If you don't vote do you have a right to complain?

darkman2

I know alot of people who I know have never voted claiming the "politicians are all corrupt" or they are "in it for themselves", "they have never done anything for me" etc - yet these seem to be the people that complain most about the government.

Do they have a right to complain? Should they be interned and beaten with pitch forks for not voting? I think in Austrailia you do get punished if you don't vote. Not sure how but I remember hearing something about it.

IMO they have no right to complain because they did not effect the election in any way, no matter how small their votes may have been, they intentionally made themselves absent from the system.

Local-womanizer

I wouldent vote if all who are running are useless.

Anyway we all have the right to complain,its up to you if you want to listen or not.

nesf

Thread opened after move from AH.

nesf

I'll repeat what I've said before on this issue. Politics a lot of the time unfortunately comes down to choosing the least worst option, think of only having enough money to help cystic fibrosis sufferers or autistic kids but not both and having to make a call for a classic example.

When you vote you are voting as much to keep certain people out as to vote certain people in.

Overheal

If you don't vote do you have a right to complain?

Constitutionally, yes, and under the Geneva Convention. Not everyone is eligible to vote. Everyone has the right to Free Speech.

28064212

darkman2 wrote: »

Do they have a right to complain?

They have a right to complain, just means that you have the right to tell them to **** off and stop bitching when they didn't get off their lazy ****ing asses to go and have their say. If they don't believe anyone is worth voting for, then go and register a protest vote, otherwise **** off

InFront

I can't understand this position of. non voting Even if one is of the opinion that no candidate is much good, they will be sure to find something that makes one of them at least marginally better than the rest. It's not like abstention is going to really change anything, so you might as well change something by voting, no mater how small the issue that helps you decide.

To answer the question, yes they have the right to complain, but they should try to make sure they actually vote next time.

FTA69

Still, is voting the only valid method by which to participate in the political process? Surely politics should be more than ticking a piece of paper every 5 years and leaving the higher-ups to decide our fate?

I'm not voting for anyone, I think they're all as bad as each other. I would vote if there was someone I felt worth voting for. However, I have also participated in party politics in the past, I've been to protests, strikes, public meetings, I've been involved in solidarity groups, dropped leaflets, sold papers, helped other like-minded individuals etc. I've participated a lot in the past, and at a young age I've done more politically in my past than most average citizens will do in their lifetime.

In other words, I wouldn't call myself a lazy, disinterested individual just because I won't vote for tweedledum or tweedledee.

InFront

FTA69 wrote: »

have also participated in party politics in the past, I've been to protests, strikes, public meetings, I've been involved in solidarity groups, dropped leaflets, sold papers, helped other like-minded individuals etc. I've participated a lot

Yet all of the people who made your protests public meetings and objections necessary, now get returned. At the very least you could vote for a fresher face in politics, vote to give a former policymaker the sack? Are there no new candidates in your area, even?
If they're all the same on form, then what harm will it be to give a new guy a chance?
Are there really zero differentiating factors, absolutely? Even at party level?

Joey the lips

Agree, you dont vote. you should not have a voice! In fact if you dont vote you should loose it and have to go to an extrame effort to regain it,

28064212

FTA69 wrote: »

Still, is voting the only valid method by which to participate in the political process? Surely politics should be more than ticking a piece of paper every 5 years and leaving the higher-ups to decide our fate?

So make a protest vote. Protest votes are an important part of a healthy democracy. Personally, I feel Ireland should have a "None of the above" option on the ballots, but in the absence of them, a protest vote is a valid option. And there are plenty of methods to participate in the political process, some of which you mentioned, others like actually running for something, but a vote is one of the most important things you can do

FTA69

At the very least you could vote for a fresher face in politics, vote to give a former policymaker the sack? Are there no new candidates in your area, even?

Not really, there is a couple of first-timers alright but they're running for Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael.

vote to give a former policymaker the sack?

There is zero ideological difference between Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil.

If they're all the same on form, then what harm will it be to give a new guy a chance?

So voting for someone who is a member of a party you abhor is better than not expressing support for parties you abhor? That doesn't make a blind bit of sense to me.

