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The Threat of Atheism

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    #242
    pol o gallachoi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14 ✭pol o gallachoi


    As we have seen over the years, and in the current reports, the moral authority which christians and the christian hierarchy possessed has been eroded. The moral high ground has been taken away and yet we're still listening to these men dealing out their laws which support the old ideology which can no longer serve society.
    Too late lads, we can read the bible for ourselves, we can choose for ourselves and we can live according to a moral code which applies to the present and not some utopian paradise of an after life where only club members gain entry.


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    #243
    legologic
    Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭legologic


    smidgy wrote: »
    Hi Guys,

    I am a Christian and feel threatened by an atheistic society. The reason for this is that I see atheism as destructive force since it enforces the belief that there is no eternal responsibility for ones actions. Since an atheist is only binded by his own moral code there is too much responsibility placed on the individual to create a code which is actually moral. I personally wouldn’t trust any individual from coming up with their own moral code because more often than not they will design it to suit themselves. If this ideology is to permeate society as a whole and people feel that they are only answerable to the law (and not the 'truth' or God) then it creates a very dangerous society.


    One example of this can be seen in the way Christians and atheists approach abortion. My personal experience is that a person that does not believe in God (Jesus) will immediately assume that an unborn child is not alive. They will act on this and proceed with an abortion. Without any research into abortion they will derive their moral code to suit their circumstances. A Christian on the other hand would be compelled to assume that the unborn child is alive. I don’t want to make this discussion about abortion but just mentioned it to illustrate the weakness of a human being in establishing his own moral code. His moral code will become for him more of a subjective rather than objective creation. I believe that a society based on such subjective moral codes will become a chaotic mess and will eventually lead to its destruction. Do athiests see this danger?



    Thanks,

    S.

    Hi Guys,

    I am an atheistic and feel threatened by a Christian society. The reason for this is that I see christianity as destructive force since it enforces the belief that there is an eternal responsibility for ones actions. Since a christian is bound by somebody elses moral code there is too much responsibility placed on the individual to reconcile their actions with what their told to do. I personally wouldn’t trust any 2000 year old book/Religious organisation from coming up with my moral code because more often than not they will design it to suit themselves. If this ideology is to permeate society as a whole and people feel that they are only answerable to God (and not the 'truth' or the law) then it creates a very dangerous society.


    One example of this can be seen in the way Christians and atheists approach abortion. My personal experience is that a person that does believe in God (Jesus) will immediately assume that an unborn child is alive. They will act on this and proceed with bombing an abortion clinic (apollogies for the extremism). Without any research into abortion they will blindly follow someone elses moral code. An atheist on the other hand would be compelled to research whether or not that the unborn child is alive. I don’t want to make this discussion about abortion but just mentioned it to illustrate the weakness of a 2000 year old belief system in establishing a modern moral code. His/her moral code will become more of a system of proofs and facts rather than blind faith. I believe that a society based on such logical moral codes will become a less chaotic and will eventually lead to furtherment of the human race. Do Catholics see this danger?



    Thanks,

    L.


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    #244
    smidgy
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭smidgy


    Originally I considered not including any reference to abortion in this thread but it has served its purpose in highlighting the difference between the established christian moral code and a personal self created code.

    As I stated before and as has been illustrated many times in this thread we have one person who does everything in their power to preserve an entity which will form a human being and we have the other individual who uses their own 'moral' code to destroy that very same entity. The evidence speaks for itself, I rest my case.


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    #245
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    smidgy wrote: »
    Originally I considered not including any reference to abortion in this thread but it has served its purpose in highlighting the difference between the established christian moral code and a personal self created code.

    As I stated before and as has been illustrated many times in this thread we have one person who does everything in their power to preserve an entity which will form a human being and we have the other individual who uses their own 'moral' code to destroy that very same entity. The evidence speaks for itself, I rest my case.

    I love how anti-abortionists always trot abortion out as if it were a clear cut case of evil murder. I can clearly imagine the smug look they have when they post it. "I bet those wicked atheists feel silly now!" he chuckled to himself.

    It's a choice between the rights of a sentient member of society and the rights of an unthinking proto human. I think you religious people are awful for trying to force a woman to let something grow inside her body just because you've a naive belief that the tiny lump of flesh in her womb has a magic eternal soul.

    A perfect example of an irrational belief system causing people to make messed up decisions.


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    #246
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,970 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    There have been better threads than this for discussing abortion - just search by thread title. All I will say on the matter is in the form of questions: what happens naturally, before we even get to "morals"? How much inherent value does a foetus have, to humans and other animals? How many "potential people" never make it past the first trimester, regardless of what we do? I'm not saying it has to be that way, but if we want things to be different, we need to come up with more evidence to support our hypotheses than religious vitalism. :rolleyes:

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



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    #247
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    smidgy wrote: »
    Originally I considered not including any reference to abortion in this thread but it has served its purpose in highlighting the difference between the established christian moral code and a personal self created code.

    As I stated before and as has been illustrated many times in this thread we have one person who does everything in their power to preserve an entity which will form a human being and we have the other individual who uses their own 'moral' code to destroy that very same entity. The evidence speaks for itself, I rest my case.

    Yep cause Atheists get abortions for fun.
    No other reasons to have what so ever.

    And look at all the atheists out there telling all women to have at least one abortion, cause it's fun.

    And all that atheist opposition to adoption to boot.

    Edit: So what about the Christians who are pro-choice? Are they as bad as the atheists who make up their moral code?


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    #248
    mewso
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,889 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    smidgy wrote: »
    Originally I considered not including any reference to abortion in this thread but it has served its purpose in highlighting the difference between the established christian moral code and a personal self created code.

    Please point to the posts where it has served it's purpose in highlighting any differences. Otherwise I'm going to ignore this as trolling point 1.
    smidgy wrote: »
    As I stated before and as has been illustrated many times in this thread we have one person who does everything in their power to preserve an entity which will form a human being and we have the other individual who uses their own 'moral' code to destroy that very same entity. The evidence speaks for itself, I rest my case.

    Person? Individual? There is a law in your book. It reads "Thou Shalt not Kill". Regardless of abortion, the death penalty or wars people who share your beliefs have shown themselves more willing to ignore this law than others. How many of your fellow believers in the USA are against the death penalty?

    Simply and obviously trolling Point 2.


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    #249
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    smidgy wrote: »
    Originally I considered not including any reference to abortion in this thread but it has served its purpose in highlighting the difference between the established christian moral code and a personal self created code.

    As I stated before and as has been illustrated many times in this thread we have one person who does everything in their power to preserve an entity which will form a human being and we have the other individual who uses their own 'moral' code to destroy that very same entity. The evidence speaks for itself, I rest my case.

    Like the guy who shot and killed an abortion doctor in the US?

    Thou shalt not kill, though.

    Oh, how I love the hypocrisy of Christianity.


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    #250
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    smidgy wrote: »
    we have one person who does everything in their power to preserve an entity which will form a human being

    Who is this one person? Does he/she post on boards?


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    #251
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    Like the guy who shot and killed an abortion doctor in the US?

    Thou shalt not kill, though.

    Oh, how I love the hypocrisy of Christianity.

    You foolish non-believer. It's perfectly acceptable to kill abortionists. It hath been quoted in Hypocratices:13:13


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    #252
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    I think it should make smidgy pause for thought that this man was killed while serving as an usher in his Christian church.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8076253.stm

    But yea abortion is for atheists who make up their own morals.


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    #253
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Love how some people think that being anti-abortion is exclusively for religious people. As non-believer myself I'm against abortion, however I'm not going to try and push my views on people who aren't interested, and some realism is needed the next time a referendum comes up about it.

    I'm not scared of this atheist society that we're meant to be on the verge of, but who knows, people turn to religion in tough times, maybe there'll be a resurgence soon.

    Holy ****, Zeitgeist suddenly makes sense.


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    #254
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Legitimate divine punishment does not make God a bad person, it makes Him just.

    What is illegitmate divine punishment?


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    #255
    smidgy
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭smidgy


    King Mob - Yeah its a tragedy but there are many tragedies at work there .. the first is the killing of all those innocent children, the second is the killing of the abortionist himself the third is that a country stands by and lets a man kill innocent children and another is that the deceased man does not have the rest of his life to seek forgiveness, repent and save his soul.


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    #256
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    smidgy wrote: »
    King Mob - Yeah its a tragedy but there are many tragedies at work there .. the first is the killing of all those innocent children, the second is the killing of the abortionist himself the third is that a country stands by and lets a man kill innocent children and another is that the deceased man does not have the rest of his life to seek forgiveness, repent and save his soul.

    The biggest tragedy of all being an all-powerful, all-knowing and perfect God just standing by and doing absolutely nothing to stop any of this.

    It's a pity those apples were so damn tasty.

    :rolleyes:


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    #257
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    smidgy wrote: »
    the first is the killing of all those innocent children

    Please :rolleyes:

    How many children has God killed or ordered to be killed? How many children have the righteous followers of God killed or been ordered to kill.

    Christian "morality" rings hollow. You don't believe in the right of children to life, you simply believe that God tells you not to kill without cause (ie him telling you to) and you have to do what God says. To a Christian a child has the right to life and happiness right up to the point where God orders you to rape and kill her.

    If God told Christians to go out and start slaughtering every first born child in Dublin you would all go out with your knifes happily slitting throats, probably singing some Christian hymn as you do.


