Making things better: your input is needed!

fitz

Ok, there've been discussions in the last number of days about the faults and perception of this forum.

Myself and Frobisher are working on some things in the background, but I'd like to use what DeV has been referring to as the "network brain" and get ideas and input from you guys, the users and contributors on this forum.

Without getting personal, I'd like to hear what you guys think isn't working, what is working, what you'd like to see more off, etc...

I'm not promising that everything posted here will be put in place, but everything will be looked at and considered.

Over to you!

DamagedTrax

personally i think, that when someone starts a thread about recording costs we should be allowed to pitch our prices without the fear of being banned. surely this forum can be a place to try get work aswell as learning?

maybe have a rule. you pitch your own price and who you've worked with and thats it. if the OP wants to get in touch then its up to them if they feel like it.

the only option at the moment is pm'ing the OP and im not crazy about that as they might not want a flood of messages from a bunch of jokers like ourselves.

im not talking about advertisements from studios or engineers, just replies to people looking for us.

fitz

Trax, thanks for the input.
We're looking at a way to make commercial interaction easier, but without it turning the forum into a shilling-ground. What we have in mind should more than cover what you're talking about.

Keep it coming folks!

DamagedTrax

cool. in the mean time are we allowed to answers these types of posts in a commercial way?

fitz

I would suggest leaving the commercials (price) out of any response.
Tell the user what you can for them, who you've worked with, whatever, and that they can PM you if they're interested in working with you. Leaves it up to them.

DamagedTrax

sound

jtsuited

Seeing as I dished out a good bit of negativity about the forum, I may as well chime in (by the way I find this forum very good excepting the issues I raised):

Suggestion 1: Stickied OffTopic thread similar to the 'badbeat/moaning/venting' thread in poker. For all video links, interviews, and other stuff that might be of interest to users but not directly involving any of the forum's members.

Suggestion 2 : Zero tolerance of condescension (and this coming from me, the irony!) to those less experienced. I think it's fairly obvious the perceived vibe of the place turned away a good few users because of this.

Using status or experience as the fundamental basis for argument (while sometimes being relevant) is really just a pain in the hole, because for every 'respected' opinion of someone, there is someone more experienced and who has achieved more with a differing one.

This is especially relevant regarding the dance music heads, as a large part of the electronic music 'ethos' (and many of the avant-garde arts) is based around a certain ambivalence (and some would say contempt) towards what is standard method, what has been done in the past, and conformist concepts like 'industry standards'.

A more open-minded approach to why different people are here. I may have mentioned this before but because we're into Music Production does not necessarily mean we give two hoots about the 'Music Business' (says he with a record deal, a manager, etc.).

I was very dissappointed reading the 'Let's hear your music thread'. I'm a firm believer in total honesty with people (even more so if it's honest criticism), but there is such a thing as tact, and believe it or not people are very shy and have fragile egos.

As far as I can see, there is far too much of a 'standards' based vibe around here. Rather than conversations of 'what's good, what's bad' maybe there should be more 'whatever you're into, cool, let us know if you have any questions we might be able to help answering'.

There is nothing more common in this world than unknown massively talented people. I think in many ways the general vibe of this forum up until now has done little to change that fact.

Jaysus I better stop now before I ramble any more!

TelePaul

I agree with pretty much everything jtsuited said, but will add the following.

I've argued with some of the guys to a stand-still about the shift from amateur to pro recording, but I've also seen newbies treated with derision - two very seperate issues there, and I feel the modding was very poor on both counts.

DamagedTrax

TelePaul wrote: »

I agree with pretty much everything jtsuited said, but will add the following.

I've argued with some of the guys to a stand-still about the shift from amateur to pro recording, but I've also seen newbies treated with derision - two very seperate issues there, and I feel the modding was very poor on both counts.

gotta agree. theres a few too many smart comments thrown about the place by certain individuals when all thats wanted by a newbie is an answer.

dav nagle

Way too many discussions based on the past in my opinion. I am a futurist so many might believe the past is equally important and I respect that but every five minutes a topic is posted and it feels like the musical trivia debate and music production forums (hence 'and music production forums'). I whole heartedly agree that good honest feedback will do you me and the rest of the world good but slamming someone for common rookie audio errors is totally mean and unnecessary. I think a dance sub forum would be cool even though it is not my forte, it would put all the infected into one nicely quarantined area, every now and then I would jump in and learn something no doubt, maybe even drop a few bubble loves with the dance forum! I like seeing people getting banned for promoting their studios without reading the charter I don’t like the idea of studios competing in any way other than a PM or a recommendation. That is about it, still the forum is good fun, full of great contacts and good people who all share a similar interest in audio editing and production.

Beruthiel

TelePaul wrote: »

I've argued with some of the guys to a stand-still about the shift from amateur to pro recording, but I've also seen newbies treated with derision - two very seperate issues there, and I feel the modding was very poor on both counts.

I expect that this will no longer happen.
If it does, do not be afraid to report it so it can be acted upon.

PaulBrewer

dav nagle wrote: »

Way too many discussions based on the past in my opinion.

History is what educates you Grasshopper. Most notably by helping you not make mistakes of the past.

As an old timer you see the cycles that popular-music takes - what's popular at any given time is usually related to what was popular 20 years(ish) before.

11811

Perhaps a dedicated Noob section? where those starting off can query set-ups and ask silly questions without fear of a slagging? - cause to be honest sometimes basic things catch me out and I'd feel a right ejit asking here!

Anyway, yeah, back on topic..i dont think a seperate newbie section would do any good..I find sometimes the forum gets most interesting when its more technique discussed, rather than whatever fantastic new preamp or whatever..Perhaps a sub forum for paul and the lads, so they can amuse themselves looking at pics of expensive gear..

PaulBrewer

11811 wrote: »

Perhaps a dedicated Noob section? where those starting off can query set-ups and ask silly questions without fear of a slagging? - cause to be honest sometimes basic things catch me out and I'd feel a right ejit asking here!

I suggested this last year, I think it was.

I always felt and still do, that a Learner Slope would be good before the cut and thrust of the Black Slopes .... at the time the consensus was against that .

Perhaps the forum's view has changed on that?

However, I always try and answer lots of noobs questions unlike some of my experienced peers.

PaulBrewer

Deleted User wrote: »

Perhaps a sub forum for paul and the lads, so they can amuse themselves looking at pics of expensive gear..

I suggested that too before !

Why would we want to look at pictures when we have the real thng?;)

11811

yes I think i remember that, in fairness its a great opportunity for the less experienced to get good advice for you more experienced folk - but questions like "whats an M-box"* seem to get lost in the midst of discussions over the lastest SSL channel strip!


*I'm well aware!:pac:

jtsuited

If you haven't noticed Paul, most of the problems that have been outlined about this forum are actually about you.
So how about you cut your sh1t and we can all save the mods a whole load of bother?
I'm on your ignore list now though so maybe someone else can echo the sentiment.

fitz

Jt, your opinion is well known. One more comment and your gone for a break. Next post which isn't a suggest on how to improve the board will result in the same.

TelePaul

Beruthiel wrote: »

I expect that this will no longer happen.

Why not?

jtsuited

fitz wrote: »

Jt, your opinion is well known. One more comment and your gone for a break. Next post which isn't a suggest on how to improve the board will result in the same.

fair enough. that was a suggestion though.

edit: sh1t better post a suggestion:

maybe a weekly discussion sticky?
like a 'this week we be discussioning Parallel Compression'
Or 'this week......Workflow methods - are you a trooper or a passivist?' where we could all have a mighty aul discussion about our different work methods (cause everyone's got a different one).

A good few fellas will chime in with some valuable input, and over time these sticky's will be a great source of information. A way of clearly archiving useful knowledge and views imo.

PaulBrewer

I don't know how many MP Forum production members there actually are.

There certainly aren't too many regular posters.

Because of that perhaps we shouldn't be too hasty in slicing everything up?

However Sean does have a point regarding a Dance Music Production forum as it seems to me to have the least in common with 'general' Music Production.

Could we split it into technique and equipment perhaps?..

And there is already a dance/electronic and djing forum somewhere..

jtsuited

Deleted User wrote: »

And there is already a dance/electronic and djing forum somewhere..

ah jaysus where have you been the past few days???

love the sig btw.

so any takers on the weekly discussion topic stickies? Sort of an 'album of the week' (think that's what it's called on some of the music forums)type system.