Are there really zero differentiating factors, absolutely? Even at party level?

There isn't many to be honest. There isn't any major political tenets of any of the parties that I would convince me to weigh in behind their platform. I'd vote in a referendum alright, but I certainly won't be voting for a candidate. Not that I'm opposed to the idea or anything, I just don't think the current shower are offering anything radical or drastic.

Liam Byrne

I often wonder if the political process had an option on the ballot paper "none of the above" would people turn up to tick it, showing their opinion, and if "none of the above" reached a quota, could then we save ourselves from having to pay another party-whip-following brain-dead idiot ?

The FIRST thing that needs to be changed in this country is that stupid party whip; of course, it doesn't say much for the current crowd if they follow this stupid rule instead of voting with their conscience and/or representing the views of the constituents that trusted them with the job, instead of pandering to lobby groups and Galway tent buddies and bankers.

nesf

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The FIRST thing that needs to be changed in this country is that stupid party whip; of course, it doesn't say much for the current crowd if they follow this stupid rule instead of voting with their conscience and/or representing the views of the constituents that trusted them with the job, instead of pandering to lobby groups and Galway tent buddies and bankers.

In a bizarre twist we can thank Charles Stuart Parnell and his Irish Parliamentary Party for introducing the Whip system into Westminister which we later copied when forming the Dáil. Though removing the Whip might bring in an even stronger influence of regional politics (i.e. TDs refusing to show up for crucial votes unless some parish pump issue is sorted for them), so it's not all rosy with the alternatives either.

Liam Byrne

nesf wrote: »

In a bizarre twist we can thank Charles Stuart Parnell and his Irish Parliamentary Party for introducing the Whip system into Westminister which we later copied when forming the Dáil. Though removing the Whip might bring in an even stronger influence of regional politics (i.e. TDs refusing to show up for crucial votes unless some parish pump issue is sorted for them), so it's not all rosy with the alternatives either.

Therein lies the SECOND reform required. We're paying them to do a job, so they should turn up for work (and not paying them extra to turn up!).

Anyone who doesn't should be docked pay - and fired if it occurs often.....

nesf

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Therein lies the SECOND reform required. We're paying them to do a job, so they should turn up for work (and not paying them extra to turn up!).

Anyone who doesn't should be docked pay - and fired if it occurs often.....

Abstaining from voting is valid for TDs no? Plus it's the problem of them needing to be available in their constituency clinics that's a lot of the problem.

Overheal

nesf wrote: »

Abstaining from voting is valid for TDs no? Plus it's the problem of them needing to be available in their constituency clinics that's a lot of the problem.

At least being present to convey their abstinence would be a boon. Many can't be arsed to make it into work.

lostexpectation

not voting is just another option like any other.

not voting and doing other things to improve society is even better

Ah Well

darkman2 wrote: »

I know alot of people who I know have never voted claiming the "politicians are all corrupt" or they are "in it for themselves", "they have never done anything for me" etc - yet these seem to be the people that complain most about the government.

Do they have a right to complain? Should they be interned and beaten with pitch forks for not voting? I think in Austrailia you do get punished if you don't vote. Not sure how but I remember hearing something about it.

IMO they have no right to complain because they did not effect the election in any way, no matter how small their votes may have been, they intentionally made themselves absent from the system.

Personally I think those who take the time to exercise their vote are the first to be entitled to complain and others come a distant second. But there should be no compulsory voting system put in place, because you'll only large numbers of spoiled votes from those destined to remain always apathetic and who will draw pics of Mickey Mouse and Dustin the Turkey on Ballot Papers. As it people who do vote do so for many reasons: blind loyalty, just to be seem to turn up and spoil their vote and those who make an effort to make a choice between the Candidates on offer. As it stands I do think the majority who vote (in the sense that the majority of voters are still not members of a political party) make some sort of reasoned conclusion before exercising their vote.

But to those presently complaining about the Gov and the country is overflowing with people like that for many reasons - the only way you can actually do something about it realistically is to go vote next Friday for the Locals and the Euros and obviously for other Candidates who are not of the Gov Parties. If one is not too enamored of the other parties' Candidates then there is always the option of voting for an Indepedent Candidate if there are Indos in your Electoral area. But I would personally exercise caution re Indos in the sense of there are "true" Indos and those recently becoming so by jumping of the party ship (there have been a number of Indos coming out of FF recently).