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    #258
    kiffer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    Wicknight wrote: »
    If God told Christians to go out and start slaughtering every first born child in Dublin you would all go out with your knifes happily slitting throats, probably singing some Christian hymn as you do.

    In fairness now... I think many of them wouldn't. They'd say something like that's not the sort of order their God would give.


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    #259
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    kiffer wrote: »
    In fairness now... I think many of them wouldn't. They'd say something like that's not the sort of order their God would give.

    Right. God has never been known to dish out orders like that.


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    #260
    kiffer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    Right. God has never been known to dish out orders like that.

    Yup. Never... They were only suggestions, and were morally valid at the time... Those children could have grown up to be worse than Hitler... We have to say worse than hitler because otherwise why would he kill them but not Baby Hitler...

    Technically Godwin's Law does not apply to this post.


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    #261
    pH
    Registered Users Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    kiffer wrote: »
    In fairness now... I think many of them wouldn't. They'd say something like that's not the sort of order their God would give.

    In fairness now, Rwandan Christians had little problem with it.


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    #262
    kiffer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    pH wrote: »
    In fairness now, Rwandan Christians had little problem with it.

    That wasn't an official God, Jesus and Holy Spirit sanctioned event such as the slaying of the first born of Egypt or the recent war in Iraq.


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    #263
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    smidgy wrote: »
    As long as there are stones people will throw them at each other, knives they will stab each other and guns they will kill each other.
    Exactly.

    Christianity won't change any of that.


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    #264
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,200 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    kiffer wrote: »
    That wasn't an official God, Jesus and Holy Spirit sanctioned event such as the slaying of the first born of Egypt or the recent war in Iraq.

    or inquisition,or crusades......


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    #265
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    smidgy wrote: »
    King Mob - Yeah its a tragedy but there are many tragedies at work there .. the first is the killing of all those innocent children, the second is the killing of the abortionist himself the third is that a country stands by and lets a man kill innocent children and another is that the deceased man does not have the rest of his life to seek forgiveness, repent and save his soul.
    Yea you missed the point.

    You say that Atheists make up their own morals thus they kill babies.

    However this doctor (or abortionist as you so delicately put it) was a Christian.

    So do all Christians make up the own morals as much as atheists?


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    #266
    legologic
    Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭legologic


    smidgy wrote: »
    the first is the killing of all those innocent children,

    Yeah, reminds me of the story of Moses, when the angel of death killed a child of every family in egypt that didnt smear the blood of a lamb on their door. that was perfectly acceptable I assume.
    smidgy wrote: »
    the second is the killing of the abortionist himself

    Ah but it was done in the name of god surely that makes it ok? Sure he's up there now with entire tribes of people and millions of others killed in the name of god, so he's in good company right?

    It's interesting to note that while 16% of americans are non-religious atheist or agnostic only 0.2% of prison inmates in america are. Suppose those inferior morals cant be that bad.


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    #267
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Wicknight wrote: »
    If God told Christians to go out and start slaughtering every first born child in Dublin you would all go out with your knifes happily slitting throats, probably singing some Christian hymn as you do.

    "All things bright and beautiful, all creatures great and small..."


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    #268
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    legologic wrote: »
    It's interesting to note that while 16% of americans are non-religious atheist or agnostic only 0.2% of prison inmates in america are. Suppose those inferior morals cant be that bad.

    Yeah, but they (the 99.8%) aren't real christians/muslims, etc.








    Or some other laughable excuse.


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    #269
    fitz0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,753 ✭✭✭fitz0


    Zillah wrote: »
    "All things bright and beautiful, all creatures great and small..."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooaGhYFHIzg


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    #270
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    legologic wrote: »
    One example of this can be seen in the way Christians and atheists approach abortion. My personal experience is that a person that does believe in God (Jesus) will immediately assume that an unborn child is alive. They will act on this and proceed with bombing an abortion clinic (apollogies for the extremism). Without any research into abortion they will blindly follow someone elses moral code. An atheist on the other hand would be compelled to research whether or not that the unborn child is alive.

    I have seen no evidence that people who favour liberal abortion laws have done any more research, on average, than those who don't. I've seen even less evidence that your average person who is against legal abortion bomb abortion clinics. I think you're an anti-Christian bigot.
    Zillah wrote: »
    ... just because you've a naive belief that the tiny lump of flesh in her womb has a magic eternal soul.

    People who are against abortion rely no more upon eternal soul arguments than people who are against murder. Is a foetus a life or not? You don't actually know, do you?


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    #271
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Húrin wrote: »
    People who are against abortion rely no more upon eternal soul arguments than people who are against murder. Is a foetus a life or not? You don't actually know, do you?

    I imagine he does, though you may reject his definition of "a life"

    And I don't know what Christians you have been discussing abortion with but the soul enters at conception argument is very common and used all over the place.


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