Trainee contract with smaller firms

Dandelion6

Hi, just looking for a bit of guidance. I know the big firms recruit trainee solicitors 1+ years in advance. How does it usually work with the smaller firms? (By which I mean, everything from very small to medium, but it's the smaller ones I'm more interested in.)

Just wondering when I should get my CVs into these places, if I'm not going to be ready to start my apprenticeship for a while. I currently have 4 FE1s, sitting the last four in the autumn (fingers crossed), would be hoping to start Blackhall in 2010 and if I can, I would prefer to wait until as close as possible to then to leave my current job and start training.

Obviously I know a lot of them aren't taking on trainees at all at the moment so please don't reply just to tell me that

Arsenal1986

As far as i know there is no set time these size firms recruit, especially the very small, its more a case of if they think the work is there they'll start looking at people applying for apprenticeships

McCrack

Like the other person said and you get the best training in small general practices where you will be thrown in neck deep from the start and it's sink or swim but it's really up to you to swim.

If I was ever to be in a position to be hiring a NQ I'd take one who did their training in a small practice over one from a medium or 'Big-5".

Dante09

That's a bit silly dont you think? I mean, conversely a partner at a Big 5 can say that he'd take on someone who had trained at a Big 5 over someone who trained in a GP?
I suppose it depends completely on the area of law you wish to go into.
It is not beyond reason that someone training at a GP would be thrown in the deep end from the off as opposed to someone at a Big 5 being "eased in" so in theory the former would get "better training". But how could someone at a big 5 be thrown in the deep end the first minute they walk in the door and told to work on transactions that could be worth 100m euro??
It completely depends on the area you wish to work in after qualification.

Sangre

McCrack wrote: »

Like the other person said and you get the best training in small general practices where you will be thrown in neck deep from the start and it's sink or swim but it's really up to you to swim.

If I was ever to be in a position to be hiring a NQ I'd take one who did their training in a small practice over one from a medium or 'Big-5".

No doubt being thrown in at the deep end makes them experts on M&A, competition and commercial law.

You should hire people who have the skills you need. Different places will give different skills.

legal eagle 1

There is no precise time as to when you should be applying to these firms but, around December and April are good times because thats when other apprentices mainly qualify and the firm may wish to replace them. That said my personal experience with the very small firms is that the only way in the door to most of them is through connections and connections alone, now I know some ppl will argue with me on this but, it has been my experience with most, if not all of the ones I've tried (and there have been alot!) So, in that regard I would advise you if you did have any connections in the legal world etc. to get working on them if you really want to get a training contract in a small firm;)

McCrack

Well I've little faith an apprentice gets from a 'Big 5'. I know people who have done their training in them and not once and I mean not on one single occasion did they ever meet a client face to face nor attend consultation/settlement/motions/trials.

I know of another 'Big 5' who happens to have a 'partner' who is famous both nationally and internationally. This individual qualified in the late '50's and never practised.
They get one of their trainees to read the print media each day looking for anything defamatory said about this 'partner'.

I do wonder why so many people want to get into these firms only to become an ant in a colony.

legal eagle 1

McCrack you obviously didn't get your training in one of the 'big 5' firms
I totally see the appeal of the 'Big 5' firms to alot of people, they deal with huge cases, have tonnes of excpertise in every area. Their traininig programmes for trainees are exceptional, they are well structured and supported and you get allocated time in all departments, I'm not sure the extent of expertise would be available to a person in a small firm. I think the 'big 5' firms suit some people and small/medium firms suit others. I think your comments will be heavily critcised by others!!!

Dante09

An ant in a colony?
Funny man...
Or maybe you're just a little bitter knowing that the work you do will never be as complex, specialized, intriguing and rewarding, let alone be worth even a fraction of what the work in an "ant colony" is worth.
The reason i tried so hard to get into a big 5 was to work alongside and learn from the people who wrote the books that i read in college-ie: The best of the best.

johnfás

McCrack wrote: »

Well I've little faith an apprentice gets from a 'Big 5'. I know people who have done their training in them and not once and I mean not on one single occasion did they ever meet a client face to face nor attend consultation/settlement/motions/trials.

I know of another 'Big 5' who happens to have a 'partner' who is famous both nationally and internationally. This individual qualified in the late '50's and never practised.
They get one of their trainees to read the print media each day looking for anything defamatory said about this 'partner'.

I do wonder why so many people want to get into these firms only to become an ant in a colony.

I'm glad you didn't name that person and they aren't a partner in that firm, nor does the firm claim that they are - a different title is given to them on all documentation.

McCrack

johnfás yes my bad, a chairperson I believe they are titled, I'll check their letterhead again.

Dante09 best not to make any assumptions about my work. There is absolutely nothing wrong with specialising post-qualification but good, solid training is required first and some PQE built up in general practice.
That makes a good solicitor in my book.

I mean really and truely imagine doing professional training over two years and never meeting a client or seeing the inside of a courtroom??

Horses for courses I guess.

Dante09

Im not making any assumptions about your work, get over yourself, this is an anonymous forum. That's like me saying to you "dont label big 5 trainees as ants in colonies". Nothing personal

You know, they have litigation departments in these places and trainees are required to do a seat in them. I think the label "litigation" is self-explanatory. Ive met plenty of my future colleagues who are currently doing seats in said department and they sure as hell were not complaining about their lack of experience of court work (which in turn suggests that they would have met with clients).

Like i said, i think most would agree that larger firms provide more structured training and a much higher caliber of work at, as you say the expense of being "eased into things"...but common sense would suggest that there is no other way of introducing a trainee in his first month of training to a multi-million euro merger, or the representation of a client at injunction proceedings who has been paying the supervising partner €500+ an hour for his experteese in antoin pillar orders.

McCrack

Well like I said horses for courses.

My experience and talking to others who trained in the bigger firms tells me that the trainee learning in a small (I'm talking sole practitioner and maybe one other solicitor) will get a far better grounding in legal practice than a trainee learning in a big firm.

In a small practice the experience gained with the client closer and more appreciable, the trainee will be given far more automony and responsibility by running their own files including signing off on letters, the trainee will be billing directly, the trainee will the learning and seeing first hand the intricacies of running a legal practice successfully. These are very important skills that a good solicitor should have learnt as a trainee and I don't believe bigger firms offer these to their trainees.

The burden and responsibility will be greater on a small practice trainee insofar as he/she will be expected to make professional decisions and as a consequence be more accountable for their actions but the personal rewards will be far better.

Jev/N

All I will say on this is that if you want to work for a Big 5 firm, you're better off training with them and vice versa

Dante09

Oh dear god, i dont think this is going anywhere. You just keep saying the same thing over and over again....and...you're 100% correct. However, what you describe as a trainees job at a small firm is simply inapplicable to a large practice where i assume, its a completely different kettle of fish!
There is no scope for learning as you go as there is no scope for error as a mistake in a drafted document could cost the firms client thousands.
The idea of training in a large firm is to accustom a young lawyer to working in a team environment with major deals/cases with a view that that lawyer will remain in similar CORPORATE practice for the rest of his career and will not move to a GP where a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT set of skills is required. The different training provided at each type of firm equips the trainee with completely different skills for completely different practices in completely different working environments. I could go on and on (much like yourself;))
If you cannot follow that, then pardon me for calling you narrow minded.

Johnny Utah

legal eagle 1 wrote: »

There is no precise time as to when you should be applying to these firms but, around December and April are good times because thats when other apprentices mainly qualify and the firm may wish to replace them. That said my personal experience with the very small firms is that the only way in the door to most of them is through connections and connections alone, now I know some ppl will argue with me on this but, it has been my experience with most, if not all of the ones I've tried (and there have been alot!) So, in that regard I would advise you if you did have any connections in the legal world etc. to get working on them if you really want to get a training contract in a small firm;)

+1, but you could say that for the large commercial firms too. I've seen it myself.

Dante09 wrote: »

Oh dear god, i dont think this is going anywhere. You just keep saying the same thing over and over again....and...you're 100% correct. However, what you describe as a trainees job at a small firm is simply inapplicable to a large practice where i assume, its a completely different kettle of fish!
There is no scope for learning as you go as there is no scope for error as a mistake in a drafted document could cost the firms client thousands.
The idea of training in a large firm is to accustom a young lawyer to working in a team environment with major deals/cases with a view that that lawyer will remain in similar CORPORATE practice for the rest of his career and will not move to a GP where a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT set of skills is required. The different training provided at each type of firm equips the trainee with completely different skills for completely different practices in completely different working environments. I could go on and on (much like yourself;))
If you cannot follow that, then pardon me for calling you narrow minded.

Oh really?

Funny that some of the large corporate firms have been laying off all of their newly qualfied solicitors recently, (only to take in a new batch of impressionable young trainees in their place).......... Maybe life in a small general practice is more appealing than queueing in the dole office after all?

Dante09

read that again, i said that theyll be trained with a view to remain in corporate practice not necessarily staying in the same firm.
Solicitors being laid off post-qualification applies across the board at the moment.

Johnny Utah

Dante09 wrote: »

read that again, i said that theyll be trained with a view to remain in corporate practice not necessarily staying in the same firm.
Solicitors being laid off post-qualification applies across the board at the moment.

Well, from what I've heard, there's little/no movement at all between any of the corporate firms at present. How can you stay in corporate practice if you're laid off with little hope of securing another position in a relatively small sector of the Irish legal profession? Surely, many of those who find themselves unemployed will try to transfer to general practice to give themselves the best chance of gaining employment.

You're correct about unemployment across the board too, but as far as I understand, newly qualified solicitors have a better chance of being kept on in small/medium size general practice offices.

McCrack

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Well, from what I've heard, there's little/no movement at all between any of the corporate firms at present. How can you stay in corporate practice if you're laid off with little hope of securing another position in a relatively small sector of the Irish legal profession? Surely, many of those who find themselves unemployed will try to transfer to general practice to give themselves the best chance of gaining employment.

You're correct about unemployment across the board too, but as far as I understand, newly qualified solicitors have a better chance of being kept on in small/medium size general practice offices.

Absolutely agreed.

People who train in biggers firms are cutting their nose off in today's climate, they have few legal skills transferrable to smaller practices I referred to earlier simply because they were not given the required training.

If a NQ wants to go into corporate or indeed any other niche their best bet is to get a solid grounding in GP and maybe a couple years PQE there and then move on, not the other way around.

Dante09

You're right, but i can only speak for myself and if im not kept on after i qualify (roughly/hopefully 2013) ill be looking for corporate work abroad and will not confine myself to ireland even if i have to sit more exams and I certainly will not be looking to go into general practice (not that i have anything against GP...its just not for me)

...but thats just me and to each their own

Dante09

McCrack wrote: »

Absolutely agreed.

People who train in biggers firms are cutting their nose off in today's climate, they have few legal skills transferrable to smaller practices I referred to earlier simply because they were not given the required training.

If a NQ wants to go into corporate or indeed any other niche their best bet is to get a solid grounding in GP and maybe a couple years PQE there and then move on, not the other way around.

no offense, but that is utter tosh because over 70% of the partners at the firm which ill be joining, trained at the firm. How can it be of benefit to someone who intends to work in intellectual property or shipping or whatever for the rest of his/her career to train in a GP doing conveyancing or family law??

legal eagle 1

[

quote=Dante09;60751190]You're right, but i can only speak for myself and if im not kept on after i qualify (roughly/hopefully 2013) ill be looking for corporate work abroad and will not confine myself to ireland even if i have to sit more exams and I certainly will not be looking to go into general practice (not that i have anything against GP...its just not for me)

...but thats just me and to each their own

[/QUOTE]

+1
I'm the polar opposite to this, all I want is to be in a general practice have no interest whatsoever in the corporate law world, hence reason my Apprenticeship search has been focused on small/medium sized firms. People who get trained in the 'big 5' McCrack dont want to work in general practice, why would you want to work in a world that is alien to what you have been trained in similarly you would find it tough finding a person in a general practice wanting to move to a large corporate firm! I think McCrack your very biased in your opinions that said if you ever consider taking on an apprentice.....i have connections to a very good one who loves general practices

skyhighflyer

It's often said with smaller firms that it's all about contacts. I think this is true to a certain extent, but to be fair you can't expect a small firm to have the time or resources to run a transparent trainee recruitment program, expecially where you might have the local bank manager/farmer/insert client here looking to get their son or daughter in the door.

Sending out CV's to these places is usually leads to nowhere. I do know of an associate, however, who wandered into a few places brandishing his CV and was given a 'trial run' and sent to the High Court on Monday morning to meet a barrister with some documents, and ended up being kept on, and qualifying, at that firm.

Think the best thing to do would be to actually go into the offices and try to hand your CV to a partner. There's a slim chance that they might be busy with work and could use a law grad for a few weeks, and then after that you could get lucky, or at the very least have a couple of contacts and a bit of experience that you could use to your advantage.

Dante09

Excellent points. That would probably be the optimal method of approaching small firms.

Sangre

McCrack wrote: »

Well I've little faith an apprentice gets from a 'Big 5'. I know people who have done their training in them and not once and I mean not on one single occasion did they ever meet a client face to face nor attend consultation/settlement/motions/trials.

Look, obviously you're not lying but you have to realise how ridiculous this sounds. The top 10/15 spend literally tens of thousands on training a trainee. What benefit would a trainee like that be? If you look at any Big 5 the vast majority of their partners would have trained in the firm.

Do you honestly think trainees aren't brought to meetings, consultations or trials? Forget when they are doing something decent but they have to be there for the grunt work. Who do you think is taking attendance, moving boxes, copying files?

Alright Bob, you're now a new qualified solicitor, lets bring you to trial for the first time.

Dante09

Yey! Somebody else on my side!

legal eagle 1

I think we've all established that the comments made by McCrack are not the case To the OP i think you should try and start working on the small to medium firms as soon as you can maybe try one or two a week but, take it from me you will be faced with abit of hostility and a lot of rejection but stick at it

Dandelion6

Thanks to all for the useful information ... and the side discussion which was interesting although doesn't change my feelings on the subject one way or the other!

As for contacts, my current employer has some contacts who I hope will be useful. He's not a lawyer himself though so he's probably as new to this as I am. What's the best way to go about it? Have him write to them saying "If you're taking on trainees please consider Dandelion, here's her CV" or what?

legal eagle 1

Hehe you got to see what some people in this industry are like anyway :DIf i was you i would talk to your employer and tell him your situation and see first if he's willing to help. Than,i think the best way forward from there is maybe to ask him to call his contacts or even go meet them in person and mention to them about you. Sending letters is okay but it is extremely easy for those letters to be ignored and dumped. Talking to a person over the phone and face to face is much better i find and it is much harder for them to say no. Even you yourself could walk in to some of your local offices and see can you get to talk to the main partner, granted this is extremely hard and can be very disheartening when you get rejected but, it may amount to something. Just to warn you though this search wont be easy and it takes a lot of time and a lot of determination and at times it can really wear you down but, just focus on the end result and hopefully you will succeed

impr0v

Dandelion6 wrote: »

As for contacts, my current employer has some contacts who I hope will be useful. He's not a lawyer himself though so he's probably as new to this as I am. What's the best way to go about it? Have him write to them saying "If you're taking on trainees please consider Dandelion, here's her CV" or what?

If his company is a client of the firm in question, a letter along those lines may go some way towards helping you.

Wheely

McCrack wrote: »

Well I've little faith an apprentice gets from a 'Big 5'. I know people who have done their training in them and not once and I mean not on one single occasion did they ever meet a client face to face nor attend consultation/settlement/motions/trials.

I know of another 'Big 5' who happens to have a 'partner' who is famous both nationally and internationally. This individual qualified in the late '50's and never practised.
They get one of their trainees to read the print media each day looking for anything defamatory said about this 'partner'.

I do wonder why so many people want to get into these firms only to become an ant in a colony.

Hah! Give me a break! I won't lie to you, I used to feel the same way about the top 5 firms, but i was younger and a little more immature.

There will obviously be positives and negatives to ANY situation be it a trainseeship or anything else but the fact of the matter is those law firms are rated the best in the country. And obviously thats because the business they are in generates such massive income that it allows them to expand at a far faster rate and dominate a much larger share of a much larger market than say the top family or criminal law firm in the country but those are the realities of the modern market place. They are simply the top 5 law firms in the country, its not even an opinion.

GP at the moment is suffering in a big way from the bursting of the property bubble, conveyancing has stopped and small town solicitors are crippled cos of it. Obviously the top 5 are hurting too, they are however more insulated due to the plethora of practice areas in which they operate.

Potential reasons for joining. many people cannot afford to pay the Law Society's extortionate fees or live on the measly minmum wage thats provided for by law for solicitors- a top 5 firm pays your fees and quite a decent salary while you train.

You are working with the best lawyers in the marketplace, in their respective areas.

The work ethic is second to none. Come out of one of these firms, and your notion of hard work will be changed forever, any employer is impressed by a prospective employee who's worked 14 hour days when needed.

And you are working on landmark cases some fo the time, changing the legal framework within which we all operate.


That tosh about trainees never meeting clients, attending consultations court etc, utterly untrue, most of my friends work in top 5 firms so i know for a fact.

Sorry..............;)

Dante09

Fully agree with you Wheely, but as far as this thread is concerned, you're fighting for a lost cause:P