Rather than moan and do nothing, I'd suggest ppl do something and that is by voting next Friday

bookerboy

Hate to say it but next time i will be voting to vote people out not in.

Ah Well

bookerboy wrote: »

Hate to say it but next time i will be voting to vote people out not in.

Nothing wrong with that either - legit use of one's entitlement to vote too

JonathanAnon

Overheal wrote: »

At least being present to convey their abstinence would be a boon. Many can't be arsed to make it into work.

Welcome to boards, Frasier.

I'm not gonna vote. Dont know anything about any of the local candidates. In the country that voted Dustin The Turkey to Eurovision I'm not sure that democracy is a good idea anyway.

Count Dooku

FTA69 wrote: »

So voting for someone who is a member of a party you abhor is better than not expressing support for parties you abhor? That doesn't make a blind bit of sense to me.

Best way for “protest vote” is to give it to any new independent in you area. Success of those guys is serious treat for current politicians

Dave!

You don't vote, democracy carries on without you

thebman

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Welcome to boards, Frasier.

I'm not gonna vote. Dont know anything about any of the local candidates. In the country that voted Dustin The Turkey to Eurovision I'm not sure that democracy is a good idea anyway.

lol I think if anything that proves we have a sense of humor about joke competitions.

Anyway, I don't think any vote that you do with a mobile phone and get charged for should be seen as indicative of anything since most people are smart enough not to text in and waste their money.

Akrasia

28064212 wrote: »

So make a protest vote. Protest votes are an important part of a healthy democracy. Personally, I feel Ireland should have a "None of the above" option on the ballots, but in the absence of them, a protest vote is a valid option. And there are plenty of methods to participate in the political process, some of which you mentioned, others like actually running for something, but a vote is one of the most important things you can do

whats the point? Protest votes don't get counted, they just go into the 'spoiled votes' category along side the ballot cards that were incorrectly filled in by mistake.

A protest vote in Ireland is pointless, it only gives you a false sense of personal satisfaction. You would be much better off holding an actual protest outside the polling centres against the political system as at least then you will at least be visible.


I don't vote for any candidates because I oppose the entire system of democracy that we have here (voting for 'representatives' to go out and represent their own interests)

I believe the political system in ireland is corrupt to the core and incapable of reforming itself from within, and therefore participating in their elections is a waste of time at best, and at worse, actually serves to validate their corrupt processes.

Akrasia

Count Dooku wrote: »

Best way for “protest vote” is to give it to any new independent in you area. Success of those guys is serious treat for current politicians

isn't that how the ultra right wing loonie Le Pen almost got elected as the french president?

sceptre

Dave! wrote: »

You don't vote, democracy carries on without you

Rarely was a truer word said. Things are run by those who turn up.

On the substantive issue though: do you have a right to complain if you don't vote? Of course you do. Those who choose not to vote aren't making the effort that results in their most definable opinion on who represents them being counted but democracy is far more than merely voting. Making your opinion explicitly known in public is one of the better things that democracy gives us. Yes, I'm aware that this doesn't just apply to democracies but it's far easier to do in a democratic system. One may place less emphasis on the opinion of another if they didn't take the time to cast their vote and of course that's one's right as a citizen or an inhabitant because having an opinion on someone else's vote (or lack of one) is part of democracy too.

It's worth remembering that some people can't vote. If you're an EU citizen and you're living here less than six months you can't even vote in the Eu elections. Again, perhaps their opinion isn't worth as much as they don't have the experience of the country but their opinions are worth more than nothing. Perhaps someone is away on holidays and doesn't vote. It's a perfect excuse but again, someone who does that didn't vote. People under 18 can't vote (and whether they should be allowed to or not isn't relevant to the core issue here) but they have as much a right to complain as anyone else.

You can place greater or lesser emphasis on the opinion or complaint of someone who does or doesn't vote, who is or isn't within the tax net, is permanently or temporarily resident here, who takes part in their community or chooses not to. But does every inhabitant have an inherent right to complain merely by reason of their inhabitance or existence? Of course they do.

