I'm really starting to hate meat

Irish Guitarist

I stopped eating meat just last year. At first I thought I'd never be able to be a vegetarian but now the thought of meat sickens me. I don't mean the taste of meat as I eat a lot of meat substitutes like Quorn and other meat free burgers and sausages. However when I see people eating meat I see them eating a dead animal rather than food.
A really big problem for me is that I love wildlife. One of my favourite activities is giving the swans and ducks in the park some wholegrain bread and lettuce. I say this is a problem because I really can't stand to see anyone cook or eat duck. I can just about stomach watching someone eat other meat like beef or chicken, but not duck (even when I did eat meat I never had the urge to eat duck). If one of those cookery programs where someone is cooking duck comes on the television I have to change the channel or walk away if someone else is watching it.
I was about to go out to give the ducks in the park some bread a couple of days ago when I saw a family member cooking dinner for them self. This dinner was... duck. I can't separate the image of this family member eating duck from the ducks I see in the park on a daily basis.
This probably all sounds weird but I just wanted to get it out of my system.

jape

Hi there,

I'm vegetarian too and feel pretty much the same way. The reason I think you don't like people eating ducks are like you said, you see them in the park etc living happily and can't imagine why someone would want to take that away from them so they can enjoy the taste of their flesh for a few minutes.

I'd say you would feel the same about people eating chicken if you regularly saw chickens.

Anyway I think it's fair to say most vegetarians share your views.

Welcome to the board!

rediguana

I really enjoy eating meat but I am also very interested in wildlife and animals. I will be getting set up with chickens in a week or two and it will be interesting to see if my more tender-hearted wife continues to eat chicken after we have them as pets.

It must be said, animals themselves can be quite cruel, in terms of eating each other.

There is no denying it, when you eat meat you're eating a dead animal. Meat, or steak or whatever, sounds much better. It would be an interesting experiment to see what the effect on steak sales in a given restaurant would be if the menu was changed to read "Dead Cow" instead of "steak".

raah!

I think you are all being a bit harsh on cozmik, the op says "I can't stand to see people eat meat" . So in many ways this is a thread about meat eaters, they are more than justified in defending themselves then, there are many good considered arguments for eating meat.

Slaphead07

raah! wrote: »

I think you are all being a bit harsh on cozmik, the op says "I can't stand to see people eat meat" .

But the OP doesn't say he wants to stop them.
But The OP doesn't ask how to make them feel guilty about it.
and only Cosmik has gone into a meat-eating forum to troll.

btw, I'm 30 years a vegetarian and I've yet to hear "good considered arguments for eating meat". I've heard a lot of ill-informed ignorant ones (often from doctors) but none that would ever make me reconsider.

Silent Partner

raah! wrote: »

I think you are all being a bit harsh on cozmik, the op says "I can't stand to see people eat meat" . So in many ways this is a thread about meat eaters, they are more than justified in defending themselves then, there are many good considered arguments for eating meat.

The OP does say that but what he means is he can't stand to see people eat meat because it makes him feel ill and not judging the people eating the meat. He's only talking about his reaction to seeing meat being eaten. Nothing to do with the people doing the eating.

Also, Cosmik intellegently posts "humans are meant to be ominvores, check your teeth". That to me is an inflammatory and provocative statement designed only to antagonise what is a section of the forum for vegetarians and vegans. Why? Go elsewhere. Also, "If you can't face the fact that your meal once mooed or clucked or baaed, it had cute little eyes and a button nose, then by all means eat something else".

Isn't a little redundant as vegetarians have chosen to eat something else?

Tar.Aldarion

I've deleted Cozmiks post and those directly replying to him/her and quoting it. Feel free to stray alittle off topic but please just report posts like that. If you want to talk about teeth and things and if you should be vegetarian or not by all means make a seperate thread.

Cozmik is on a warning, and if acts up similarly, will be banned again.

