Unethical practices/overcharging in Martial Arts

Ug Lee

I have heard that a lot of martial art schools/organisations charge what would seem to be very high prices for things. However while I heard it referred to, I never heard anything specific. I just wanted to start a thread where people might want to share their knowledge of what is being charged for things that would be considered a rip-off in martial arts.
Rather than just high prices for classes, I am talking about organisation fees that school owners have to pay, price of Blackbelts, expensive uniforms or anything that is seen as unethical by common standards.
Bruce Lee's brother

cowzerp

A girl i trained before reached her black belt in kick boxing in a club in dublin city center (dont know the name) but they would not give it till she paid her 4 to 500 for the belt, she came to me and could not punch at all and her kicking was nearly as bad-officially she was black belt graded bar the money.

dunkamania

IMO, coaches and instructors have to make a living from what they teach. They have the right to charge what they like, and their students then have the choice on whether or not they choose to pay that amount.

Furious-Dave

dunkamania wrote: »

IMO, coaches and instructors have to make a living from what they teach. They have the right to charge what they like, and their students then have the choice on whether or not they choose to pay that amount.

I agree to the point that a lot of people are trying to make a living out of running Martial Arts gym. But to pay up to €500 for a Black Belt is ridiculous. There are also too many people who care more about making money and running a business than the actual training and the quality of it. It's because of McDojo's that the reputations of Martial Arts decline. Karate (regardless of style) is a good example of this.

Jason Mc

We charge £35 a month unlimited at Evolve and have something on everyday

Now even if you only come 3 times a week thats works out at less than £3 a class

I think what most people don't really get is that the overheads to run a centre are quite shocking. You got rent, rates, equipment, electric, oil, insurance etc and that before you even think about taking a small pittance for yourself.

There are very few people around here making a big living out of teaching martial arts that I am sure off

cowzerp

dunkamania wrote: »

IMO, coaches and instructors have to make a living from what they teach. They have the right to charge what they like, and their students then have the choice on whether or not they choose to pay that amount.

I agree about the choice is the students but in lots of cases the students been told myths, lies and fallacys to keep them training and keep the money rolling in, any martial art that charges excessive subs is bull, especially when they also have big charges for grading, considering the student would have poaid there way through training to get to the grade then they should have already paid for it, at a maximum the charge should just be for the time the grading takes as the grader should not be out of pocket.

Ug Lee

dunkamania wrote: »

IMO, coaches and instructors have to make a living from what they teach. They have the right to charge what they like, and their students then have the choice on whether or not they choose to pay that amount.

I agree to a certain extent as long as the price is transparent and it is upfront. If not then it could be argued to be unethical. And while instructors have a right to charge what they want, students have a right to train where they want but when they exercise that right then they are accused of being disloyal.

joepenguin

Gradings: the examiner should get a few bob for sitting in. No probs there. The belt: a fiver, unless you want a more expensive one. 4-500euro is a joke. No way can you justify that.

I have no problem with instructors getting a few pound for their time especially if they are good at what they do, but the tuition should be excellent, the prices competitive etc etc.

I still think black belt gradings shouldnt have the massive price tag. Of course there are cost involved in admin for sending certs etc etc governing body and what have you but it should be minimum. You've earned it.

Ug Lee

I have no problem with someone earning a living out of Martial Arts and running it as a business. But there is good business practise and bad business practise. I don’t subscribe to the cliché of martial arts instructors as portrayed in cinema but I do think that those who represent martial arts should do so with a heightened sense of morals/ethics/fairness or even self-respect.

Niall Keane

Here's one.

