Rugby's being ruined by protein and tanks

mother_rucker

I'm all for rugby players being fit and strong but the current trend toward bigger-is-better rugby players is killing the game.
Big players are necessary for the game but now it's just getting ridiculous. Protein and marathon gym sessions are stifling the beautiful game of rugby as brute force is being favoured over genuine skill and creativity.
I know there's nothing to be done about it but i just wanted to register my protest at this degradation of the greatest sport in the world.

anonymous_joe

Yeah, probably, but it's not going to change.

themont85

Protein? We get that in quite a lot of food.

Tanks? Haven't seen one yet on the pitch sorry.

mother_rucker

themont85 wrote: »

Protein? We get that in quite a lot of food.

Tanks? Haven't seen one yet on the pitch sorry.

Christ but you're quick
Let me guess, you're a forward?

itsallaboutheL

troll

themont85

mother_rucker wrote: »

Christ but you're quick
Let me guess, you're a forward?

Well the way i see things is size has always been a massive part of the game. First instance a lot of school boys at Junior Cup level are picked because they are a little more down the line in growth than their classmates.

I do get in a sense your beef(no pun intended) with the way it is going. In England especially power is one of the most coveted aspects, great skills are sidelined at times for it. However, i think it has a lot to do with NH mindset of rugby currently. A guy i think most people love, Spies, combines pace power skill ect all into a no 8.

I'll never get tired of seeing that bloke, even if he is a ''tank'' and probably on extra ''protein''!

anonymous_joe

themont85 wrote: »

Well the way i see things is size has always been a massive part of the game. First instance a lot of school boys at Junior Cup level are picked because they are a little more down the line in growth than their classmates.

I do get in a sense your beef(no pun intended) with the way it is going. In England especially power is one of the most coveted aspects, great skills are sidelined at times for it. However, i think it has a lot to do with NH mindset of rugby currently. A guy i think most people love, Spies, combines pace power skill ect all into a no 8.

I'll never get tired of seeing that bloke, even if he is a ''tank'' and probably on extra ''protein''!

Spies is inhuman.

In fairness the real problem is that yeah, guys are massive and it makes the game very unattractive to play.

I met a lad whose playing AIL rugby who I went to school with recently and teh size of him was unreal. Built like a brick shíthouse. I remember a skinny back in school, not the monster he is now.

It's how the game's gone though, so evolve or die. ^^

justsomebloke

mother_rucker wrote: »

I'm all for rugby players being fit and strong but the current trend toward bigger-is-better rugby players is killing the game.
Big players are necessary for the game but now it's just getting ridiculous. Protein and marathon gym sessions are stifling the beautiful game of rugby as brute force is being favoured over genuine skill and creativity.
I know there's nothing to be done about it but i just wanted to register my protest at this degradation of the greatest sport in the world.

Seriously?

Rugby is a professional sport, so players have to make them selves as physically suited to the position they play as possible as that is what they are paid to do.

As far for marathon sessions and "protein" seriously do you have any idea what you are even talking about. The change in shape has come about by proper training regimes being brought and then to back this up players will also have proper diets to help them build and maintain their bodies.

To build up muscle players could be doing as little as 3-4 40 minute sessions in a gym and then be getting all their protein from eggs, lean meat, dairy and veg.

To be truthful most ordinary people's diet suck and they don't have any idea of how the food they eat actually fuels their bodies needs and this would would of been the case in players of old, however now players are being thought properly what to eat and they are reaping the benefits of it

mink_man

they were sayinn before that maybe players are too big, and their body cant support the size they are! like gavin henson, who maybe goes over on his ankle and is injured for ages! it was on bbc! lololololol

stephen_n

Rugby has always been a full on contact sport and as such bigger has and always will be better. The speed and the ferocity of the game has increased in the pro era and therefore the players have needed to adapt to that physically, especially the backs but I really don't think that has affected the skill levels very much. Defensive patterns have far more affect on nullifying the skill levels of players than their build does IMO

molloyjh

themont85 wrote: »

Well the way i see things is size has always been a massive part of the game. First instance a lot of school boys at Junior Cup level are picked because they are a little more down the line in growth than their classmates.