Irish Guitarist wrote:

I stopped eating meat just last year. At first I thought I'd never be able to be a vegetarian but now the thought of meat sickens me. I don't mean the taste of meat as I eat a lot of meat substitutes like Quorn and other meat free burgers and sausages. However when I see people eating meat I see them eating a dead animal rather than food.
A really big problem for me is that I love wildlife. One of my favourite activities is giving the swans and ducks in the park some wholegrain bread and lettuce. I say this is a problem because I really can't stand to see anyone cook or eat duck. I can just about stomach watching someone eat other meat like beef or chicken, but not duck (even when I did eat meat I never had the urge to eat duck). If one of those cookery programs where someone is cooking duck comes on the television I have to change the channel or walk away if someone else is watching it.
I was about to go out to give the ducks in the park some bread a couple of days ago when I saw a family member cooking dinner for them self. This dinner was... duck. I can't separate the image of this family member eating duck from the ducks I see in the park on a daily basis.
This probably all sounds weird but I just wanted to get it out of my system.

A lot of people feel like you and a lot don't. Everybody is different. I wouldn't be squeamish about anything but others would be squeamish and disgusted to varying degrees, it's prefectly normal. Like you with ducks, I would be around alot of farm animals, so I wouldn't particularly be happy with people eating my friendly pals the cows jsut for their pleasure and so forth.

By the way, I too enjoy feeding ducks/swans, if the seagulls don't get their beaks in first.

cozmik

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I've deleted Cozmiks post

Your intolerance will only prohibit the advancement of your community.

Tar.Aldarion

Your post was nonsense and inflammatory, nothing got to do with anything in this thread. If you want to discuss this decision, do so via PM. Any further comments relating to it on this thread will see you banned from the forum.

raah!

Silent Partner wrote: »

The OP does say that but what he means is he can't stand to see people eat meat because it makes him feel ill and not judging the people eating the meat. He's only talking about his reaction to seeing meat being eaten. Nothing to do with the people doing the eating.

Also, Cosmik intellegently posts "humans are meant to be ominvores, check your teeth". That to me is an inflammatory and provocative statement designed only to antagonise what is a section of the forum for vegetarians and vegans. Why? Go elsewhere. Also, "If you can't face the fact that your meal once mooed or clucked or baaed, it had cute little eyes and a button nose, then by all means eat something else".

Isn't a little redundant as vegetarians have chosen to eat something else?

I see your point there, cozmik's post was a bit trolly now that I think of it.
But certainly when you say "I can't stand to see such and such" there is an implicit criticism of such and such in that statement. I simply thought that this would warrant a "defensive" post. But yes, you are right about most of that.

I'm 30 years a vegetarian and I've yet to hear "good considered arguments for eating meat"

Perhaps they simply do not seem good and considered from the point of view of a 30 years vegetarian. As for me, I find the arguments about the sentiency of animals "good and considered", but I have only been a vegetarian for nearly a year, and also have not properly looked into this. But there are alot of complications in where you draw the line...etc.

Take bees for example, now I've heard this argument used for cows too, which I don't really agree with, but I'll use it for bees to make it seem more plausable. The argument is simply that bee's don't give a crap about their lives, and act only on instinct, and that we are putting more value on their lives than they are, and if a bee lived in a cage all it's life it wouldn't bee (:)) able to tell the difference. Anyway, I suppose it depends on your reasons for being a vegetarian, I think for most people the reasons are too varied and what have you to go about saying there are no 'considered' counter argument.

Edit: Also, for me wether or not to be a vegetarian is a question of ethics, so I don't really care about health arguments, and you can't really just say somones moral thinking is just "wrong"... well you could, but that's just opinion. So from that point of view there are an infinity of "considered arugments" against it.

cozmik

raah! wrote: »

"I can't stand to see such and such" there is an implicit criticism of such and such in that statement.

Indeed, this is a common tactic you will see used by vegetarians time and time again, they are very sneaky in their attacks against meat eaters.

cozmik

jape wrote: »

can't imagine why someone would want to take that away from them so they can enjoy the taste of their flesh for a few minutes.

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I wouldn't particularly be happy with people eating my friendly pals the cows jsut for their pleasure

Eating meat isn't just about the enjoyment or pleasure as you both wrongly assume. Meat is a nutritious food, and makes a valuable contribution to a balanced diet.

Slaphead07

cozmik wrote: »

Indeed, this is a common tactic you will see used by vegetarians time and time again, they are very sneaky in their attacks against meat eaters.

Paranoid much?

Tar.Aldarion

cozmik wrote: »

Eating meat isn't just about the enjoyment or pleasure as you both wrongly assume. Meat is a nutritious food, and makes a valuable contribution to a balanced diet.

