywho, in relation to Matt 24:34, unless Jesus or the author of Matt were incredibly stupid and contradicted themselves within the same breath, then verse 36 seems like a concrete statement about his knowledge of the second coming. In other words, it categotrically states that Jesus didn't know when the second coming would happen. This suggests that verse 24 requires a more nuanced understanding, or a more accurate translation then you otherwise allow.
Isn't it ridiculous that each part of the trinity (made from the same uncaused ether) doesn't talk to each other. Bart Ehrman found that it bothered the scribes that Jesus said, "Not even the son". And for this reason the scribes simply omitted it from many versions of the bible.0 -
Can we get back to discussing the Rapure now?0
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I should, of course, have said, "One of the very many things that led me to de-convert". Did you even read my post about unanswered prayer and the Holy Spirit's role in Christian epistemology?
Can't say I read it. But you should realise that I acknowledged that there were probably other factors involved in your de-conversion.Isn't it ridiculous that each part of the trinity (made from the same uncaused ether) doesn't talk to each other. Bart Ehrman found that it bothered the scribes that Jesus said, "Not even the son". And for this reason the scribes simply omitted it from many versions of the bible.
Ok, now we are definitely straying from the point. However, since you ask a (rhetorical) question. No, I don't find it ridiculous. Furthermore, I don't have any expectations on the finer points of a state of existence none of us have ever experienced.0 -
The nature of the Tribulation is indeed crucial to the timing of Christ's coming. If it is the wrath of God, then His coming must be prior to it. If it is the wrath of Satan, then we can expect to go through it before being rescued by Christ.Soul Winner wrote: »Jesus said: "in the world ye will have tribulation". John 16:33. The word in the Greek is "Thlipsis". It was the same word which they used for the rod that beat the wheat from the chaff. The Christian gets this kind of tribulation from the world, the flesh and the devil all the time. But the tribulation which comes from God is a wholly different kettle of fish. It is called “The Tribulation the Great Tribulation”, because it comes directly from God on sin. This is what was poured out on Christ on Calvary and is what will be poured out on the world who reject what Christ did. Those who accept the atoning work of Christ are spared this particular kind of Tribulation which is always differentiated from ordinary tribulation in scripture. And they will be taken off this earth when the time for that Tribulation comes to be poured out. So even though the suffering in the world, which is primarily caused by the evil of man and the minions of the devil, it will seem like a cake walk by the time God is through with pouring out His Tribulation. In short if you think Darfur is bad, that’s nothing compared to what’s to come.
Can to point to where the Tribulation is described as the wrath of God? It seems to me to be very much the wrath of Satan against God's people:
Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Revelation 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.0 -
Personally I am not at all interested in 'the Rapture'. Seems a lot more like the fire and brimstone style of preaching which I wouldn't be all that familiar with.0
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Hotspace said:
If our understanding of the Bible was meant to be perfected in this life, no doubt our prayers for understanding would be answered by a full knowledge. That is not what God has purposed. He could have given us all a complete understanding of His word in the moment of our conversion - but He has chosen to cause us to labour in study and faith, to be dependent on Him for every advance. So too with our progression in holiness. No instant fixes. A war in which there is no discharge.This disagreement in biblical matters was one of the very things that led to my de-conversion from Christianity. During bible study we would all pray for understanding then go away into our little groups and all come back with totally different interpretations of biblical texts. This would, perhaps, be the norm if studying Macbeth but the bible is special and the Holy Spirit is meant to act as a guide to understanding and all it really meant was that the prayer before group study was never answered.
Seems to me even in this passage he understood that his generation might not be the last (a thousand years as one day with God).Peter believed he was in the last days
If they believed they were in the last days they would not have been scoffers. The scoffers of the last days will rubbish the idea of there being any 'last days'. To them the Coming of Christ is a fairy-story told to scare children. They believe in vast unbroken ages from the Beginning, denying even the previous great judgement (the Flood) and assert that time is going to continue like that. Witness: the many atheists and agnostics on this thread.:Dand so did the scoffers to which he is referring.
Yes, many generations thought it possible, even likely, that theirs was the last. They saw a lot of evil, and thought this must be the prelude to Antichrist's reign. They were foolish in thinking so, ignoring the plain conditions to be fulfilled before that can happen, the gospel preached in all the world, for example, or the return of Israel to their land.Read the history of Christianity and you will discover that every age believes that they are in the last times. These things that we struggle with two thousand years later would have been clear to the people of that time. And it is clear they believed that they were in the last times.
Peter and the apostles were not in that category, as they knew enough of the Lord's teaching to avoid that. For example, they knew that Jerusalem must fall, the Temple be destroyed and Israel carried away captive. That did not happen until after most of the apostles were dead.
You might have been confused by the various uses of the 'last time' in their writings. Sometimes it refers to the whole era between Christ's first and second Comings, this gospel age. At other times it refers to the last part of this age.0 -
Everything God tells us is important. The End Times especially so, for Christ Himself warns us:Personally I am not at all interested in 'the Rapture'. Seems a lot more like the fire and brimstone style of preaching which I wouldn't be all that familiar with.
Matthew 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4 And Jesus answered and said to them:“Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
Also, if you are not spiritually prepared to face the Great Tribulation - as many of those who hold to a Pretribulation Rapture won't be - then you will be in for a shaking. That's why one's view on the timing of the Rapture is important.0 -
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Its a bit tangeantal but still relevant; but have many come in his name saying that they are the Christ?
David Koresh for one, Jim Jones a possible second. Admittedly Jim Jones never made claims to divinity and seemed largely to abandon the religious act.
I would imagine that what is meant isn't necessarily that people will be claiming to be Jesus incarnate, rather they will be offering some other "truth" or claim they are on some sort of mission that isn't in line with God's plan.0 -
Everything God tells us is important. The End Times especially so, for Christ Himself warns us:
“Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
Also, if you are not spiritually prepared to face the Great Tribulation - as many of those who hold to a Pretribulation Rapture won't be - then you will be in for a shaking. That's why one's view on the timing of the Rapture is important.
I accept that of course, what I meant to make clear above that I didn't go in for people analysing the Bible to come up with a specific date for when the Rapture will be, as many people have. Or using such a spectre to scare people back to religion.
Although I have since seen Sir Isaac Newton came up with some date not to precede 2060, which seems more likely than any others I'd ever seen.Its a bit tangeantal but still relevant; but have many come in his name saying that they are the Christ?
If you broaden the terms a bit and substitute Saviour for Christ for instance, bam you've got Hitler for a start. A man who declared his divine mission of salvation being to lead the German people to greatness.
Personally I'd have a tendancy to push Barrack Obama into that pile tbh. Something about him I don't like.
Crusades, Conquistadors, conversion under pain of death.. etc. Many people claimed to be acting for Christ.0 -
You are all bacteria on a spinning rock and your species will die out in time, the rock will eventually cool and freeze and that will be the end. The 'Rapture' referred to is a myth, like most of the writing in scripture and historical text.
Like most other myths it was generated either to oppress or explain the unexplainable to an ignorant population who needed simple stories to hang their faith on.
I am a Christian, however most of the books and passages you are quoting were written by deranged nutcases. The majority of Christian fundamentalists in the US and beyond couldn't think their way out of a wet paper bag and need some simple stories to stop their heads from imploding.
Now, go out and tell your neighbour you love them...
'cptr0 -
I would have thought that the idea the we are "bacteria" on a spinning rock in a universe fated to a death as cold as it is protracted seems to be more in line with Russell's view of the universe, and not the Christian promise of a new heaven and a new earth.
Out of curiosity, and apologies if I've misunderstood, but do you actually believe that our species is but a very finite number of earthly rotations around the sun away form extinction?0 -
Fanny Cradock wrote: »do you actually believe that our species is but a very finite number of earthly rotations around the sun away form extinction?
Yip. Its not going to happen any time soon so you needn't sell the family silver on eBay.
Christ said some really important things, they were recorded as best they could given the available technology and have been mixed in with some total nonsense. This has been spoon-fed to generations of us and we can't tell up from down as a result.
You have been given a wonderful opportunity to do good things, don't waste it worrying about the 'fires of Hell'.
Now go tell someone you love them - and mean it.
'cptr0 -
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I accept that of course, what I meant to make clear above that I didn't go in for people analysing the Bible to come up with a specific date for when the Rapture will be, as many people have. Or using such a spectre to scare people back to religion.
Although I have since seen Sir Isaac Newton came up with some date not to precede 2060, which seems more likely than any others I'd ever seen.
If you broaden the terms a bit and substitute Saviour for Christ for instance, bam you've got Hitler for a start. A man who declared his divine mission of salvation being to lead the German people to greatness.
Personally I'd have a tendancy to push Barrack Obama into that pile tbh. Something about him I don't like.
Crusades, Conquistadors, conversion under pain of death.. etc. Many people claimed to be acting for Christ.
It's the ears isn't it?0
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