I do get in a sense your beef(no pun intended) with the way it is going. In England especially power is one of the most coveted aspects, great skills are sidelined at times for it. However, i think it has a lot to do with NH mindset of rugby currently.

I dunno, power is a big thing in England alright, but look where that has gotten them. The English game is a shambles all things considered. The top 6 Nations sides over the last few years have been teams where great skill is a foundation to the side, i.e. the French, Welsh and ourselves.

All this over-attention to brawn has worked against the English, and while the players themselves have all bulked up a good deal I don't think it's affected the rest of us as much. Just look at the France game in Croker this year, Munster in the QF of the HC (immense game that frightened the bejaysus out of me as a Leinster supporter!) and the Leinster-Munster game in Croker too.

NickNolte

mother_rucker wrote: »

the current trend toward bigger-is-better rugby players is killing the game.

How exactly? If anything is killing rugby it's the constant screwing about with the rules and poor officiating. Making the athletes that play rugby more finely honed to their sport through a strict diet and intenstive exercise is hardly going to 'kill' any sport. It'll inevitably make it better and more competitive.

This sounds more like one of those "I have a big problem with muscle/bodybuilding" arguments thinly veiled as something else. You know... retarded myths like "Muscles slow you down" or "When you stop lifting weights, all your muscle turns to fat". Down with this sort of thing. Educate yourself.

NickNolte

molloyjh wrote: »

All this over-attention to brawn has worked against the English

Over-emphasis on anything is going to work against you. It's a matter of getting the balance right. Look at South Africa in the last world cup (or even now). Massive, massive men as well as incredible pace and skill.

Depp

themont85 wrote: »

Well the way i see things is size has always been a massive part of the game. First instance a lot of school boys at Junior Cup level are picked because they are a little more down the line in growth than their classmates.

I do get in a sense your beef(no pun intended) with the way it is going. In England especially power is one of the most coveted aspects, great skills are sidelined at times for it. However, i think it has a lot to do with NH mindset of rugby currently. A guy i think most people love, Spies, combines pace power skill ect all into a no 8.

I'll never get tired of seeing that bloke, even if he is a ''tank'' and probably on extra ''protein''!

Some man

anonymous_joe

NickNolte wrote: »

How exactly? If anything is killing rugby it's the constant screwing about with the rules and poor officiating. Making the athletes that play rugby more finely honed to their sport through a strict diet and intenstive exercise is hardly going to 'kill' any sport. It'll inevitably make it better and more competitive.

This sounds more like one of those "I have a big problem with muscle/bodybuilding" arguments thinly veiled as something else. You know... retarded myths like "Muscles slow you down" or "When you stop lifting weights, all your muscle turns to fat". Down with this sort of thing. Educate yourself.

I think the only place where the OP's argument is applicable is club and underage rugby.

In those two fields I'd definitely agree with him.

I went to school with a guy who plays as a prop in the AIL. From primary school up to secondary school he was always a big lad, one of the tallest and strongest.

Some of the other lads however, grew at different paces and so on. Now when you've a guy, who at 16 is already the size of a small elephant, spends time in the gym, etc, the difference between him and a normal person of his own age is staggering. When you've got some talented kids who happen to be a bit shorter or whatever, or grow slower, the size difference becomes prohibitive.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing that players are big and powerful at a young age, nor am I saying it's a good thing, but it's a factor, and it's something that the IRFU et al will have to deal with. A couple of years ago, I remember reading an article in a New Zealand paper (online) saying that large numbers of white kids weren't playing rugby anymore, where there dads, uncles, older brothers, etc had, simply because the polynesians tend to grow faster and bigger. As such parents were averse to their kids playing rugby. Ireland's not like that, but it's an issue at some levels of the game.

NickNolte

It's always been that way. But just because teens grow at a different rate, there's nothing to stop the smaller lads, provided they're old enough, to take up weights. You can vastly improve your strength and performance that way. I can see the issue in New Zealand but that's their indigenous problem really and they'll have to address that themselves.

Sangre

Size and power can greatly aid a player's speed and ability to avoid injury. Surely good things in any game.

anonymous_joe

Sangre wrote: »

Size and power can greatly aid a player's speed and ability to avoid injury. Surely good things in any game.