PaulBrewer

Deleted User wrote: »

Could we split it into technique and equipment perhaps?..

Might be difficult as the 2 are so intertwined?

Nah...
here's a compressor, see all its nice knobs..
and
This is how you might go about using a compressor..
See where im going with this?..

JTs idea about the sticky could be good..but for some reason im not too sure of i dont really like stickys?..i never read the things anyway..

TelePaul

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I always felt and still do, that a Learner Slope would be good before the cut and thrust of the Black Slopes .... at the time the consensus was against that .

To be fair Paul, I seem to remember advocating a more balanced approach to the forum - newbs and pros - and having that idea shot-down by yourself (amongst a great many others!). I'm not making this personal, but I think maybe we're all in danger of viewing things with rose-tinted glasses.

I'd love a sub-forum for newbies...I PM'd one guy to talk him through buying and setting up a cheap sound-card for his son when the best the MP forum could manage was "buy a Mac". Not to get into point-scoring, but I think a newb forum would be a good move.

squibs

1. Beruthiel wrote: »

   I expect that this will no longer happen.If it does, do not be afraid to report it so it can be acted upon.

   When was the last time, before this, that we had a woman posting in here? I can't be 100% that all the usual suspects are male, but I'm 99.9999%. More wimmins plz (happily married - just want the added dimension that the female perspective brings to a forum - AH would have spontaneously combusted years ago without it)
2. There is a certain amount of elitism, and I don't think it is intentional. If we do a pro/amateur forum split then the pros wont visit the amateur forum, and vice versa. Studiorat leads the way for helpful advice without attitude.
3. A little bit more activity based stuff can't hurt - and I know it has been tried before. I'm talking mix-offs, mix rescues, collaborations, etc.
4. Paul's been a gent - organising extracurricular activities, and pointing out valuable resources. More of that can't hurt, but the rest of us need to pipe up too. Remember when he offered to help set up Q&A sessions on boards with Irish producers? An excellent opportunity that fizzled due to lack of interest.

Some knowledgeable people on the forum are underappreciated!

oh - and no commercial posts under any circumstances please. Create a sticky with regular poster's rates if necessary.

Rockshamrover

I think the success of any forum depends on the input of it's members. Unfortunately not all members are equal and in the MP forum there can be extremes not usual in other forums on Boards. The Mac guys v the PC guys. The Pro Tools guys v the Logic guys. The Dance guys V to Rock guys.
Big studio v small studio v home studio. Given all of that though, we keep coming back and signing in so something is working.

Then there is the pro v the amateur. The guys with the knowledge don't necessarily want to come here to babysit the non pro's (I'm a non pro). That's perfectly reasonable tbh. Nobody here is obliged to do anything for anybody else but every day good things happen here and people get helped or pointed in the right direction.

I think all that missing is a bit of order. Everything gets lumped in together. There is no real focus on the different aspects of production. It's one big room full of people talking about whatever.

We need a few Germans around here.

PaulBrewer

TelePaul wrote: »

To be fair Paul, I seem to remember advocating a more balanced approach to the forum - newbs and pros - and having that idea shot-down by yourself (amongst a great many others!). I'm not making this personal, but I think maybe we're all in danger of viewing things with rose-tinted glasses.

I'd love a sub-forum for newbies...I PM'd one guy to talk him through buying and setting up a cheap sound-card for his son when the best the MP forum could manage was "buy a Mac". Not to get into point-scoring, but I think a newb forum would be a good move.

That's possible.

I remember thinking a 'Learner slope' within the main forum might be good rather that an entirely separate Forum.

Noobs helping Noobs might be a less than ideal basis for a forum.

However to make that decision we'd need stats, how many people post here, how many Noob questions etc.

I seem to think that every couple of days I answer a Noob question, so there does seem to be some pretty decent activity within that area and that might indicate that they don't feel unwelcome here..... but maybe there are many more Noobs who do feel that they don't want to post.

Do Mods have access to that info I wonder?

PaulBrewer

Is that the sort of info a private poll could bring to light?

