House alarm install

congo_90

Not too sure where this belongs. I searched but felt this most suited. Mods feel free to move it though.
Anyways bottom line is I need a house alarm installed. quoted off eircom phone watch but I've done a bit of homework and a lotta people seem to have a negative aspect on this.
Anybody out there know anyone better? Its gotta be monitoring too but then again there's the issue of a potential robber interfering with the system if you understand what I'm saying.
I've ehternet access in every room which may prove a more reliable option for real time monitoring?
Anyways appreciate all replies

Victor

Moved from Accommodation & Property to Electrical

congo_90

Cheers. see if it gets any hits now lol.

KoolKid

Any Licenced company can install a monitored alarm system for you so shop around.

The Astec Fusion with Digi can text and/or report to central station for Garda response.
HKC can also do this but it is an older system with less features.
The Europlex SigNet 200 can do all the above plus wireless can be added & also has a web server which allow you full access from anywhere, including any mobile with a web browser.

congo_90

koolkid wrote: »

Any Licenced company can install a monitored alarm system for you so shop around.

The Astec Fusion with Digi can text and/or report to central station for Garda response.
HKC can also do this but it is an older system with less features.
The Europlex SigNet 200 can do all the above plus wireless can be added & also has a web server which allow you full access from anywhere, including any mobile with a web browser.

How would I source these? or would a crowd such as crothers be able to?

2011

+1 Koolkid

How would I source these?

If you want the alarm connected to a monitoring station, then you dont source it yourself. What you do is you get a licensed alarm company to install the system, only then can it be connected to a monitoring station.

KoolKid

Also note that buying equipment that conforms to EN50131 does not mean your system Conforms to that standard. It has to be installed by A PSA licenced company.
Also a point people seem to neglect is that the Standard is only valid for a year. For your alarm to keep that standard it must be serviced at least once a year.
Something your insurance company will be only too happy to remind you of in the event of a claim.

Merch

koolkid wrote: »

Also note that buying equipment that conforms to EN50131 does not mean your system Conforms to that standard. It has to be installed by A PSA licenced company.
Also a point people seem to neglect is that the Standard is only valid for a year. For your alarm to keep that standard it must be serviced at least once a year.
Something your insurance company will be only too happy to remind you of in the event of a claim.

While I agree with some kind of regulation, I have some fundamental disagreements with this whole licensing stuff. I installed an alarm 10 years ago and have hardly had any issues with it, cost me a fraction to install, has had almost no false alarms bar when the battery died, I still get 5% reduction for having an alarm (informed insurance it is not monitored or fitted by a reg fitter) I dont pay annually to get it serviced as there is nothing wrong with it, I have the engineer code/manual.
Why should an individual that is competent not be allowed to install their own alarm and say it is to the specified standard if it is to that standard.

I agree that a person fitting alarms for a fee should be licensed but why cant someone that understands or has the ability to fit an alarm to the standard not be recognised as meeting that standard.

KoolKid

Merch wrote: »

Why should an individual that is competent not be allowed to install their own alarm and say it is to the specified standard if it is to that standard.

Because it would not be to the Standard.:p

Merch

Thats my point, if someone can checka ll the boxes in the standard of work, then why are they required to be licensed to complete their own alarm??
By all means for people fitting it as their business, ie charging for a customer.

KoolKid

That being the case then licencing goes out the window. Anyone can install a system & say its up to standard...
Kinda defeats the purpose dont you think?
You are allowed to install your own alarm. But if you are not PSA licenced then it cant be certified to the standard.

Merch

Well, surely if a standard is being applied it is if it is technically up to standard?
If I want someone to supply/fit an alarm I would be happier that they are certified if I am paying them and as far as I am aware this is the case.
but if for some reason I can do the job I shouldn't be barred from being acknowledged from having met the standard if that's the case?

That would be like not being able to get insurance on my car if I service it myself?

I'm not saying I know everything I want to know about alarms, far from it. But when I have gotten quotes regarding upgrading they seemed quite high compared to the cost of the hardware (given the house is pre-wired already and I know what cost items were when I purchased them) Also I prefer to have complete authority over my alarm, guys were saying outright they would not give me the engineer code, in effect tying me to them for services.
Plus I am interested in knowing how it works, easier for me to fix small problems myself.