Yeah, but the downside is that one person with exaggerated size and power requires all others to be at the same level.

The demands aren't reachable for everyone. Whether through time, lifestyle, whatever.

Look at it this way, was watching an interview with Pierre Spies earlier, now we'd all have a physique like that if it didn't take effort, but obviously it requires an enormous committment of time.

And not all schools have gyms and physios.

itsallaboutheL

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Yeah, but the downside is that one person with exaggerated size and power requires all others to be at the same level.

The demands aren't reachable for everyone. Whether through time, lifestyle, whatever.

Look at it this way, was watching an interview with Pierre Spies earlier, now we'd all have a physique like that if it didn't take effort, but obviously it requires an enormous committment of time.
we are lazy bastards
And not all schools have gyms and physios.

fixed that

NickNolte

anonymous_joe wrote: »

now we'd all have a physique like that if it didn't take effort, but obviously it requires an enormous committment of time.

So does mastering most professions. Name me one professional sportsperson that didn't get to where they were without an enormous committment of time and a massive amount of effort. Well... apart from Dr. Socrates maybe.

anonymous_joe

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

fixed that

Call it what you will. Who cares?

NickNolte wrote: »

So does mastering most professions. Name me one professional sportsperson that didn't get to where they were without an enormous committment of time and a massive amount of effort. Well... apart from Dr. Socrates maybe.

Absolutely, but as a comparison - fitness is crucial to football as an example, but a skillful player whose unfit can still perform, whereas in rugby, a skillful player who was unfit would just get hurt. Badly.

This isn't an issue that will ever have an effect at the professional level, but it will outside of it.

NickNolte

anonymous_joe wrote: »

a skillful player whose unfit can still perform, whereas in rugby, a skillful player who was unfit would just get hurt. Badly.

Sorry, are we talking about fitness or size/strength here? I'm getting confused.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

This isn't an issue that will ever have an effect at the professional level, but it will outside of it.

Rugby is a physical game. Whaddya want from me?

anonymous_joe

NickNolte wrote: »

Sorry, are we talking about fitness or size/strength here? I'm getting confused.

I'm equating the two to a degree.

In rugby size has become more and more of a factor.

Rugby is a physical game. Whaddya want from me?

Well yeah. I'm not unaware of that.

Merely pointing out that at certain levels of the game the size differentials are hugely unattractive. LEading to less people playing.

anonymous_joe

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Absolutely, but as a comparison - fitness is crucial to football as an example, but a skillful player whose unfit can still perform, whereas in rugby, a skillful player who was unfit would just get hurt. Badly.

Caucaunibuca being the exception to the rule

Serenity Now!

mother_rucker wrote: »

I'm all for rugby players being fit and strong but the current trend toward bigger-is-better rugby players is killing the game.
Big players are necessary for the game but now it's just getting ridiculous. Protein and marathon gym sessions are stifling the beautiful game of rugby as brute force is being favoured over genuine skill and creativity.
I know there's nothing to be done about it but i just wanted to register my protest at this degradation of the greatest sport in the world.

A sport "ruined" by fitness...lol :rolleyes:

NickNolte

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I'm equating the two to a degree.

In rugby size has become more and more of a factor.


Well yeah. I'm not unaware of that.

Merely pointing out that at certain levels of the game the size differentials are hugely unattractive. LEading to less people playing.

With all due respect, I think you're starting to waffle a bit.

CatFromHue

whats the old saying again

a good small one can beat a bad big one but a good big one will beat a good small one.

What im thinking about here is doesnt shane horgan have a pretty good try record for when he is playing against shane willaims

subfreq

Telling fact in the Spies clip. He runs the 100m in 10.7sec.

Size is meaningless unless you have breaking power over the first 5 metres, it's then an ultimate bonus if you can sustain it. That is of course before you take into account the minutia if the skill level needed for the top level.

Buckley is a great example how size isn't the answer otherwise he would be world class by proxy.

I think there are two levels to this argument though. At club and school level I can see this would be an issue as players are compensating for lack of skills by simply bulking.

At international and provincial level i think it is less of an issue to be honest. Skill is always the greatest quality. The All Blacks, Aussies and SA are littered with skillful players who aren't massive.

anonymous_joe

Deleted User wrote: »

Caucaunibuca being the exception to the rule

Every rule has an exception. And what an exception! :pac:

NickNolte wrote: »

With all due respect, I think you're starting to waffle a bit.

Bit harsh.

What I'd say is this - at schools levels, and lower reaches of the club game, people are using size as a compensation for no skill. Thus driving skillful players out of the game.

Eoin

Does anyone watch Rugbaí Gold on TG4? You'd wonder what chance the likes of Ollie Campbell would have in today's game. I seem to remember them talking about one of the Irish wingers who was a "massive" 13.5 stone or so.

subfreq wrote:

Buckley is a great example how size isn't the answer otherwise he would be world class by proxy.

The problem with that example is that he is still probably quite overweight, rather than being a solid lump of muscle. Andrew Sheridan is a better example, and even then you're talking about a position where height can be a disadvantage.

gcgirl

Rugby's being ruined by protein and tanks

And thats just the womens game!!

mother_rucker

The problem is mainly professionalism and its impact on the game, but then again the same is happening in GAA to a certain extent. Just look at how dominant Kilkenny are because of their superior fitness, though their skill doesn't hurt either. The same is happening in rugby.
This ridiculous over-competitiveness is going to drive many people away from the sport as we can't all be the size of pierres spies, more's the pity.
The game of rugby was far more attractive back in the day, now it's getting more similar to American Football every time i watch it.
Everybody needs to take it easy and just play the game

mother_rucker

mother_rucker wrote: »

The problem is mainly professionalism and its impact on the game, but then again the same is happening in GAA to a certain extent. Just look at how dominant Kilkenny are because of their superior fitness, though their skill doesn't hurt either. The same is happening in rugby.
This ridiculous over-competitiveness is going to drive many people away from the sport as we can't all be the size of pierres spies, more's the pity.
The game of rugby was far more attractive back in the day, now it's getting more similar to American Football every time i watch it.
Everybody needs to take it easy and just play the game

If its any consolation I can see it leveling off.

Eoin

mother_rucker wrote: »

The game of rugby was far more attractive back in the day

Back in what day / era exactly? The highlights of great tries from days gone by look great, but the rest of the game could be appalling stuff.

NickNolte

anonymous_joe wrote: »

What I'd say is this - at schools levels, and lower reaches of the club game, people are using size as a compensation for no skill. Thus driving skillful players out of the game.

Good. Eventually the unskilled meatheads will be found out and the 'skillful' pansies who aren't tough enough to play the game and won't dedicate time to their physiques will be off playing football.

This is probably the most ridiculous thread I've ever read on this forum. Rugby is a tough contact sport and has been professional since 1995. If you want to play, you need to train hard. That includes weights.

You think rugby was 'more attractive' back in the olden days? That's really sweet. Welcome to 2009.

anonymous_joe

NickNolte wrote: »

Good. Eventually the unskilled meatheads will be found out and the 'skillful' pansies who aren't tough enough to play the game and won't dedicate time to their physiques will be off playing football.

This is probably the most ridiculous thread I've ever read on this forum. Rugby is a tough contact sport and has been professional since 1995. If you want to play, you need to train hard. That includes weights.

You think rugby was 'more attractive' back in the olden days? That's really sweet. Welcome to 2009.

I didn't say that.

Sangre

100m sprint is ruined by protein and tanks. Sure all those sprinters are massive.

mother_rucker

NickNolte wrote: »

Good. Eventually the unskilled meatheads will be found out and the 'skillful' pansies who aren't tough enough to play the game and won't dedicate time to their physiques will be off playing football.

are you one of those fat props?

mother_rucker

Sangre wrote: »

100m sprint is ruined by protein and tanks. Sure all those sprinters are massive.

yeah but they're all *whisper* black too so it's probably natural. And besides, the olympics are pretty much a who-can-swallow-the-most-drugs-and-still-pee-stragiht affair nowadays.
The only sport uncorrupted is golf, and i have my doubts over whether golf constitutes a sport anyway. And Tiger Woods does serious work outs too... So I guess nowhere is safe