Trainers are not Agony aunts

jt_dublin

Article below is from the Irish Independent website. Do any Personal Trainers here feel that they are also expected to be an Agony Aunt or Uncle or do you treat your personal trainer as one? The guy I train with would be interested to know that life outside of the gym is going well but that's all.


Trainers are not Agony aunts
In the same way that columnists should not engage in giving fitness advice, personal trainers should steer clear of giving advice in areas that they are not trained in.

In today's lifestyle and economy, we have to endure increased stress levels that begin to rise and add weight to already over-burdened shoulders.

All too often I have watched as people attempt to unload all of life's problems on the shoulders of a young trainer. The trainer is often not skilled to deal with the emotions of life's problems.

The trainer should stick to what he knows best -- training.

And the client, with their limited time for training, should recognise this and seek the guidance of a medical professional or coach who can assist them with the difficulties that they are dealing with.

Trainers are there to train you and not to be your agony aunt.

If they are acting as an agony aunt, this means that you are not exercising; and if you are not exercising you are not burning fat or changing shape. It is as simple as that.

cowzerp

Been an ear to listen can help clients, when you PT clients you get to knoe them well and they do confide in you, that does not mean your not exercising, breaks are the time to talk, and what you talk about depends on the client, some like football, others need diet advise, others just want to vent, as long as the trainer is mature enough to not get down or give bad advise then whats the problem..

Transform

absolute rubbish - you are all things to clients.

As a successful trainer it is your job to build the relationship and not just train them. Just make sure they are getting in better shape!!

I have seen plenty of trainers spending 10mins 'showing' a client how to do certain exercises that the client was not suited to doing in the first place, only for them to perform it badly again and again - now does that count as time wasting and not focusing on fat burning.

Results and the client keeps coming back are the answer and you do that by all means.

Colm_OReilly

The more I train people the more I'd agree with Transform above.

Was chatting with a client today, and asking him could we do anything better, and he said that "this place is where I get away from everything that's bothering me" and thanked me, so I think being a friendly ear from time to time is part of the job, and one part I enjoy actually.

celestial

Would disagree to an extent lads - in fairness he is making good points. I think this is the key one:

All too often I have watched as people attempt to unload all of life's problems on the shoulders of a young trainer. The trainer is often not skilled to deal with the emotions of life's problems.

A fair point considering a lot of trainers are young, and will start out young. Someone in their late teens/early 20s very likely won't have the life experience and maturity to be able to know when to disengage from someone going about their problems... 'I try to get motivated to do your programme, buuuutttt.....' Someone a little older would generally be more well equipped to nod and empathise without getting too drawn in where others might stand there and not be as well able to steer the session back on track.

Roper

I agree with the article. I have friendly conversations with people I train, but the idea that you're some sort of guru for someone's whole gamut of difficulties is preposterous. Sress relief is almost a given, and relationship building is obvious too. But the day I think that I'm anything more to someone than a coach is the day I'll call the arrogance police because that day I will know I have believed my own hype.

You think your clients trust you and you have a relationship? Raise your price 50% and see if they still love and trust you.

amacachi

Roper wrote: »

I agree with the article. I have friendly conversations with people I train, but the idea that you're some sort of guru for someone's whole gamut of difficulties is preposterous. Sress relief is almost a given, and relationship building is obvious too. But the day I think that I'm anything more to someone than a coach is the day I'll call the arrogance police because that day I will know I have believed my own hype.

You think your clients trust you and you have a relationship? Raise your price 50% and see if they still love and trust you.

Well personally I'd hardly call Agony Aunts "Gurus".

Roper

amacachi wrote: »

Well personally I'd hardly call Agony Aunts "Gurus".

Yeah you go get that one word out of the whole post you bloodhound you.

celestial

Roper wrote: »

I agree with the article. I have friendly conversations with people I train, but the idea that you're some sort of guru for someone's whole gamut of difficulties is preposterous. Sress relief is almost a given, and relationship building is obvious too. But the day I think that I'm anything more to someone than a coach is the day I'll call the arrogance police because that day I will know I have believed my own hype.

You think your clients trust you and you have a relationship? Raise your price 50% and see if they still love and trust you.

Yes - and to add to this 'being a friendly ear' and 'building a relationship' is not the same as standing there listening to their personal problems.

Transform

exactly - i am not claiming to be a guru and hate that phrase 'fitness guru'.

It has nothing to do with arrogance and everything to do with it being more important to have the client keep coming back and enjoying the session rather than training with a stick - the carrot has its uses when a problem shared is needed.

For example, over the past 3-4 months i have had some clients come to me that have trained with another trainer. They basically did not like their approach. Now did i apply my super motivation/councling skills to 'motivate' them and stroke their ego. No, i simply treated them as to how i want to be treated and hey presto they are happier, more consistent and most of all making progress.

One of which (female) i tested yeasterday went from 23% to 19% body fat in just under 5 weeks which is super considering she was making very little progress before and came to me burnt out and pissed off. I bloody hate using real examples as i know it makes me come across as a know it all but i really believe that the actual knowledge you will use to help transform the average client is very very little and its more about knowing how to keep a client coming back for more (at times i DO NOT do this very well but hey its a 50-50 deal with the client, i do my thing and they must do their bit).

The article was written by a pissed off trainer who just came out of a session with a moaner of a client. we all have them and get on with it. We have a bitch about how they talk too much but the very next client might well be someone who is putting in the effort and a pleasure to deal with (i have a mix of both every day!!)

Finally, in regards to raising the price to see how much they love me or trust me. It is farrrrrrrr more impressive to have the opportunity to train someone who is not earning big money and puts aside my fee to come train with me monthly/weekly than the person who is earning huge amounts and if i lop on another 20-30 euro to their bill they would not care.

Your comment just smacks of insolence rather than someone who knows the importance of how lucky it is to have a job helping people improve themselves and that that help can come in many ways (which i am sure you do).

floggg

I think you're coming at this from different angles lads.

Obviously a trainer is not qualified nor should he be expected to have to, advise a client on serious emotional or psychological issues or dispense career or relationship advice.

However, they should be willing and able to let somebody vent their feelings if frustrated and lend a sympathetic ear every now and then. I do think it would create a better training environment if you had some form of personal relationship with the trainer. I'm not saying become their best friends, but make them feel at ease, and that you don't just see them as an overweight euro sign.

in fairness though that applies to all jobs where you deal with clients, not just pt's. Business is about getting the balance right between service and customer relationships and without one you won't get far with just the other.

d'Oracle

I just read this thread titles and thought of someone tearfully opening their heart to a pair of Nike Air.

Bottle_of_Smoke

The article's not big on detail. Does anyone know what he means by what trainers shouldn't do?

Transform

totally agreed and i think everyone is basically saying the same thing

what clients shouldn't do - let client fart about for an hour

Roper

INSOLENCE!

I haven't heard that word used in a sentence since The Great Escape. "You insolent American!"

Transform

i know i had to use the thesarus for that one!!

lubie76

floggg wrote: »

in fairness though that applies to all jobs where you deal with clients, not just pt's. Business is about getting the balance right between service and customer relationships and without one you won't get far with just the other.

I'd agree with this as being an issue in any occupation where you have one to one contact with clients. I used to work as a Beauty Therapist and I can't tell you the amount of times I reckon people have just come in for a treatment to vent about their life and problems. It was probably an advantage for the therapist though as sometimes getting their problems off their chest helps them relax for treatment. Different when you are trying to motivate them for fitness though:)

Roper

Transform wrote: »

Finally, in regards to raising the price to see how much they love me or trust me. It is farrrrrrrr more impressive to have the opportunity to train someone who is not earning big money and puts aside my fee to come train with me monthly/weekly than the person who is earning huge amounts and if i lop on another 20-30 euro to their bill they would not care.

I think you took me literally. I wasn't suggesting that you raise your prices, just that what you're doing is a business transaction bsed on returning fitness results for your clients. Trust, relationship etc. etc. are based on price. Even if someone is giving you their dole money, or of they won the lotto, there's still a point at which your price will break that relationship.

Your comment just smacks of insolence rather than someone who knows the importance of how lucky it is to have a job helping people improve themselves and that that help can come in many ways (which i am sure you do).

And I think to say that you "are all things to clients" is an incredibly arrogant thing to say. I am incredibly lucky to be a coach and I love it a great deal. If me getting someone in shape or teaching them a new skill gives them something in their outside life, confidence, health, whatever, then that is a fantastic bonus. But my job is to train people, not to be their shoulder and I think that stepping beyond that and believing you can help with their personal problems is unprofessional.

Would my doctor advise me on my legal difficulties? Would my solicitor tell me how to solve my erectile dysfunction? No. And when I started to tell them they would politely tell me not to.

Hanley

Roper wrote: »

Would my doctor advise me on my legal difficulties? Would my solicitor tell me how to solve my erectile dysfunction? No. And when I started to tell them they would politely tell me not to.

You can hardly equate someone who might be upset or stressed because of work or a relationship talking to their trainer during a session with some guy asking a doctor how he can sort out legal difficulties??

Do people actually ASK their trainer what they should do, or are they just trying to offload??

floggg

Roper wrote: »

Would my solicitor tell me how to solve my erectile dysfunction?

I'm sorry to hear you've been having difficulties in that regard. I hope it hasn't put a strain on your relationship with Mrs Roper.

A prescribe a little blue pill!

Personal trainers have a job to do - that is train clients and get them in shape.

If you build a relationship up with a client that makes them want to talk to you as a mate then so be it, big deal. It's business. Building and maintaining relationships is the number one thing to be able to do after getting results I imagine. If I was a personal trainer, I'd like to just get on with my job of training people etc but if they talk to you like a mate, then big deal, you deal with it and communicate with them. If you're a personal trainer and you are training people, they will be relying on you to get them in shape, if they want to talk about certain issues of their life then what's the problem? It should be taken as a compliment that someone obviously looks up to you and respects you and wants to talk to you about it. I'm not saying pretend to be a psychiatrist or a mental health doctor - quite the contrary, I'm saying be there for the person paying you to be there - BUT get the job you are primarily being paid to do DONE.

Transform

Roper wrote: »

I think you took me literally. I wasn't suggesting that you raise your prices, just that what you're doing is a business transaction bsed on returning fitness results for your clients. Trust, relationship etc. etc. are based on price. Even if someone is giving you their dole money, or of they won the lotto, there's still a point at which your price will break that relationship.

And I think to say that you "are all things to clients" is an incredibly arrogant thing to say. I am incredibly lucky to be a coach and I love it a great deal. If me getting someone in shape or teaching them a new skill gives them something in their outside life, confidence, health, whatever, then that is a fantastic bonus. But my job is to train people, not to be their shoulder and I think that stepping beyond that and believing you can help with their personal problems is unprofessional.

Would my doctor advise me on my legal difficulties? Would my solicitor tell me how to solve my erectile dysfunction? No. And when I started to tell them they would politely tell me not to.

look roper if you are going to call me arrogant then fine go ahead and say it but to come back with throw up your prices and then see how much they 'love' you just plain pisses me off.

What i intended to mean by 'all things to all people' is that as a trainer you have to put on your various hats throghout the course of a day or a week.

For example, next week i have to deal with a guy who has not been back to work for a few years due to stress related reasons - so i will play it a little different with him

Yesterday i was dealing with a client who is going through a seperation - should i just ignore her anxious state and tell her to feckin get on with it? Should i not discuss she got 4-5hours sleep last night as her kids were waking her up?

Or how about the client that gets upset and ready to quit becuse his/her body fat is not down or the client who crys because their business is collapsing due to the recession?

obviously as a trainer you must become all things to them for short periods of time without losing sight of the goal - getting them in better shape. there are periods where i have to be a sales person, trainer, motivator and yes offer advice when i feel its needed and at times ask clients for help also. Remember we were/are clients at some time.

At times i am not the best at putting my thoughts down to read but i still stand by point that i get results and clients keep coming back (just like many other trainers) because of being all things to all people not in spite of it.

Roper

Transform wrote: »

look roper if you are going to call me arrogant then fine go ahead and say it but to come back with throw up your prices and then see how much they 'love' you just plain pisses me off.

You seem determined to get offended by this. Again, you've taken me literally. My intention was to show that we can talk in wishy washy terms about relationships, trust, being all things to people but the simple fact remains that you have a business relationship with the people you train,and all that trust will go out the window if one day they can't afford it or decide you're not worth it. Saying we're this and that to people is great for the sales broucher but not the reality.

What i intended to mean by 'all things to all people' is that as a trainer you have to put on your various hats throghout the course of a day or a week.

I'm actually pretty much the same with everyone who pays me to train them. When people do well I say "that's good", and when people do badly I say "that's ****", and in between there's "that's okay". Some people might read that and think that's harsh but people know what they're getting from me and they don't seem to mind too much. I don't wear any hats. I probably should because I'm bald, but I don't.

For example, next week i have to deal with a guy who has not been back to work for a few years due to stress related reasons - so i will play it a little different with him
Yesterday i was dealing with a client who is going through a seperation - should i just ignore her anxious state and tell her to feckin get on with it? Should i not discuss she got 4-5hours sleep last night as her kids were waking her up?

So for me, the client comes in and says "I didn't sleep last night, feckin kids" and I say okay, we'll do a light session today. I don't pretend to be able to empathise with a difficult situation. I know nothing about marital seperation and very little about most heightened emotional states. If training helps, that's good enough. I'm a coach, not a counsellor. I'll alter the training session as I see fit for any athlete/client on any given day and of course I'm friendly.

Or how about the client that gets upset and ready to quit becuse his/her body fat is not down or the client who crys because their business is collapsing due to the recession?

Well maybe it's because I'm such a cold calculating unappreciative bastard but nobody has ever cried when I've been training them. I can't relate to that. I don't want to relate to that, I keep an emtional distance from most of the people I train because that's professionalism as I see it. If someone comes to me with a personal problem relating to something out of my remit, then I cannot help without compromising our relationship as coach/client/athlete.

At times i am not the best at putting my thoughts down to read but i still stand by point that i get results and clients keep coming back (just like many other trainers) because of being all things to all people not in spite of it.

Well I suppose the point here is that if it is working for you, then that's all that matters to you. I disagree with what you're saying.

itsallaboutheL

I'm just going to throw my 2c in here, im probably well off the ball but..

In my opinion Tranform and Roper appear to have a very different clientele..

Just using the two lads as examples by the way

Example One
Personal Trainer
specialising in "lay people" , people who work nine to five, or stay at home moms, people who want to get fit and look good, people who need to look a certain way because of their jobs etc.

Ordinary decent people who come with all the baggage associated with life etc. using a PT to keep fit and healthy, will obv have trouble dealing with stresses of life may feel the need to talk/ confide in trainers, fair enough nothing wrong with that because the results are still very good etc

Example 2
S and C Coach
Sports Specialist
Clients mainly atheletes, top level, semi-pro etc
For these clients its a training session not a workout in there own minds, they are incredibly goal orientated and using Trainer to further atletic goals, not "normal" people, people paying to improve athletic performance like this would in my mind be much more driven and much better able to compartmentalise there life.

i.e going to gym to train then check outside life at door

I just think IMO ye are not comparing like with like.


* and im not for one minute saying ye dont have crossover clients but in the main ye have different specialisations yes?

I'm a big Seth Godin fan, the relevance? Well I was reading this today and it reminded me of this thread.

Link: http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2009/06/two-ways-to-build-trust.html

Here is the article:

Two ways to build trust

You can be a trusted institution or a trusted individual.

A few weeks ago, I set out to buy some imprinted items. I probably looked at a dozen t-shirt options online before I picked CustomInk. Why did I pick them?

They weren't the cheapest (but it's actually very hard to compare). I picked them because the site is clean and professional. I liked that they're not weasels (they quote actual prices and actual ship dates) and they have non-trivial, easy to use software that makes it easy to upload graphics and build a shirt.

Taken together, they earned my trust. There were plenty of sites with lousy typefaces and come-on pricing and bait and switch and clever Google ads, but none of this works on me. What works is someone walking the walk while they talk a good game.

Interestingly, I bought the hats from a totally different business. Roberts Specialty couldn't be less formal or carefully built. It's clearly a family run business, and their lack of spin and hustle hit exactly the right tone. When you want to order, you send an email to Tony Bennett (you gotta love the fact that his name is Tony Bennett) and he sends an email back. How old fashioned. How trustworthy.

One reason that so many hard sell businesses fail is that they are neither. They aren't (or don't appear to be) trustworthy institutions, nor are they trustworthy humans. So we move on. You do 95% of it right, then use cheesy fonts or lie a bit or try too hard and boom, that's it.

And the most important bit is in bold. People want to trust you. This applies to your network of contacts that give you a business. There has got to be trust. The same applies to personal training probably more so because training is a personal thing and can expose a lot of mental weaknesses in people - but if you have people coming back to you and maybe just talking because they are having a bad day - it's a good thing because they TRUST you. I think that's what Transform has with his clients and I think Roper should realise it's not a bad thing and you don't have to be so ruthless dealing with peoples emotions especially when those people are paying you for results. I think a good personal trainer should be able to deal with the mental aspect involved in training too - if listening to a client moan about whatever it is they want to go on about; I think that's a good thing and that the client trusts you which is essential for any business. I don't think the client is looking for you to become their doctor, I think the HUMAN BEING is just expressing normal emotion.

Transform

The last two posts were exactly right - my business is different and trust is essential.

Roper i respect you and your opinions and its great to have these discussions as it does really make me think when i go into sessions with clients how do i approach this now?

so are trainers agony aunts - at times for me yes and i do my best to not let it get in the way of a good workout.

floggg

I think lads its just that you both have two different approaches, outlooks and personalities, and that reflects how you see the product you are selling and how you are selling it.

I think from reading Transforms posts over the last year or so, he is the type who likes to build relationships, who likes to see personal growth and development in his clients, and doesn't rate his success by a balance sheet, but rather the warm fuzzy feeling he gets inside when he feels he has helped a client achieve their goals, even if they are quiet modest ones. I reckon his greatest achivements as a PT are not helping some guy win national awards, but helping a lay person with little or no natural athletic ability make relatively modest gains but transform their lives (hence the name).

Roper, might i guess that you would be a bit more results orientated. I imagine youwould get more satisfaction of training somebody to compete at a decent level. You don't get to emotionally attached, but will help someobdy get results, which is the bottom line in your book.

neither approach is right, neither approach is wrong. at the end of the day, there are people out their who will gravitate to one more than the other, and get better results that way.

One point though roper, i agree that there is a price that the relationship between a trainer and client will develop. However, i imagine the stronger the relationship, the greater that price increase would need to be. So while transforms clients will not stick around if he doubles his prices, he might get away with more of an icnrease than others because of the strength of the relationship with his clients.

Similarly, if you produce better results for your clients than the next guy, you can get away with more in terms of pricing increases than he could.

Zamboni

To be honest, one of the reasons I don't really train folks anymore was because I just couldn't deal with listening to clients going on about their various issues.
I would have been friendly and professional like Roper and I just wanted to train folks and provide them with results. I didn't give a toss if they just broke up with a partner or had a row with a friend etc.
Takes all sorts I suppose and more power to Transform with his approach but I am glad I got out of it.

Roper

Just to clear up some misconceptions.

Example 2
S and C Coach--- I wouldn't call myself an S&C coach, I'm still making my way in that regard and learning and developing every day.
Sports Specialist--- That's not neccessarily true, I'd say it's about 50-50 but most people who come to me I encourage to do a sport, so that changes to 70-30 over time
Clients mainly atheletes, top level, semi-pro etc--- see above
For these clients its a training session not a workout in there own minds, they are incredibly goal orientated and using Trainer to further atletic goals, not "normal" people, people paying to improve athletic performance like this would in my mind be much more driven and much better able to compartmentalise there life. I disagree. I have one totally professional athlete and that's only because he couldn't be arsed getting a job. Part time athletes are as susceptable to the vagaries of their jobs, families, home life, financial pressures etc. as anyone. If someone is goal oriented and able to leave it at the door it's because the gym culture we have developed encourages them to do that. Full time athletes are the same but they have pressures of performance etc. These are a little different though.