ClubOrangeKid

In some cases it is right not to vote. If no politian can prove to you that there the best for the job you cant really vote as you may be sending an absolute f**k up to run the country!

jmayo

Akrasia wrote: »

whats the point? Protest votes don't get counted, they just go into the 'spoiled votes' category along side the ballot cards that were incorrectly filled in by mistake.

I don't vote for any candidates because I oppose the entire system of democracy that we have here (voting for 'representatives' to go out and represent their own interests)

I believe the political system in ireland is corrupt to the core and incapable of reforming itself from within, and therefore participating in their elections is a waste of time at best, and at worse, actually serves to validate their corrupt processes.

So instead of voting you complain on the interweb and wait for a revolution or something to come along to change the system ?
Meanwhile you get ridden sideways by a bunch of chancers becuase you and others refuse to vote them out of office :rolleyes:

I am sure Clowen et al are upset that you choose not to vote, after all it is one vote lost to the opposition and affectively a vote for them.
Nice.

Akrasia wrote: »

isn't that how the ultra right wing loonie Le Pen almost got elected as the french president?

Le Pen ended up in round two of the presidential election, becuase people got complacent.
They didn't go out to vote since they felt it wasn't necessary, but his nutjob supporters did go and vote and voila he ended up in round two.

ClubOrangeKid wrote: »

In some cases it is right not to vote. If no politian can prove to you that there the best for the job you cant really vote as you may be sending an absolute f**k up to run the country!

So we end up with possibly the worse candidate getting thorugh, becuase he has enough loyal supporters who bother to go and vote.

I believe anyone who can't be bothered to go down to their local school/polling station and vote has fu** all right complaining about how the government are useless, they are screwing us and how they don't represent the people.

If you don't like the government go down and vote for anyone bar a member of the government parties.
That way you are sending a signal that you disapprove of these parties.

If you don't vote you are in fact approving them.

O'Coonassa

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104400



Vote for Turd Sandwich! You know it makes sense :pac:

mufc4lfe

vote no1 terry o brien

Akrasia

jmayo wrote: »

So instead of voting you complain on the interweb and wait for a revolution or something to come along to change the system ?
Meanwhile you get ridden sideways by a bunch of chancers becuase you and others refuse to vote them out of office :rolleyes:

Vote them out of office to be ridden sideways by a different bunch of chancers?
If I had any confidence that any of the candidates running for election would implement the kinds of policies that I am in favour of, them I would vote for them in a heartbeat.

ave you read any of the election literature that has come through your letterbox in the last month? Every single candidate is in favour of exactly the same policies. "jobs, public order, the health service"
Why should I vote 'for change' when they don't even have the imagination to be different in their own election literature.

I am sure Clowen et al are upset that you choose not to vote, after all it is one vote lost to the opposition and affectively a vote for them.
Nice.

And a vote for the 'opposition' is a vote giving them a 'mandate' to follow their own failed policies if they get elected.

Lets say I vote FG and then enda gets elected with a big majority. For the next 5 years I have to grit my teeth and listen to him going on about his mandate from 'the people' (including me as I would ahve voted for him) every time he does something that I strongly disagree with.

I believe anyone who can't be bothered to go down to their local school/polling station and vote has fu** all right complaining about how the government are useless, they are screwing us and how they don't represent the people.

If you don't like the government go down and vote for anyone bar a member of the government parties.
That way you are sending a signal that you disapprove of these parties.

If you don't vote you are in fact approving them.

No you're not, if you vote for someone, you approve them. How often do you hear people saying "you voted for FF at the last election so you are responsible for the corruption and incompetence of this government"

If I vote for FG and they get into power and are just as incompetent and corrupt as FF, then people will be saying the exact same thing to me. What happens if there is a coalition of FG and Labour which collapses after 2 years due to incompetence and scandal and bickering? Do we go back and vote for FF as a protest against FG/labour?
Do we vote for a new unproven (potential dangerous) party like Libertas 'for change' or do we go for Sinn Fein or the trotskyists or a coalition of 166 single issue independent candidates?

