Religion is not a private matter?

ScumLord

faceman wrote: »

IMO your spiritual beliefs are your own business. However If someone says to me "Ill say a prayer that you'll be ok", I interpret that as the individual has me in their thoughts and is wishing me a quick recovery.

Thinking anything otherwise is just a bit bonkers IMO.

It's true, I think it's a nice thing for someone to take time out of their day to sit down and dedicate their thoughts to your well being. It mightn't actually do any good but it is an honorable thing to do for someone.

Zombrex

ScumLord wrote: »

It's true, I think it's a nice thing for someone to take time out of their day to sit down and dedicate their thoughts to your well being. It mightn't actually do any good but it is an honorable thing to do for someone.

I would be some what concerned that the person though it would do some good though, if I was in that persons care.

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote: »

I would be some what concerned that the person though it would do some good though, if I was in that persons care.

I think you just look for any possible reason to object tbh. I can't believe, that you would think the above Each to their own I suppose.

Seriously though, and I wont argue with you. Would you really be concerned if someone who was caring for you had faith in the power of prayer? You think it may lead to them leaving you in Gods hands? That they are obviously idiots for believing in a sky fairy, and you don't want an idiot looking after you?

ScumLord

Wicknight wrote: »

I would be some what concerned that the person though it would do some good though, if I was in that persons care.

You can't just assume everyone who's been brought up with beliefs is a nut bag. I'd say there's a huge percentage of "believers" that just haven't bothered questioning their believes because it's not really that important to them.

And anyway if someones bright enough to become a nurse/doctor and is good at their job I'd have faith in their education.

toiletduck

JimiTime wrote: »

Would you really be concerned if someone who was caring for you had faith in the power of prayer?

I personally wouldn't. Although I just hope that the person would pray at the right time, http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,510460,00.html :pac:

dvpower

JimiTime wrote: »

Would you really be concerned if someone who was caring for you had faith in the power of prayer?

Not at all. It would be a bit of an oddity for me, that's about all. But others might take a different view. For example if someone from a fringe religion, maybe a wiccan from the paganism forum, was to offer to 'pray' for a patient, some might take offence.

I think this stems from the case of the nurse in England who was suspended for offering to pray for a patient. Suspension seems a bit harsh, but they were the rules that her employer laid down, and she did have the option to either opt-out of the praying or opt-out of that job, so everyones a winner, right?

Zombrex

ScumLord wrote: »

You can't just assume everyone who's been brought up with beliefs is a nut bag.

I don't, and I get annoyed by that position because that is actually what believers make out is the secular position when it really isn't.

I don't think every religious person is an issue. But I think some of them are. The point that is ignored is that you often cannot tell which one is going to be an issue until it is an issue.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

I think you just look for any possible reason to object tbh. I can't believe, that you would think the above Each to their own I suppose.

I think that is because you guys all seem to think I'm objecting as if it were a massive threat or something. I'm not.

If it was a choice between a deeply religious nurse and no nurse at all I would happily take the deeply religious nurse.

The biggest objection I have to any of these sort of debates is that the other side always make a straw man out of how outraged secularists are seemingly acting.

Using an example today if I saw someone let their dog poop in the park and walk away I would think that is bad form. I wouldn't think it is going to cause someone to die, go blind, rape a baby, suicide themselves etc etc etc. If someone who, for some reason, supported free dog pooping (they do exist seemingly) one tactic for arguing against that would be to build up the straw man that I was unreasonably outraged and making unrealistic threats of what might happen (what if someone slipped and fell back and broke their neck!) in an effort to disregard. When in fact all I'm going is saying it is bad form not to clean up your dog poop.

I hate this idea that you can't say something isn't on without others making it out as if you have just said X was going to cause the skin of babies fall off.

You got this in the other thread, me being asked over and over what is the harm in BC saying a prayer, as if unless I can come up with a way that it is putting the children's lives in danger it is perfectly fine.

JimiTime wrote: »

Would you really be concerned if someone who was caring for you had faith in the power of prayer?

Well yes, but again I imagine that is going to be blow out of proportion (I wouldn't be concerned that she was going to leave me dying in the ward while she prayed to Jesus to save me)

I think if you thought about what that actually means (a professional medical carer who believes that prayer will do something) so would you.

JimiTime wrote: »

You think it may lead to them leaving you in Gods hands?

She wouldn't be the first.

That is the kicker with this example. If she believes it works why wouldn't she believe it works

I think most if not the vast majority of people who pray do so in a sort of Catholic grandma way, praying more for their own peace of mind rather than because they believe it actually does something tangible and real. That I don't care about. If it makes someone feel better knock yourself out.

But if I meet someone who is deeply religious and actually believes that praying does stuff I would be quite concerned about this if my health was in that persons care.

I don't want someone caring for me who believes that superstition is the way to cure me. That applies to the nurse saying prayers for me or the homoeopath feeding me distilled water.

I would not want a doctor treating me who believes some discredited medical practice works, for very similar reasons.

Again I'm not saying this will happen, but the only way you find out it will happen is after it has happened.

There are plenty of examples where religious people have given up care of the sick to prayer under the genuine belief that God will intervene in the illness. And unfortunately in some of these cases the person has died.

Now in the HSE or NHS I would not worry that my care would ever get to that stage because the religious nurse would not be the only person caring for me, and the nurse might figure well I'm praying for him but we better do everything else just in case God is happy to let this atheist heathen die.

So again I'm not saying that in every case something horrible will happen. I'm not saying in every case something would happen at all.

JimiTime wrote: »

That they are obviously idiots for believing in a sky fairy, and you don't want an idiot looking after you?

Again with the straw man arguments. You just want me to say "Yes they are an idiot" so you have something to argue against (how dare you call them idiots, plenty of Christians are really smart blah blah blah) because I think you know that my objection to this is reasonable and I doubt you would want someone caring for you that believes praying for you to get better will actually do something.

Zombrex

toiletduck wrote: »

I personally wouldn't. Although I just hope that the person would pray at the right time, http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,510460,00.html :pac:

That is actually a good example.

The question here would be why wouldn't the man pray? Doesn't prayer do something? Isn't there a chance that God would magically make the plane land safely?

Can Christians explain why that man shouldn't have prayed (I think there was a discussion about this on the Christian forum, Kelly asking the other Christians why do they not expect miracles to happen)

I think most if not the vast majority of religious people do not believe prayer actually does something, that God doesn't actually supernaturally fix things through interaction with the universe or bending of natural laws.

But some religious people, deeply religious people, certainly do.

And if you believe these things do actually happen why would you not pray?

So I certainly think it raises an eyebrow if you meet someone in a position of responsibilty who believes this stuff works, in the same way I would be concerned about leaving my kids with someone who believes she can move things with her mind, or with someone who believes he has an angel protecting him.

I'm not saying lock them up, I'm not saying kick them out, I'm not saying any or even the majority would ever do something so stupid as to put lives at risk like this pilot did.

But concern, yes I think I would stretch that far. A little bit of concern is healthy particularly when someone believes something supernatural very strongly and is in a position of responsibility.

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote: »

I think that is because you guys all seem to think I'm objecting as if it were a massive threat or something. I'm not.

If it was a choice between a deeply religious nurse and no nurse at all I would happily take the deeply religious nurse.

The biggest objection I have to any of these sort of debates is that the other side always make a straw man out of how outraged secularists are seemingly acting.

Using an example today if I saw someone let their dog poop in the park and walk away I would think that is bad form. I wouldn't think it is going to cause someone to die, go blind, rape a baby, suicide themselves etc etc etc. If someone who, for some reason, supported free dog pooping (they do exist seemingly) one tactic for arguing against that would be to build up the straw man that I was unreasonably outraged and making unrealistic threats of what might happen (what if someone slipped and fell back and broke their neck!) in an effort to disregard. When in fact all I'm going is saying it is bad form not to clean up your dog poop.

I hate this idea that you can't say something isn't on without others making it out as if you have just said X was going to cause the skin of babies fall off.

You got this in the other thread, me being asked over and over what is the harm in BC saying a prayer, as if unless I can come up with a way that it is putting the children's lives in danger it is perfectly fine.



Well yes, but again I imagine that is going to be blow out of proportion (I wouldn't be concerned that she was going to leave me dying in the ward while she prayed to Jesus to save me)

I think if you thought about what that actually means (a professional medical carer who believes that prayer will do something) so would you.


She wouldn't be the first.

That is the kicker with this example. If she believes it works why wouldn't she believe it works

I think most if not the vast majority of people who pray do so in a sort of Catholic grandma way, praying more for their own peace of mind rather than because they believe it actually does something tangible and real. That I don't care about. If it makes someone feel better knock yourself out.

But if I meet someone who is deeply religious and actually believes that praying does stuff I would be quite concerned about this if my health was in that persons care.

I don't want someone caring for me who believes that superstition is the way to cure me. That applies to the nurse saying prayers for me or the homoeopath feeding me distilled water.

I would not want a doctor treating me who believes some discredited medical practice works, for very similar reasons.

Again I'm not saying this will happen, but the only way you find out it will happen is after it has happened.

There are plenty of examples where religious people have given up care of the sick to prayer under the genuine belief that God will intervene in the illness. And unfortunately in some of these cases the person has died.

Now in the HSE or NHS I would not worry that my care would ever get to that stage because the religious nurse would not be the only person caring for me, and the nurse might figure well I'm praying for him but we better do everything else just in case God is happy to let this atheist heathen die.

So again I'm not saying that in every case something horrible will happen. I'm not saying in every case something would happen at all.



Again with the straw man arguments. You just want me to say "Yes they are an idiot" so you have something to argue against (how dare you call them idiots, plenty of Christians are really smart blah blah blah) because I think you know that my objection to this is reasonable and I doubt you would want someone caring for you that believes praying for you to get better will actually do something.

I said I wouldn't argue, so I'll stick by that. Thanks for explaining your position.

ChocolateSauce

Overall, public religious expression is low-ish. Public prayers are rare, and when they are held the debate is more an intellectual one than anything else; prayers before a Dail sitting may piss us off, but they don't actually hurt the people who are there. The same goes for prayers in hospitals and before games.

The place where prayers and public religion is truly deleterious is the place it is most prolific- the classroom.

dvpower

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Overall, public religious expression is low-ish. Public prayers are rare, and when they are held the debate is more an intellectual one than anything else; prayers before a Dail sitting may piss us off, but they don't actually hurt the people who are there. The same goes for prayers in hospitals and before games.

The place where prayers and public religion is truly deleterious is the place it is most prolific- the classroom.

Hospitals also still have religious ethos, which can have a real impact. For example, in the Mater hospital a few years back they decided to stop trials for a cancer drug because participants were advised to take contraception or abstain from sex. The board of the hospital argued that advising women to use contraception was against catholic doctrine.

--amadeus--

Urk, forgot I started this thread!

I think it boils down to appropriateness. I don't think it's appropriate to bring your personal "stuff" into a professional environment. Part of my job involves delivering training. I'm a vegetarian. I *could* use my platform and captive audience to talk about animal rights. The courses would still be good, people would still learn what they are supposed to and I would hope that most people would enjoy the course. In fact on some of teh courses I could work it into the content and I am pretty sure that no one would complain or object.

But it wouldn't make it right. I would be abusing a position of trust for a start and people on a course don't want to hear about animal rights.

It's exactly the same with religion (or any other strongly held but non-universal opinion). In a personal context talk about whatever you want but if we are in anything other than a social setting then you have a right not to hear my opinions and I have a right not to hear yours, no?

faceman

On a lighter note...

My mother is an actor and many years ago she was starring in a play being put on in Nairobi. The cast was multinational. My mother was and still is Catholic.

Anyway before the curtains opened on the first night she said to one of the american performers, "say a prayer now that we put on a good show". So he did. He stopped what he was doing, closed his eyes and prayed aloud. Turns out he was a Born Again Christian who kept his religious views to himself.

My mother explained to him after that the phrase "say a prayer" didnt literally mean say a prayer. He was quite confused.

JimiTime

faceman wrote: »

On a lighter note...

My mother is an actor and many years ago she was starring in a play being put on in Nairobi. The cast was multinational. My mother was and still is Catholic.

Anyway before the curtains opened on the first night she said to one of the american performers, "say a prayer now that we put on a good show". So he did. He stopped what he was doing, closed his eyes and prayed aloud. Turns out he was a Born Again Christian who kept his religious views to himself.

My mother explained to him after that the phrase "say a prayer" didnt literally mean say a prayer. He was quite confused.

LOL.

dvpower

faceman wrote: »

On a lighter note...

My mother is an actor and many years ago she was starring in a play being put on in Nairobi. The cast was multinational. My mother was and still is Catholic.

Anyway before the curtains opened on the first night she said to one of the american performers, "say a prayer now that we put on a good show". So he did. He stopped what he was doing, closed his eyes and prayed aloud. Turns out he was a Born Again Christian who kept his religious views to himself.

My mother explained to him after that the phrase "say a prayer" didnt literally mean say a prayer. He was quite confused.

She can thank her lucky stars be thankful that she didn't say 'Break a leg'

Hrududu

faceman wrote: »

IMO your spiritual beliefs are your own business. However If someone says to me "Ill say a prayer that you'll be ok", I interpret that as the individual has me in their thoughts and is wishing me a quick recovery.

Thinking anything otherwise or being offended by it is just a bit bonkers IMO.

I agree. To get offended over that would be over the top.

The other day I was on the train and a couple were sitting across the aisle from me. Two girls got on and sat in the seats beside them. I'm not sure where the girls were from but I think it was from somewhere in South East Asia. As soon as the train started moving the man sitting beside them started to talk to them about Jesus. I actually didn't hear how the conversation started. But for the 30 minutes they were sitting there he just would not shut up about it.

One of the girls interrupted him a couple of times to tell him that they were Hindu. She went to make some comparison between Jesus and Krishna and he stopped her. He told her she was wrong. She was very polite and tried to get her point across but he was so rude and arrogant about the whole thing. He kept repeating that Jesus had died for her and that she should accept him into her life.

It was such a strange thing. Because in real life I'd never encountered someone like him before. There are plenty online. But I dont know how those girls remained so polite.

bnt

There's a thread on the UCD forum, about how the campus was invaded by a bunch of Korean Bible Bashers today. They has some spiel about a "survey", a video, and some OTT Jesus ranting. Freaked a few people out, but I'm a bit sorry I missed it: I don't even have to say anything to offend evangelists, I just get this supercilious look on my face, I'm reliably informed ...

Ickle Magoo

My MIL often lights candles and says prayers for me & mine, it doesn't bother me - I find it quite endearing actually. As long as she doesn't expect me to light one or pray with her then I just take it as her way of wishing us well or good fortune.

I think that's when it becomes inappropriate, when others are forced to play a part in what is essentially, a very personal act - although I appreciate that some zealous religious people consider it their duty to tell or share their beliefs because they believe that is a caring and positive position to take or it just doesn't occur to them that anyone else would feel differently or object.

It would certainly worry me if a medical professional actually believed the power of prayer held any kind of significance to my recovery and I don't think it's appropriate for anyone to offer unsolicited religious prayer or guidance while working in their professional capacity - unless a member of the clergy - and even then, I would consider it inappropriate to approach someone who had shown no interest or declined from having such an interaction.

I remember being in hospital after having my daughter. I was pretty sick and I had to endure daily visits from a priest asking if my daughter was to be blessed. I said no thank you, I didn't want her blessed but he insisted on coming into my room daily and repeating the request. I was tired and sore and I certainly could have done without a blindly-impassioned priest invading not only my room but challenging my request on a daily basis - I can only imagine what people of other faiths must think of that kind of behaviour in a public place of healing.

faceman

Hrududu wrote: »

I agree. To get offended over that would be over the top.

The other day I was on the train and a couple were sitting across the aisle from me. Two girls got on and sat in the seats beside them. I'm not sure where the girls were from but I think it was from somewhere in South East Asia. As soon as the train started moving the man sitting beside them started to talk to them about Jesus. I actually didn't hear how the conversation started. But for the 30 minutes they were sitting there he just would not shut up about it.

One of the girls interrupted him a couple of times to tell him that they were Hindu. She went to make some comparison between Jesus and Krishna and he stopped her. He told her she was wrong. She was very polite and tried to get her point across but he was so rude and arrogant about the whole thing. He kept repeating that Jesus had died for her and that she should accept him into her life.

It was such a strange thing. Because in real life I'd never encountered someone like him before. There are plenty online. But I dont know how those girls remained so polite.

Jaysus, where did this happen? What a muppet! IMO religion doesnt make that guy oppresive, his muppet personality does.

Sam Vimes

dvpower wrote: »

I can't see how religion can be kept private.

Christians believe that those of us who don't accept Jesus Christ are doomed to an eternity in hell (or something). Imagine knowing that and keeping it to yourself? For some it must be like seeing an out of control car careering towards a pedestrian and not shouting out.

Religion should be treated like any other set of beliefs; like your politics or choice of football team, but its a free country; people can hold and express views no matter how strange they are. But there is an appropriate time and place and I think that was the (ignored / misunderstood) point of that other thread.

I don't mind religious people telling me about their beliefs, everyone has the right to free speech, but I object to the hypocrisy of thanking the above post while simultaneously saying "I'm just tired of OTT secularism trying to tell us how we should live our lives.". Just because you might think you have the one true path doesn't mean you should be encouraged to tell everyone about your beliefs and others should be silent, lest they "tell us how we should live our lives".

If you want to "say a small prayer before a game" you have that right but if I don't want to be included in it I also have that right. It is hypocritical to encourage someone who wants to include non-religious people in religious rituals and to call someone an extremist for saying they don't want to be included. The only person forcing anything on others in that case is the religious person, the secular person is simply trying to stop him.

Hrududu

Jaysus, where did this happen? What a muppet! IMO religion doesnt make that guy oppresive, his muppet personality does.

Twas on the Dublin>Sligo train about a week ago. It was the fact that he kept telling her that she was wrong and that her religion wasn't the right one that bugged me. He was just so obnoxious. But of course he said it all with a smile on his face so he probably thinks he wasn't being rude at all.

BrotherBoniface

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I'm not sure what it is exactly about the attitude above that I find hair raising but it is so totally alien to my own (lack of) beliefs that it really did take me by surprise. In fact if I didn't know the back story to the two posters involved I would have suspected a wind up.

I find teh idea of a coach - in a non-religious community team - insisting on saying a prayer with the team before the game to be totally hair brained. And while it might not bother a lot of people and I wouldn't be offended by it I certainly wouldn't want a nurse offering to pray for me (apart from anything I'd be worried about what she knew about my condition that I didn't :pac:). And I would have thought that most people - religious or not - would see that. They would have considered faith and religion to be a private matter, between each person and thier clergyman or god. But it seems thats not universally true. In fact some religious feel that they have the right to pull religion into every aspect of thier lives.

I'm not talking here about religion cropping up in conversation and someone defending or discussing thier viewpoint ("ohhh you've bought a CD, what is it?" "Oh it's an audio bible to play in the car..." type stuff). It's that some religious feel a need to trumpet thier faith even in inapropriate settings and totally out of context.

And then it dawned on me. When I lived in London I knew a few gay people and some of them had the same flamboyant attitude. Out and proud and they would let everyone know within minutes of meeting them that they were gay. Which was fine but if you'd just asked what they wanted from teh bar it was a bit out of place. Others though you would never know. It wasn't that they hid it or were ashamed it just wasn't *that* big a deal to them. If you asked about thier homelife they might mention say "oh I live with my boyfriend" or whatever but it was a part of them, not what defined them. The louder ones though (gross generalisation and amateur psychoanalysis) were often newer "out" or were younger and they seemed to be making a deal out of it more for themsleves than whoever they were talking to, it always came across as a bit insecure and needy. It seems quite common in minorities - the aggressive taking of the trait that sets them apart and glamourising of it. "Queer" and "queen" were once huge insults to gay men, now they are names for trendy clubs and have lost a lot of teh power to sting. You can't get a rap album without hearing the "N" word and Travellers here are fiercely proud of thier culture.

So - long winded (sorry) - but my point is could we see the attitudes above as being a sign that we are culturally transitioning from a situation where religion and teh religious are in an overwhelming majority and culturally set teh tone to a stage where it is now a minority practice? Or am I offbeam altogether, is there nothing wrong with this public declaration of faith, after all some on here are vocally anti-theist.

Mods - i would have put this in Christianity as thats the host forum for teh quotes above but in light of teh charter change I thought it might come across as Christian bashing, please move if its better suite to there, thanks

Interesting post and well written. I totally see where you are coming from, religion is such a private thing and so is sexuality. How did you find people's attitude to your sexuality in London as opposed to here?( I take it you live in Ireland now?) I mean is London more accepting to homosexuality than Ireland? Did the fact of coming out in London turn you away from christianity and turning to atheism is easier with dealing with your sexuality? I feel is it so sad that the gay fraternity in Ireland find solace away from religion(atheism) and not seek help from it. Remember, God is forgiving and will always welcome back his lost sheep, no matter what colour, white black or pink. I hope this helps