I just think IMO ye are not comparing like with like. I think the real difference isn't a matter of clients that myself and Transform have, but of mindset. That's fine, I disagree with him, he disagrees with me. I think this would have been a polite debate on that but for the fact that he too umbrage at one of my comments, which I've since explained further and I think he knows what I meant now. Other than that, it's all good. There are people reading this who are thinking they'd like to have a trainer they can talk to about their home life and relieve their stress that way, and there are others reading this who are thinking they'd like a place to go where they can check their baggage at the door. I'm sure both of our standards are really high regardless of how we get to the end point.

I just fundamentally disagree with his ideas on the post subject. That doesn't mean I'm going to come over to his place with the boys. I actually think a lot of the polite debates on this forum (at least the ones involving me) are excacerbated by people who presume there's some emnity and chime in. I may be abrupt, but I'm just being honest and giving my opinion, which is the point no? I doubt Transform lost sleep last night over this debate. Instead, I'd say he lost sleep because I kept ringing his phone and then turning it off in the time I estimated it would take for him to roll over and answer it.

Lou.m

Most trainers are quite young people in their twenties and not equip t to deal with things like this at all.

Even if you were to try and do training to become a therapist or do some counselling training at that age they would not let you as you dont have enough life experience to be able to deal with it.

IF you wanted to be a councillor and would be a good one then that is what you would be.

There is no problem being a mate and having a chat.

But this sort of life coach thing does not work ......

You are not qualified to deal with this adequately and really i think it causes more harm than good.

Amateur therapy is dangerous.

And young guys in their twenties have no idea what they are dealing with.
They dont even let you become a qualified therapist until you are in your late thirties.

The fitness industry is young industry and some of the people in it are well how should i put it.............often a bit on the shallow dippy side and in it for the money. SORRY I REALIZE THAT IS A MINORITY.

But people study years and gain a lot of experience before they are let lose on the public with their advice on people going through separations like someone posted below.

When i want to get fit i run when i have an emotional problem i am going to the person with the PHD!

Not the twenty two old year old in the gym!

I mean get real.

The can be sympathetic to someone without trying to pass yourself off as a guru dont pretend you are their friend because your not YOU CHARGE!

Not everyone has the emotional intelligence to become an agony aunt. YOu would be better serving them if you told them to consider therapy.

And if emotional issues are really gettin gin teh way of training to such an extent it becomes impossible then maybe they are not ready.

But instructors are there to earn a crust and will push it anyway.

And thats probably why you should not be an agony aunt you have other agendas and other jobs to do that would get in the way of giving good emotionally intelligent advice .......namely getting them fit!

If you are not qualified to talk psychology DON'T!

........it is not as simple as it seems and most trainers are to put it nicely young men who are not always the most emotionally intelligent.

Unless you have the MD dont play doctor. If you want to be a therapist wait until you are in your forties do the the PHD and get the experience.

Seriously the talk below of jacking up prices and what not just goes to show how imature and arrogant some people can be.

I have studied psychology and psychoanalysis in UNI as part of a B.A (although not my major) and i am in NO WAY qualified to be any kind of agony aunt !!!!

You are just going to screw people up!

You are never going to know who needs therapy and who does not you cant make that diagnosis.

Just be calm sympathetic, firm and professional, if it is not working with a client then maybe they just are not ready or they need another trainer that they can work with sometimes you have to fire the client.

But seriously if someone has such deep emotional issues that they cannot put them aside for a such a short period that it is interfering that is one good sign that you definitely should not be interfering!

Because that person is either at a point in life where training is and should not be a priority right now or they need REAL therapy from a health care professional.

Having a natter is fine hairdressers do it beauty girls do it .its fine.
But i see far too many arrogant (particularly young trainers) who think they really can give psychological and lifestyle advice beyond fitness.

Guru's are everywhere .......and they are not doing it for the mental health of their clients because guys little hint in mental health they are not called CLIENTS they are called PATIENTS and that distinction is their for a difference. It obligates the therapist with a certain moral code to with fitness trainers are not obligated to follow.........which is why there is so much BS and fleecing in the fitness industry. (AND THERE IS!)

There ARE trainers who like to do a little amateur therapy i have seen it.
And there are also those who dont know the difference between a chat and being a therapist.

Being sympathetic in order to get the best out of your clients is fine.
But whatever you do don turn in to TONY QUINN !!!!!!!!!!!!!

cowzerp

Lou.m wrote: »

Most trainers are quite young people in their twenties and not equip t to deal with things like this at all.

Most personal trainers are late 20's to 30's and mature in my experience, fitness instructors are younger but dont spend much personal time with clients, when i train clients i offer an ear, i dont solve there problems and dont advise unless its blatantly obvious, just like i would with a mate in a chat, we're not agony aunts but do have to deal with individual personalities in different ways

you get to know your clients quite well and know who wants to talk and who doesnt, also its important to point out that talking is not delaying the session, it would be done between sets and quite relaxed-just like talking to anyone really

Im leaning towards Transform here but do believe Trainers should be true to there own personality and not do stuff they would not do in there everyday lives

I would consider most my clients as friends and believe they would view me this way too, this can be achieved while been professional and honest with your clients.