Since you can get the nutrients elsewhere easily, it is killing and eating things for your pleasure.


Teeth posts deleted, make your own thread. Any more nutritiony type posts will be moved to a seperate thread with these or deleted, depending on content.

RHunce

op its the circle of life, do you think animals feel sorry for what they eat?

Slaphead07

RHunce wrote: »

op its the circle of life, do you think animals feel sorry for what they eat?

Animals have no such feelings but have humans not evolved beyond the level of predatory animals?

cozmik

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Since you can get the nutrients elsewhere easily, it is killing and eating things for your pleasure.

Your arrogance is truly astounding, do you think it is so because you say so?

Tar.Aldarion

It is so, because it is so. Convince me otherwise.

meathstevie

Slaphead07 wrote: »

Animals have no such feelings but have humans not evolved beyond the level of predatory animals?

Most definitly, we have domesticated our favourite subjects of predatory behaviour bred them to our desires and called it farming. Ok, I know I'll be talking to an overwhelming majority of vegetarians here but folks please try not to put a pair of lovely pink shades over your eyes and try to create the illusion that humans are something they aren't. Fundamentaly a human is an omnivore that will eat plants as well as meat and will hunt, scavenge or farm. If you feel that for some reason or other you want to break from that evolutionary behaviour that's absolutely fine by me, I won't respect or disrespect you any more or less for it.

cozmik

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

It is so, because it is so. Convince me otherwise.

I can only speak for myself and as I said eating meat isn't just about the enjoyment of the food for me. The nutritional benefit is equally important. Take sardines for example.

In James Villas' essay The Unsung Sardine in a 1984 issue of Town & Country, he writes that, "Ounce for ounce, sardines provide more calcium and phosphorus than milk, more protein than steak, more potassium than bananas, and more iron than cooked spinach". If that wasn't enough, sardines are also rich in omega-3 fatty acids.

http://www.eddybles.com/sundried-tomato-sardine-recipe/

and the great thing is you can eat them straight from the tin,now how's that for easy? lol

Slaphead07

meathstevie wrote: »

If you feel that for some reason or other you want to break from that evolutionary behaviour that's absolutely fine by me, I won't respect or disrespect you any more or less for it.

A "break from that evolutionary behaviour"? Do you think eating meat is some sort or progression? I don't. It may have been necessary once but not anymore. We don't have to farm animals to survive anymore, to me it's evolution to be able to live well (and I do) without killing animals and eating the corpses.

The only reason people still eat meat is because it tastes nice. That's it. That's not evolution, that's the assumption that humans are superior to animals so the point where they can slaughter and eat them at will. In general vegetarians don't have that superiority complex (although constantly accused of it)

Slaphead07

cozmik wrote: »

Your arrogance is truly astounding, do you think it is so because you say so?

There's worse things than arrogance. That a person can live without killing and eating animals is a given. You're in a forum full of them. If you choose to eat animals, fish or poultry it's only because you want to, not that you have to. It's simple greed. Accept that and you'll soon be the road to independent thought.

cozmik

Slaphead07 wrote: »

There's worse things than arrogance.

One of which is condescension,

for example

It's simple greed. Accept that and you'll soon be the road to independent thought.

Seriously, some of you need to tone down the elitist snooty attitude. It's pathetic.

Slaphead07

cozmik wrote: »

It's pathetic.

There's worse things than being pathetic.

cozmik

ButterflyGirl23

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

One of my favourite activities is giving the swans and ducks in the park some wholegrain bread and lettuce. I say this is a problem because I really can't stand to see anyone cook or eat duck. I can just about stomach watching someone eat other meat like beef or chicken, but not duck (even when I did eat meat I never had the urge to eat duck). If one of those cookery programs where someone is cooking duck comes on the television I have to change the channel or walk away if someone else is watching it.
This probably all sounds weird but I just wanted to get it out of my system.

I completely understand this about ducks! I love them!!! (I thought I was the only one who felt like this! I have been vegetarian for about a year now but I never ate duck as growing up I always feed them and even now I still feed them and can spend ages watching them (especially ducklings!).

