Unethical practices/overcharging in Martial Arts

Boston

It is regulated. It a crime not to declare income. If you know someone you suspect of tax evasion contact the revenue commissioners. If you truely have a problem with it, it's a simple matter to fix.

BlackNinja

It's not all regulated as far as i'm aware and if i wanted to set up BlackNinja martial arts in d morning no-one could stop me i think (sorry if i'm wrong and please correct me ).
I know it's illegal in d tax respect but i'm talking about regulating all martial arts in Ireland because it's such a fractured sport
The non-declaration is predominantly as i mentioned small parish hall, rural run martial arts centre's and if someone is checking these people out they would catch quite a few!

cowzerp

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

i also think that it is wrong for TKD BB or other BB that have no experience in ground work to start teaching MMA but i was wondering, how do You feel about BJJ brown or black belts or judo black belts teaching MMA if they have no experience in stand up and i dont mean a couple of months in a boxing or kickboxing club, i mean competition experience in stand up fighting.

If a BJJ lad who never competed MMA was to teach MMA i would think it was odd, stick to BJJ if thats the case-same applies to any martial art, If you've no experience in all ranges then i would think its wrong to teach,

when i started my MMA club my BJJ was limited so i got support through BJJ Revolution who oversee what we do to cover that angle, I'd fought in MMA so at least nobody could question that, now i continue to study all areas of MMA and still have the support of BJJ Revolution who we are a part of and have enough grappling knowledge and experience to teach up to a blue belt level.

Any further questions just ask.

Boston

BlackNinja wrote: »

It's not all regulated as far as i'm aware and if i wanted to set up BlackNinja martial arts in d morning no-one could stop me i think (sorry if i'm wrong and please correct me ).
The non-declaration is predominantly as i mentioned small parish hall, rural run martial arts centre's and if someone is checking these people out they would catch quite a few!

You're mixing up two things. Even if there was a body regulation martial arts instructions, they wouldn't be responsible for ensuring the instructors declares their income. Thats the revenue commissioners Job. If you report someone to them whom you feel is working without declaring income, they will investigate. If it turns out to be true they will be fined and/ or receive a prison sentence. I'd imagine a lot of the people you suspect of not declaring income actually do so.

BlackNinja

Boston, i know personally from helping run one last year(finished now) that many dont pay tax and i wont call revenue because they'd know it was me unfortunately. I think its terrible though really especially for all the parents who pump hard earned money in on behalf of their children who love the sport to see much of it wasted away on personal gain.
As regards regulation i think it would b in organisations best interests if they regulated their schools properly and made them all pay tax. Who wants to have one of their instructors being criminally charged!
Its such a sticky issue that i'm talking about and i welcome any discussions ( )as i have been out of d Martial Arts circuit for the last year or so and some of my points may be outdated:o
Thanks

Boston

I really don't get what your point is though. Enforcing the law would never be a regulator's role. They'd be there to ensure dojos met a safety standard, that instructors attended seminars, that prices were fair. Over charging is unethical, not declaring income is illegal.

BlackNinja

My point is Boston that organisations should not keep or affiliate with instructors which do not pay tax, which is (as you pointed out) illegal. Theres no way an organisation can enforce law but they can certainly disassociate from those who break it. If they can make sure instructors attend seminars they can do the above

FUNKY LOVER

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that a belt is earned, not bought. You should never have to pay for a belt, unless there is a formal grading process - where the instructor is thrown a few bob for taking a day out to go through a series of gradings. And even at that, the cost should be minimal.

As for costs for training - If the training is solid, and the instructor is knowledgeable and you get something out of your training - then IMO - it's usually worth the cost. I have no problem with an instructor making a living out of what he does, provided it's a quality service. What I would have an issue with however, is an instructor who isn't knowledgeable charging high prices for something that they are unfamiliar with themselves.

Take for example that one club in Dublin (and I won't mention a name) They put up sparring videos on their website which resembled somthat was and still is teaching MMA, but yet the instructor had no experience himself.eone who's had a few beers, watched UFC and went out to their Garden for a bit of the auld "Ultimate Fighting". This type of nonsense is what needs to stop.

People do have the choice to pay the fees of training, but if someone is a newcomer themselves - then sometimes they can't distinguish between good and bad trainers. It's certainly not a black and white issue.

false.

Roper

There was a similar thread in the MMA forum which was asking if you needed to fight to teach. I answered "no" there. Equally, I don't think being a fighter neccessarily qualifies you to teach either.

As for what is or isn't good practise, I think there's a good deal of bad practise as it's an unregulated industry, but I also think that some bad practises only look bad and unethical because they're being done by "them over there" as opposed to "us over here". Martial arts are fragmented and can be quite bitchy as anyone who has been around knows. You can train the exact same way as someone and still be accused of getting soft belts, or being a rip off or some other crap.

I've heard two seperate rumours that I'd only be too happy to share about my gym/coaching and they're both sort of based on fact but through bad intentions, bitching and chinese whispers they've been made to sound like I regularly give my students Anthrax. The thing is I know that the alledged source probably said nothing, and it's just people we mutually know trying to stir a bit of trouble between us. It's like chinese whispers mixed with Eastenders.

So I'd save the soap box shouting about specific gyms until all the facts are in.

yomchi

No discussion of any clubs that are against boards policy. Next mention will result in an out right ban.

Sin é

yomchi

BlackNinja wrote: »

D'ya know the funny thing is that quite a majority of Martial arts instructors (know of Taekwondo from experience) do not pay tax or declare their income so it's going directly into their back pockets (minus a little for kick shields,insurance etc) and paying for lovely cars, holidays etc. Now granted it is not all instructors and i dont want to offend those who do it as they are a proper business, but its astonishing that with circa 40 students, a part-time parish hall job can earn c.€15,000 a year!!! I dont think its fair that some register and some dont. I really think that all should be made declare for tax and its a pity its not regulated more

Just on that, the revenue have turned up at large Taekwon-Do tournaments of late and have asked for receipts and the books, of which they took away. They are aware of the martial arts industry, as it is becoming.

In reality, I'd rather they tracked down the speculators, developers and corrupt politicians that have brought this place onto it's knees.

I would criticise an instructor more for not having a first aid cert, or having a cert in child protection to be honest.

BlackNinja

Thats good to hear Jon!
I would definitely agree with you on the politicians comment especially with the Dail now on holidays
I would live in hope that every instructor would have a first aid cert and child cert!

Boston

Jon wrote: »

Just on that, the revenue have turned up at large Taekwon-Do tournaments of late and have asked for receipts and the books, of which they took away. They are aware of the martial arts industry, as it is becoming.

In reality, I'd rather they tracked down the speculators, developers and corrupt politicians that have brought this place onto it's knees.

I would criticise an instructor more for not having a first aid cert, or having a cert in child protection to be honest.

Tax evasion is tax evasion. You can say they should go after the big guys (and they do) but if low level tax evasion is wide spread in the martial arts "industry" then thats a problem as well which could be collectively costing millions. If someone is charging a couple hundred euro an hour I fail to see why they should be given a pass.

yomchi

Boston wrote: »

Tax evasion is tax evasion. You can say they should go after the big guys (and they do) but if low level tax evasion is wide spread in the martial arts "industry" then thats a problem as well which could be collectively costing millions. If someone is charging a couple hundred euro an hour I fail to see why they should be given a pass.

Irish people with larger incomes don't pay an equal share of that compared to the rest of us.

If your income is €180,000 - you do not pay 6% on all your income - you will pay 6% on the portion over €174,980.

These are the big fish that need chasing through different legislation.

Anyway thats another topic completely.

BTW I am registered for tax, i'm sure I'll pay it some day... all i'm waiting on is a profit.

Boston

Jon wrote: »

Irish people with larger incomes don't pay an equal share of that compared to the rest of us.

If your income is €180,000 - you do not pay 6% on all your income - you will pay 6% on the portion over €174,980.

These are the big fish that need chasing through different legislation.

Anyway thats another topic completely.

BTW I am registered for tax, i'm sure I'll pay it some day... all i'm waiting on is a profit.

