The Threat of Atheism

smidgy

Hi Guys,

I am a Christian and feel threatened by an atheistic society. The reason for this is that I see atheism as destructive force since it enforces the belief that there is no eternal responsibility for ones actions. Since an atheist is only binded by his own moral code there is too much responsibility placed on the individual to create a code which is actually moral. I personally wouldn’t trust any individual from coming up with their own moral code because more often than not they will design it to suit themselves. If this ideology is to permeate society as a whole and people feel that they are only answerable to the law (and not the 'truth' or God) then it creates a very dangerous society.


One example of this can be seen in the way Christians and atheists approach abortion. My personal experience is that a person that does not believe in God (Jesus) will immediately assume that an unborn child is not alive. They will act on this and proceed with an abortion. Without any research into abortion they will derive their moral code to suit their circumstances. A Christian on the other hand would be compelled to assume that the unborn child is alive. I don’t want to make this discussion about abortion but just mentioned it to illustrate the weakness of a human being in establishing his own moral code. His moral code will become for him more of a subjective rather than objective creation. I believe that a society based on such subjective moral codes will become a chaotic mess and will eventually lead to its destruction. Do athiests see this danger?



Thanks,

S.

Dinner

smidgy wrote: »

Since an atheist is only binded by his own moral code there is too much responsibility placed on the individual to create a code which is actually moral. I personally wouldn’t trust any individual from coming up with their own moral code because more often than not they will design it to suit themselves.

So what your saying there, is that you're afraid that people will have to actually think and use their own judgement rather than blindly being told what to do and what to believe.

I would welcome a secular society that promotes this kind of critical thinking. Much more dangerous is a religious society where people
a) follow the teachings of a very old book.
b) follow the orders of a limited number of men with power

Besides, there are many religions that people will happliy kill each other for, but there would be none of that in a secular society. Giving one less reason for people to kill each other.

Galvasean

smidgy wrote: »

Do athiests see this danger?

No.

Delirium

smidgy wrote: »

Hi Guys,

I am a Christian and feel threatened by an atheistic society. The reason for this is that I see atheism as destructive force since it enforces the belief that there is no eternal responsibility for ones actions.

What about laws, prison etc???

Since an atheist is only binded by his own moral code there is too much responsibility placed on the individual to create a code which is actually moral. I personally wouldn’t trust any individual from coming up with their own moral code because more often than not they will design it to suit themselves. If this ideology is to permeate society as a whole and people feel that they are only answerable to the law (and not the 'truth' or God) then it creates a very dangerous society.

you could make that claim about people that follow 'the truth of god' and not the law.

One example of this can be seen in the way Christians and atheists approach abortion. My personal experience is that a person that does not believe in God (Jesus) will immediately assume that an unborn child is not alive. They will act on this and proceed with an abortion. Without any research into abortion they will derive their moral code to suit their circumstances. A Christian on the other hand would be compelled to assume that the unborn child is alive. I don’t want to make this discussion about abortion but just mentioned it to illustrate the weakness of a human being in establishing his own moral code. His moral code will become for him more of a subjective rather than objective creation. I believe that a society based on such subjective moral codes will become a chaotic mess and will eventually lead to its destruction. Do athiests see this danger?

Thanks,

S.

I wouldn't agree with the idea you have put forward. People make bad decisions, commit crime etc. regardless of whether they are religious or not.

Flamed Diving

smidgy wrote: »

Hi Guys,

I am a Christian and feel threatened by an atheistic society. The reason for this is that I see atheism as destructive force since it enforces the belief that there is no eternal responsibility for ones actions. Since an atheist is only binded by his own moral code there is too much responsibility placed on the individual to create a code which is actually moral. I personally wouldn’t trust any individual from coming up with their own moral code because more often than not they will design it to suit themselves. If this ideology is to permeate society as a whole and people feel that they are only answerable to the law (and not the 'truth' or God) then it creates a very dangerous society.


One example of this can be seen in the way Christians and atheists approach abortion. My personal experience is that a person that does not believe in God (Jesus) will immediately assume that an unborn child is not alive. They will act on this and proceed with an abortion. Without any research into abortion they will derive their moral code to suit their circumstances. A Christian on the other hand would be compelled to assume that the unborn child is alive. I don’t want to make this discussion about abortion but just mentioned it to illustrate the weakness of a human being in establishing his own moral code. His moral code will become for him more of a subjective rather than objective creation. I believe that a society based on such subjective moral codes will become a chaotic mess and will eventually lead to its destruction. Do athiests see this danger?



Thanks,

S.

Myopic.

TheInquisitor

Thats just ridiculous. Im not going to suddenly go around killing people just because i don't believe in god. Imagine this situation . Is it better to have to stand with your own crimes/ mistakes or be able to walk into church into confession and get all those crimes absolved" in the name of god". People use " the god factor " as an easy way out of bad things they've done. I think atheists will be proved to have better morals those any person that believes in god.

herya

smidgy wrote: »

Since an atheist is only binded by his own moral code

False. There are also small issues of so called decency, human rights, humanism. All secular.

I personally wouldn’t trust any individual from coming up with their own moral code because more often than not they will design it to suit themselves.

You don't have much faith in people do you? I'm scared of people like you, who won't be decent with no whip in sight.

If this ideology is to permeate society as a whole and people feel that they are only answerable to the law (and not the 'truth' or God) then it creates a very dangerous society.

Why do you assume that atheists are not answerable to truth? It's offensive. Truth has nothing to do with faith and quite often is the opposite.

bluecell99

Some of the most savage and destructive behaviour inflicted on humans was carried out by zealots working on gods orders as determined by whatever holy men were there at the time.Holy men who are convinced that they are working for a never seen entity .

I would be much happier if children were instilled with a moral sense from an early age without the religious window dressing and the supposition that morality and formal religion are inextricably linked.

As a matter of interest, as an atheist I have a great problem with abortion and would beg a woman not to have one if I was asked my opinion.At the same time however I would not condemn her from a religious perspective in that she will face eternal damnation.I dont believe any of us have the authority to force people to toe the line based on 2,000 year old fairy stories.

Designed for power and control and nothing else.

Gambler

I have huge problems with the whole premise of your post which I am sure will be very well responded to by others but I did want to quote this bit:

smidgy wrote: »

The reason for this is that I see atheism as destructive force since it enforces the belief that there is no eternal responsibility for ones actions. Since an atheist is only binded by his own moral code there is too much responsibility placed on the individual to create a code which is actually moral.

and respond with this link

Kold

I fear a religious society a bit more than that to be honest. I really would take the opinions of someone that has sat down and tried to make sense of something, all evidence considered rather than someone referring to a 2,000 year old book filled with nonsensical claims for their guiding light. I don't want to be patronising but when you say 'truth' and 'god', I hear 'percieved truth' and 'nonsense'.

mewso

Without God perhaps:-

- young women might not have suffered appallingly in 'Magdalen Laundries'
- young boys might not have gotten beaten to a pulp by "Christian" Brothers
- people of all ages wouldn't be killing each other over a piece of ground
- altar boys might have just been...well altar boys
- thousands might still be working in two tall buildings in New York
- approx. 100,000 civilians in Iraq might be alive
- George W. Bush might have been laughed at when he claimed to believe in God and hence might never have been president of the USA.
- less South African's would be dying of AIDS
- we might be looking forward to Back to the Future Episode 10 starring a fit and healthy Michael J. Fox.

Who knows?

cavedave

smidgy
Since an atheist is only binded by his own moral code there is too much responsibility placed on the individual to create a code which is actually moral. I personally wouldn’t trust any individual from coming up with their own moral code because more often than not they will design it to suit themselves.

You seem to have a bad view of peoples inherent morality. Could you present evidence that atheists carry out more crimes on average then Christians?

A Christian on the other hand would be compelled to assume that the unborn child is alive.

Do you have evidence of this? Catholics have historically thought differently. Evidence here. If the catholic churches views on abortion only stem from the 1880's then no such compulsion could have existed.

coffee_cake

smidgy wrote: »

Hi Guys,

I am a Christian and feel threatened by an atheistic society. The reason for this is that I see atheism as destructive force since it enforces the belief that there is no eternal responsibility for ones actions. Since an atheist is only binded by his own moral code there is too much responsibility placed on the individual to create a code which is actually moral. I personally wouldn’t trust any individual from coming up with their own moral code because more often than not they will design it to suit themselves. If this ideology is to permeate society as a whole and people feel that they are only answerable to the law (and not the 'truth' or God) then it creates a very dangerous society.

I love the part where [some] christians try to reassure us they're moral by pointing out that they see nothing wrong whatsoever with murder, rape, etc and would be quite happily indulging in these acts were it not for their holy book. Yes, wolfsbane, that's what he wrote.

And this is supposed to be a good thing.
/backs away slowly
I'm also worried when people try to argue that the threat of hell is what stops them doing these things, and that they'd see nothing wrong with it otherwise. Seriously, if that's what it takes, I'd be more worried...

One example of this can be seen in the way Christians and atheists approach abortion.

Some christians acknowledge there's nothing in the bible against it (provided an induced miscarriage is followed by a fine being paid to the woman) and there are quite a lot of pro-life atheists.

My personal experience is that a person that does not believe in God (Jesus) will immediately assume that an unborn child is not alive.

If anybody whatsoever religious creed aside believes that living cells are not living, they need to be sent back to biology class.
No philosophy or moral discussion necessary.

They will act on this and proceed with an abortion. Without any research into abortion they will derive their moral code to suit their circumstances. A Christian on the other hand would be compelled to assume that the unborn child is alive.

See above on the subject of "alive".

I quite like Acquinas' view on the soul and the unborn, but I don't know how popular he is these days.

I don’t want to make this discussion about abortion but just mentioned it to illustrate the weakness of a human being in establishing his own moral code.

Still waiting for the illustration.

His moral code will become for him more of a subjective rather than objective creation. I believe that a society based on such subjective moral codes will become a chaotic mess and will eventually lead to its destruction. Do athiests see this danger?

Well, the world hasn't ended yet. So apparently you're wrong.


Is this post a joke or have you genuinely convinced yourself of all this?

Dades

smidgy wrote: »

If this ideology is to permeate society as a whole and people feel that they are only answerable to the law (and not the 'truth' or God) then it creates a very dangerous society.

Just look at those crazy secular Swedes and their godless ways... Saunas? Naked? Well I never!

ScumLord

The worlds been turning secular only within the last 100 years. Before that human society has in a dark age, people meant nothing and the churches abused their power and made peoples lives a living hell.

I'm always astonished how easy it is for religious folks to overlook the part of their religion that tells them to turn the other cheek and love thy neighbor and instead use their religion as an excuse to hate other people.

dvpower

smidgy wrote: »

I see atheism as destructive force since it enforces the belief that there is no eternal responsibility for ones actions.

It doesn't enforce any belief.

smidgy wrote: »

Since an atheist is only binded by his own moral code there is too much responsibility placed on the individual to create a code which is actually moral.

No true, but doesn't this suggest that Christians are only binded by (their interpretation) of God's code? This is also not true. Go and ask Christians if they would like the 10 commandments to be enforced in civil law. Most wouldn't.

smidgy wrote: »

My personal experience is that a person that does not believe in God (Jesus) will immediately assume that an unborn child is not alive. They will act on this and proceed with an abortion.

We get really really bad press.

smidgy wrote: »

Do athiests see this danger?

No. Now I'm off to eat my children.

Borneo Fnctn

smidgy wrote: »

I personally wouldn’t trust any individual from coming up with their own moral code because more often than not they will design it to suit themselves.

The moral codes offered by religions were made to suit the people that made them.