KoolKid

Merch wrote: »

Thats my point, if someone can checka ll the boxes in the standard of work, then why are they required to be licensed to complete their own alarm??
.

But your installation does not check all the boxs...
ie the one that says was it installed by a licenced installer..
ie the one that say the equipment must conform to EN50131. If your is 10 years old it probobly does not.

2011

if for some reason I can do the job I shouldn't be barred from being acknowledged from having met the standard if that's the case?

Yes it is a bit strange.

The funny thing is that it when you are wireing at mains voltage (as opposed to 12 volts with an alarm) you are allowed to wire your own house even if you are not a registered electrical contractor!! You are even permitted to get a completion certificate for it by paying a small fee to the ECSSA or RECI to come in and inspect it. Once you have the cert you can get it connected to the ESB supply.

Why do you want it certed anyway Merch?

KoolKid

You could fit the alarm yourself & get it serviced by licenced installer who could then certify it to EN50131.
But...
It needs to be serviced by a licenced installer every year to retain that standard.

2011

You could fit the alarm yourself & get it serviced by licenced installer who could then certify it to EN50131.
But...
It needs to be serviced by a licenced installer every year to retain that standard.

This is true Kookid, but he wants the engineer code! No PSA installer will do the above and give him the engineer code.

KoolKid

2011 wrote: »

This is true Kookid, but he wants the engineer code! No PSA installer will do the above and give him the engineer code.

And why should they.
I really dont get the obsession with engineer codes.
Do these people obsess about access codes for every other applience in their house?

2011

And why should they.

I agree with you that they should not give out the code.

I was just saying that your suggestion would not suit what the OP is looking for.

Merch

2011 wrote: »

Yes it is a bit strange.

The funny thing is that it when you are wireing at mains voltage (as opposed to 12 volts with an alarm) you are allowed to wire your own house even if you are not a registered electrical contractor!! You are even permitted to get a completion certificate for it by paying a small fee to the ECSSA or RECI to come in and inspect it. Once you have the cert you can get it connected to the ESB supply.

Why do you want it certed anyway Merch?

Well to get the extra 5% off the annual house insurance would be ok, but I think the savings of 5% extra off don't equate to the cost of getting it installed by a PSA certed person and the annual cost of servicing it.
I got a crowd in once to do a service and was charged for them to walk around the house and look at my sensors, not even bang on or tap the windows.

regarding codes, it's my alarm, its anti-competitive if I wish to then get a certed alarm serviced by someone else but the next service guy cant access the engineer section as he nor I have the engineering codes.
Honestly this PSA thing may have good aspects to it but there is more than a hint of protectionism about it also.
Would I buy a laptop off someone and let them then keep secret the admin code of my laptop from me? no I wouldn't.
If you cant understand why people are obsessed with having an access code to their own property consider the above re admin codes to PC's or would you want a car manufacturer to be able to limit who you get your vehicle serviced by because they kept some piece of information secret from you?
If I can fit an alarm for myself to the standard technically then what has being licensed got to do with certing or for that matter servicing (my own alarm?
It seems anti-competitive even for other alarm service, unless another service guy can get around this code?

KoolKid

Merch wrote: »

Well to get the extra 5% off the annual house insurance would be ok, but I think the savings of 5% extra off don't equate to the cost of getting it installed by a PSA certed person and the annual cost of servicing it.

Then you would be better off telling your insurance company you have no alarm. The 5% discount certinly does not justify the risk of your insurance being null & void in the event of a claim.

Merch wrote: »

I got a crowd in once to do a service and was charged for them to walk around the house and look at my sensors, not even bang on or tap the windows.

Then you clearly got in the wrong crowd

Merch wrote: »

regarding codes, it's my alarm, its anti-competitive if I wish to then get a certed alarm serviced by someone else but the next service guy cant access the engineer section as he nor I have the engineering codes.
Honestly this PSA thing may have good aspects to it but there is more than a hint of protectionism about it also.
Would I buy a laptop off someone and let them then keep secret the admin code of my laptop from me? no I wouldn't.
If you cant understand why people are obsessed with having an access code to their own property consider the above re admin codes to PC's or would you want a car manufacturer to be able to limit who you get your vehicle serviced by because they kept some piece of information secret from you?

It seems anti-competitive even for other alarm service, unless another service guy can get around this code?

It is not anti competitive any company or any engineer can still service your panel & put in their own engineer codes. If they are not able to do this then I wouldn't let them service your system.
Your DVD is your own property do you have the engineer codes for that?
Your washing machine is your own property do you have the engineer codes for that?
Your Mobile phone your own property do you have the engineer codes for that?
Your Microwave your own property do you have the engineer codes for that?
Can any company/engineer repair any of these devices ??? Yes
Please explain whats anti compeditive?

Merch wrote: »

If I can fit an alarm for myself to the standard technically then what has being licensed got to do with certing .

One again ,firstly , you can not fit it to the standard becuase a requirement of the standard is that it must be Installed or Serviced by a licenced installer.
Secondly regardless of your reasoning its the Law..

2011

Well to get the extra 5% off the annual house insurance would be ok

How much money is 5% equal to Merch??

I would guess no more than €25

If you forget to arm the alarm system the insurance is policy is null and void. Is it really worth that for €25???

if I wish to then get a certed alarm serviced by someone else but the next service guy cant access the engineer section as he nor I have the engineering codes.

The next guy can factory reset the panel. Then he can enter his own engineer code. It is not hard to do.

there is more than a hint of protectionism about it also.

+1

unless another service guy can get around this code?

As explained above, he can!


Koolkid:

Then you clearly got in the wrong crowd

+1
Get someone better in or do it yourself. There are plenty of good alarm companies out there now all looking for service contracts.

Merch

koolkid wrote: »

Then you would be better off telling your insurance company you have no alarm. The 5% discount certinly does not justify the risk of your insurance being null & void in the event of a claim.

Then you clearly got in the wrong crowd

It is not anti competitive any company or any engineer can still service your panel & put in their own engineer codes. If they are not able to do this then I wouldn't let them service your system.
Your DVD is your own property do you have the engineer codes for that?
Your washing machine is your own property do you have the engineer codes for that?
Your Mobile phone your own property do you have the engineer codes for that?
Your Microwave your own property do you have the engineer codes for that?
Can any company/engineer repair any of these devices ??? Yes
Please explain whats anti compeditive?

One again ,firstly , you can not fit it to the standard becuase a requirement of the standard is that it must be Installed or Serviced by a licenced installer.
Secondly regardless of your reasoning its the Law..

You must not have read all my posts? I get 5% off my insurance for having an alarm, I have informed the insurance company about the specifics of my alarm. I would get 5% extra off if it was fitted by a certed installer.
If by wrong crowd, then the GoldenPages should not be allowed to advertise non certed installers.

If an engineer code can so easily be over-ridden by another alarm installer then what is the point of it?
I made enquiries about upgrading my alarm and was told they wouldn't give me the engineer code, when I asked about servicing I was told I would have to use them! as no one else would be able to get past the engineer code (for security purposes)
I can get a code for my DVD, there are no codes for my washing machine/not needed if I am to change parts in it,I have the unlock code for my phone, it is my decision which SP SIM I will use.
Microwave as per washing machine.

You didnt answer about my car/PC examples I presume you dissagree?
Its anti competitive to lock out the owner from having full authority over something they have paid for i.e. influence who I choose who to get it serviced by.

What servicing needs to be done on a system that has so little in it? that in itself is a joke, I didn't need to do anything on the alarm I fitted for 7 years and I'm not a reg installer. I walk tested it and changed one battery in all that time. I don't think companies advertising themselves as security system installers will be doing anymore. Perhaps you as an individual will but for the most part people will not.
You could quite easily say nothing needs to be done to an alarm for 4 years and that still gives loads of lee-way.

It seems to me that the PSA is not for getting rid of the cowboys but protectionism of the business.
I would like to upgrade my system but I wont limit myself to the actual installer for servicing, maybe most people will be as well off without the code as they will tinker with it and not have a clue what they are doing.

laws have been made and over written, laws exist that are wrong, this law regarding PSA for all I know and can imagine has been made up by a lobby of security companies, as a vested interest that would be a conflict of interest. I can see this law driving people away from improving security.

Merch

2011 wrote: »

How much money is 5% equal to Merch??

I would guess no more than €25

If you forget to arm the alarm system the insurance is policy is null and void. Is it really worth that for €25???



The next guy can factory reset the panel. Then he can enter his own engineer code. It is not hard to do.


+1


As explained above, he can!


Koolkid:
+1
Get someone better in or do it yourself. There are plenty of good alarm companies out there now all looking for service contracts.

I think the 5 or 10% would apply to someone that had a certed alarm but the ins company would probably screw them equally if they didn't set it, I always set it even if i go down the road for 5 mins.

My old system wont allow me to reset the engineer code. I have been told it couldn't be by installers on getting an upgrade, got three qoutes at the time, everyone said the same thing. The prices I was being quoted and what I was being offered didn't give me confidence, ridiculous stuff up to 1700 for PIR's all over the place no contacts, I'd prefer do it myself.

I just think there are people out there that are not in this business but that are capable of doing this themselves and they shouldn't be limited from doing it by some rule.
Should be able to pay to get it certified. Ireland is a restricted market for many things.

2011

I get 5% off my insurance for having an alarm

How much does this amount to???

If an engineer code can so easily be over-ridden by another alarm installer then what is the point of it?

Do you not believe that the engineer code can defaulted??

2011

If by wrong crowd, then the GoldenPages should not be allowed to advertise non certed installers.

They are all "Licensed", but that does not mean that they will all do a good job. There are good and bad out there.

My old system wont allow me to reset the engineer code.

What make is it? They all can.

the ins company would probably screw them equally if they didn't set it

Correct, it is in the "small print"

I have been told it couldn't be by installers on getting an upgrade

Not true, but a good excuse for getting you to spend more money on an upgrade!

The prices I was being quoted and what I was being offered didn't give me confidence, ridiculous stuff up to 1700 for PIR's all over the place no contacts, I'd prefer do it myself.

Then do and you will save more than 5%

I just think there are people out there that are not in this business but that are capable of doing this themselves and they shouldn't be limited from doing it by some rule.

On thier own house, yes I agree

Merch

2011 wrote: »

How much does this amount to???

about 25 euros or maybe less, off the top of my head

Do you not believe that the engineer code can defaulted??

I recorded all the setting sin mine and couldn't get it back to factory settings.

If thats the case the whole engineer code thing is irrelevant, what would its point be if some former installer decided to go on crime spree and just default the alrm back to factory settings.

Obviously I don't have training in all this, and it is an area I would like to have had some experience, so I'm not saying it cant. But when I look at this objectively this PSA thing seems to have some good points and some holes in it too.

2011

To be able to factory reset an alarm panel you need to have the type of access that would means that you could destroy the alarm system anyway!

You need to be able to take the lid off the panel, remove factory resetting links, disconnect the battery and mains, sometimes short out legs of a chip on the PCB etc...

this PSA thing seems to have some good points and some holes in it too.

Yes

Merch

2011 wrote: »

They are all "Licensed", but that does not mean that they will all do a good job. There are good and bad out there.


What make is it? They all can.

Its an Aritech 350, I wanted to get it upgraded but the money I was getting quoted was silly.

[/quote]
Then do and you will save more than 5%[/quote]

I would be years, actually never recovering the allowance insurance gives me for having a certed alarm, therefore it doesn't save anything.


[/quote]On thier own house, yes I agree[/quote]
I agree, but if someone can they should be allowed to get certified, a simple inspection would be able to sort that out.

2011

I agree, but if someone can they should be allowed to get certified, a simple inspection would be able to sort that out.

I think that this would be fair too, but I dont make up the rules!

Merch

2011 wrote: »

To be able to factory reset an alarm panel you need to have the type of access that would means that you could destroy the alarm system anyway!

You need to be able to take the lid off the panel, remove factory resetting links, disconnect the battery and mains, sometimes short out legs of a chip on the PCB etc...


Yes

I have the manual for mine, I dont have it beside me but I am sure it said if an engineer code is set it has to be returned to the factory to be undone. defaulting can only be done if no engineer code has been set up.

Anyway, I'd planned to get it upgraded but the money being asked was outrageous, I'd prefer to do it myself as a project and learn about it.

2011

Its an Aritech 350

This can be reset! All alarm companies know how and should do it for you, but you cant expect him to give you the engineering code and cert it. I am sure you will find one that will do one or the other. If they did both they would be risking thier reputation.