Thats what you have a higher tax bracket. We can argue the about the fairness of the taxation system all day, fact remains you're required to pay it. If BlackNinja believes non-compliance is a major issue, then he can report it to the authorities.

yomchi

Boston wrote: »

Thats what you have a higher tax bracket. We can argue the about the fairness of the taxation system all day, fact remains you're required to pay it. If BlackNinja believes non-compliance is a major issue, then he can report it to the authorities.

I didn't say you shouldn't pay it. If I thought that I wouldn't pay it myself.

My point is about priorities, the tax man would be better off if he chased these dudes...



...than the local martial arts club.

However, there are huge martial arts organisations in Ireland that are substancial businesses, these of course are a different issue all together.

Boston

Jon wrote: »

I didn't say you shouldn't pay it. If I thought that I wouldn't pay it myself.

My point is about priorities, the tax man would be better off if he chased these dudes...



...than the local martial arts club.

However, there are huge martial arts organisations in Ireland that are substancial businesses, these of course are a different issue all together.

It's an old excuse used whenever someone is doing something minor but still wrong.

"Why are you stoping me for speeding, you should be after the gansters" and so on. Revenue goes after anyone and everyone and you can be sure U2's books get well audited.

These things, if let develop can end up costing the state a lot of money. I see no reason why someone charging 12 -15 euro an hour per student shouldn't pay taxes like I do. If all your charging just about covers the costs of running then you won't have to pay tax.

yomchi

Boston wrote: »

It's an old excuse used whenever someone is doing something minor but still wrong.

"Why are you stoping me for speeding, you should be after the gansters" and so on. Revenue goes after anyone and everyone and you can be sure U2's books get well audited.

These things, if let develop can end up costing the state a lot of money. I see no reason why someone charging 12 -15 euro an hour per student shouldn't pay taxes like I do. If all your charging just about covers the costs of running then you won't have to pay tax.

If you wanted to use a garda or law example in a discussion about priorities for the state, you should know that the most resourced and financially back up department of the Garda is the Immigration Bureau - yes I do think they should prioritise the gangsters.

As for U2 - http://entertainment.ie/music/music-news-article.asp?NewsID=26364

This state is riddled with inequality when it comes to tax and the law, again I say I agree with you, but get the priorities right first.
€220,000 tax payers money is about to be spent on the next Lisbon referendum campaign.

I've no problem paying tax, always did.

As for these fcukers

Boston

You say priorities but you mean that they should just let you away. You speeding isn't as big an issue as gangland violence, but if they didn't police it, collectively you'd see a massive increase in road deaths. One martial arts instructor isn't as big a problem as a dodgy builder not paying employee PRSI, but if they didn't go after the small guys as well, sure no one would declare income from their side Jobs and that would end up costing more.

As for U2, fair play to them, they didn't do anything illegal. The existing laws allowed them to do what they did. If tomorrow some law came in which allowed you to illegal not pay tax because you work in the sports industry you'd jump at it.

yomchi

Boston wrote: »

You say priorities but you mean that they should just let you away. You speeding isn't as big an issue as gangland violence, but if they didn't police it, collectively you'd see a massive increase in road deaths. One martial arts instructor isn't as big a problem as a dodgy builder not paying employee PRSI, but if they didn't go after the small guys as well, sure no one would declare income from their side Jobs and that would end up costing more.

As for U2, fair play to them, they didn't do anything illegal. The existing laws allowed them to do what they did. If tomorrow some law came in which allowed you to illegal not pay tax because you work in the sports industry you'd jump at it.

Prioritising is not about letting anyone away with anything. Prioritising is exactly what it is, setting priorities and working from there.
In this country, the first person to be hit is joe public and his family.

You can live according to the text book, but sometimes reality isn't so straight forward.

If revenue needs money, go to where it is, in abundance.

Sean Fitzpatrick would be a good starting point!

Boston

Joe public make up the majority of the tax base though.

globalkb

the way I look at this argument is to compare the level of training the instructor put in with someone with a similar amount of experience in another job

ie a doctor does 7 years in college and charges the earth for a check up so is a martial arts instructor who has been training for 10+ years not entitled to charge for his expertise?

there are obviously a lot a puddings out there teaching when they shouldn't be but you will find they have very low retention of students long term

as for the tax issue, it is very off point, it would probably cost more in admin and revenue stamp duty to declare tax than the profit most MA clubs make. I somehow don't see the martial arts industry becoming the next venue for money launderers to hide their crime!

Boston

I think the problem is that it costs so much to run any Dojo / Training Hall that it immediately wipes out all those who would be willing to give there time either freely or at a small charge. Basically, if you're running a Dojo you have to run it as a business, you can't just rent a hall on the cheep, throw down afew mats and start training with your mates. As a result, prices are fairly high.

Nothingcompares

globalkb wrote: »

t

ie a doctor does 7 years in college and charges the earth for a check up so is a martial arts instructor who has been training for 10+ years not entitled to charge for his expertise?

this is the most ridiculous thing i've read on this forum.

silat liam

Nothingcompares wrote: »

this is the most ridiculous thing i've read on this forum.

In what way??

Nothingcompares

Joe Bloggs the average doctor in the local Irish hospital

-spent at least 4 years doing exams and other assessments regulated by a university (or RCSI) which have regulatory standards that are assessed by committees that have been constantly improved upon for decades; a procedure that costs thousands and thousands of euro

-spent 2 years in a hospital under the supervision of experts in specific fields (who themselves have gone through the above and much more) which is regulated by the irish medical council

-work in an environment which adheres to the highest working conditions standards (except perhaps working hours) under the scrutiny of independent organisations, patients, the government and the hospital itself

Pat the Martial arts instructor

-spent a couple of years training a few days a week jumping through loops in a organisation which doesn't have to adhere to any official standards until he get's an arbitary award (black belt) and starts his own club

That's my best attempt at dismantling the problems with that analogy and it might be full of factual holes and not very well explained but I think it get's the idea across.

A better analogy would to compare teaching martial arts to teaching arts and crafts. Should someone who has spent a long time learning arts and crafts be allowed to charge for their instruction? Of course they can, and they can charge what ever they feel the market will allow them to.

I'm not sure what the original poster is getting at. Does he have a problem with the lad teaching martial arts in the local community centre who makes 50 euro "profit" a month from it not declaring this 700 euro to revenue and paying tax on it? Or does he have a problem with those very few martial artists that run clubs full time as their primary (or at least major) source of income not declaring it to revenue?

Perhaps there are many people in the first category who aren't tax complaint. But again, it's mickey mouse stuff.

i'd be surprised if they second guy isn't though. Presumably they're registered as companies for VAT purposes so they'd be subject to the odd audit anyway. again don't really know don't really care.

whether the fella teaching me how to strike/grapple/wrestle is square with revenue is one of the lower priorities for me.

arybvtcw0eolkf

silat liam wrote: »

In what way??

You had to ask, didn't you :rolleyes:


lol, of all the people here - look who you had to ask!.


:P

Ug Lee

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I'm not sure what the original poster is getting at.

Who? me?

Boston

In a free market people should be able to charge whatever they can get away with. If you feel someone is over charging then you should enter the market yourself and undercut them. I've spent 4 Years getting a engineering degree and I've spent 2 more working towards a 4 year PhD. When I'm qualified I'll be 27 and lucky to earn what a 19 year old sparky earns based on a 2/3 year IT course they started at 16. I accepted this fact when I decided my future all those years ago, it's just the free market.

Ug Lee

Boston wrote: »

In a free market people should be able to charge whatever they can get away with. If you feel someone is over charging then you should enter the market yourself and undercut them. I've spent 4 Years getting a engineering degree and I've spent 2 more working towards a 4 year PhD. When I'm qualified I'll be 27 and lucky to earn what a 19 year old sparky earns based on a 2/3 year IT course they started at 16. I accepted this fact when I decided my future all those years ago, it's just the free market.

I agree what you mean about a free market. However where it relates to unethical practices in martial arts is where the price is kept hidden from the student until they are hooked.