[Daily Mail] Two-thirds of British voters want Government to break 'harmful' EU rules

oscarBravo

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1186076/Ripe-revolt-Two-thirds-British-voters-want-Government-break-harmful-EU-rules.html

This article is yet another example of the sort of steaming pile of poo we've come to expect from the British Euroskeptic press. There's not one - not one - example given of a so-called "harmful" EU rule.

I wonder how the survey questions were phrased? I note they're not quoted in the article.

View

oscarBravo wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1186076/Ripe-revolt-Two-thirds-British-voters-want-Government-break-harmful-EU-rules.html

This article is yet another example of the sort of steaming pile of poo we've come to expect from the British Euroskeptic press. There's not one - not one - example given of a so-called "harmful" EU rule.

I wonder how the survey questions were phrased? I note they're not quoted in the article.

For Eurosceptics, All EU rules are harmful

I guess the Daily Mail is doing its bit to drum up support for the UKIP.

Steviemak

View wrote: »

For Eurosceptics, All EU rules are harmful

I guess the Daily Mail is doing its bit to drum up support for the UKIP.

Sometimes I just wish the UK would leave the EU so that Irish people weren't polluted by this nonsense.

PopeBuckfastXVI

Steviemak wrote: »

Sometimes I just wish the UK would leave the EU so that Irish people weren't polluted by this nonsense.

Sometimes I just wish the Irish people would learn to think for themselves, instead of letting the Daily Fail turn them into euroskeptic tory little Englanders...

MikeC101

oscarBravo wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1186076/Ripe-revolt-Two-thirds-British-voters-want-Government-break-harmful-EU-rules.html

I wonder how the survey questions were phrased? I note they're not quoted in the article.

"if the EU were to impose legislation forcing parents to allow convicted paedophiles to share rooms with our children, would you want the Government to allow this?"

Something along those lines I'd imagine. Possibly even more hysterical.

PopeBuckfastXVI

MikeC101 wrote: »

"if the EU were to impose legislation forcing parents to allow convicted paedophiles to share rooms with our children, would you want the Government to allow this?"

Something along those lines I'd imagine. Possibly even more hysterical.

Or maybe 'Should the Government allow the EU to force/block cervical cancer injections [delete one option depending on Country]?'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/apr/18/bad-science-cancer-jabs-daily-mail

The Daily Fail is a focking rag and I wouldn't use it to wipe dogsh*t off the street.

markopantelic

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Sometimes I just wish the Irish people would learn to think for themselves, instead of letting the Daily Fail turn them into euroskeptic tory little Englanders...

So true.

P. Breathnach

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Sometimes I just wish the Irish people would learn to think for themselves ...

But I thought the purpose of this forum was that we could do their thinking for them.

That's why they are so confused.

jimmmy

oscarBravo wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1186076/Ripe-revolt-Two-thirds-British-voters-want-Government-break-harmful-EU-rules.html

This article is yet another example of the sort of steaming pile of poo we've come to expect from the British Euroskeptic press. There's not one - not one - example given of a so-called "harmful" EU rule.

I wonder how the survey questions were phrased? I note they're not quoted in the article.

You cannot deny though that there is a lot of scepticism in the UK against the EC...and a certain amount of people see the EC as far from perfect, even in this country which has gained a lot from EC funds etc over the years. Think what it is like in the UK, which has been the 2nd biggest contributer to the UK after Germany.

PopeBuckfastXVI

jimmmy wrote: »

You cannot deny though that there is a lot of scepticism in the UK against the EC...and a certain amount of people see the EC as far from perfect, even in this country which has gained a lot from EC funds etc over the years. Think what it is like in the UK, which has been the 2nd biggest contributer to the UK after Germany.

Hello my friend from the 1980's, how is all back there?

You should know that the West wins the Cold War, and Ireland are about to make it to their first world cup! You're about to embark on a decade of peace and prosperity in the 1990's

Enjoy the ride, watch out for a band called Nirvana and buy Apple stock...

PopeBuckfastXVI

jimmmy wrote: »

You cannot deny though that there is a lot of scepticism in the UK against the EU.

There surely is, most of it baseless hyperbole whipped up by sh*trags like the daily fail and the sun.

greendom

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

There surely is, most of it baseless hyperbole whipped up by sh*trags like the daily fail and the sun.

True, but the press reflects its readers' as well as influences them. There is a significant proportion of people in the UK who believe the EU to be below them and that the UK would be better off as an independent nation. Total crackpots but there's enough of them out there.

PopeBuckfastXVI

Yep Greendom, there's always been the 'Up yours Delors' brigade, it's just such a shame to see Irish people donning this attitude, especially when it comes out of the same mouths as the 'faack orff Paddy' brigade.

greendom

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Yep Greendom, there's always been the 'Up yours Delors' brigade, it's just such a shame to see Irish people donning this attitude, especially when it comes out of the same mouths as the 'faack orff Paddy' brigade.

True to have this attitude in Ireland makes even less sense than it does to have it in the UK

WooPeeA

Daily Mail is not a good source of information..

djpbarry

WooPeeA wrote: »

Daily Mail is not a good source of information..

That's like saying Stalin was not a nice man.

Simi

djpbarry wrote: »

That's like saying Stalin was not a nice man.

Well he wasn't...

nesf

oscarBravo wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1186076/Ripe-revolt-Two-thirds-British-voters-want-Government-break-harmful-EU-rules.html

This article is yet another example of the sort of steaming pile of poo we've come to expect from the British Euroskeptic press. There's not one - not one - example given of a so-called "harmful" EU rule.

I wonder how the survey questions were phrased? I note they're not quoted in the article.

It's worrying that you actually pay enough attention to the Daily Mail to spot this...

ShooterSF

oscarBravo wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1186076/Ripe-revolt-Two-thirds-British-voters-want-Government-break-harmful-EU-rules.html

This article is yet another example of the sort of steaming pile of poo we've come to expect from the British Euroskeptic press. There's not one - not one - example given of a so-called "harmful" EU rule.

I wonder how the survey questions were phrased? I note they're not quoted in the article.

Didn't the Irish times run a poll that asked what way people would vote if the lisbon treaty was ammened to ease their concerns. And then claimed people were in favour of a Yes vote.
Poll's in papers are agenda filling crap for both sides.

meganj

nesf wrote: »

It's worrying that you actually pay enough attention to the Daily Mail to spot this...

Know thine enemy.

There is growing support for the UK to leave the EU. It's the whole "we were once an empire" thing, they still believe tht they're entitled to more then they actually are. In addition to this I find the Daily Mail very amusing, I especially enjoy their Euro-skeptic approach to things tis most excellent. Fact of the matter is the UK thinks that the EU is responsible for all its various woes. what's even more amusing is if you go through people's comments on the Mail's website when we voted NO, it's all "well done our Celtic brothers" and so on. Tis cringe worthy i'm afraid! I do find myself wishing they would leave the EU if only so the country would fail miserably and then we could invade them and see how they like it...

ionix5891

meganj wrote: »

Know thine enemy.

There is growing support for the UK to leave the EU. It's the whole "we were once an empire" thing, they still believe tht they're entitled to more then they actually are. In addition to this I find the Daily Mail very amusing, I especially enjoy their Euro-skeptic approach to things tis most excellent. Fact of the matter is the UK thinks that the EU is responsible for all its various woes. what's even more amusing is if you go through people's comments on the Mail's website when we voted NO, it's all "well done our Celtic brothers" and so on. Tis cringe worthy i'm afraid! I do find myself wishing they would leave the EU if only so the country would fail miserably and then we could invade them and see how they like it...

let them leave, just make sure they don't drag us down with them

UK is fairly econnomically screwed with higher debts than the Weimar Republic, continuing recession even after a huge devaluation and finally a central bank printing money to largely finance the government spending

UK leaving the EU with no empire to fall back one would be an economic suicide

BlitzKrieg

Didnt the UK government want to join the euro back when it was being introduced but it would have been political suicide to do so though it might go along way of helping the British economy?

Funny how a government can survive a pointless war, but a changing of currency to help the economy would have destroyed it.

oscarBravo

nesf wrote: »

It's worrying that you actually pay enough attention to the Daily Mail to spot this...

It was emailed to me...

bokspring71

The result of the vote in the French referendum on the constitution, taken together with the Danish result and the Irish result of the treaty, should be more than enough evidence that its not just the UK where there is considerable unease about the EU across the EU. It's how that is addressed over the coming years that will determine the direction the EU will take.

PopeBuckfastXVI

bokspring71 wrote: »

The result of the vote in the French referendum on the constitution, taken together with the Danish result and the Irish result of the treaty, should be more than enough evidence that its not just the UK where there is considerable unease about the EU across the EU. It's how that is addressed over the coming years that will determine the direction the EU will take.

What about the Spanish and Luxembourg referenda on the constitution? What's that evidence of?

Funny how I never see anyone mention those when they talk about the French and Dutch results

djpbarry

bokspring71 wrote: »

The result of the vote in the French referendum on the constitution, taken together with the Danish result...

The Danes have done what now?

oscarBravo

djpbarry wrote: »

The Danes have done what now?

Voted against the Maastricht treaty (in the first referendum, which we all know is the answer that really counts). Obviously this signifies a rejection of the Lisbon treaty.

Do try to keep up.

bokspring71

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

What about the Spanish and Luxembourg referenda on the constitution? What's that evidence of?

Funny how I never see anyone mention those when they talk about the French and Dutch results

All the referenda, whether passed or not, point to a large number of people who are unseasy and unsure about the direction of the EU. Even where referenda/dums are passed, it generally is by a slim-ish margin showing large numbers still uneasy. Whether they are right or wrong isn't the issue, the issue is how that's accommodated or dealt with.

It has been fashionable to sneer at such people and mock them, but I'm not sure if this tactic is going to work for much longer, especially in an enlarged EU.

P. Breathnach

bokspring71 wrote: »

... It has been fashionable to sneer at such people and mock them, but I'm not sure if this tactic is going to work for much longer, especially in an enlarged EU.

Wow. The "no to Lisbon" movement is now playing for the sympathy vote.

Scofflaw

bokspring71 wrote: »

All the referenda, whether passed or not, point to a large number of people who are unseasy and unsure about the direction of the EU. Even where referenda/dums are passed, it generally is by a slim-ish margin showing large numbers still uneasy. Whether they are right or wrong isn't the issue, the issue is how that's accommodated or dealt with.

It has been fashionable to sneer at such people and mock them, but I'm not sure if this tactic is going to work for much longer, especially in an enlarged EU.

My own view would be that the majority of people have no real idea about the EU at all, or very much interest. We in Ireland used to know a fair bit more about it, but have failed to update ourselves during the boom.

It's as if we had a Building Society account, and used to be very interested in what happened in the Society because it really impacted our money, but we've had a dozen years of prosperity, with bank accounts in Dubai and leveraged loans in Macao. Every now and again we got a letter from the Society, and there was a vote or something, but we haven't been paying attention, because it didn't seem relevant to our new lifestyle. Now, suddenly, the party is over, and what's left is the Building Society account - but we're ten years out of touch.

cordially,
Scofflaw

bokspring71

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Wow. The "no to Lisbon" movement is now playing for the sympathy vote.

Are they? Where have you seen that? In any case, most politicians will do almost anything to get power, so it should hardly be a surprise. I guess.

scofflaw wrote: »

My own view would be that the majority of people have no real idea about the EU at all, or very much interest. We in Ireland used to know a fair bit more about it, but have failed to update ourselves during the boom.

It's as if we had a Building Society account, and used to be very interested in what happened in the Society because it really impacted our money, but we've had a dozen years of prosperity, with bank accounts in Dubai and leveraged loans in Macao. Every now and again we got a letter from the Society, and there was a vote or something, but we haven't been paying attention, because it didn't seem relevant to our new lifestyle. Now, suddenly, the party is over, and what's left is the Building Society account - but we're ten years out of touch.

I think it's possible the majority of people have very little idea about most things, whether it be the EU, or Brian Clowen, or psychokinesis, or the internal combustustion engine. However, in a democracy we have to allow for those with opinions which are plain wrong or which are based on false facts or decisions reached because the individual voter likes the colour of a particular politicians hair.

I think your point opens up a whole new argument about democracy and about how our democracy is no longer very democratic or answerable to the electorate. Many voters vote not with hard logic but because of a feeling they have about a person, a party or an organisation. Wring our hands about that as we might, we can't change it and can only try to educate and illuminate when we see it.

Scofflaw

bokspring71 wrote: »

Are they? Where have you seen that? In any case, most politicians will do almost anything to get power, so it should hardly be a surprise. I guess.

I don't consider that particularly accurate. Most politicians will say quite a lot of things to get elected - but the continuing silence on immigration, which is supposed to be such a huge issue, suggests that even there there are plenty of lines that don't get crossed in pursuit of power.

bokspring71 wrote: »

I think it's possible the majority of people have very little idea about most things, whether it be the EU, or Brian Clowen, or psychokinesis, or the internal combustustion engine. However, in a democracy we have to allow for those with opinions which are plain wrong or which are based on false facts or decisions reached because the individual voter likes the colour of a particular politicians hair.

While we do have to do so, there's no particular point in claiming, in that light, that a democratic is some kind of determination of truth. An electorate ignorant of a particular issue will give an ignorant verdict.

bokspring71 wrote: »

I think your point opens up a whole new argument about democracy and about how our democracy is no longer very democratic or answerable to the electorate. Many voters vote not with hard logic but because of a feeling they have about a person, a party or an organisation. Wring our hands about that as we might, we can't change it and can only try to educate and illuminate when we see it.

I tend to agree with you, but, again, it should be clear that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the way our democracy works - the problem is that the electorate is 'asleep at the wheel'. That means that the problem is not that "our democracy is no longer very democratic or answerable to the electorate", but that the electorate is not exercising its rights or requiring answers.

As you say, education and illumination is what is required - no amount of fiddling with the institutions will change things as long as the electorate are disengaged.

cordially,
Scofflaw

View

bokspring71 wrote: »

The result of the vote in the French referendum on the constitution, taken together with the Danish result and the Irish result of the treaty, should be more than enough evidence that its not just the UK where there is considerable unease about the EU across the EU.

Alternatively, the results might equally well be regarded as being very strong evidence that referenda are not a good method of making decisions on highly complex issues. Referenda are characterised by schoals of red herrings, most (but not all) deliberately raised by the No side groups with the primary intention of spreading confusion and clouding the decision making process.
Hence, the reason why they are rarely used in most countries.

Incidentally, why should we ignore the results of local, national and European elections where the electorate overwhelmingly return pro-EU parties and politicans throughout the EU? After all, if the No campaigners here are really representative of the Irish people, shouldn't we expect them to win 6 or 7 of the 12 seats in the forthcoming European elections?

getz

meganj wrote: »

Know thine enemy.

There is growing support for the UK to leave the EU. It's the whole "we were once an empire" thing, they still believe tht they're entitled to more then they actually are. In addition to this I find the Daily Mail very amusing, I especially enjoy their Euro-skeptic approach to things tis most excellent. Fact of the matter is the UK thinks that the EU is responsible for all its various woes. what's even more amusing is if you go through people's comments on the Mail's website when we voted NO, it's all "well done our Celtic brothers" and so on. Tis cringe worthy i'm afraid! I do find myself wishing they would leave the EU if only so the country would fail miserably and then we could invade them and see how they like it...

you just havent a clue do you ?this is some of the coments from our EU masters on the lisbon treaty----valery d,estaing--public opinion will be led to adopt without knowing it, the proposal that we dare not present to them directly, but will be hidden and disguised.--giuliana amato[italy]--the good thing about calling it a consitution is that no-one can ask for a referendum on it.--nicolas sarkozt [france]--the project of our founding farthers is compleat,the economic union is becoming a political union-.---75% of all new laws in ireland are now made in the eu, by politicians from other countrys

oscarBravo

getz wrote: »

75% of all new laws in ireland are now made in the eu, by politicians from other countrys

Prove it.

Scofflaw

getz wrote: »

you just havent a clue do you ?this is some of the coments from our EU masters on the lisbon treaty----valery d,estaing--public opinion will be led to adopt without knowing it, the proposal that we dare not present to them directly, but will be hidden and disguised.--giuliana amato[italy]--the good thing about calling it a consitution is that no-one can ask for a referendum on it.--nicolas sarkozt [france]--the project of our founding farthers is compleat,the economic union is becoming a political union-.---75% of all new laws in ireland are now made in the eu, by politicians from other countrys

Sadly, this is the same guff we've been hearing all along - antagonistic, inaccurate, and full of context-free quotes. 75% of new laws in Ireland are not made in the EU - the figure is about 28% at a stretch. Giscard d'Estaing was not claiming that people were being led to adopt proposals without knowing it, but that it would be a bad thing if they were. Not calling Lisbon a 'constitution' makes not a blind bit of difference to whether countries have referendums on it - that's something that is determined purely by the contents and the national constitution, which is why we're having one. The EC was an explicitly political project from day one - the purpose of it was to prevent European wars.

Really, if you're not going to contribute anything but a repetition of the same old tired cliches and vacuous slogans together with rudeness to other posters, I suggest you read rather than type for a while.

Scofflaw

O'Morris

Scofflaw wrote:

75% of new laws in Ireland are not made in the EU - the figure is about 28% at a stretch.

What's your source for this?

oscarBravo

O'Morris wrote: »

What's your source for this?

It's been on this forum, not long ago.

I'm curious: why didn't you ask getz for a source for the 75% figure?

getz

Scofflaw wrote: »

Sadly, this is the same guff we've been hearing all along - antagonistic, inaccurate, and full of context-free quotes. 75% of new laws in Ireland are not made in the EU - the figure is about 28% at a stretch. Giscard d'Estaing was not claiming that people were being led to adopt proposals without knowing it, but that it would be a bad thing if they were. Not calling Lisbon a 'constitution' makes not a blind bit of difference to whether countries have referendums on it - that's something that is determined purely by the contents and the national constitution, which is why we're having one. The EC was an explicitly political project from day one - the purpose of it was to prevent European wars.

Really, if you're not going to contribute anything but a repetition of the same old tired cliches and vacuous slogans together with rudeness to other posters, I suggest you read rather than type for a while.

Scofflaw

the comments i made of what was said by eu leaders are true the comment i made to the statement ;that said we should invade them, wich i find very insulting and as usual anti/british,was very mild,i do in no way believe that the the purpose of the eu was political /or to stop wars,it was all about making money,and as far as the uk leaving it ,i wished they would ,the uk tax payer has been putting more money into the eu and taking less out than any other eu country for instance france,that puts the same amount of cash in as the uk ,takes back 98% in farming subs ,if you want facts and fig i can come up with them-so please check on the rudeness of other posters before having a go at me-a bit of balance is needed here

oscarBravo

getz wrote: »

if you want facts and fig i can come up with them

I do. Please provide facts and figures to back up your assertion that 75% of our laws come from the EU.

passive

getz wrote: »

if you want facts and fig i can come up with them-

We clearly want them... please do?

getz

passive wrote: »

We clearly want them... please do?

all fact an fig are on a web site by the independence and democracy group---www.indemgroup.org

oscarBravo

getz wrote: »

all fact an fig are on a web site by the independence and democracy group---www.indemgroup.org

Why do you accept their figures without question?

P. Breathnach

getz wrote: »

all fact an fig are on a web site by the independence and democracy group---www.indemgroup.org

Can you be a bit more helpful? I can't find the 75% of our laws bit.

Steviemak

getz wrote: »

the uk tax payer has been putting more money into the eu and taking less out than any other eu country

Total lies - I suspect??

EDIT: Please provide back up to this statement.

oscarBravo

Steviemak wrote: »

Total lies.

Don't accuse people of lying, thanks. If it's factually inaccurate, refute it with facts.

28064212

From the indem.org website:

Who we are - Our Program

The Independence/Democracy Group in the European Parliament was set up on 20 July 2004. It incorporates EU-critics, eurosceptics and eurorealists. The main goals of the Group are to reject the Treaty establishing a constitution for Europe and to oppose all forms of centralisation.

So not exactly a non-biased group. Not to mention it includes the poor excuse for a politician that is Kathy Sinnott

Steviemak

oscarBravo wrote: »

Don't accuse people of lying, thanks. If it's factually inaccurate, refute it with facts.

Agreed. But I can not let a poster state incorrectly that the UK is the biggest contributer to the EU when it is totally wrong and misleading. I would ask him to back up such a grossly incorrect statement with facts.

If he can't back it up is it not therefore for a lie?

sink

It's very easy to find.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eu_budget#State_by_state_analysis

markesmith

Couple of points.

1. Daily Mail is a glorified tabloid, and a bastion of Euroscepticism.

2. No-one is quoting reliable figures here, so it all just comes across as conjecture.

3. Ireland is not the UK! The arguments that the Mail, Express, Telegraph and Times (London) make re the EU are not, generally, applicable to us.

djpbarry

Scofflaw wrote: »

Sadly, this is the same guff we've been hearing all along - antagonistic, inaccurate, and full of context-free quotes. 75% of new laws in Ireland are not made in the EU - the figure is about 28% at a stretch. Giscard d'Estaing was not claiming that people were being led to adopt proposals without knowing it, but that it would be a bad thing if they were. Not calling Lisbon a 'constitution' makes not a blind bit of difference to whether countries have referendums on it - that's something that is determined purely by the contents and the national constitution, which is why we're having one. The EC was an explicitly political project from day one - the purpose of it was to prevent European wars.

You should bottle your patience and sell it on eBay - you'd make a fortune.