Whispered

It's the ducks fault I'm veggie too well they started me off. I feel the same about people eating meat and often have to stop myself being preachy. It's rude to comment on what other people are eating, but if I'm asked "oh does the smell of bacon not make you want it?" I'll usually let them know that to me it's not "bacon" but a bit of pig. It's human nature to not think about what you are eating. Once you stop eating meat, you're a lot more aware of what it is, bcause you allow yourself to be. Well thats what I found anyway.


My OH was always a big meat eater but made the decision to eat veggie at home most of the time rather than cook 2 dinners. He has more energy and is generally feeling better in himself. Now he is in no way veggie, but eats a lot less meat then he used to and is really seeing benefits.

Tar, I have to say, you have the patience of a saint.

cozmik

helena.ryan wrote: »

Once you stop eating meat, you're a lot more aware of what it is, bcause you allow yourself to be. Well thats what I found anyway.

Well most meat eaters I know myself included are under no illusions about what we are eating and are perfectly comfortable about it.

seamus

cozmik wrote: »

Well most meat eaters I know myself included are under no illusions about what we are eating and are perfectly comfortable about it.

Most meat eaters I know think little about what they eat past, "It's a cow". They don't think about where it comes from or how it gets there.

Most people I know, if you were to present them with a nail gun/bolt gun/shotgun/weapon of choice, point them at a cow and say, "There's our dinner, make sure you stick it right between the eyes and shoot straight so it dies instantly. And hurry up so I can chop it up and stick it on the barbecue", you'll find them very quickly asking if there's any salad they can have instead.

The entire process of getting our meat is seen as very distasteful and most of society simply ignores that it goes on and is happy that someone else is doing it for them and they don't have to ask any questions. If a child remarked to his parents "I'd like to work in a slaughterhouse and kill pigs all day", he'd be very quickly booked into the child psychologist.
Why would this be, if people are happy and fully aware of where their meat comes from? Why isn't working in a slaughterhouse as noble as being a butcher?

cozmik

That's what I said, see?

seamus wrote: »

The entire process of getting our meat is seen as very distasteful and most of society simply ignores that it goes on and is perfectly comfortable that someone else is doing it for them and they don't have to ask any questions.

Look, It's human nature to want to avoid doing the dirty work ourselves that's not to say that people aren't fully aware of what's going on.

As far as meat eaters are concerned those animals are there for our consumption and that's all there is to it.

seamus

Actually what you said was that meat eaters are "under no illusions about what we are eating". I beg to differ, unless you meant nothing more than "meat eaters are aware they're eating meat", which is irrelevant to the discussion.

People are not only happy to let other people do the dirty jobs, they're even happier when they don't know exactly what these dirty jobs are or what they entail. I've actually heard a surprisingly large number of people remark to me, "If I thought about what happened to this cow to get it onto my plate, I'd probably never eat meat again."
Which is precisely the happy little la-la land that most meat eaters (in western countries anyway) live in.

cozmik

seamus wrote: »

"If I thought about what happened to this cow to get it onto my plate, I'd probably never eat meat again."

In other words they know what goes on is pretty gruesome but they choose not to think about it because they would rather keep eating meat.

Slaphead07

that's pretty much the same words.

cozmik

And yet seamus maintains meat eaters are not aware of the gruesome side.

Actually what you said was that meat eaters are "under no illusions about what we are eating". I beg to differ....

...they're even happier when they don't know exactly what these dirty jobs are or what they entail.

seamus

cozmik wrote: »

In other words they know what goes on is pretty gruesome but they choose not to think about it because they would rather keep eating meat.

Yes, they know it's pretty gruesome, but don't actually know what happens - that's the "illusion" we're referring to here.

cozmik

seamus wrote: »

Yes, they know it's pretty gruesome, but don't actually know what happens -

here

Abattoir workers humanely kill animals, and prepare carcasses for sale and transportation to butchers and other buyers. There are three main areas of work.

These are:
the unloading and moving of livestock
the slaughtering of animals
the preparation of carcasses and handling of by-products, such as hide and intestines.


Cattle, sheep, pigs and chickens are the animals most frequently slaughtered.

Animals are unloaded from lorries into lairages (pre-slaughter pens). From the lairage, animals are moved to the stunning pen. Here, the abattoir worker stuns the animal, using a pistol, gas or electric current. This stops the animal from feeling pain. After stunning, the animal is killed immediately.

Blood is drained from the animal and the hide, skin or hair is removed. Internal organs and intestines are taken out. The carcass is then split and placed in a chiller.

Chickens are hung on an assembly line for slaughter, and their heads removed.

Finally, abattoir workers wash down the pens, tools and equipment.

http://www.careers-scotland.org.uk/CareerInformation/Occupations/Manufacturing/FoodandDrink/AbattoirWorker.asp

I'm still perfectly comfortable about eating meat and you know why? because as I said those animals are there for our consumption and that's all there is to it.

Slaphead07

cozmik wrote: »

those animals are there for our consumption and that's all there is to it.

You're wrong. Again. Prossibly always.

boodlesdoodles

I have a question to the vegetarians/vegans who've replied to this thread. Does your vegetarianism affect all parts of your life? For example, do leather shoes, bags, or any other byproducts of the meat industry have a place in your homes? I eat meat, that's my choice, much the same as a vegetarian has their reasons for their choice. Thanks.

Slaphead07

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

I have a question to the vegetarians/vegans who've replied to this thread. Does your vegetarianism affect all parts of your life? For example, do leather shoes, bags, or any other byproducts of the meat industry have a place in your homes? I eat meat, that's my choice, much the same as a vegetarian has their reasons for their choice. Thanks.

there isn't a rule book. Everybody answers to their own conscience (which is why we're vegetarian!). I wear leather shoes & belts because I can't find any real alternatives. I don't wear leather jackets or use leather bags. I avoid geletine or other 'sneaky' meat products but Guinness or red wine are fine.
In short it doesn't "affect all parts of your life" but there might be aspects of it affected.

cozmik

Slaphead07 wrote: »

You're wrong. Again. Prossibly always.

Wow, Great rebuttal, Slaphead07, did you construct that counter-arguement all by yourself? LOL.

Silent Partner

cozmik wrote: »

here


as I said those animals are there for our consumption and that's all there is to it.

Hmmm. I disagree with you here. Those animals are not simply there for our consumption. We consume them because through hundreds and thousands of years we have developed the tools and resources to hunt or farm and kill these animals.
A cow was hardly born a cow so it could end up on someones plate. That is human design, not the cows destiny.
As with all things human, we have free will and I choose not to eat meat. You choose to eat it. Fair beans to you. I don't agree with your choice and you don't agree with mine. Who's right and wrong is irrelevant. We can have argue out each others points of view for another fifteen pages or so and probably both still be convinced of our original standing. You're right for you and I, as a vegetarian, am right for me.

Not a lot else to be said surely?

Min

When I see a lion, a Tiger, my cat or the fox that killed my ducks etc or even an owl I feel sick and believe they should all be shot, they eat meat that isn't even cooked, if only they thought about what they were doing, its so unnatural...............oh its natural I see, time for dinner and some meat and it will be cooked.......

Silent Partner

Min wrote: »

When I see a lion, a Tiger, my cat or the fox that killed my ducks etc or even an owl I feel sick and believe they should all be shot, they eat meat that isn't even cooked, if only they thought about what they were doing, its so unnatural...............oh its natural I see, time for dinner and some meat and it will be cooked.......

Animals hunt and kill other animals as it's innate. They were born with certain instincts and appendages such as razor sharp incisor teeth and claws. If you'll notice, the tiger or lion you speak of do so with no tools or external impliments.

However humans kill animals purely because we developed tools like spears and later cleavers etc. and we also developed farming techniques to rear animals for slaughter. This isn't natural instinct. You don't go out in a field, tackle a cow and rip out his flesh with your teeth when you fancy a steak. In fact, I'd love to see you try this. You go to the supermarket and pick one up from the shelf. This is not natural hunting ability. It's shopping.

cozmik

Silent Partner wrote: »

They were born with certain instincts

Man was also born with certain instincts

Silent Partner wrote: »

However humans kill animals purely because we developed tools like spears and later cleavers etc. and we also developed farming techniques to rear animals for slaughter. This isn't natural instinct.

We kill animals because we developed tools? lol eh no actually we kill animals because we wanted to eat them. What thought do you think entered Mans mind the first time he saw a cow?

I'll bet you anything it was "I wonder what it tastes like?" which I'm sure you'll agree is a very natural instinct for a MAN!

Min

Silent Partner wrote: »

Animals hunt and kill other animals as it's innate. They were born with certain instincts and appendages such as razor sharp incisor teeth and claws. If you'll notice, the tiger or lion you speak of do so with no tools or external impliments.

However humans kill animals purely because we developed tools like spears and later cleavers etc. and we also developed farming techniques to rear animals for slaughter. This isn't natural instinct. You don't go out in a field, tackle a cow and rip out his flesh with your teeth when you fancy a steak. In fact, I'd love to see you try this. You go to the supermarket and pick one up from the shelf. This is not natural hunting ability. It's shopping.

I can get a broiler (chicken) and kill it with my hands by wringing its neck. I could kill a calf if I wanted meat without tools but one wouldn't do that as it would be cruel when the calf could be reared and slaughtered for more meat in a humane way.

Humans are the most intelligent species on the planet, we are clever enough to be able to hunt/rare animals for food, it is this kind of thinking that has led to human populations growing to the extent that they have.

boodlesdoodles

Slaphead07 wrote: »

there isn't a rule book. Everybody answers to their own conscience (which is why we're vegetarian!). I wear leather shoes & belts because I can't find any real alternatives. I don't wear leather jackets or use leather bags. I avoid geletine or other 'sneaky' meat products but Guinness or red wine are fine.
In short it doesn't "affect all parts of your life" but there might be aspects of it affected.

But surely if you adapt a lifestyle that promotes a no-meat or cruelty to animals way of life that should translate across all aspects of your life? What gives a vegetarian/vegan the right to judge me or any one else whilst they're wearing leather shoes and keeping their pants up with a leather belt? Seems slightly two faced IMHO.

Slaphead07

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

But surely if you adapt a lifestyle that promotes a no-meat or cruelty to animals way of life that should translate across all aspects of your life?

First of all I haven't adopted a lifestyle. I simply don't eat meat. Secondly I'm not interested in promoting anything.

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

What gives a vegetarian/vegan the right to judge me or any one else whilst they're wearing leather shoes and keeping their pants up with a leather belt?

Who's judging you? Nobody has the right to do that and nobody here has said they have. Regardless of what they're wearing.

the OP said

However when I see people eating meat I see them eating a dead animal rather than food.

. That's just an honest admission not a judgement on anybody.

boodlesdoodles

Slaphead07 you're the only person to reply to the question I asked and I didn't mean to single you out as the spokesperson for all things veggie!! Just find it an interesting aspect to vegetarianism. I worked with a girl who was according to herself, a militant veggie, but bought leather shoes etc and would crib at the rest of us in the office for having some meat!! I just always found it incongruous she would berate us whilst heading off to BT's to buy some Gucci!!!

I'm seriously not trying to be controversial, I respect your choices, just curious. Hope you understand what I'm getting at

Slaphead07

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

I worked with a girl who was according to herself, a militant veggie, but bought leather shoes etc and would crib at the rest of us in the office for having some meat!! I just always found it incongruous she would berate us whilst heading off to BT's to buy some Gucci!!!

She sounds like a bit of a horrible person. As I said much earlier we all answer to our own conscience, hers doesn't include shoes (nor does mine) but she seems to feel she can judge others. Vegetarianism does not equal judgemental.

BurnsCarpenter

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

Slaphead07 you're the only person to reply to the question I asked and I didn't mean to single you out as the spokesperson for all things veggie!! Just find it an interesting aspect to vegetarianism. I worked with a girl who was according to herself, a militant veggie, but bought leather shoes etc and would crib at the rest of us in the office for having some meat!! I just always found it incongruous she would berate us whilst heading off to BT's to buy some Gucci!!!

I'm seriously not trying to be controversial, I respect your choices, just curious. Hope you understand what I'm getting at

She sounds like an idiot though. To describe yourself as a 'militant veggie' and to berate others, while wearing leather, is pretty stupid.

However, I don't see anything wrong with arguing a particular viewpoint while not adhering to it yourself. Before becoming a veggie I would have argued with friends that it was the right choice to make. Was I being a hypocrite? Possibly, but I don't remember deciding to be a perfect human being. It doesn't invalidate the argument.

I also find that most veggies don't really berate meat eaters - they just defend themselves when challenged.

Slaphead07

BurnsCarpenter wrote: »

- they just defend themselves when challenged.

which is a few times a week. "How dare you think for yourself!"