PaulBrewer

Deleted User wrote: »

Nah...
here's a compressor, see all its nice knobs..
and
This is how you might go about using a compressor..
See where im going with this?..

Never work!

catho_monster

Ok, I'm a lurker, I don't post because I don't have anything of value to add to threads generally, but I really feel like I need add my opinion on this topic.

I believe that there is a general consensus that this forum could do better. Many people are unhappy. I don't like the attitude or direction that many of the threads go, and whatever about other poeple, this puts me off.
Take today for example: the subjectivity thread was legend for two pages, then it descended into personal digs, off topic twadle, and "back on topic" tongue-in-cheek rubbish. Imagine how useful that thread would have been if it'd continued the way the first two pages had?
I 100% support jt's suggestion for an off-topic thread where people could just chat - thereby keeping the rest of the threads on-topic and USEFUL.

PaulBrewer

Rockshamrover wrote: »

I think all that missing is a bit of order. Everything gets lumped in together. There is no real focus on the different aspects of production. It's one big room full of people talking about whatever.

I like that.

Think of it as a Luas of Musical Ideas, ya jump on and jump off. No?

jtsuited

catho_monster wrote: »

Take today for example: the subjectivity thread was legend for two pages, then it descended into personal digs, off topic twadle, and "back on topic" tongue-in-cheek rubbish. .

agree 100% (even though I didn't behave myself impecably by any stretch). I actually think that whole thread is a perfect embobodiment of the positives and negatives of this forum.

I didn't post it to start an argument. I posted it precisely for what happened in the first two pages. Well we saw what happened after that, and when a poster joins a thread just dying for a row (rich coming from me I know) and behaves like that it ruins it.

PaulBrewer

catho_monster wrote: »

Ok, I'm a lurker, I don't post because I don't have anything of value to add to threads generally, but I really feel like I need add my opinion on this topic.

I believe that there is a general consensus that this forum could do better. Many people are unhappy. I don't like the attitude or direction that many of the threads go, and whatever about other poeple, this puts me off.
Take today for example: the subjectivity thread was legend for two pages, then it descended into personal digs, off topic twadle, and "back on topic" tongue-in-cheek rubbish. Imagine how useful that thread would have been if it'd continued the way the first two pages had?
I 100% support jt's suggestion for an off-topic thread where people could just chat - thereby keeping the rest of the threads on-topic and USEFUL.

I disagree - I think it was a pointless thread and has already fizzled out.
But I think it's good you've posted and hope you'll continue too. More opinions will give this place a bit o fizz!

fitz

I've just delete a load of waffle from this thread.
Some great ideas have come up here, some valid criticisms, and everything will be taken on board.

A lot of behaviour in the last few days has essentially given direct ideas as to what should be in the new Charter, behaviour we need to stamp out if the forum is going to improve. People have gotten away with certain posts for now, but it's not going to continue. As Rocksham said...a bit of order is needed, and hopefully the new Charter will provide that.

Now, everyone take a few deep breaths and get back to ideas about how to improve things. If someone's already posted a criticism, please just thank that post.
I don't want any more arguments kicking off.

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I disagree - I think it was a pointless thread and has already fizzled out.
But I think it's good you've posted and hope you'll continue too. More opinions will give this place a bit o fizz!

wtf?
so why post on a pointless thread?

It fizzled out because of your arrival. This is a fcukin joke!!!!!

fitz

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I disagree - I think it was a pointless thread and has already fizzled out.
But I think it's good you've posted and hope you'll continue too. More opinions will give this place a bit o fizz!

Paul, knock off the antagonism. I've had enough of it.

PaulBrewer

fitz wrote: »

Paul, knock off the antagonism. I've had enough of it.

Sorry, unintended as such.

TelePaul

PaulBrewer wrote: »

That's possible.

I remember thinking a 'Learner slope' within the main forum might be good rather that an entirely separate Forum.

Noobs helping Noobs might be a less than ideal basis for a forum.

Sub-Forums seem to be the order of the day. Some people aspire to a certain standard in their productions, others are happy to throw down a few rough demos. I've found myself somewhere in the middle, and make a point of answering noob questions (because that was me two years ago on a similar forum).

woodsdenis

Interesting thread this.