Odysseus

I'm been watching this thread for a few days but I haven't had the time to respond, so just my two cents from the other side of the fence. This part does not apply to posters here as even though I have never met some the the people posting on this topic I'm aware of the quality of their work and respect that; however, as a psychotherapist I get a pain in my balls with people who have not got the correct professional training poking their noses in where it does not belong, and maybe putting the person in question at risk. I make my point again this does not relate to posters here.

In short my answer to the question is no, its not your job and your not qualified to do so. However, life is never that black or white. I work in a clinic with some long term clients and they hear things about me or see me training during my lunch break. So I often get asked questions about running or MA.

I will not deal with this during a session end of. However, I do give some fitness or advice about MA or training in general outside of a session. Which is in general very minimal and I usually recommend them on to some whos job it is to do that. If asked during a session, I tell them its not part of the work we are doing, but we can have a quick chat when its over.

The dangers I see is you never know what your getting into when someone opens up, you could never have a problem with and in this case you have help the person, they could become and disclose something way beyond your scope, now you have a problem, or they could become very dependent on you, yet another problem.

Transform

Jesus guys and girls we are not talking therapy here!

The debate was to get on with training or to listen to a client that had a problem and in a round about way have compassion for them without thinking your going to solve their problem e.g. the guy i am dealing with next week that has not been back to work for a few years is working with 2 qualified therapists that have both informed me of his condition just so i treat him with kid gloves to begin with is all.

Again as stated, i hate the word guru and the country is filled with 'life coaches' much in the same way the fitness industry is filled with fitness instructors who get their info from books, the web and magazines and think they are top of the game without actually working with one-to-one clients 24/7.

Yes leave the therapy to the experts and be understanding and compassionate enough to know not everyone is the same when it comes to getting fitter and looking better.

"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving, and tolerant of the weak and the strong -- because someday you will have been all of these".
George Washington Carver (1864 - 1943)

Odysseus

Transform wrote: »

Jesus guys and girls we are not talking therapy here!

The debate was to get on with training or to listen to a client that had a problem and in a round about way have compassion for them without thinking your going to solve their problem e.g. the guy i am dealing with next week that has not been back to work for a few years is working with 2 qualified therapists that have both informed me of his condition just so i treat him with kid gloves to begin with is all.

Again as stated, i hate the word guru and the country is filled with 'life coaches' much in the same way the fitness industry is filled with fitness instructors who get their info from books, the web and magazines and think they are top of the game without actually working with one-to-one clients 24/7.

Yes leave the therapy to the experts and be understanding and compassionate enough to know not everyone is the same when it comes to getting fitter and looking better.

Edit: Off topic, but I fiond it very unusal that the persons therapist contacted you, even more the fact that the have two.

"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving, and tolerant of the weak and the strong -- because someday you will have been all of these".
George Washington Carver (1864 - 1943)

I respect your point that your only attempting to show some compassion towards a person who make be in a difficult position Transform. As I pointed out I never met you, but I would be of the opinion that you are quite an ethical person in your profession life, based on your posts over the years.

I understand the point your making and the opposite side of as other posters noted. Its a difficult situation when you get pulled out of your profession position into an other area.

I understand that you are not talking about therapy, but not everyone is as profession as you, as you pointed out their are people out there who act very unetical. More than likely a pt will get pulled into a situation like this at some stage, my own opinion is be as compassionate as possible, but get down to your training as soon as possible.

I was merely attempting to highlight the possible dangers of getting drawn into such a situation, as you never know what's under the suface. Hope that makes sense.

Roper

Transform wrote: »

Jesus guys and girls we are not talking therapy here!

Well, that's fine and i agree with you to an extent and see your position, but I think you will have to accept that saying that you are "all things to clients" doesn't tally with your latter posts on this subject. Maybe you mis-spoke, as the Bushism goes, maybe you have clarified, or maybe you realised it was a silly thing to say. In any case I agree with your last post.

The next paragraph is not aimed at you directly by the way.

Referring to the original post, I think we live in an age of too much information and not enough expertise. People have access to as much pop psychology as they want to lay their hands on, and assume that because they're successful and happy, that their method of getting that happiness is the key to everyone elses. Why go to college to learn how to counsel someone during the breakdown of their relationship when you can learn everything you need to know from some book from Amazon and remembering how Rachael and Ross dealt with it in Friends? Why bother learning how to help someone deal with bereavment when you can take a quote from one of the weepy bits in Scrubs and read Who Moved My Cheese? Right now we have courses telling people that they can be all they want to be and telling people to go reach for the stars and so on, without telling them the harsh and often unpalletable truth- we can't all own our own business, we can't all be exceptional and surpise surprise, the vast majority of us are very, very average. What you get is people believing that they can help others because some fvcking €5000 life coach told them they were a unique snowflake.

That's why I think it's arrogant to assume you can help people. What makes someone think they're so free of difficulty and so perfect that they can profer advice? Wishy washy, new age bullsh1t prevails, and we all think we can solve our problems with a cup of coffee and a nice chat.

Odysseus

Roper wrote: »

Well, that's fine and i agree with you to an extent and see your position, but I think you will have to accept that saying that you are "all things to clients" doesn't tally with your latter posts on this subject. Maybe you mis-spoke, as the Bushism goes, maybe you have clarified, or maybe you realised it was a silly thing to say. In any case I agree with your last post.

The next paragraph is not aimed at you directly by the way.

Referring to the original post, I think we live in an age of too much information and not enough expertise. People have access to as much pop psychology as they want to lay their hands on, and assume that because they're successful and happy, that their method of getting that happiness is the key to everyone elses. Why go to college to learn how to counsel someone during the breakdown of their relationship when you can learn everything you need to know from some book from Amazon and remembering how Rachael and Ross dealt with it in Friends? Why bother learning how to help someone deal with bereavment when you can take a quote from one of the weepy bits in Scrubs and read Who Moved My Cheese? Right now we have courses telling people that they can be all they want to be and telling people to go reach for the stars and so on, without telling them the harsh and often unpalletable truth- we can't all own our own business, we can't all be exceptional and surpise surprise, the vast majority of us are very, very average. What you get is people believing that they can help others because some fvcking €5000 life coach told them they were a unique snowflake.

That's why I think it's arrogant to assume you can help people. What makes someone think they're so free of difficulty and so perfect that they can profer advice? Wishy washy, new age bullsh1t prevails, and we all think we can solve our problems with a cup of coffee and a nice chat.

I thiknk you got the essence of the point I was trying to make very well Roper. My understanding of training people [pt wise] is that you need a basic understanding of sports psychology or the psychology of motivation. People undertake crappy basic courses [around psychology, psychotherapy or counselling] and then in some cases cross a line without even knowing it in some cases.

Its unfortunate but we are now in a culture of everbody's a psychologist or therapist. I'm not aiming this at anyone here, but I shudder when I think of the damage this can cause. Its a case of its all well until the sticky stuff hits the fan.

Roper

Odysseus wrote: »

I thiknk you got the essence of the point I was trying to make very well Roper. My understanding of training people [pt wise] is that you need a basic understanding of sports psychology or the psychology of motivation. People undertake crappy basic courses [around psychology, psychotherapy or counselling] and then in some cases cross a line without even knowing it in some cases.

Its unfortunate but we are now in a culture of everbody's a psychologist or therapist. I'm not aiming this at anyone here, but I shudder when I think of the damage this can cause. Its a case of its all well until the sticky stuff hits the fan.

I think we're on the same page. I was a tick in a box away from majoring in Psychology, as it was I did two years and even at that I felt I only scratched the surface. Most people's exposure to it is Tony Robbin's style books on the "Psychology" shelf in Eason's and they're so full of bullsh1t it's hard to read a page.

Odysseus

Roper wrote: »

I think we're on the same page. I was a tick in a box away from majoring in Psychology, as it was I did two years and even at that I felt I only scratched the surface. Most people's exposure to it is Tony Robbin's style books on the "Psychology" shelf in Eason's and they're so full of bullsh1t it's hard to read a page.

I tend to drift off when people metion that name. General conversation "oh your a psychoanalyst, you must know of Tony Robbins" At that point I turn off like a criminal on a section 30. Other wise I would be facing a murder charge.

With the human mind its a case of the more you learn the less you know. I have been introduced a few times at talks "an expert on..." I hate that when I hear that word I also pull my cut away pad.

Halfway back on topic its a cultural thing I think. We are in a situation of everyone is special and whilst they may be special to some people in their lives that is where it end.

I would like to think I'm special to my family and partner but after that I'm just human. Thios self help culture has helped some people, but my opinion is that they where near the point of change inanyway and just needed a bit of direction.

We see it here on the forum alot people want immediate results, life is slow and painful. If you want results you have to put the work in.

Lou.m

I think we all tend to take ourselves too seriously thats the problem.

I agree with a lot of what Odysseus said.

And when you think about it...........

Maybe the fact that the gym is not therapy is one of the best things about it!

Maybe people meed to get away from that stuff and just run or whatever and have some fun!

Other aspects of life are vital to well being.
I suspect therapists often find themselves helping those no one else wants to help and doing a very hard job and a worthwhile one but....
If everywhere and everyone in life was a therapy junkie..........Jeeze it does not bear thinking about!

The fact that running is not therapy is one of the best therapies there is you know??
I am a very emotional person and i like to spill that out in dance or whatever sometimes it is a great way of expression.

I think being a friend is cool.
Exercise is therapy in its own right you are kind of ruining it if you bring in the other stuff.


DONT FORGET THE FUN! LAUGHTER IS THE BEST MEDICINE !
If someone is having problems all you can be is compassionate you cant really help them beyond that.


Where is the fun save the therapy for the experts and lets rock the gym and dance our legs off or run them off or whatever and have a blast!
Thats what it is there for:-) Not saying exercise cant be emotional for me it definitely is but like cue the music.............:p that kind of emotional expressing things you cant with words:-)

Just do it (nike tick) cue eye of the tiger music .......;):p

Transform

IMO this has been one of the most important posts on boards in some time as it gets to the essence of lasting change - it takes both the physical AND mental for it to become permanent.

Roper - your unique snowflake paragraph was very fight club and i agree with everything you said and as i have said in a previous reply my 'all things to all people' refers to the many hats you must wear when training clients NOT be a feckin new age guru with life coach skills that thinks he can CURE everyone.

Helping a client make a change to a healthier life it not just about training and if it was everone who set foot in a gym with a half decent program would be looking and feeling like they want. Therefore, knowing how to help people stay on track with both their diet and training requires assistance with the physical and mental aspects with much of the mental coming from suport, encouragement and more often than not a swift kick up the arse!!

Re: Ropers "Snowflake" rant, I personally think it's important to have self belief and confidence to succeed at anything in life. Most people like the idea of owning their own business but not as many as you think actually WANT to own their own business because you need a lot of ingredients to own a business - it's all well and good saying "Yeah I'd like to own my own business" but realistically, how many people would like to own their own business now in this current climate? I bet the dreamers will lay off a bit in the current era and the redundant folks who want to do something about it - a lot of them will fail and get the idea out of their system and then some will do ok and some will do better etc etc.

On another note, I also think most people as individuals have something to offer in it's most basic form. Everyone can learn from everyone in their own little way. The idiot in the corner who can't count and never takes anything seriously can even be learned from in a tiny way.

Although I think Roper is mainly going on about the "Tony Quinn" brigade or similar ridiculous things.

fithealth

That's exactly why I chose to develop my services with CHEK training. It is important that all areas - stress, physical fitness, mental and emotional can work together. We're a system of systems aren't we? Also gives me the ability to recognise issues (emotional eating e.g.) and refer clients to someone else to guide the client into getting healthier in ALL areas of their life - EFT is a great example.

Transform

mannnnn the last lecture i went to see paul check and he was off the WALL silly!!

He was good a few years back but i think he is completely gone off into areas that no one wants to touch e.g. getting people to return back to crawling to 'cure' back problems and into very spiritual areas that i went into the lecture wanting fitness/nutrition info NOT being told that he gets clients to paint a picture during workouts.

Bonkers stuff IMO (lecture was at fitpro convention infront of 200-300 fitness people)

fithealth

each to his own - I think that we dismiss and call 'silly' things we often don't understand or are outside our comfort zone - and that's exactly the point! If as a professional you're not going to be open to other aspects of knowledge, or issues with a client say, then should you be dismissing it or someone who is expert at it out of hand? Fairly dangerous mindset to have....

cowzerp

fithealth wrote: »

each to his own - I think that we dismiss and call 'silly' things we often don't understand or are outside our comfort zone - and that's exactly the point! If as a professional you're not going to be open to other aspects of knowledge, or issues with a client say, then should you be dismissing it or someone who is expert at it out of hand? Fairly dangerous mindset to have....

Although i understand what your saying, whacky is whacky no matter what way you spin it, trainers jobs are to train and to get on with there clients in my opinion..

not paint pictures etc..

fithealth

This is great though - the 'whacky' ones have moved society forward - Darwin, Einstein, Newton...the list goes on! If the picture painting gets results and helps his client then on with it! It may not be for you or me - but when always based on sound knowledge and science methods evolve and we must not throw out the baby with the bathwater!

cowzerp

fithealth wrote: »

This is great though - the 'whacky' ones have moved society forward - Darwin, Einstein, Newton...the list goes on! If the picture painting gets results and helps his client then on with it! It may not be for you or me - but when always based on sound knowledge and science methods evolve and we must not throw out the baby with the bathwater!

In this case i'll throw the baby out with the Bathwater if you dont mind.

Transform

Fair enough so give me some examples of where you have used 'check' methods to get in better shape.

Again i am saying i like much of his early work but his most recent is just off the wall and i can dig up notes from a number of lectures i went to see him to give perfectly good examples.

As far as open minded goes - i would not have gone back to his other lectures if i thought there was something to learn but the more he talked the more i was turned off.

The following is from the good man himself - Paul Check
In order for a human being to have a full life, a full experience of God's creation, the universe around us and the earth beneath our feet, you have got to clean up, purify, and fine tune your body to the point where you have access to the truth. When I say truth I mean what's going on at all levels of reality.

Can you feel the chi moving through the soil when you stand on the grass? Can you communicate with plants and trees? Can feel the energy fields on human beings and animals? Can you feel a bird fly by or can you only see it?

These are all things that are very normal experiences for healthy people with a spiritual life who are in sound physical health.

Now i would agree with much of the above to a certain degree (i meditate regualarly etc and aim to 'stay in the present' ala Tolle) but to try and teach this to clients is a little off putting.

Again i really like some of his stuff but others are too much for trainers to become spiritual leaders. Plus you have come on here saying i am not open minded not knowing a single thing about me and my own work. Not too fair really

Roper

Wow, comparing Paul Chek with Darwin eh? Smitten are we?

Transform

In one of his books he compares himself to einstein also

He has done excellent work in the past but i certainly would not consider his courses and become a checkkie

Hanley

fithealth wrote: »

each to his own - I think that we dismiss and call 'silly' things we often don't understand or are outside our comfort zone - and that's exactly the point! If as a professional you're not going to be open to other aspects of knowledge, or issues with a client say, then should you be dismissing it or someone who is expert at it out of hand? Fairly dangerous mindset to have....

Just as dangerous to blindly follow and think he has all the answers because he's an "expert"...