Assume just for a moment that there was no god. Imagine you knew it for a fact and could prove it. I know that sounds ridiculous but here's the question; would you make it known that there was no god or would you keep it to yourself out of fear that people would lose control of themselves?

Galvasean

dvpower wrote: »

No. Now I'm off to eat my children.

Cronos, is that you?

bnt

What was the point of putting that original post in this forum? Unless you thought this was a forum where Christians came to moan about atheists, as opposed to one frequented by actual atheists? We have thought about this stuff, you know, we're not hanging around waiting for someone to tell us we're bad and/or wrong ... :cool:

Orion

smidgy wrote: »

Hi Guys,

I am a Christian and feel threatened by an atheistic society.

I'm atheist I am oppressed in a christian society.

smidgy wrote: »

One example of this can be seen in the way Christians and atheists approach abortion. My personal experience is that a person that does not believe in God (Jesus) will immediately assume that an unborn child is not alive. They will act on this and proceed with an abortion. Without any research into abortion they will derive their moral code to suit their circumstances. A Christian on the other hand would be compelled to assume that the unborn child is alive. I don’t want to make this discussion about abortion but just mentioned it to illustrate the weakness of a human being in establishing his own moral code. His moral code will become for him more of a subjective rather than objective creation. I believe that a society based on such subjective moral codes will become a chaotic mess and will eventually lead to its destruction. Do athiests see this danger

You don't want to make this about abortion but spend the greater percentage of your post about it. Why do you assume only atheists have abortions? I think if you do your research ... or even do the maths ... there is a better chance that more professed christians have abortions in(outside of) Ireland than atheists.

And then this alleged weakness inherent in humans in establishing moral codes? Are you serious? I mean really ... ARE YOU SERIOUS! Let me refute that one down the bible route: Abraham; Lot; Dinah; Ruth; etc.
If you don't know what I mean by that then you need to learn more about your own religion. According to your own holy book then rape, human sacrifice, incest and prostitution are perfectly acceptable behaviours.

The bone of the matter is that humans do decide the moral code. Some people use religion as their basis - some don't. At the end of the day the christian commandments #4-#7 are the basis for most societies regardless of their religious background or societal definitions.

Just don't presume that people who don't have the same religious belief as you are child killers and perverts and then we might get along. But for as long as you make these assumptions then I will treat you with the disdain you richly deserve.

Dave!

I agree, atheists are no gooders !

ConmanTheKiller

All I remember from relgion class in school was the golden rule, now since then I have lost all faith in "god" or any supernatural entity for that matter, but I still take heed of the rule, moreso then most Christians.

Secondly how can someone fear a secular socicity when theocracies have caused the most suffering, deaths and the most suppression of free speech and thought. At this moment I remember the quote "Evil men commit evil deeds, but it takes religion for good men to commit evil deeds".

By the way if i was in the situation where my gf had an unexpected pregnacy I would never suggest an abortion, but I would not look down on another person who would.

eoin5

Well I think thats enough for the op to reply to

Orion

eoin5 wrote: »

Well I think thats enough for the op to reply to

If he bothers. Look at his post history - he pops in every now and again to troll. Admittedly he's educated - or at least has a good dictionary - but history is against him.

Overblood

smidgy wrote: »

Hi Guys,

Hi

smidgy wrote: »

I don’t want to make this discussion about abortion but just mentioned it to illustrate the weakness of a human being in establishing his own moral code. His moral code will become for him more of a subjective rather than objective creation. I believe that a society based on such subjective moral codes will become a chaotic mess and will eventually lead to its destruction.

Since religious moral codes are pick n' mixed from the bible, does that not mean that religious people are choosing their own morals also?

You surely don't follow this law:

Leviticus 20:27 (King James Version)

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Or this one, which says that you can't keep cows of a different breed in the same field, or sow seeds of a different species in the same field. If you want to take it metaphorically, it becomes a racist law:

Leviticus 19:19 (King James Version)


Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed

If you ignore the above, and adhere to ones like "thou shalt not kill", you're choosing your own morals, aren't you? You're picking the ones that you know are right, that feel right. If you can discern what's good and bad in the bible, you obviously have some moral code of your own, independent of religion.

Anyway I'd rather live without all that confusion and just be a good person because I am actually a good person.

ConmanTheKiller

Lads its a trap, hes drawn us out into the open, DUCK AND COVER!!!!:D:D

Sam Vimes

If everyone followed the christian moral code* the world would actually be a good place because it is quite a good way to live your life but unfortunately that doesn't happen. People who believe in religion do just as many evil things as people who don't, if not more. Your nightmare of people making up their own morals is already happening
. If it wasn't there would be no christians in jail

The way I see it, the only result of removing the religious aspect of ethics would be the excuse "god told me to do it" wouldn't fly anymore

*only the christian one and not the one from the old testament when god was a childish, jealous, sadistic, genocidal, xenophobic nut job as Overblood pointed out

philologos

Overblood wrote: »

Since religious moral codes are pick n' mixed from the bible, does that not mean that religious people are choosing their own morals also?

Pure assumption.

Overblood wrote: »

You surely don't follow this law:

I don't engage in sorcery no. I don't stone people to death as a matter of New Testament teaching which has fulfilled the death penalty of the Old. Jesus died for my sins, I was baptised into his death (Romans 6:3), Jesus has been ressurrected. I am a new creation in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17). If I have been forgiven my sins, I am also to forgive the sins of others.

Yes formerly the penalty of sin was death (Romans 6, Romans 1), however due to the role of Jesus Christ there is an option to accept His death as atonement for yours so that you will not be punished come the Day of Judgement.

So yes, the Jewish Torah was written before this happened so it isn't likely to reflect what the New Testament has fulfilled concerning it. It isn't picking and choosing it's merely accepting that Jesus Christ superseded elements of the Torah.

Christians have explained this to you time and time again on boards.

Overblood wrote: »

Or this one, which says that you can't keep cows of a different breed in the same field, or sow seeds of a different species in the same field. If you want to take it metaphorically, it becomes a racist law:

Ceremonial law, not moral. Although if I had a farm I don't think it wouldn't be possible to do that. Anyhow, as I don't own a farm, therefore that law isn't really applicable to me anyway.

Overblood wrote: »

If you ignore the above, and adhere to ones like "thou shalt not kill", you're choosing your own morals, aren't you? You're picking the ones that you know are right, that feel right. If you can discern what's good and bad in the bible, you obviously have some moral code of your own, independent of religion.

No, I amn't. I'm following the New Testament understanding of the Torah which is written clearly.

Overblood wrote: »

Anyway I'd rather live without all that confusion and just be a good person because I am actually a good person.

If you believe you are good it doesn't necessarily follow that you are good.

Macros42 wrote: »

I'm atheist I am oppressed in a christian society.

Hogwash, there is as much freedom for you as there is for me.

Macros42 wrote: »

You don't want to make this about abortion but spend the greater percentage of your post about it. Why do you assume only atheists have abortions? I think if you do your research ... or even do the maths ... there is a better chance that more professed christians have abortions in(outside of) Ireland than atheists.

You're probably right on this one. Although Christianity from it's source text seems to discourage this.

Macros42 wrote: »

And then this alleged weakness inherent in humans in establishing moral codes? Are you serious? I mean really ... ARE YOU SERIOUS! Let me refute that one down the bible route: Abraham; Lot; Dinah; Ruth; etc.
If you don't know what I mean by that then you need to learn more about your own religion. According to your own holy book then rape, human sacrifice, incest and prostitution are perfectly acceptable behaviours.

The Bible depicts acts of sinfulness so that humans can learn from them. It's not because they are acceptable. Infact it makes it rather clear that they aren't.

Macros42 wrote: »

The bone of the matter is that humans do decide the moral code. Some people use religion as their basis - some don't. At the end of the day the christian commandments #4-#7 are the basis for most societies regardless of their religious background or societal definitions.

I'm not sure if we do.

Macros42 wrote: »

Just don't presume that people who don't have the same religious belief as you are child killers and perverts and then we might get along. But for as long as you make these assumptions then I will treat you with the disdain you richly deserve.

You and others have made plenty of assumptions about Christianity and Judaism on this thread.

ScumLord wrote: »

The worlds been turning secular only within the last 100 years. Before that human society has in a dark age, people meant nothing and the churches abused their power and made peoples lives a living hell.

I'm always astonished how easy it is for religious folks to overlook the part of their religion that tells them to turn the other cheek and love thy neighbor and instead use their religion as an excuse to hate other people.

I agree. Simple as.

Have to say the OP did have some serious balls to post what he did in here though . I do get concerned about excessive liberalism, but I think one can safely conclude excessive liberalism != atheism in all cases. Sometimes they interrelate and at other times they don't.

Orion

Jakkass wrote: »

Hogwash, there is as much freedom for you as there is for me.

I was being sarcastic. I don't actually think I'm oppressed

Jakkass wrote: »

The Bible depicts acts of sinfulness so that humans can learn from them. It's not because they are acceptable. Infact it makes it rather clear that they aren't.

I know that the OT is allegory but I remember being taught in school that it was fact. And as pointed out above the god in the OT was a malicious child who probably pulled the legs off spiders too. So when you've children taught that half of the book as fact is it any wonder they grow up to question the morality of it?

Jakkass wrote: »

You and others have made plenty of assumptions about Christianity and Judaism on this thread.

I've made no assumptions about Christianity. I was merely refuting the OP that atheism is a destructive force and using examples to back it up. I don't attack religions - I do defend my own (non)belief system.

Jakkass wrote: »

I do get concerned about excessive liberalism, but I think one can safely conclude excessive liberalism != atheism in all cases. Sometimes they interrelate and at other times they don't.

Atheists can be extremely conservative also. Just as there are ultra-conservative christians and liberal ones. I don't think there's a link between conservatism/liberalism and religion at its root level - despite people using religion to defend/reinforce their views.

the_syco

smidgy wrote: »

My personal experience is that a person that does not believe in God

In my experience, those who believe in God run into crowded places, and blow themselves up, amongst other wacky things.

My tarring brush is extra big today :P

philologos

Macros42 wrote: »

I was being sarcastic. I don't actually think I'm oppressed

Ah right

Macros42 wrote: »

I know that the OT is allegory but I remember being taught in school that it was fact. And as pointed out above the god in the OT was a malicious child who probably pulled the legs off spiders too. So when you've children taught that half of the book as fact is it any wonder they grow up to question the morality of it?

I don't consider the Old Testament to be allegory in most cases. As for the God of the Old Testament he waited entire generations to give people a chance to stop their sin before He punished them. I don't think that it is cruel that people can be punished for their wrongdoing in any sense. Just as much as I don't think that it is cruel that hell exists. God had a different relationship with the Jews than He has with the Christians, the Bible (even in the Old Testament) makes this crystal clear.

Macros42 wrote: »

I've made no assumptions about Christianity. I was merely refuting the OP that atheism is a destructive force and using examples to back it up. I don't attack religions - I do defend my own (non)belief system.

You and Overblood have both made inaccurate assumptions about the Jewish and the Christian belief system throughout this thread.

Macros42 wrote: »

Atheists can be extremely conservative also. Just as there are ultra-conservative christians and liberal ones. I don't think there's a link between conservatism/liberalism and religion at its root level - despite people using religion to defend/reinforce their views.

I'm sure there can be. I do that people who follow Abrahamic religions are more likely to be socially conservative than those who aren't. Note socially conservative because I don't think that being fiscially conservative has anything to do with religion.

the_syco wrote: »

In my experience, those who believe in God run into crowded places, and blow themselves up, amongst other wacky things.

In my experience atheists enjoy killing millions of Jews, Muslims and Christians and burning down synagogues, churches, and mosques and other horrific things

the_syco wrote: »

My tarring brush is extra big today

Mine can be too