I will give my general opinion of the forum without getting into specifics about the construction of it. Neurojazz and others seems to have a great knowledge on the technical side of things , so I wont embarrass myself with my lack of knowledge.

1. This is an Irish MP forum. I see it as a base for the sharing of knowledge and ideas in an informed and civilized way. If I have a particular problem with Protools for example I wouldn't post it here. I would go to the DUC where there is a wide variety of collective knowledge about all things Protools. The same applies to Logic/Cubase etc, they all have there own user groups. That is not to say that if someone posts a specific Protools problem here that I wont chime in if I can help.

2. There are other forums that deal all types of music genres. Gearslutz comes to mind.

3. There is absolutely no point in creating an Irish Gearslutz/PSW/Womb.
There simply isn't enough people on this board to sustain it.

4. So what does everyone want? I suggest everyone focusses on the mission
statement or ideals for the forum for a minute ,before discussing technicalities.

5. I will state mine again. A forum where Music Production can be discussed
in an informed and civilized way. We can actually help each other here you know.

Ireland is a very small country with a tiny music business. There is really no point in bickering about the minutia of the recording process. Nobody, no matter how long they have been doing this knows it all. Also dont discount,
out of musical prejudice what somebody with a different experience might have to offer.

PaulBrewer

TelePaul wrote: »

Sub-Forums seem to be the order of the day.

Yes, it might be the best compromise. Let's see what changes come!

PaulBrewer

woodsdenis wrote: »

Also dont discount,

I agree with that bit!

ZV Yoda

I don't think the forum is in any need of major surgery. One of the main problems is that there's a lot of strong personalities on here… which means lots of personality clashes & a lot of sh1te talk… so it's just like the pub on a Friday night then?

Joking aside though, there’s a wealth of experience here & some really good advice has been provided irrespective of peoples’ experience, background or perspectives… and that’s what it’s all about really.

I think it's a bit of a mountain out of a mole hill… if people chill out, live & let live… that will sort out most of the agro. At the end of the day, if you really don't like somebody's opinion/attitude, you can either:

1. Let them wind you up
2. Just say “feck it, why should I lose sleep over some head on a website?”.

After that, I think bit of housecleaning / organisation will sort out the rest. Rockshamrover said it all really...

Rockshamrover wrote: »

Nobody here is obliged to do anything for anybody else but every day good things happen here and people get helped or pointed in the right direction.

I think all that missing is a bit of order. Everything gets lumped in together. There is no real focus on the different aspects of production. It's one big room full of people talking about whatever.

We need a few Germans around here.

ICN

ZV Yoda wrote: »

I don't think the forum is in any need of major surgery. One of the main problems is that there's a lot of strong personalities on here… which means lots of personality clashes & a lot of sh1te talk… so it's just like the pub on a Friday night then? ...

LOL - Spot on 100% correct!

11811

Rockshamrover wrote: »

We need a few Germans around here.

Sie haben einen!!:D

seannash

if you are going to sticky somethings id suggest you delete som e of the stickies in place at the moment.
rats monthly gear horn has been pretty dead the past while(no offence to studiorat)
im sure theres a few more that could go too

Seziertisch

I think giving the people the option to have a face to face meeting would be a good thing. As someone who relatively recently joined the forum, I initially didn't know what to make of some people (based on their posts), and having met some of them realised that what could have been interpreted as someone being a bit of an arsehole online just didn't apply in person.

This is the Internet, it is a limited (i.e. written) media. it is very possible to misconstrue stuff or indeed for someone to give the wrong impression with a clumsy post. Also a lot of the posters know each other personally already, which leads to a lot of injokes and banter (as you would expect) which can be kind of off-putting for someone who isn't "in the loop", as it can seem like they are excluded from the loop (which isn't the case in my experience). I would say that some sort of group meeting should be organised to allow people (if possible) to get to know each other in person face. Obviously geographical restrictions would make it difficult for some people to attend, but still and all I think some of the tensions that exist between some people's online personas could be diffused by a face to face meeting.

Don't judge a book by its cover (or indeed a boll*cks by the shade of pube that covers it ...)

DamagedTrax

^^ yeah, lets have a night in the pub? :cool: