What happens if a TV license inspector calls, and you don't have a TV?

cuatrillo

There's already a thread on the TV license; this is a question about the enforcement procedures which I thought appropriate for a separate thread. Hope that's ok.

The background is:

* I don't have a TV. I had one up to 2005, when I cancelled my cable and got rid of the TV itself.

* An inspector called at my door tonight, I told him I didn't have a TV, he asked if he could come in to check, I said no, he wrote down "Refused Inspection" on his clipboard and went away.

My questions are:

* What's likely to happen next? Is there a published procedure that I can consult? Anyone have anecdotes to share?

* What am I within my rights to do? If they turn up again, what paperwork can I ask to see? If I let them in, can I ask the inspector to give me written confirmation that they've done the inspection and found nothing, so I have something to refer to if the matter arises again?

Things that may or may not be relevant:

* I didn't want to make some grand moral stand, it's just that I was put on the spot and the inspector was asking to do something that I didn't think was appropriate - a stranger knocking on my door without notice, asking me my name (which I hesitated to give but then figured that they have it on their database anyway), and then asking to come in and poke around my flat, and at that point it went beyond reasonable boundaries of security, privacy, and presumption of innocence and good faith. I'm the one who was being imposed on, yet now I'm presumably on their list as a potential evader or troublemaker.

* I should say that the inspector himself was perfectly civil. When I said I didn't want to let him in, he accepted that and didn't attempt to pursue the matter. When I made a remark along the lines of I thought you guys had detector vans so you didn't have to go into people's houses, he ignored both the content of the remark and its sarcastic tone, which was the correct thing to do.

* I say again, I don't have a TV. If I had a TV, I'd have a TV license which I'd show the inspector and he'd go away, but because I don't have a TV, I have to let a government official inspect my flat to ensure that I don't have the means or opportunity to watch the Late Late Show. This is stupid on so many levels that I don't even know what to get angry at first. I might just not make a thing about it, wave the guy through the next time and let him inspect what he wants to inspect.

97i9y3941

i think you still have to cough up if you have a radio,licence covers the radio too

niceirishfella

Fred83 wrote: »

i think you still have to cough up if you have a radio,licence covers the radio too

you sure?


OP, if you don't have a TV, there's not a lot he can do.
You said no to his request to inspect but that means shag all..............like you could have been naked or something - what right does he have to not believe you?

herobear

afaik legislation is coming in(if it hasnt already) that a tv license is required for any device in which it is possible to broadcast video and/or radio.....this includes Computers, laptops and portable media devices such as iphones etc...

Wishbone Ash

Fred83 wrote: »

i think you still have to cough up if you have a radio,licence covers the radio too

There is no requirement to have a licence for a standard broadcast radio.

cuatrillo

niceirishfella wrote: »

you sure?
OP, if you don't have a TV, there's not a lot he can do.
You said no to his request to inspect but that means shag all..............like you could have been naked or something - what right does he have to not believe you?

That's what I think too. In a decent and just world there should be no burden on me to prove to him that because I don't have a TV, I don't need a license. But I'm wondering what the situation is in Irish communications legislation.

When the definition of a TV is expanded to cover Youtube videos and MP3 downloads, I'll have to pay the license fee. Whether that's a good thing or not is another subject, but one aspect of it that's relevant to this thread is that it'll probably end up being something like a "media tax", it'll be based on an understanding that we all get our media one way or another, and that it's insensitive, irrelevant, and anachronistic to send officials to check whether peoples' sitting rooms contain a large box with a CRT in it.

brettmirl

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

There is no requirement to have a licence for a standard broadcast radio.

Correct! Am pretty sure they changed the radio requirement when they changed the TV license into the one license, as opposed to having a colour and black & white one.

bk

Fred83 wrote: »

i think you still have to cough up if you have a radio,licence covers the radio too

My friend was in this exact situation, no TV, but had a radio.

They claimed he needed a TV license to cover a radio. He pointed out that he didn't, that according to the legislation, he only needed a radio license and that he would be happy to get one from them.

As they no longer have a radio only license, he never heard from them again.

As for the question on the inspector, you are perfectly entitled to do what you did. They can only enter your home without your permission if they come back with a Garda and a search warrant. They may do that, but if you don't have a TV, then you have nothing to worry about.

The Cush

The radio licence was abolished on 1st Sept 1972 by S.I. No. 210/1972 — Broadcasting (Receiving Licences) (Amendment) Regulations, 1972 by amending the previous regulation S.I. No. 279/1961 — Broadcasting (Receiving Licences) Regulations, 1961 as follows

3. In these Regulations—
...
"receiving licence" means a licence granted by the Minister under section 5 of the act to a person to keep and have possession of, in any specified place in the State or in any specified ship or in any specified aircraft, an apparatus for wireless telegraphy for receiving only television broadcasts.

A Radio Licence was first introduced by The Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1904, in Ireland this operated until the Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1926 was enacted.
In the UK a Broadcasting Receiving Licence was introduced in November 1922 to cover existing BBC radio broadcasts, as well as the BBC's 405-line television service between November 1936 and September 1939.

herobear wrote: »

afaik legislation is coming in(if it hasnt already) that a tv license is required for any device in which it is possible to broadcast video and/or radio.....this includes Computers, laptops and portable media devices such as iphones etc...

In a short article in Tuesday's Irish Times, a television licence will not be required for internet and mobile tv services or laptops with a tv card under the new Broadcasting Act according to Minister Ryan. A standard desktop PC with a tv card will still require a licence.

Internet TV will not need licence

INTERNET AND mobile television services will not require a television licence once the new Broadcasting Bill is enacted, Minister for Communications Eamon Ryan said yesterday.

The Broadcasting Bill 2008 is currently before the Dáil but Mr Ryan said mobile devices and internet services such as YouTube would be exempted from the requirement for a licence. Mobile phones, PCs with a broadband connection and laptops with TV cards will be covered by the exemption.

This article appears in the print edition of the Irish Times

Also see Government says no TV licence needed for RTE online

niceirishfella

yeah, with a TV card!
Like how are they going to identify if your laptop has a TV card or not..........stupid dumbass legislators.

The Cush

niceirishfella wrote: »

yeah, with a TV card!
Like how are they going to identify if your laptop has a TV card or not..........stupid dumbass legislators.

A laptop with or without a tv card will be exempt from the licence fee.

peanuthead

cuatrillo wrote: »

it'll probably end up being something like a "media tax".

In that case I'll be wanting my newspapers for free

cuatrillo

So my understanding so far is that I'm within my rights not to let the inspector in without a warrant, and that neither a computer nor a radio falls under the definition of "TV", and that goes both for the existing licensing legislation and for the legislation that's currently in the works. I don't have a TV, so I don't have to worry about being charged with evasion (unless they're in the habit of planting evidence ), though a Guard on my doorstep with a search warrant would be a fairly stressful intrusion in itself.

Not to make this a bigger issue than it is, I haven't heard anything since I sent the inspector away. I have no idea if they're in the habit of following up on these things, and whether for example they just poke their head in the door to look for a standard TV or turn the place upside down for anything that might possibly receive or play broadcasts; that's why I was asking the questions here.

Mike 1972

If the police do show up with a search warrant I would make an official complaint to the Ombudsman/Complaints board.

An inspector called at my door tonight, I told him I didn't have a TV, he asked if he could come in to check, I said no, he wrote down "Refused Inspection" on his clipboard and went away.

I dont have a dog licence or a gun licence but Ive never had any inspectors around demanding to know why letalone wanting to "come in to check" presumably I am regarded as innocent until proven guilty. Why should those without TV licences be treated any differently ?

Our man in Havana

The inspector would need to convince a district court judge that you have a tv and you are simply obstructing him. Unless he saw a tv thru a window or an open door he would have no basis to seek a warrant.

cuatrillo

Mike 1972 wrote: »

I
I dont have a dog licence or a gun licence but Ive never had any inspectors around demanding to know why letalone wanting to "come in to check" presumably I am regarded as innocent until proven guilty. Why should those without TV licences be treated any differently ?

Good analogy, makes perfect sense to me. The people who draw up and enforce this legislation have notions about the private space of law abiding citizens that are wrong on a lot of levels.

The inspector would need to convince a district court judge that you have a tv and you are simply obstructing him. Unless he saw a tv thru a window or an open door he would have no basis to seek a warrant.

Thanks Bond, that's great information to have. It's good to know that they have to go through that channel and that they have to make an argument based on the details of a specific case rather than having a standard warrant rubberstamped. Hopefully that closes the issue for me and I won't hear any more about it, since the inspector wouldn't have been able to see a TV or any kind of screen flicker from where he was.

brettmirl

Do Sky/NTL/Chorus supply their customer lists to whoever enforces the TV License laws?

Our man in Havana

No.

bk

Bond-007 wrote: »

No.

Actually I think they might.

I believe that at least in the UK, when you buy TV equipment, they take your details at the store and pass it along to the TV licensing crowd.

Our man in Havana

In the UK that is 100% correct. The licence gestapo are informed if you buy a TV or sub to pay tv.

Here they tried to get chorus/ntl to do likewise but due to legal issues it never happened.

niceirishfella

Data Protection was it?

Our man in Havana

I believe so.

Mike 1972

One doesnt need to own a TV set to be a cable customer since some cable companies provide broadband, telephone and FM/digital radio servces as well as TV.

Even an aerial or satellite dish on your house doesnt make you a TV owner since (VHF) aerials can be for FM radio. Satellite dishes can be for broadband/satellite radio or could simply have been put there by landlords/previous owners/no-longer-TV-owning current owners.

I believe that at least in the UK, when you buy TV equipment, they take your details at the store and pass it along to the TV licensing crowd.

They do.

But they dont ask for proof

So one can always pay cash and give a false address (preferably in the Republic of Ireland so when they ask for your postcode and you tell them theres no such thing and have fun watching as the salespersons brain explodes )

Alternatively you can give the postcode W12 7RJ (BBC Television centre, London) or BS98 1TL (TV Licensing, Bristol)

Actually there used to be a provision in Irish law for this sort of thing too but the TV dealers ignored the law en-masse until it was quietly repealed

More Music

So what about this scenario?

No TV and no TV aerial in the house.

Satellite (no RTE on it) with scart output going into a video card on a desktop PC.

The desktop PC and 36" monitor don't have tuner cards of any description.

Just out of curiosty?

BTW, there must be a major drive by An Post going on at the minute. They called to me and 2 mates not far from me.

Our man in Havana

Licence required in that scenario. It don't matter that you can't get RTE.

watty

Even if you can only get Iranian TV and watch nothing else you need a licence.

The Satellite Dish + PC sat tuner OR (sat box + Videoin on PC) DO qualify under existing law as a TV reception Apparatus.

Fighting Irish

They seem to be fairly relaxed about licenses, i was at a house today that has a TV and hasn't got a license. About 6 months ago they said they got a letter telling them they didn't have a TV license and today the inspector called and said they have to get one by such and such a date or get fined.

Is this the norm?

watty

You may get a warning. If so get a licence at once.

If you ignore the warning they DO take you to court.

snaps

Mike 1972 wrote: »

One doesnt need to own a TV set to be a cable customer since some cable companies provide broadband, telephone and FM/digital radio servces as well as TV.

Even an aerial or satellite dish on your house doesnt make you a TV owner since (VHF) aerials can be for FM radio. Satellite dishes can be for broadband/satellite radio or could simply have been put there by landlords/previous owners/no-longer-TV-owning current owners.

Yes if you have any piece of equipment that can be used to receive tv broadcasts either satellite or aerial you need a licence. My neighbours have a uhf aerial on their chimney, they are hungarian and they dont have a tv or a tv tuner in the house, but they are now being taking to court as they refussed to get a licence for that aerial, even though they never watch tv. Ive offered to take the aerial down, but its a rented house and the landlord doesnt want it taken down. I find it all a bit rediculous, as it seems now that the licence really is a tax and every house should pay it if they watch tv or not.

TheZenWithin

herobear wrote: »

afaik legislation is coming in(if it hasnt already) that a tv license is required for any device in which it is possible to broadcast video and/or radio.....this includes Computers, laptops and portable media devices such as iphones etc...

I hate the government......They'll have me broke on computers alone.....

Fuzzy Clam

snaps wrote: »

My neighbours have a uhf aerial on their chimney, they are hungarian and they dont have a tv or a tv tuner in the house, but they are now being taking to court as they refussed to get a licence for that aerial, even though they never watch tv. Ive offered to take the aerial down, but its a rented house and the landlord doesnt want it taken down. I find it all a bit rediculous, as it seems now that the licence really is a tax and every house should pay it if they watch tv or not.

Did your neighbours refuse to allow the inspecter into the house.

They DO NOT need a licence for the aerial, even if they are Hungarian.

Thoushaltnot

I got rid of my TV early last year but got my reminder in the post (well, more of a threat than a reminder but anyhows).
Head like a sieve as to the exact details but I did fill out a form stating that I have no TV, and sent it back into them.

There's been no contact from them since...but then again my doorbell ain't working.:)

Call up the TV licence peeps and ask for this magical piece of paper.

niceirishfella

snaps wrote: »

Yes if you have any piece of equipment that can be used to receive tv broadcasts either satellite or aerial you need a licence. My neighbours have a uhf aerial on their chimney, they are hungarian and they dont have a tv or a tv tuner in the house, but they are now being taking to court as they refussed to get a licence for that aerial, even though they never watch tv. Ive offered to take the aerial down, but its a rented house and the landlord doesnt want it taken down. I find it all a bit rediculous, as it seems now that the licence really is a tax and every house should pay it if they watch tv or not.

I agree with Fuzzy earlier- you can anything you like on the roof. The hungarians should tell the inspector to "fcuk off" in hungarian.:eek:

snaps

no they asked them in and they showed them they had no tv but they stated they had to have a licence for the aerial as it was capable of tv reception.

Our man in Havana

A judge would not convict in that case.

niceirishfella

Shure I have a wardrobe full of coat hangers capable of recieving TV signals,but I don't need a licence for them all...........what a load of old sh1te.

Mike 1972

How would it work on a semi detatched house then ? A single aerial on the chimney could be for either (or both) houses. And good point RE: the coat hangers

watty

My aerials on roof


The TV aerial is only about 7ft off ground near back door THe larger aerial there is 4.5m long on a motor drive. You can get TV reception from the 25MHz to 1300MHz "discone" on chimney.


Obviously the intent of the act is a Broadcast Receiver & display. Not an aerial. People on Cable TV or Fibre IPTV with live broadcast (UPC, Magnet, Smart, Homevision) or just a dish need a TV licence.

Bright Smile

Hello all,

Just wondering if anyone knows whether a tv licence is needed if a house is unoccupied?

Cheers
BS

Dumb

Bright Smile wrote: »

Hello all,

Just wondering if anyone knows whether a tv licence is needed if a house is unoccupied?

Cheers
BS

If it has a tv yes. Even if it isn't used once there is a tv in the premises a license is required. I hope that helps.

cfcj

if there is a TV there and working then probably, just take the TV out if its unoccupied then they can't do ya. Though if nobody is there they can't check

Mike 1972

I would have thought a TV in an unoccupied house could be a bit of a grey area TBH. I mean who would actually to be deemed in "possession" of said TV ?

bk

bk wrote: »

Actually I think they might.

I believe that at least in the UK, when you buy TV equipment, they take your details at the store and pass it along to the TV licensing crowd.

My brother signed up to Sky shortly after moving into a new house. Less than a week later a TV licence inspector showed up. Luckily nobody was there because although he had a licence he hadn't transferred it to the new house yet.

I just found it very coincidental that an inspector showed up so soon after he got Sky. I also seem to remember my parents' place getting spot checked after they got Sky installed.

bk

Karsini wrote: »

My brother signed up to Sky shortly after moving into a new house. Less than a week later a TV licence inspector showed up. Luckily nobody was there because although he had a licence he hadn't transferred it to the new house yet.

That wouldn't have been a problem then, they won't hassle you if you've recently moved in and had it at a previous address, they'll just remind you to have it transfered over.

Karsini wrote: »

I just found it very coincidental that an inspector showed up so soon after he got Sky. I also seem to remember my parents' place getting spot checked after they got Sky installed.

Could just be a coincidence, is it a new housing estate, the license inspectors specifically target and call to every new home and apartment in new developments, just to remind people to get a license. In fairness they don't tend to be heavy handed about it.

PogMoThoin

TV licence inspector called 2-3 days after installing Sky 2.5 yrs ago when we moved in here. We were the first people to occupy a house on the estate and installed Sky the following week. Dish was on the gable at the side, not in view and the estate didn't look like it was lived in yet.

Sam Russell

There is a difference between the UK and Ireland. In the UK, you must be using the set without a license, hence the detector vans. In Ireland, if you have the equipment to receive the broadcast, then you must have a TV. Also, a portable TV that runs from batteries does not need a license in the UK, but it does here.

It is the receiving of broadcast that is the defining element here. A computer with broadband does not have the capability of receiving rf modulations, hence no license required. With a TV card, it does, and so needs the license.

The inspector may have the right to inspect, I am not familliar with the particular act, but many people, such as Customs or a bailiff, can enter your home.

If you refuse, they will need a Garda to enforce that right. It all depends on the act under which the power is given.

Our man in Havana

There are no bailiffs in Ireland.

TV licence inspectors need a warrant to enter.

watty

Only Customs and officials in pursuit of illegal Wireless Telegraphy Transmission can enter without a warrant. Everyone else needs a Warrant+ garda

Fuzzy Clam

PogMoThoin wrote: »

TV licence inspector called 2-3 days after installing Sky 2.5 yrs ago when we moved in here. We were the first people to occupy a house on the estate and installed Sky the following week. Dish was on the gable at the side, not in view and the estate didn't look like it was lived in yet.

I don't think its Sky supplying the details, or at least not just Sky.
I don't have Sky but within weeks of me moving into my new (to me) house, I received a letter reminding me to buy a licence.
They must get details of people who move into a new address.

niceirishfella

An Posts systems spot "new Address's and then as they are charged with the job of enforcing/collecting the Tv licence, they send out the whinging letters to pay for the talentless gimps in RTE.
Sky do not hand over info, by law they can't.

Fuzzy Clam

watty wrote: »

Only Customs and officials in pursuit of illegal Wireless Telegraphy Transmission can enter without a warrant. Everyone else needs a Warrant+ garda

Can understand Customs.
By "officials", do you mean Comreg?

Any instances I know of Comreg (and the ODTR + Post office before them) entering a premises to seize, they always have had a warrant (and Gardai to hold their hands :rolleyes:).