About 7-8 years ago a female friend of mine came to me asking about the Tai Chi Chuan Classes I give. She wasn't seeking training for martial purposes, and I knew that she had learned a bit from someone else who will remain unnamed. So I told her that I thought he was up to the job of teaching a form, and she should rejoin his class (she had given up and wanted to get back doing tai chi),I told her that she shouldn't travel the extra 6 miles to my class as I train with an emphasis on sanshou, so it mightn't be what she was looking for. Never again will I recommend someone.
Then she practically broke down, seems asking about my class was a way of letting her story out.
She had ended a serious relationship badly 2.5 years earlier and had taken up Tai Chi to do something positive and regain some confidence.
Anyway this group she joined had a "master" who used to charge (remember this is 7-8 years ago) £3500 sterling for a 7 day retreat on an island in the medditerrian. No flights / accommodation included.
This guy really pisses me off anyway adding a lot of bull and magic to Tai Chi Chuan, but his Irish teacher could teach forms so I always bit my tongue around my friend. Didn't think there was any harm in it.
She goes on the trip, where one night this "Sifu" and his disciples explain that everyone is to strip down into their underwear to give each other a Tui Na massage; the purpose of stripping down - so as the "chi" wouldn't be interrupted.
Everyone complied, all the young women sitting in underwear on the Sifu massaging more than his ego, but nothing overtly illegal, you have to bear in mind that this girl was probably depressed at the time and seeking out affirmation from others. She never really questioned at the time what was going on, and if there were ulterior motives, probably psychologically she couldn't let herself see that this group she trusted in were manipulating her. Basically she had fallen into a cult situation. Now this girl is an intelligent professional, but due to a space in her life where she desperately needed validation, she found these tools who promised all the secrets of the orient, allowing her to be part of this "truth aware" group. For serious fees of course.
She now at last see's right through what was going on, and can't believe that she fell for it. Tells me there were times they "meditated" on the beach to hear the "master" snoring after a few minutes. How thousands of pounds crossed hands for "secret" breathing methods etc...
This is the most extreme case I ever encountered, but certainly much of so called "martial" arts are basically selling social inclusion and hierarchy to desperate and lonely people. Devoid of anything truly "martial" (then again those spending their money want to pay for the mask of "Bruce - I'm hard and carved out of stone - sure to have 'em all love or fear me- Lee " without putting in the actual effort required) so can we call such "clubs" and "societies" unethical, or are they providing a much sought after social service albeit though miss-trading?
Well I personally don't like it; one charlatan comfortably exploiting people puts us all into disrepute. Unfortunately it’s not just one charlatan, look at all the MMA clubs recently, where did they come from? In the 90’s it was Tai Chi, most of it absolute fantasy, before that Kung Fu and so on. Now I’m all for the punk rock DIY attitude, see a band, learn 3 chords and get up on stage, risk getting booed, bit different the consequence of being totally unprepared in the ring or in self defence! But hey, what do I know, I just about cover the rent!

cowzerp

Niall Keane wrote: »

it’s not just one charlatan, look at all the MMA clubs recently, where did they come from?

MMA was unknown in the 90,s here so how could anyone of taught it?

MMA clubs put there fighters into shows to compete so if there not real they will be found out, its a new sport/martial art to ireland and even the top clubs will get better, im not saying there are not some muppets out there setting up MMA clubs but the sport has to start somewhere and the standard of some clubs a few years old is quite high in my opinion and will get better and better with more experience and training.

and the sport would not be doing so well if there was no new clubs starting up, either way they will need to prove themselves in the ring or cage.

Your post was good but this part just means nothing without some sort of example..

Ug Lee

£3500 for 7 days? That is crazy never mind the other going ons. Was it a group called pathgate? I had a look at their retreat in Greece on youtube and it looks very doubtful and cultish. For anyone more technically minded than me they could put in a link.

Niall Keane

hard to give an example, without slander? But even on boards I recall a guy claiming to be the man in a sport dear to my heart, and now offering MMA 7 days a week, I know another genuine MMA competitor called him on this. I also know that he went to 1 that's right 1 class on groundfighting.
You say MMA clubs put their fighters into competition, for those that do all the best as far as I'm concerned, but it must annoy some of the genuine culbs out their to see more and more bullsiht clubs adopt the label offering an MMA night "for experienced members". All I'm saying is the guys who have done the Cage Rage, Ring of truths, and similar deserve to prosper for their hard work. The join the band wagon, no practical experience, put their students in danger, bullsihetrs need to be outed.
And I didn't confine this to MMA, I've seen what it did to Tai Chi Chuan my own core system.

cowzerp

I've been told lately of a 2 seperate TKD coaches who where planning on teaching MMA even though he never trained or competed in it and know another who told me he was thinking of it and i told him he'd want to learn it 1st, he then agreed as he knew i was on to him-this would be 1 of the cowboy types you refer too, It does tend to come from the money drivin martial arts who are only jumping on the buzz thing at the moment, same happens with boxing all the time, other arts claim to teach boxing when they simply dont.

Niall Keane

just to clarify, if 4-5 lads down in Mayo say were watching YouTube and sharing the cost of a gym to practice in , taking part in MMA comps to test out their skills, I have nothing but admiration.
But if "Master Dcikhed" 72nd level kung fu panda who couldn't kick snow off a rope finds business is slow and reinvents himself as Hulio Graceria BJJ /MMA expert and charges his students a fortune, then really I think the NCA and ultimately CAB should probably be involved. They won't be because there can be no regulation in an martial art, an art whose essence is in deception.

Baggio...

Some years ago my ex-Kenpo instructor wanted my to pay 600 hundred euro for my second degree B.B. (obviously this was was way before I was training with Lee Morrison). I basically told him to 'eff off, and never trained with him again.. A belt that you have to pay that much money for - is worth absolutely nothing....

But it's like any other industry... there's a lot of crooks about. You've got to make sure you don't get sucked in, and ripped off. And if people do, there's bugger all you can do about it.

Pity... but that's way things are.

One of my students told me about a weekend course he attended a while back (cost 200 euro as it was on "special"). He was fed lots of useless techniques (as you'd expect - the standard trope), and had his ego messaged plenty. The course was packed apparently - with no end of students lined up for a "guarantee" of personal safety. I mean, who wouldn't want a guarantee of your personal safety? Obviously it's B.S.... but those hyped up marketing gimmicks get bums on seats.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof..." Carl Sagan.

yomchi

I know of a Taekwon-Do association that charges it's clubs large amounts money every year for it's membership and offers nothing in return for it.

Not even a membership card! Infact you'd be lucky to get a receipt.

:rolleyes:

FruitLover

Lads, this is a bit of a pointless argument. You'll always have chancers looking to rip people off as long as you have idiots who'll fall for it. The only way to get rid of the chancers is for there to be no more idiots, and that's never going to happen.

This is Darwinism in action.

Ug Lee

Jon wrote: »

I know of a Taekwon-Do association that charges it's clubs large amounts money every year for it's membership and offers nothing in return for it.

Not even a membership card! Infact you'd be lucky to get a receipt.

:rolleyes:

Any idea of how much?

dunkamania

FruitLover wrote: »

Lads, this is a bit of a pointless argument. You'll always have chancers looking to rip people off as long as you have idiots who'll fall for it. The only way to get rid of the chancers is for there to be no more idiots, and that's never going to happen.

This is Darwinism in action.

+1

Roper

FruitLover wrote: »

Lads, this is a bit of a pointless argument. You'll always have chancers looking to rip people off as long as you have idiots who'll fall for it. The only way to get rid of the chancers is for there to be no more idiots, and that's never going to happen.

This is Darwinism in action.

It's not always that easy. Some people are quite cute about how they do it. They get people in and then there's pressure to buy up the extras like one day course and weekend courses, gradings etc. etc. "everyone else is going"

I would say that a lot of chancers are out there getting people into everything from mobile phone contracts to electric golf buggies, but the difference in martial arts is that people don't know what they're getting. If the buggy stops driving one day or the mobile phone coverage is crap they know that's a rip off, but usually there's a strong personality involved in what are basically cults that keeps them coming back.

OLDMAN1

cowzerp wrote: »

I've been told lately of a 2 seperate TKD coaches who where planning on teaching MMA even though he never trained or competed in it and know another who told me he was thinking of it and i told him he'd want to learn it 1st, he then agreed as he knew i was on to him-this would be 1 of the cowboy types you refer too, It does tend to come from the money drivin martial arts who are only jumping on the buzz thing at the moment, same happens with boxing all the time, other arts claim to teach boxing when they simply dont.

i also think that it is wrong for TKD BB or other BB that have no experience in ground work to start teaching MMA but i was wondering, how do You feel about BJJ brown or black belts or judo black belts teaching MMA if they have no experience in stand up and i dont mean a couple of months in a boxing or kickboxing club, i mean competition experience in stand up fighting.

NilByMouth

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

i also think that it is wrong for TKD BB or other BB that have no experience in ground work to start teaching MMA but i was wondering, how do You feel about BJJ brown or black belts or judo black belts teaching MMA if they have no experience in stand up and i dont mean a couple of months in a boxing or kickboxing club, i mean competition experience in stand up fighting.

You will find alot of MMA clubs where the main trainer has trained in say BJJ will get a seperate Muaythai trainer in for stand up classes or even share the gym with a thai club

Liam_B

There is a very interesting an entertaining Biblical post on EFN UK , BJJ Police regarding clubs that have brazilian Jiujitsu or MMA classes on offer, who turn out to be fraudulent and how the UK community deal with them.

Check out the BJJ Police on EFN .


http://www.efnsports.com/forum/index.php?board=50.0

Tim_Murphy

I know of a Taekwon-Do association that charges it's clubs large amounts money every year for it's membership and offers nothing in return for it.

Not even a membership card! Infact you'd be lucky to get a receipt.

Surely there is more than one of them that does this in fairness?!

arybvtcw0eolkf

Jon wrote: »

I know of a Taekwon-Do association that charges it's clubs large amounts money every year for it's membership and offers nothing in return for it.

Not even a membership card! Infact you'd be lucky to get a receipt.

:rolleyes:

Jon, did you know our mutual friend 'Frank' was charged 750 PUNTS :eek: to get tested for his 3rd dan!.

.

dlofnep

I'm of the opinion that a belt is earned, not bought. You should never have to pay for a belt, unless there is a formal grading process - where the instructor is thrown a few bob for taking a day out to go through a series of gradings. And even at that, the cost should be minimal.

As for costs for training - If the training is solid, and the instructor is knowledgeable and you get something out of your training - then IMO - it's usually worth the cost. I have no problem with an instructor making a living out of what he does, provided it's a quality service. What I would have an issue with however, is an instructor who isn't knowledgeable charging high prices for something that they are unfamiliar with themselves.

Take for example that one club in Dublin (and I won't mention a name) that was and still is teaching MMA, but yet the instructor had no experience himself. They put up sparring videos on their website which resembled someone who's had a few beers, watched UFC and went out to their Garden for a bit of the auld "Ultimate Fighting". This type of nonsense is what needs to stop.

People do have the choice to pay the fees of training, but if someone is a newcomer themselves - then sometimes they can't distinguish between good and bad trainers. It's certainly not a black and white issue.

silat liam

Is "Mixed Martial Arts" by its defination not a system of Combat which uses a mixture of Martial Arts? Or is it now set in stone what arts you have to do or who you have to train under ? How do you get qualified to teach MMA, is there a Governing body in Ireland?

dlofnep

silat liam wrote: »

Is "Mixed Martial Arts" by its defination not a system of Combat which uses a mixture of Martial Arts? Or is it now set in stone what arts you have to do or who you have to train under ? How do you get qualified to teach MMA, is their a Governing body in Ireland?

Anyone can use the term Mixed Martial Arts - but it's the ability to fight in striking, clinch and ground-fighting. What arts you choose to cover these areas is entirely up to you - there is obviously alot of choice.

Some people might prefer judo to wrestling for clinch/takedowns, or bjj to judo on the ground.. Some might prefer boxing to kickboxing, or muay thai to pure boxing for striking. Some like Machida use Karate for striking..

So long as you're competent in all areas - then you could consider yourself a mixed martial artist. No governing body that I'm aware of. But MMA is one of those things that is defined by results, and not by a sheet of paper.

cowzerp

silat liam wrote: »

Is "Mixed Martial Arts" by its defination not a system of Combat which uses a mixture of Martial Arts? Or is it now set in stone what arts you have to do or who you have to train under ? How do you get qualified to teach MMA, is their a Governing body in Ireland?

There is no qualification, but i believe you need to fight MMA at the least to be taken serious-not to prove how good you are but to show that you have experience of been in an MMA fight.

As dlofnep said, any mix of the arts are acceptable but just having knowledge of 1 area does not cut it and i'd even say knowledge of 2 is not enough..

Realistically you need some, Boxing, Thai boxing, Wrestling and Sub wrestling-BJJ, Judo for example. Different coaches will have different strenghts and weaknesses, this will change in the far off future when the coaches are pure MMA coaches who have been trained in all elements in 1 and not seperately..

BlackNinja

D'ya know the funny thing is that quite a majority of Martial arts instructors (know of Taekwondo from experience) do not pay tax or declare their income so it's going directly into their back pockets (minus a little for kick shields,insurance etc) and paying for lovely cars, holidays etc. Now granted it is not all instructors and i dont want to offend those who do it as they are a proper business, but its astonishing that with circa 40 students, a part-time parish hall job can earn c.€15,000 a year!!! I dont think its fair that some register and some dont. I really think that all should be made declare for tax and its a pity its not regulated more