Akrasia

O'Coonassa wrote: »

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104400



Vote for Turd Sandwich! You know it makes sense :pac:

You're a turd sandwich

thebman

Honestly if you care that much and party represents your policies, just put yourself forward or start your own party.

djpbarry

Akrasia wrote: »

Lets say I vote FG and then enda gets elected with a big majority. For the next 5 years I have to grit my teeth and listen to him going on about his mandate from 'the people' (including me as I would ahve voted for him) every time he does something that I strongly disagree with.

Or you could, ye know, let the government know when they do something you disagree with? Or, better still, you could register your protest against a particular TD's/Minster's proposals, before they are implemented. Democracy does not end at the ballot box.

lostexpectation

Democracy does not end at the ballot box.

yous lot have changed your tune since the thread title

jmayo

Akrasia wrote: »

Vote them out of office to be ridden sideways by a different bunch of chancers?

How do you know, are you physic ?

So your solution is do fu** all :rolleyes:
Clowen must love people like you becuase no matter how much he f**ks up, you will not vote against him and his party :mad:

Akrasia wrote: »

If I had any confidence that any of the candidates running for election would implement the kinds of policies that I am in favour of, them I would vote for them in a heartbeat.

So you will sit on your hands and wait until a candiate comes along that is either green enough, republican enough, economically liberal enough, fascist enough, communist enough, etc or whatever is your preference ?
Then you vote ?
Meanwhile you will be on here and probably other forums bitching about the government and political parties :rolleyes:

Akrasia wrote: »

ave you read any of the election literature that has come through your letterbox in the last month? Every single candidate is in favour of exactly the same policies. "jobs, public order, the health service"
Why should I vote 'for change' when they don't even have the imagination to be different in their own election literature.

You hardly expect them to say they are in favour of anarchy or no jobs ?
What do you want in their literature, muscial jingles or something

BTW FF literature is different in bad way in that they are hiding their logos.
Maybe they should have a competition, where you have to spot the logo and name hidden in there somewhere

Akrasia wrote: »

And a vote for the 'opposition' is a vote giving them a 'mandate' to follow their own failed policies if they get elected.

And not voting is a vote for the government and their PROVEN failed policies :rolleyes:

Akrasia wrote: »

Lets say I vote FG and then enda gets elected with a big majority. For the next 5 years I have to grit my teeth and listen to him going on about his mandate from 'the people' (including me as I would ahve voted for him) every time he does something that I strongly disagree with.

And then in 5 years, or whatever is the next election, you vote agianst his party.

Akrasia wrote: »

No you're not, if you vote for someone, you approve them. How often do you hear people saying "you voted for FF at the last election so you are responsible for the corruption and incompetence of this government"

And if you don't votre against the government you are approving them because you are affectively saying that I won't vote against you.
Remember Dubba's little "you are either with us or against us" mentality.

Akrasia wrote: »

If I vote for FG and they get into power and are just as incompetent and corrupt as FF, then people will be saying the exact same thing to me. What happens if there is a coalition of FG and Labour which collapses after 2 years due to incompetence and scandal and bickering? Do we go back and vote for FF as a protest against FG/labour?
Do we vote for a new unproven (potential dangerous) party like Libertas 'for change' or do we go for Sinn Fein or the trotskyists or a coalition of 166 single issue independent candidates?

Oh dear God, take a fu**ing chance :mad::mad:
What have you to lose ?
And if you don't vote against FF you are stuck with a proven incompetent regime.
Have you ever thought about that.

You appear to have listened to the good old soldiers of dysentry and their mantra that the others are just as corrupt, unethical and inept as us.

Why not take a chance and give the incumbents a bloody nose and see if they get their act together.
Otherwise you are just condoning their performance.

One question, do you keep going back to shops, etc that give you bad service ?
You must be a bad mechanics dream customer

nesf

jmayo wrote: »

And not voting is a vote for the government and their PROVEN failed policies :rolleyes:

Not really no, it's a vote for whoever the rest of society votes in and from the looks of it the current Government definitely isn't going to be returned unless there is a major turnaround in their polling.

jmayo

nesf wrote: »

Not really no, it's a vote for whoever the rest of society votes in and from the looks of it the current Government definitely isn't going to be returned unless there is a major turnaround in their polling.

