7 days or 7 billion years?

uprising

http://www.allaboutscience.org/what-is-evolution-faq.htm

Theres another link boys and girls, notice this bit:

In reality, evolution is not without controversy. Religious objections aside, in-depth analysis of evolution raises doubts that the scientific community is hard pressed to answer. Evolution has never been fundamentally proven, and most scientists admit as much. Ironically, many evolutionists defend the theory using arguments once attributed to fundamentalist Christians, such as "it just makes the most sense," and "because I choose to believe it," or "because I refuse to believe the opposite." These scientists fill in the gaps in the evolutionary model using reasonable assumptions, something for which non-evolutionists are often criticized.

TheInquisitor

uprising wrote: »

Darwin's Theory of Evolution - A Theory In Crisis
Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a theory in crisis in light of the tremendous advances we've made in molecular biology, biochemistry and genetics over the past fifty years. We now know that there are in fact tens of thousands of irreducibly complex systems on the cellular level. Specified complexity pervades the microscopic biological world. Molecular biologist Michael Denton wrote, "Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, weighing less than 10-12 grams, each is in effect a veritable micro-miniaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery, made up altogether of one hundred thousand million atoms, far more complicated than any machinery built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world." [5]

And we don't need a microscope to observe irreducible complexity. The eye, the ear and the heart are all examples of irreducible complexity, though they were not recognized as such in Darwin's day. Nevertheless, Darwin confessed, "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."
Words from the man himself.
http://www.darwins-theory-of-evolution.com/

So all you experts here know more than darwin, he confesses its absurd

"Organs of extreme Perfection and Complication. To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei, as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certainly the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself originated; but I may remark that, as some of the lowest organisms, in which nerves cannot be detected, are capable of perceiving light, it does not seem impossible that certain sensitive elements in their sarcode should become aggregated and developed into nerves, endowed with this special sensibility.

Wow how selective you are my friend. If you had read the rest of the paragraph from that text you would see that he then goes on to explain how it might have happened.

philologos

mobius42 wrote: »

It seems stupid to me to say that the Universe can't have created itself and then say that God doesn't have a creator. Why does the Universe need a creator but God not? Why not use Occam's razor and cut out an unneeded layer of complexity by saying that the Universe created itself?

People have attempted to answer these questions before. However it is up to you whether or not you want to accept these answers as sensical.

The cosmological argument in particular deals with why God is a necessary being as opposed to contingent. Contingent meaning that it either can exist or not, necessary means that not only does it exist, but all other things are dependant on it. If all things are dependant on God for existence, there is no scenario where God could not have existed. That's the general argument.

I'd say look to Aquinas' Third Way, Avicenna, and Al Ghazali. A mixture of philosophers from Islamic and Christian backgrounds generally tried to put forward a rational case for how these things could have possibly occurred roughly from the 10th century onwards. Jewish philosopher Moses Maimonides also contributed to the discussion.

TheInquisitor

uprising wrote: »

http://www.allaboutscience.org/what-is-evolution-faq.htm

Theres another link boys and girls, notice this bit:

In reality, evolution is not without controversy. Religious objections aside, in-depth analysis of evolution raises doubts that the scientific community is hard pressed to answer. Evolution has never been fundamentally proven, and most scientists admit as much. Ironically, many evolutionists defend the theory using arguments once attributed to fundamentalist Christians, such as "it just makes the most sense," and "because I choose to believe it," or "because I refuse to believe the opposite." These scientists fill in the gaps in the evolutionary model using reasonable assumptions, something for which non-evolutionists are often criticized.

We believe the pursuit of truth is the highest calling of humanity. We are a collection of people who have wandered many paths, but all discovered that same truth. We are passionate about sparking authentic life journeys and sharing compelling content with skeptics, seekers, believers, and a hurting world.

We seek to be non-threatening, practical, and informative, using the technology of the Internet to pose tough questions and seek candid answers about God, Creation, Life, Humanity, Thought, History, and Truth.

Many people refer to us as “Christians,” but we consider ourselves followers of Jesus. Like Jesus, we reject many of the issues found in “organized religion” (man-made attempts to reach God through rules and rituals). Actually, we believe religion has kept more people from the truth than anything in history. Although we reject man-made religion, we consider the personal pursuit of God as tantamount in each of our personal life journeys.

I like how when i went to the about us section of this website i found where their claims were really coming from. Website owned by www.allaboutgod.com

How neutral

uprising

TheInquisitor wrote: »

I like how when i went to the about us section of this website i found where their claims were really coming from. Website owned by www.allaboutgod.com

How neutral

The facts remain, evolution has never been proven, its an idea taken as fact, believed as fact, but all in all not fact.

mobius42

Jakkass wrote: »

The cosmological argument in particular deals with why God is a necessary being as opposed to contingent. Contingent meaning that it either can exist or not, necessary means that not only does it exist, but all other things are dependant on it. If all things are dependant on God for existence, there is no scenario where God could not have existed. That's the general argument.

That statement is true, provided you prove that all things are dependent on God. If you can't prove that, then the statement is meaningless.

Earthhorse

Enzo Helpless Golf wrote: »

WTF are you talking about, troll? I had a treehouse when I was a kid.

But you evolved out of needing it as you grew up? That kinda makes sense to me.

Not a troll btw.

Mrmoe

uprising wrote: »

The facts remain, evolution has never been proven, its an idea taken as fact, believed as fact, but all in all not fact.

I don't know where you get this from but there is an awful lot of evidence to support evolution.

mobius42

uprising wrote: »

The facts remain, evolution has never been proven, its an idea taken as fact, believed as fact, but all in all not fact.

Saying this over and over again won't make it true and posting links from stupid creationist websites doesn't help your argument either.

Evolution has been demonstrated countless times. Why do you think people need flu shots every year? Is God making new flu viruses to screw with you? We've seen the huge similarity between our genetic code and that of other primates. The only thing that remains unproven is various aspects of the mechanism of evolution. We find new evidence and alter the theory to take that into account. Through this, we build up a better picture of how evolution works. We know that it happens, we just don't know how all of it works yet.

Hagar

uprising wrote: »

The facts remain, evolution has never been proven, its an idea taken as fact, believed as fact, but all in all not fact.

Yes it has. Go to Holland, look at the height of them, all the little ones died in the floods years ago. If that isn't evolution in action then I'm a monkey's uncle grandchild.

4zn76tysfajdxp

Earthhorse wrote: »

But you evolved out of needing it as you grew up? That kinda makes sense to me.

Not a troll btw.

Not really, I was just too afraid to go back up there after I fell out of it one time.

HEY! Maybe that's why the monkeys evolved!

mobius42

Earthhorse wrote: »

But you evolved out of needing it as you grew up? That kinda makes sense to me.

Not a troll btw.

The reason you keep being called a troll is because some of the things you've said are so shockingly ignorant as to be unbelievable. In fact, I still don't believe that you're not a troll. For example:

Earthhorse wrote: »

And another thing; if man came out of the ocean billions of years ago...how come apes don't live in the water?

Earthhorse wrote: »

If we're descended from apes then how come we don't build our houses in trees? Can someone please just answer that question for me?

If you are not a troll, I suggest you pick up this book and learn what evolution is before you start trying to say that it's not true. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Selfish-Gene-30th-Anniversary/dp/0199291152/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245178904&sr=8-1

uprising

mobius42 wrote: »

That statement is true, provided you prove that all things are dependent on God. If you can't prove that, then the statement is meaningless.

And if you cant prove evolution then your argument is also meaningless, so maybe this debate is just as meaningless as neither side can prove anything. I said I believe in God, I cant prove he exists here or anywhere for that matter, but I'm not pushing fiction as fact, as the evolutionists are, when you have hard evidence, not presumptions maybe I'd be persuaded, but I think I'll see God before that ever happens.

midlandsmissus

I'm just looking at my co-worker scratch his arse in an uncanny ape-like movement.

4zn76tysfajdxp

mobius42 wrote: »

If you are not a troll, I suggest you pick up this book and learn what evolution is before you start trying to say that it's not true. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Selfish-Gene-30th-Anniversary/dp/0199291152/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245178904&sr=8-1

Richards Dawkins? The guy who writes about god all the time? Talk about a conflict of interest, ignore this canny trickster Earthhorse.

mobius42

uprising wrote: »

And if you cant prove evolution then your argument is also meaningless, so maybe this debate is just as meaningless as neither side can prove anything. I said I believe in God, I cant prove he exists here or anywhere for that matter, but I'm not pushing fiction as fact, as the evolutionists are, when you have hard evidence, not presumptions maybe I'd be persuaded, but I think I'll see God before that ever happens.

And if you'd cared to even read my post correctly, you'd have seen that it had nothing to do with evolution. My point was to do with the existence of God. Then again, as a creationist, you're used to ignoring things to suit your arguments.

mobius42

Enzo Helpless Golf wrote: »

Richards Dawkins? The guy who writes about god all the time? Talk about a conflict of interest, ignore this canny trickster Earthhorse.

That's the thing about science, you don't have to take his word for it. There are countless other books that would explain it as well, all based on the same evidence. I just suggested that one as I found it excellent at explaining how evolution works.

DTrotter

uprising wrote: »

Darwin's Theory of Evolution - A Theory In Crisis
Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a theory in crisis in light of the tremendous advances we've made in molecular biology, biochemistry and genetics over the past fifty years. We now know that there are in fact tens of thousands of irreducibly complex systems on the cellular level. Specified complexity pervades the microscopic biological world. Molecular biologist Michael Denton wrote, "Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, weighing less than 10-12 grams, each is in effect a veritable micro-miniaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery, made up altogether of one hundred thousand million atoms, far more complicated than any machinery built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world." [5]

And we don't need a microscope to observe irreducible complexity. The eye, the ear and the heart are all examples of irreducible complexity, though they were not recognized as such in Darwin's day. Nevertheless, Darwin confessed, "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."
Words from the man himself.
http://www.darwins-theory-of-evolution.com/

So all you experts here know more than darwin, he confesses its absurd

Alot of animals have much better eyes than humans. What do you think happened; all life evolved from a common ancestor or all species were placed on earth in their current or past (in the case of extinct animals) form?

uprising

Looks like evolution downgraded itself

Mrmoe

uprising wrote: »

And if you cant prove evolution then your argument is also meaningless, so maybe this debate is just as meaningless as neither side can prove anything. I said I believe in God, I cant prove he exists here or anywhere for that matter, but I'm not pushing fiction as fact, as the evolutionists are, when you have hard evidence, not presumptions maybe I'd be persuaded, but I think I'll see God before that ever happens.

Here is some evidence for you. Read it and you might learn something.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17520026?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

KINGVictor

IF the Darwin's theory of evolution is to be believed,and lets assume that Human beings transformed from apes to their present likeness,it would also mean that this has to be a continuous process...then I have 2 questions.

1.Are humans as we know them today going to transform or evolve into an higher being given the fact that we came from apes.

2.Are the apes and several other animals going to make this scientifical,gradual transition to be humans or maybe something different at natures whims.

Or has the process stopped since the evolution theorists shouted eureka!

uprising

Mrmoe wrote: »

Here is some evidence for you. Read it and you might learn something.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17520026?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Anything with .gov I wouldnt be interested in looking at.

Genesis
6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhTPxnjgtAM&feature=fvw

turn the sound down

dr.bollocko

I think many people are misunderstanding what Darwin tried to set out. He didn't go do far as to postulate why this was happening. He just recognised and studied a behaviour. Species are adapting, changing to suit their environment overtime. At the very least one must accept this as truth. If you don't you are so blind to all evidence that there is no help for you. He kinda left the rest open to questons.

philologos

mobius42 wrote: »

That statement is true, provided you prove that all things are dependent on God. If you can't prove that, then the statement is meaningless.

You can read the literature from the people I cited if you want to see their reasoning on it.

I'd recommend An Introduction to the Philosophy of Religion by Brian Davies, or for a more complete view Philosophy of Religion - A guide and anthology by Brian Davies.

This contains lots of sources from the original authors and commentary and debate from modern atheists and theists.

For Moses Maimonides you can read his Guide for the Perplexed in full on Google Books and it is downloadable in PDF form. It's a bit more Jewish based but is understandable. Maimonides also wrote the Mishna Torah which is oneo f the most important rabbinical texts in Modern Judaism.

Donkathon

uprising wrote: »

Looks like evolution downgraded itself

+1 lol

DTrotter

KINGVictor wrote: »

IF the Darwin's theory of evolution is to be believed,and lets assume that Human beings transformed from apes to their present likeness,it would also mean that this has to be a continuous process...then I have 2 questions.

1.Are humans as we know them today going to transform or evolve into an higher being given the fact that we came from apes.

2.Are the apes and several other animals going to make this scientifical,gradual transition to be humans or maybe something different at natures whims.

Or has the process stopped since the evolution theorists shouted eureka!

Humans didn't transform from apes, both of us decended from a common ancestor, our closest ancestor is the chimp. The thing that set humans apart is our brain capacity.
Why would any other animal become close to human? We are not the pinnacle of evolution, alot of species have been around longer than humans and many will outlive us.
It's hard to measure evolution in humans as we live relatively long and it's hard to measure any change. That's why alot of research is done with fruit flies and microbes, they can breed within a short time frame and changes can be seen after a small number of generations.
One biologist claimed recently that evolution in humans has more or less stopped due to advances in medicine, in the past people with genetic diseases may not have lived as long.

uprising

If evolution were to believed, would not humans that live in cold places still be hairy and the ones in the tropics not, so eskimos and mongolian people etc should have kept their hairy bodies, and why do we need airoplanes to fly?, surely humans would be better if they could have had wings, save all that walking and running from dinosaurs, or maybe wheels instead of legs.

DTrotter

uprising wrote: »

If evolution were to believed, would not humans that live in cold places still be hairy and the ones in the tropics not, so eskimos and mongolian people etc should have kept their hairy bodies, and why do we need airoplanes to fly?, surely humans would be better if they could have had wings, save all that walking and running from dinosaurs, or maybe wheels instead of legs.

Icarus died, god didn't give us wheels did he, or maybe the giants were too heavy.

uprising

DTrotter wrote: »

One biologist claimed recently that evolution in humans has more or less stopped due to advances in medicine, in the past people with genetic diseases may not have lived as long.

What about the tribes lost deep in the jungles and forests, with no other contact untill recently, they should be still evolving, more advanced biologically as they never got any of the advances in medicine we westeners have, and therefore should be still evolving

dr.bollocko

uprising wrote: »

If evolution were to believed, would not humans that live in cold places still be hairy and the ones in the tropics not, so eskimos and mongolian people etc should have kept their hairy bodies, and why do we need airoplanes to fly?, surely humans would be better if they could have had wings, save all that walking and running from dinosaurs, or maybe wheels instead of legs.

That argument falls about 200 feet short of making any sense whatsoever. Or even being worth refuting.