Religion is not a private matter?

--amadeus--

BrianCalgary wrote: »

...Religion is not a private matter...

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm just tired of OTT secularism trying to tell us how we should live our lives. From a nurse asking to pray for someone in the UK, to people on here telling us it isn't acceptable to have a small prayer before a game. I have to just sometimes sit and wonder what on earth do these extremists have next in line for us.

I'm not sure what it is exactly about the attitude above that I find hair raising but it is so totally alien to my own (lack of) beliefs that it really did take me by surprise. In fact if I didn't know the back story to the two posters involved I would have suspected a wind up.

I find teh idea of a coach - in a non-religious community team - insisting on saying a prayer with the team before the game to be totally hair brained. And while it might not bother a lot of people and I wouldn't be offended by it I certainly wouldn't want a nurse offering to pray for me (apart from anything I'd be worried about what she knew about my condition that I didn't :pac:). And I would have thought that most people - religious or not - would see that. They would have considered faith and religion to be a private matter, between each person and thier clergyman or god. But it seems thats not universally true. In fact some religious feel that they have the right to pull religion into every aspect of thier lives.

I'm not talking here about religion cropping up in conversation and someone defending or discussing thier viewpoint ("ohhh you've bought a CD, what is it?" "Oh it's an audio bible to play in the car..." type stuff). It's that some religious feel a need to trumpet thier faith even in inapropriate settings and totally out of context.

And then it dawned on me. When I lived in London I knew a few gay people and some of them had the same flamboyant attitude. Out and proud and they would let everyone know within minutes of meeting them that they were gay. Which was fine but if you'd just asked what they wanted from teh bar it was a bit out of place. Others though you would never know. It wasn't that they hid it or were ashamed it just wasn't *that* big a deal to them. If you asked about thier homelife they might mention say "oh I live with my boyfriend" or whatever but it was a part of them, not what defined them. The louder ones though (gross generalisation and amateur psychoanalysis) were often newer "out" or were younger and they seemed to be making a deal out of it more for themsleves than whoever they were talking to, it always came across as a bit insecure and needy. It seems quite common in minorities - the aggressive taking of the trait that sets them apart and glamourising of it. "Queer" and "queen" were once huge insults to gay men, now they are names for trendy clubs and have lost a lot of teh power to sting. You can't get a rap album without hearing the "N" word and Travellers here are fiercely proud of thier culture.

So - long winded (sorry) - but my point is could we see the attitudes above as being a sign that we are culturally transitioning from a situation where religion and teh religious are in an overwhelming majority and culturally set teh tone to a stage where it is now a minority practice? Or am I offbeam altogether, is there nothing wrong with this public declaration of faith, after all some on here are vocally anti-theist.

Mods - i would have put this in Christianity as thats the host forum for teh quotes above but in light of teh charter change I thought it might come across as Christian bashing, please move if its better suite to there, thanks

liah

You say "teh" a lot.

Overblood

Funnily enough, I've never come across any religious person "trumpeting" their faith while I'm out and about in TEH real world. Only here on boards do I see religious loonyness.

Zombrex

--amadeus-- wrote: »

It's that some religious feel a need to trumpet thier faith even in inappropriate settings and totally out of context.

They don't see it as inappropriate, that seems to be the crux of the matter. I suppose it is hard to see something that you feel as being the fundamental truth about the universe and humanity as inappropriate.

If you try to explain or try and get them to relate to how it could be inappropriate they get defensive and blame "OTT secularism" for trying to ban their religion or something.

Húrin

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I find teh idea of a coach - in a non-religious community team - insisting on saying a prayer with the team before the game to be totally hair brained.

This must be the biggest controversy on boards, ever! The practice may be strange to us but by the reports, it seems to work for the team.

They would have considered faith and religion to be a private matter,
between each person and thier clergyman or god. But it seems thats not universally true. In fact some religious feel that they have the right to pull religion into every aspect of thier lives.

Well the point of religion is that it is communal, not individualist. Which is why it causes tension in our western culture that promotes self-centering.

If you asked about thier homelife they might mention say "oh I live with my boyfriend" or whatever but it was a part of them, not what defined them.

With a lot of religious people, their religion seems to define them and they are happy with that.

achtungbarry

people on here telling us it isn't acceptable to have a small prayer before a game.

Reminded me of this case in Oklahoma.

robindch

Mod note -

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Mods - i would have put this in Christianity as thats the host forum for teh quotes above

No problem with me, but you should link to this thread from the other one (see the second point in this post). Ta.

.

Zombrex

achtungbarry wrote: »

Reminded me of this case in Oklahoma.

It is good that she excludes herself (and thus suffers bullying and segregation from the Christian community) because the prayer is clearly good for team (well the Christians at least), in fact what would be even better is if she just shut up about it and pretended she was a Christian and went along with all if it, no one likes someone who makes a fuss. Converting to Christianity, even better!

:rolleyes:

anonymous_joe

The only religious group that's ever been in my face are atheists.

As someone whose agnostic really, it seems to be quite offensive that a group of people try and change what I believe.

Zombrex

anonymous_joe wrote: »

The only religious group that's ever been in my face are atheists.

As someone whose agnostic really, it seems to be quite offensive that a group of people try and change what I believe.

When has an atheist ever been in your face? How does that even work when you are an agnostic?

stevejazzx

Húrin wrote: »

This must be the biggest controversy on boards, ever!

Tell me about it..no matter how it was explained to them they just didn't want to accept any wrondoing.

Galvasean

anonymous_joe wrote: »

The only religious group that's ever been in my face are atheists.

Absolute garbunkle! Atheists are not religious.

Iwasfrozen

anonymous_joe wrote:

As someone whose agnostic really, it seems to be quite offensive that a group of people try and change what I believe.

Believe ? Your Agnostic, how can you accuse atheists of trying to change what you believe when you're not even sure what you believe ?

dvpower

I can't see how religion can be kept private.

Christians believe that those of us who don't accept Jesus Christ are doomed to an eternity in hell (or something). Imagine knowing that and keeping it to yourself? For some it must be like seeing an out of control car careering towards a pedestrian and not shouting out.

Religion should be treated like any other set of beliefs; like your politics or choice of football team, but its a free country; people can hold and express views no matter how strange they are. But there is an appropriate time and place and I think that was the (ignored / misunderstood) point of that other thread.

Zombrex

dvpower wrote: »

I can't see how religion can be kept private.

Christians believe that those of us who don't accept Jesus Christ are doomed to an eternity in hell (or something). Imagine knowing that and keeping it to yourself?

Billions of Christians have been telling people they are sinners and deserving of hell for the last 2,000 years. I think it is ok if they stop now. Everyone knows

Húrin

stevejazzx wrote: »

Tell me about it..no matter how it was explained to them they just didn't want to accept any wrondoing.

Much like the posters in this thread who are responding to anonymous_joe's comment about atheists asserting their views about religion, 'in his face'.

JimiTime

dvpower wrote: »

I can't see how religion can be kept private.

Christians believe that those of us who don't accept Jesus Christ are doomed to an eternity in hell (or something). Imagine knowing that and keeping it to yourself? For some it must be like seeing an out of control car careering towards a pedestrian and not shouting out.

Its good to see such an understanding.

Religion should be treated like any other set of beliefs; like your politics or choice of football team, but its a free country; people can hold and express views no matter how strange they are. But there is an appropriate time and place and I think that was the (ignored / misunderstood) point of that other thread.

Unfortunately in that thread, people were confounding two seperate issues. Who Brian is and what he does, with Attempting to indoctrinate, convert, risk isolating others etc. The fact is, Brian is who he is. If his ways are merely annoying, get over it and move on. If you think they are damaging, join another team or complain to a relevant party if needs be. The fact is, the football team in question are just that, a football team. They are not religious, nor are they secular. Brian is who he is, and you either tolerate it, like it, or don't. I really do think that some of the atheists there overstate the 'problem'. This whole, 'yeah but he shouldn't' is neither here nor there. He does, and that is him. The club, the man, the players or the parents don't have an issue. In the real world, they don't see damage being done etc. They just see a good coach, who seems to care for the players and happens to be a very public Christian.

dvpower

I don't want to get into the specifics of that thread here. To be honest, its been done to death and there just isn't going to be agreement.

But theres a wider arguement as to what limits religions should put on the expression of their religion. I think that there should be some, in a similar way that I think there should be limits on political parties expressing their views, or any other group for that matter.

JimiTime

dvpower wrote: »

I don't want to get into the specifics of that thread here. To be honest, its been done to death and there just isn't going to be agreement.

But theres a wider arguement as to what limits religions should put on the expression of their religion. I think that there should be some, in a similar way that I think there should be limits on political parties expressing their views, or any other group for that matter.

I see where you are coming from, I really do. I don't see any need, or reason for the prayer. I 'do' think that it would be better if it wasn't done. However, this is not about religion, this is about a person. A person, regardless of his ways, seems to have the respect of all involved. Like others have said, when it comes to Christianity, it is not a private matter. I happen to believe that this prayer is out of place. Thats me though. I tolerate the fact that not everyone holds that view. So my next question is, 'Does it harm my child?', if the answer is yes, then I go about a few things. Talking to Brian and see if theres a resolution. If that doesn't work, talking to the club, if that doesn't work, taking my child out of harms way. If I think it doesn't do any harm, I swallow it, and move on.

Zombrex

dvpower wrote: »

I can't see how religion can be kept private

Keeping religion private, and secularism in general, is not about the evangelist keeping his religion to himself, it is about him not having a right to get into the faith of the person or people he is talking to.

This is a point that is consistently missed by those on the Christianity forum who see secularism as an invasion of their rights when actually it is attempting to protect those around them.

It is about privacy and equality more than anything, and a recognition that religion divides far more than it brings together (something else that is ignored in these discussions, that secularism originated to help stop religion on religion persecution and segregation, rather than something for atheists)

Religious information should be volunteered, not expected.

A person should opt-in, not be expected to opt-out.

stevejazzx

Wicknight wrote: »

A person should opt-in, not be expected to opt-out.

Like people who bring their guitars to parties.:o

Dades

LOL. They should be put out.

dvpower

Wicknight wrote: »

Keeping religion private, and secularism in general, is not about the evangelist keeping his religion to himself, it is about him not having a right to get into the faith of the person or people he is talking to.

This is a point that is consistently missed by those on the Christianity forum who see secularism as an invasion of their rights when actually it is attempting to protect those around them.

It is about privacy and equality more than anything, and a recognition that religion divides far more than it brings together (something else that is ignored in these discussions, that secularism originated to help stop religion on religion persecution and segregation, rather than something for atheists)

Religious information should be volunteered, not expected.

A person should opt-in, not be expected to opt-out.

I think in the public space, religion ought to enjoy the same freedoms as any other set of ideas and should be subject to the same amount of scrutiny and limitations (and sometimes ridicule) as any other set of ideas.

So, in approaching that question on the other thread, I compare it to someone saying a few words about the policies of Fianna Fail* to some kids before a match - it's just not the time or place (unless maybe if the match was organised by the local cumann).
*You can substitute the Green Party, Sinn Fein or the BNP depending on how you view religion

I also think that secularism is an invasion on the 'rights' of religious people, but it is an overdue invasion, because these are rights that they shouldn't have.

Mickeroo

JimiTime wrote: »

I see where you are coming from, I really do. I don't see any need, or reason for the prayer. I 'do' think that it would be better if it wasn't done. However, this is not about religion, this is about a person. A person, regardless of his ways, seems to have the respect of all involved. Like others have said, when it comes to Christianity, it is not a private matter. I happen to believe that this prayer is out of place. Thats me though. I tolerate the fact that not everyone holds that view. So my next question is, 'Does it harm my child?', if the answer is yes, then I go about a few things. Talking to Brian and see if theres a resolution. If that doesn't work, talking to the club, if that doesn't work, taking my child out of harms way. If I think it doesn't do any harm, I swallow it, and move on.

I resisted the temptation to get sucked into the thread over in Christianity. I personally dont think the prayer is appropriate given the circumstances, since the team are not affiliated with any religion, but the fact that the parents or the kids dont seem to be bothered by it......well whats the fuss about?

Galvasean

Húrin wrote: »

Much like the posters in this thread who are responding to anonymous_joe's comment about atheists asserting their views about religion, 'in his face'.

If I walked into the bee hive I would have no right to be surprised if the bees got 'in my face'.

grames_bond

Galvasean wrote: »

If I walked into the bee hive I would have no right to be surprised if the bees got 'in my face'.

why would you want to walk into a bee hive?!

JimiTime

stevejazzx wrote: »

Like people who bring their guitars to parties.:o

Heeey, I resemble that remark! cum baya.....

Húrin

Galvasean wrote: »

If I walked into the bee hive I would have no right to be surprised if the bees got 'in my face'.

So if you surf on into the Christian forum don't be surprised to find Christians who don't agree with you.

Galvasean

Húrin wrote: »

So if you surf on into the Christian forum don't be surprised to find Christians who don't agree with you.

Yes, that's the idea.

Goduznt Xzst

stevejazzx wrote: »

Like people who bring their guitars to parties.:o

lol... no truer words have ever been spoken

Húrin wrote: »

So if you surf on into the Christian forum don't be surprised to find Christians who don't agree with you.

The -ism for the day is: truism

faceman

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I find teh idea of a coach - in a non-religious community team - insisting on saying a prayer with the team before the game to be totally hair brained. And while it might not bother a lot of people and I wouldn't be offended by it I certainly wouldn't want a nurse offering to pray for me (apart from anything I'd be worried about what she knew about my condition that I didn't :pac:). And I would have thought that most people - religious or not - would see that. They would have considered faith and religion to be a private matter, between each person and thier clergyman or god.

IMO your spiritual beliefs are your own business. However If someone says to me "Ill say a prayer that you'll be ok", I interpret that as the individual has me in their thoughts and is wishing me a quick recovery.

Thinking anything otherwise or being offended by it is just a bit bonkers IMO.