That is just passing the buck.
It is the mentality of why bother doing anything because someone else will.
It is the cop out that my vote doesn't matter so why bother.
If every voter who was anti government and possibly anti polticis thought that and didn't bother voting then would the government actually be in trouble since it's ardent supoorters would probably vote ?

It appears that is a typical Irish phenomenon as can be judged from the recent Ryan Report into wholesale institutionalised child abuse that lasted in this state for nigh on 60 years.
Nobody ever bothered doing anything, maybe they were waiting for someone else to raise their head above the parapet.

To paraphrase the supposed quote of Edmund Burke
"All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

It really does sum up our little country me thinks.

Akrasia

[QUOTE=jmayo;60515006
You hardly expect them to say they are in favour of anarchy or no jobs ?
What do you want in their literature, muscial jingles or something [/quote]
I expect specifics that can constitute a mandate.
eg, if I am elected, I will spend all my resources on working for specific projects or goals.
Clearly identifiable targets and proposals that I can agree with or disagree with.
Not one piece of campaign literature I have received have had anything that could even remotely be described as a specific goal or proposal.

As it stands, everyone is for 'jobs' and against crime. Does this mean if jobs increase and crime falls that they've been a success? conversely, if the opposite happens, have they failed?

And not voting is a vote for the government and their PROVEN failed policies :rolleyes:

You are accusing me of failing to act responsibly by not voting, But I accuse you of failing to take responsibility for your own vote. If you elect someone on the basis that they're not in FF, and then they turn out to be even more corrupt or incompetent than the government they replaced, will you accept your responsibility for electing this guy that you knew nothing about?

or will you just go on about the duty to vote, no matter what the consequences are.

And then in 5 years, or whatever is the next election, you vote agianst his party.

and we have just play alternating rubbish governments for the rest of eternity because voting every 5 years is the epitamy of 'democracy' and the people feel like they've done their best, when all they've really done is re-enforced the system that is in itself the problem.

The people who march on the streets or blockade airports to protest against the war are far more politicised than the life long voter, and it is through these movements that the only real solution lies.

jmayo

Akrasia wrote: »

I expect specifics that can constitute a mandate.
eg, if I am elected, I will spend all my resources on working for specific projects or goals.
Clearly identifiable targets and proposals that I can agree with or disagree with.
Not one piece of campaign literature I have received have had anything that could even remotely be described as a specific goal or proposal.

You are accusing me of failing to act responsibly by not voting, But I accuse you of failing to take responsibility for your own vote. If you elect someone on the basis that they're not in FF, and then they turn out to be even more corrupt or incompetent than the government they replaced, will you accept your responsibility for electing this guy that you knew nothing about?

or will you just go on about the duty to vote, no matter what the consequences are.


and we have just play alternating rubbish governments for the rest of eternity because voting every 5 years is the epitamy of 'democracy' and the people feel like they've done their best, when all they've really done is re-enforced the system that is in itself the problem.

The people who march on the streets or blockade airports to protest against the war are far more politicised than the life long voter, and it is through these movements that the only real solution lies.

So your solution is lets protest on the streets, maybe have a riot or two ?
Perhaps you shoudl move to France.
SAdly we Irish don't do that type of thing, no matter how much we are shafted.

Meanwhile you refuse to vote becuase you don't get enough answers in their manifesto and you can't yank them out of power immediately if they displease you ?

If whoever gets in next screw up and are as big a bunch of chancers as the current shower I will vote against them.
Don't worry I am one of the few that does accept responsiblity for my actions, another rare occurrence in Ireland.

But, you are making an assumption that they are going to be as big a bunch of chancers as the current shower. At least the other main parties appear to have some half decent honest individuals who appear to give a f**k and I reckon they deserve a chance.

Meanwhile you sit on the ditch and lament the fact that there is no one there who tweeks your fancy ?

Tarzan007

Can not blame anyone for not voting, but I'll drag myself along :rolleyes: