Strength for Gaelic Football!!

saram

Alright so for those of us who partake in Gaelic Football, who would like to improve our strength, I was wondering what do people think are the best strengthening exercises..

I'm doing some training at the moment..but most of it involves various types of running and skills. I'd like to get to the gym once or twice a week to work on my strength.

What do people here think would be the best strength exercises for Gaelic Footballers? I was reading an article by Mike McGurn recently and he said he was shocked to see some gaelic footballers still doing the bench press. On that bombshell.... what strength exercises would be best suited for the Gaelic Football player? He never actually stated in the article what the best exercises are..I was left wondering.

I'm sure leg squats would be in the list..but what else?
Would be great if I could gather about 7-10 of the best exercises and work from there..

Any ideas??

Cheers..

Antisocialiser

im no expert but the following help me: squats, deadlift, shoulder press, bench press, chin ups, glute ham raises, dips... im still strugglin to find a happy medium between strength exercises and being fit and recovered for football training i.e. intervals, drills etc

PWO shake is in the post (waxy maize starch) is on the way and also starting taking isotonic drinks in the gym with me so hopefully that should help!

:pac:

cardio,shoot me

id say squats would be very good for helping speed on the field, although i wouldnt be a refutable source

podge57

I dont lift for football purposes, but i do play and have got a lot of benefits from:

squats- i can kick much further and much more accurately, i think squats probably helped me develop a lot more co-ordination

ab/core work- side bends, hyperextensions, leg raises, pulldowns - a strong midsection will help a lot

things like deadlifts, military presses and cleans are great too

theres nothing wrong with benching, as long as its not all you do, which is a problem the majority of players seem to have, but its one of the best upper body exercises

just make sure you dont develop any imbalances - ie not training hamstrings, or back

brianon

GAA ? You need power.

Power Cleans and Power Snatch. Snatch would be great for helping to jump and field high balls.

Brian?

I wonder if the best strength training for GAA players is any different than strength training for anyone else. Surely you're going to want to be stronger all over with a well balanced physique. The only issue, in my opinion, is whether the recovery time needed from your strength training is going to effect your game.

That said; squats, deadlifts, pull ups, bench, shoulder press, rows, cleans. Keep it simple.

If you're only going to do 2 weight sessions a week, do all of the above in each session, alternating deadlifts and squats every session to give your back a break.

I am wide open to correction here.

Hanley

brianon wrote: »

GAA ? You need power.

Power Cleans and Power Snatch. Snatch would be great for helping to jump and field high balls.

All the power cleans and snatches in the world won't make you any more powerful unless you're already strong. Of course if they OP is strong they're a great choice... but we don't know.

In my (limited) experience, core (static and rotational), leg and hip strength are going to be all important.

Conditioned

Its probably not the best time of the season to be hoping to get benefits from weightlifting, but I'd be in favour of the Starting Strength routine.

I really believe its ideal for a beginner as the strength you gain will carry over to other exercises when you change your training round. The downside to it is that you may find your working your quads and hamstrings too often in-season which eats into your recovery.

I agree with Hanleys point that you must be strong at the Olympic Lifts to really gain from them, but you have to start somewhere and I believe that they are great warm up exercises until you can lift decent weight. The Snatch is great for flexibility and shoulder pre-hab. Having said that if your 30 years of age you will probably never get any benefits from using the olympic Lifts as they take so long to master, other than maybe the snatch as a pre-hab/warm-up.

I'd imagine Mike McGurr would be thinking that all training should be done on your feet just like the sport itself and thats the reason that he has a dislike for the bench press for GAA.

Hanley

Conditioned wrote: »

I agree with Hanleys point that you must be strong at the Olympic Lifts to really gain from them, but you have to start somewhere and I believe that they are great warm up exercises until you can lift decent weight. The Snatch is great for flexibility and shoulder pre-hab. Having said that if your 30 years of age you will probably never get any benefits from using the olympic Lifts as they take so long to master, other than maybe the snatch as a pre-hab/warm-up.

Excellent points there

I'd imagine Mike McGurr would be thinking that all training should be done on your feet just like the sport itself and thats the reason that he has a dislike for the bench press for GAA.

I think this is a BS argument personally... I know it's not yours!!

The weight training is GPP, it's not "sports specific". The specificity is what happens when you're training on the field. It's how you convert the new found strength and speed into better sporting performance.

I bet a lot of GAA coaches like push ups and sit ups... they're not in a "GAA" position either!!

You just cannot disregard the positive things that come from being a big bencher - stronger shoulders, chest and arms. All definitely good for on the field performance!

Patto

Don't know who Mike McGurn is but I don't understand his arguement. Your upper body pushing strength is very important in GAA and should be balanced with your upper body pulling strength. Core strength is important as is hip and quad strength and balance. Hip mobility is also very important. This is true for all field sports.

This one was hashed out a few weeks ago here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055546234

slemons

Wasnt McGurn the guy who coached Ireland rugby team during the world cup?
And also claimed that he knew POC was going to have a blinder in the last Hcup final when he DB snatched 60kg?

Nothing wrong with bench press, but there are better things like overhead press.

Brian?

slemons wrote: »

Nothing wrong with bench press, but there are better things like overhead press.

Better for shoulder strength, yes. Better for chest strength, no.

Squat, deadlift, bench, OH press, pullups and rows are all the "best" excecise for different body parts.

weightlifter

brianon wrote: »

GAA ? You need power.

Power Cleans and Power Snatch. Snatch would be great for helping to jump and field high balls.

In an ideal world, sure. But have you seen GAA players in the gym? I do not mean to be disrespectful, but the basic level of flexibility and coordination are not good. And asking 95% of GAA players to power clean and power snatch is ridiculous and akin to asking a child to run before they can walk.

brianon

weightlifter wrote: »

In an ideal world, sure. But have you seen GAA players in the gym? I do not mean to be disrespectful, but the basic level of flexibility and coordination are not good. And asking 95% of GAA players to power clean and power snatch is ridiculous and akin to asking a child to run before they can walk.

Fair enough. But should we just prescribe bicep curls cause thats what they do best ?

In fairness. Teaching a power clean or power snatch...for sport...not for competetive oly lifting is not THAT hard. Especially given the amount of time some players put into training. Obviously mid-season is not the best time to be teaching these skills.

Of course you need a strength base to build a power base so the scenarios where p/clean & p/snatch may actually be incorporated are possibly not all that widespread.

slemons

weightlifter wrote: »

In an ideal world, sure. But have you seen GAA players in the gym? I do not mean to be disrespectful, but the basic level of flexibility and coordination are not good. And asking 95% of GAA players to power clean and power snatch is ridiculous and akin to asking a child to run before they can walk.

lol, weightlifters have more coordination and flexibility than hurlers?

brianon

slemons wrote: »

lol, weightlifters have more coordination and flexibility than hurlers?

Flexibility ? I would say so. Huge flexibility required for full oly lifting (less so for the power varieties).
Coordination ? Not so sure. Hand to eye. I'd give that to the hurler.

AlphaMale 3OO

I have to agree with what people are saying about McGurn's comment about bench pressing - completely ridiculous. For those who aren't familiar with him, he is the outgoing strength coach of the Ospreys rugby team and formerly was with the Ireland rugby team. He is extremely highly regarded and was offered the post of All Blacks strength coach before opting for the Osprey's.

As for his comments, I think it mirrors a trend in S&C coaching of always wanting to reinvent the wheel and stay ahead of the rest by not conforming to the norm. To this end, a coach will come out and suddenly denounce something as being arcane as if we are supposed to have realised it all along and are completely ignorant for acting like a lemming and following the crowd.

The highly respected Mike Boyle (annoyingly) often does this, and as good as he is, I find it hard to agree with his stance on no back squatting or olympic lifting for athletes of 30 years + (or something to that effect). With the way a lot of S&C coaches act, we should be tip-toeing around the gym and replacing all the big exercises with unilateral work in the interests of avoiding inury and if that's the case, lets just avoid the sport altogether in the interests of injury prevention.

I would take McGurn's comments with a pinch of salt and do whatever you feel works best for you - benching included. I've seen him come out with similar off the wall concepts centred around players completely abstaining from training if their vertical jump is lower one day than it was the day before. He also has some of the Ospreys weight training on match day.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying these methods are incorrect and McGurn is a highly respected coach but there are several ways to skin a cat.

eroo

@Alphamale.. do you have any links/proof regarding McGurn's training tactics? The reason I ask is that you have criticised the methods of a highly successful S+C Coach, using examples. I just think you should provide eveidence before going an internet forum and ridiculing his methods.

AlphaMale 3OO

eroo wrote: »

@Alphamale.. do you have any links/proof regarding McGurn's training tactics? The reason I ask is that you have criticised the methods of a highly successful S+C Coach, using examples. I just think you should provide eveidence before going an internet forum and ridiculing his methods.

I disagreed with his stance on bench pressing. That was all. Then I said:

AlphaMale 3OO wrote:

I've seen him come out with similar off the wall concepts centred around players completely abstaining from training if their vertical jump is lower one day than it was the day before. He also has some of the Ospreys weight training on match day.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying these methods are incorrect and McGurn is a highly respected coach but there are several ways to skin a cat.

I'm not criticising him, just playing devil's advocate, I believe there is a place for the bench press and I don't think weight training on match day is productive. By "off the wall" I just mean 'unusual', not necessarily incorrect.

Here is a link anyway. Check the right hand column for the various articles.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/mikemcgurn

I know I also critcised Mike Boyle but on the other hand, to take a leaf out his book, we shouldn't necessarily believe everything we hear just because it came from a reputable source. I think Mike McGurn is excellent as evidenced by the interest from New Zealand but weights on match day wouldn't suit me. Maybe others though.

Roper

I have no link, but there has been a lot of research done in the US regarding the use of weights before matches for CNS preperation and fast twitch fibre recruitment.

OP depending on where you are in the country, we'll have a GAA programme running at Informed Performance when we open in July. Until then you could pm me and I could put you in touch with good S&C coaches.

EDIT baz.oglesby[at]gmail.com will be more likely to be answered if you're interested.

weightlifter

slemons wrote: »

lol, weightlifters have more coordination and flexibility than hurlers?

All round flexibilty? Yes absolutely. Weightlifters are some of the most flexible athletes out there. GAA practicioners are not. End of.

Coordination is obviously completely related to the criterion task. Footballers are more coordinated at jumping and catching a football. Hurlers are more coordinated at striking a sliothar. Weightlifters are more coordinated at the snatch.

But my experience is, that in novel tasks (like squatting, new exercises etc) GAA athletes are largely quite unflexible and, sorry to say it, but uncoordinated.

weightlifter

brianon wrote: »

Fair enough. But should we just prescribe bicep curls cause thats what they do best ?

In fairness. Teaching a power clean or power snatch...for sport...not for competetive oly lifting is not THAT hard. Especially given the amount of time some players put into training. Obviously mid-season is not the best time to be teaching these skills.

Of course you need a strength base to build a power base so the scenarios where p/clean & p/snatch may actually be incorporated are possibly not all that widespread.

You make a very fair point. I maybe disagree and think that it is more difficult than you do... but of course that shouldnt mean that we dont try it. I guess what I am getting at is that I dont think the snatch and the clean should be the first things recommended. I think the basic compound strength movements (presses, squat, lunge, deadlift etc) with some core strength development should be the first things recommended. And even in the case of squats, deadlifts etc, there may often have to be some basic physical competency development first.

I disagree a little bit with hanley on the point that the snatch and/or clean are redundant without a high level of base strength. I know where he is coming from but I think if a person has good physical competency (ie can rack the bar perform a front squat and back squat and so on) that it is worthwhile to begin to learn the lifts even when strength is low. There are still short-term tangible benefits of improving timing and synchronisation of motor unit recruitment, beginning to encourage full triple extention development and other benefits. And of course the long term benefit of drilling technique so that when strength is on the up, they reap the full rewards of weightlifting movements. (of course this means strength is developed in tandem with deads, squats, presses, pulls).

If one decides not to practice the weightlifting movements at all, and instead focuses solely on strengthening compound lifts, it will make it very difficult to learn the movements later and I believe training time will be lost. They can always be learned and practiced for short periods at the begining of training almost as a warm-up before doing squats, presses and other strength work.

slemons

weightlifter wrote: »

GAA practicioners are not. End of.

GAA athletes are largely quite unflexible and, sorry to say it, but uncoordinated.

lol, end of what? End of generalisations?

There seems to be a lot of bad things said in fitness circles about Gaa players. They're weak, unfit, whatever. Its the popular thing to do i spose...

They probably are, but a tougher bunch I've never come across. I always ask, so who here has trained with even a top club level gah team?

saram

Great to see such an interest in the thread..

Here is the article I seen..which just got me thinking..
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2009/0506/1224245992606.html

The actual quote was "I’m not being critical of Gaelic games, they are amateur, but they do have a long way to go. Even in the gym. When I am up in Belfast I still see Gaelic footballers doing bench press and curls. There is no relevance to such work anymore."

I am no where near top level or anything but just wanted to get some feedback on specific exercises for GAA.. I agree with what a lot of people have said..

I think the best exercises would be

Squats, Deadlifts, Military Press, Some Core Exercises (Trunk, Abdominals, Pelvis Area), Some bench press, Leg Extensions, Leg Curls, Lunges and Back Extensions..

Legs should be the biggest priority!


I haven't done too much weights work and its been a while so I can't just go onto Power Cleans and the like..That would be a good bit down the road..but I definitely think they would be really good!!

All the feedback is great and maybe putting the article on here will generate some more debate. Mike McGurn's views have to be respected but as some people mentioned, It doesn't have to be the only way!!

AlphaMale 3OO

Scratch the leg curls and extensions and you have good fundamentals.

slemons

'I am not being critical but....'

That was like my ex-gf saying to me 'I really like you but....'
The end result was still the same

You can have all the equipment you want, and know how to do all the lifts, but what good is it to you if you're too slow to turn? Or havent got the stamina for 75mins? Or hamstring are too weak?

There are so many variables its just ridiculous. Thats where a good coach comes in. Or where a smart athlete can excel. A good eye for weaknesses.
Does anyone else wonder about all these 'programs'. So called cookie cutter's. Such a silly sounding term They're grand but far from ideal

I know of guys who train ridiculously hard. But a lot of it is wasted cause they're a stone under or overweight.

Personally if i had to nail my colors to the mast.

The gym exercises i would go with for hurling.
Power Clean
Overhead press
Chinups
Squats.

Regularly id be breaking that up into single handed or unilateral lifts, so squats would be bulgarians squats and sometimes bulgarian holds.

Of course its all then about how you program that into a training week. Remember you usually have 2training sessions a week and then a game at weekends.

So id usually go with
sprint work monday am followed by legs+power cleans
hurling training tuesday pm
plyo's wednesday am followed by upper body
thursday pm hurling training
friday off or tempo jogging
sat off
sunday game


Its a fúcked up week, and id really like some help from coaches how to structure it better...

The truth is though, that unless you're under 2/3 years training age you really cant increase poundages on lifts during the competitive year. Only in the off season.

Maintenance is the best you can hope for and most often it is enough

You have to remember that once you get to about the 85-100kg power clean mark you're pretty much as strong as anything you'll come across on a sports field. Its all diminishing returns after that. Does spending a year adding 10kg to a PC make much sense? Probably not.

I spose what im trying to get down on paper is that, an exercise or lack of it wont make or break you. (You can still train with bodyweight and excel)

A well rounded program that addresses weaknesses and allows for lot of rest and gets you to the pitch ready to give 100% will 'make' you

weightlifter

slemons wrote: »

lol, end of what? End of generalisations?

There seems to be a lot of bad things said in fitness circles about Gaa players. They're weak, unfit, whatever. Its the popular thing to do i spose...

They probably are, but a tougher bunch I've never come across. I always ask, so who here has trained with even a top club level gah team?

You've pretty much just supported my argument there. You have said its popular to say that they are unfit and weak and then said "they probably are". So I guess I was right when I said "end of".

Seriously though, I know was making generalisations. You have to when you are taking about such a massive athlete base. And you have to make generalisations when advising an anonymous person on an iternet board who has only really given you two pieces of information - I play football and I want to get strong.

But please, I never said that GAA players were weak or unfit. Never. I have worked with mid-level and high-level GAA club teams and I can say that they are some of the most hard-working, honest and fun athletes to work with. By the time the season starts they usually have a fantastic balance between aerobic and anaerobic fitness, a serious appetite for work and a wonderous ability to absorb physical punishment (and come back for more).

I just said, and I stand by it, that footballers and hurlers are generally quite inflexible and are not very well coordinated to learn novel tasks such as those which can be demanded of them in the gym. I believe the reason for this is that in this country most football and hurling player specialize in their sport very very early (10-12) and after that point have little exposure to other sports.

weightlifter

saram wrote: »

The actual quote was "I’m not being critical of Gaelic games, they are amateur, but they do have a long way to go. Even in the gym. When I am up in Belfast I still see Gaelic footballers doing bench press and curls. There is no relevance to such work anymore."

In fairness, his comments could very easily havae been taken out of context. I would imagine his point was against players who only do the curls and the bench press and very little else. I think we would all agree that this would not be a productive way to train. I can guarantee you that 90%+ of the Irish rugby players who were under his supervision with the international squad were certainly still doing bench press and its variants.

slemons

weightlifter wrote: »

You have said its popular to say that they are unfit and weak and then said "they probably are". So I guess I was right when I said "end of".

lol i must work on my sarcasm levels so cause i certainly did not mean that

I know what you mean, but its just wrong. Throw a 'novel' task at the most dextrous person in the world and they will take some time to master it. lol weightlifters themselves use heeled shoes for a reason you know.

Gaa players are quick on the uptake of olympic lifts. Inside a week I've usually seen rock bottom overhead squats. Faster than rugby players from what ive seen. Could this be because of their bench press backround?

I've sat on a lot of sides of the sporting fence and know that to be good at anything you must train incredibly hard to get there. I just wont listen to unfounded, derogatory remarks about any sports player. There are no generalisations worth anything in any walk of life.

You can be 'right' all you want (to be honest after you said that i disregarded everything else you said), but until you pick up a stick and put your money where your mouth is you wont understand.

Roper

"If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail"

If my username was weightlifter, I may suffer from some proximity bias too . I would expect a powerlifter to reccomend squats and a weightlifter to recommend snatches. The reality is that there is no best way, but there are several good ways that have to be adapted to individuals.

Say you have a squad of 30, ranging from 18 and sprightly to 38 and spry, there is simply no way that walking into a team meeting and saying "For pre-season we're all going to learn how to clean" is the right approach. There are too many variables. The problem is that people become dogmatically attached to one training ideal or another and then it becomes institutionalised that X method or Y method is the way to go. You can't hammer a 32 year old square peg into your ideal round hole.... that's almost a single entendre.

I like Oly lifting and I think it has it's place. Mostly I think it's place is in youth teams for the moment as I think there's only injuries to be gained from trying to get most older players to do it. Like or no, traditional resisitance training still produces the vast majority of results, but doesn't have the sex appeal of throwing a barbell over your head.

floggg

Roper wrote: »

"If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail"

If my username was weightlifter, I may suffer from some proximity bias too . I would expect a powerlifter to reccomend squats and a weightlifter to recommend snatches. The reality is that there is no best way, but there are several good ways that have to be adapted to individuals.

Say you have a squad of 30, ranging from 18 and sprightly to 38 and spry, there is simply no way that walking into a team meeting and saying "For pre-season we're all going to learn how to clean" is the right approach. There are too many variables. The problem is that people become dogmatically attached to one training ideal or another and then it becomes institutionalised that X method or Y method is the way to go. You can't hammer a 32 year old square peg into your ideal round hole.... that's almost a single entendre.

I like Oly lifting and I think it has it's place. Mostly I think it's place is in youth teams for the moment as I think there's only injuries to be gained from trying to get most older players to do it. Like or no, traditional resisitance training still produces the vast majority of results, but doesn't have the sex appeal of throwing a barbell over your head.

I think Roper may have hit the nail on the head (every pun intended there!).

brianon

Roper wrote: »

I like Oly lifting and I think it has it's place. Mostly I think it's place is in youth teams for the moment as I think there's only injuries to be gained from trying to get most older players to do it. Like or no, traditional resisitance training still produces the vast majority of results, but doesn't have the sex appeal of throwing a barbell over your head.

Sooooo correct. Ideal sistuations are few and far between which mean coaching new skills (like cleans and snatches) to teams that have huge variances in age (actual age and training age) and physical ability very very duifficult and probably impractical unless the club has rather large resources.

That is why that these movements and more need to be thought to kids (9/10+) so that when it gets time to allow them to perform exercises with load... they are more than ready.

thirtyfoot

Roper wrote: »

Like or no, traditional resisitance training still produces the vast majority of results, but doesn't have the sex appeal of throwing a barbell over your head.

Yes, and getting the technique right for a 6ft 4 lanking streak of p*ss like me can be hard compared to a butty 5ft Bulgarian.

brianon

Tingle wrote: »

Yes, and getting the technique right for a 6ft 4 lanking streak of p*ss like me can be hard compared to a butty 5ft Bulgarian.

Would be easy if you'd learned the technique when you were 10 with a broom handle of pvc. Thats where we should be going.

slemons

True, the gym is for strength.
The track is for speed.

Its surprising to know that the fastest men in the world never did olympic lifts and just followed a general strength plan. Ben Johnson squatted crazy weight,

This is why i cringe when i hear of McGurn introducing speed bench/chins for Bernard Dunne. For what?

Will his chinups ever be as fast as his uppercut? No, never. So what benefit is it dropping off weight to perform a slow movement? Could it teach him to move light weight slowly?

thirtyfoot

brianon wrote: »

Would be easy if you'd learned the technique when you were 10 with a broom handle of pvc. Thats where we should be going.

Nah, when I was 10 I was too busy learning how to hurdle with both legs, hurl a sliothar off left and right, block down in hurling without getting my head split open, pass a relay baton, kick a ball with both feet, lay up a bastketball on my homemade bball hoop, take a sideline cut, serve a tennis ball, narrow an angle on a striker and so on. Now if I wanted to be an Olympic weighlifter or be a steady gym goer perhaps but not for the all round sports I was doing I think I focused on the right things!! I should have learned how to do weights properly when I was 16 or so though:(

brianon

Tingle wrote: »

Now if I wanted to be an Olympic weighlifter or be a steady gym goer perhaps but not for the all round sports I was doing I think I focused on the right things!! I should have learned how to do weights properly when I was 16 or so though:(

I completely disagree. I think for all round sports these movements are crucial.

At 10 you introduce the lifts. Thats all. As you say. At that age there are plently of sporting activities to engage in. Introducing the lifts would be but a drop in the ocean of a 10 year olds sporting time.

thirtyfoot

brianon wrote: »

I completely disagree. I think for all round sports these movements are crucial.

At 10 you introduce the lifts. Thats all. As you say. At that age there are plently of sporting activities to engage in. Introducing the lifts would be but a drop in the ocean of a 10 year olds sporting time.

I can see where you are coming from and it makes sense.

The priority you put on weights though will be affected by your interest in the area. Obviously here it will have strong favour as many here are strong advocates of weights (I would be too now). From what I have seen from my experience in athletics (which was probably one of the leaders as regards a sport understanding the importance of weights and its affect on performance back in the 50's and 60's) is that at that age you focus on the sport specific skills, fun, movement*, jumping, throwing etc and that learning how to train should be left until maybe 14-16. This was debated here before and there will be conflicting views always and I'm sure there are merits to both.

*If that involves doing a few bodysquats, lunges etc thats grand but grooming kids when they are 10 so that they can lift properly when older is focusing on the wrong thing, in my opinion, if you are looking to have a rounded athlete in future years.

brianon

Tingle wrote: »

but grooming kids when they are 10 so that they can lift properly when older is focusing on the wrong thing, in my opinion, if you are looking to have a rounded athlete in future years.

To coach a 10 year old the oly lifts you first have to coach them the basic functional movements. squats, lunges etc... Also, you have to ensure that they CAN do the basic movements. Most can't these days.

Coaching a 10 year old to be able to oly lift ... once they've been functionally screened and corrected is exaclty what you can do to create a better all round athlete in the future.

At 10 you are not trying to be sport specific. At 10 we are talking about introducing the lifts (you start with squatting, jumping, overhead throwing, overhead squatting - all unloaded)... this can be done very easily and in a fun manner.

Imagine if you are coaching a GAA u-21 team where every player knows how to clean and snatch correctly !!! Silverware awaits such a club

Roper

slemons wrote: »

This is why i cringe when i hear of McGurn introducing speed bench/chins for Bernard Dunne. For what?

Will his chinups ever be as fast as his uppercut? No, never. So what benefit is it dropping off weight to perform a slow movement? Could it teach him to move light weight slowly?

And yet for all peoples internet cringing, McGurn has produced a great result.

kevpants

slemons wrote: »

True, the gym is for strength.
The track is for speed.

Its surprising to know that the fastest men in the world never did olympic lifts and just followed a general strength plan. Ben Johnson squatted crazy weight,

This is why i cringe when i hear of McGurn introducing speed bench/chins for Bernard Dunne. For what?

Will his chinups ever be as fast as his uppercut? No, never. So what benefit is it dropping off weight to perform a slow movement? Could it teach him to move light weight slowly?

I'm just trying to get what I think you're saying straight, are you saying speed bench etc won't build speed? Do you think he should pile on the weight so as to just get stronger rather than fast because movements like bench and chins aren't the fastest possible movement he can do? So from what you suggest speed work should be limited to being done with as close to no resistance as possible because a weighted movement is alway going to be slower?

Personally (as someone with no qualifications) that makes absolutely no sense when you consider what speed bench etc actually are. Pushing submaximal weights with maximal force. The point isn't that it is being most effective when you are moving at your fastest, if that was the case you wouldn't do speech bench you'd just lie on a bench with no bar and do "speed arms".

Never underestimate the threat of getting stronger but slowing up in a particular movement. Ben Johnson squatted huge but you can be sure he kept a very close eye on his bar speed.

slemons

kevpants wrote: »

I'm just trying to get what I think you're saying straight, are you saying speed bench etc won't build speed?

Ben Johnson squatted huge but you can be sure he kept a very close eye on his bar speed.

Yes, thats exactly what im saying.

No, he didnt. Its been discussed to death on another forum.
lol, why can i be sure he kept a close eye on bar speed?

Im sure McGurn is an excellent coach.

Roper

brianon wrote: »

Imagine if you are coaching a GAA u-21 team where every player knows how to clean and snatch correctly !!! Silverware awaits such a club

I could also say:

Imagine if you are coaching a GAA u-21 team where every player can squat and pull up, bench and sprint fast or any number of beneficial exercises. Being strong and fast doesn't guarantee any silverware. Staying injury free is probably the best benefit of any strength programme and I think weightlifting is more hazardous in that regard than the non-sexy stuff.

Weightlifting is great and I enjoy it but it is one of what should be a great many tools in a toolbox.

kevpants

slemons wrote: »

Yes, thats exactly what im saying.

So what do speed bench, chins whatever do? Do you therefore think there is no detriment to lifting heavy weight slowly rather than as fast as you can? Do you think bar speed as a concept is irrelevant?

slemons wrote: »

No, he didnt. Its been discussed to death on another forum.

Glad the people of the internet got together to clear up yet another training misconception.

slemons wrote: »

lol, why can i be sure he kept a close eye on bar speed?

LOL? You think bar speed is so irrelevant is deserves a LOL?

I'm not defending this McGurn chap. I think a lot of coaches are full of crap, just interested in the difference of opinion on speed. You didn't really explain why you think the fact that a speed chin is slower than an uppercut means it's useless.

maxchen

Roper wrote: »

I could also say:

Imagine if you are coaching a GAA u-21 team where every player can squat and pull up, bench and sprint fast or any number of beneficial exercises. Being strong and fast doesn't guarantee any silverware.

100% correct. If you can snatch double bodyweight, squad triple bodyweight, bench press a lorry... it'll have absolutely no relevence if you can't catch a ball and kick it over the bar.



Staying injury free is probably the best benefit of any strength programme and I think weightlifting is more hazardous in that regard than the non-sexy stuff.

I don't fully agree with this. Olympic weightlifting, when done under the close supervisation of a qualified coach is one of the safest ways of excercising in terms of staying injury free. I think that injuries only come from Oly lifting if you are trying to teach yourself the lifts- either from scratch or if you are getting infrequent coaching or you learned off dome sort of weekend course and are now attempting to self coach. I personally have only been doing Oly lifting since last November but I have never even had a tinge of discomfort from training. My coach - who g'em and wasabai and spiral would know(think hercs)- lifted until he was 40 and stayed injury free. He's been coaching nearly 50 years at this stage and he told me that only once ever did somebody who he was training get injured under his supervision and that was because he tried to lift too heavy of a weight after being warned not to. Not a personal attack on you Roper though, just going from my own experience.

slemons

Easy Kev, I was only trying to answer you, not ridicule.
Apologies for the lol.
It was aimed at the 'you can be sure' more than anything else. Why would i be sure?

Detriment to lifting heavy weight slowly? How slow is slow? I know of lots of sprinters that do iso holds and it doesnt slow them at all. google DB Hammer.

Laugh if you like about Johnson's training methods, but when one of the fastest men the world has ever seen lays his training programs bare then i would think its a good idea to have a glance over it. Most are very secretive or deliberately misleading.

The logic behind a speed chin up is ridiculous. Thats clear as day in my mind. I must not have the words to explain it more clearly.

Speed means as fast as you can move. A punch is faster than any chinup so why not just practice punching? Then do max effort chins for strength. How a speed chinup can make you a faster pncher i dont know. Same for speed squats and sprinting

spiral

Barry I cant really see how Oly lifting is anymore hazordous to your health than powerlifting, leg pressing , smith machine squatting etc.
That being said I would agree with you that there are a million ways to skin the cat, but a lot of the time it doesent hurt to teach athletes something that they might like to do , I think cleaning and benching could both be put in this category. There is IMO just as much technique involved in learning to squat properly , or bench properly as there is to clean properly. Snatch is probably a bit more technical but the weights involved are not that heavy until technique is reasonable.

Conditioned

spiral wrote: »

Barry I cant really see how Oly lifting is anymore hazordous to your health than powerlifting, leg pressing , smith machine squatting etc.
That being said I would agree with you that there are a million ways to skin the cat, but a lot of the time it doesent hurt to teach athletes something that they might like to do , I think cleaning and benching could both be put in this category. There is IMO just as much technique involved in learning to squat properly , or bench properly as there is to clean properly. Snatch is probably a bit more technical but the weights involved are not that heavy until technique is reasonable.

Good point. Particulary with Olympic lifting I don't see to many beginers picking up injuries because I don't think think they'll be able to lift heavy enough weights. Chances are that if you are an unsupervised beginner you'll give up long before you hit a bodyweight snatch.

mushykeogh

brianon wrote: »

I completely disagree. I think for all round sports these movements are crucial.

At 10 you introduce the lifts. Thats all. As you say. At that age there are plently of sporting activities to engage in. Introducing the lifts would be but a drop in the ocean of a 10 year olds sporting time.

Iv said this before but..... if you can teach kids of this age to clean and snatch with broomhandles and pvc pipes youll go along way to eliminating many restrictions, tighness in their body, theyl have the flexibility, balance and awareness that will only improve they ability to stop, turn, kick, catch as they get older. I think the biggest problem we ahve is the lack of fundamental movement skills in our kids, in my mind learning this movements is fantasticly benificial for any child regardless of what sport they are in.

kevpants

slemons wrote: »

Detriment to lifting heavy weight slowly? How slow is slow? I know of lots of sprinters that do iso holds and it doesnt slow them at all. google DB Hammer.

By slow I mean say squatting up slowly rather than powering up as fast as you can.

slemons wrote: »

Laugh if you like about Johnson's training methods, but when one of the fastest men the world has ever seen lays his training programs bare then i would think its a good idea to have a glance over it. Most are very secretive or deliberately misleading.

No I wasn't laughing at all. God I'd be the first person to admire Johnsons training.

slemons wrote: »

The logic behind a speed chin up is ridiculous. Thats clear as day in my mind. I must not have the words to explain it more clearly.

Speed means as fast as you can move. A punch is faster than any chinup so why not just practice punching? Then do max effort chins for strength. How a speed chinup can make you a faster pncher i dont know. Same for speed squats and sprinting

Ya see I think you're wrong and it seems clear in my mind too.

The way I've thought of speed, as a powerlifter but I think it still applies, is that when combined with strength it becomes force. So if I want to squat 200kg I need not only to have brute strength but also the ability to move with speed to get the weight to move, momentum I suppose. The same could be said of a sprinter with a strong leg who needs to apply force to the ground to move himself faster. By squatting with a weight that is say 50% of my max but applying 100% of my force I can train whatever part of my nervous system that controls the muscles to fire faster. The resistance is crucial though. This is actually a pretty staple practice for powerlifters. I can link to articles if you're interested.

I'd imagine the speed bench for a boxer would be based on the coaches assumption that trying to generate as much speed as possible against resistance is required to stimulate the nervous system into firing faster and with force?

As an example in real life, me, I have done a lot of heavy deadlift training and my max has increased over the past few months. However the speed with which I move the bar, even at low weights has become quite slow. Grinding out heavy reps slowly has led to me even pulling 60kg quite slowly, it feels very light but it doesn't move that fast. Hanley (boards poster and training partner) had the same issue and undertook a program of speed pulls, 50%-ish of his max for just 2 reps for loads of sets but pulling as hard and fast as he can. As a result his deadlifts at ALL weights are now noticeably faster than mine.

I suppose it's the idea of combining the newly built strength with speed to create force.

weightlifter

Roper wrote: »

"If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail"

If my username was weightlifter, I may suffer from some proximity bias too . I would expect a powerlifter to reccomend squats and a weightlifter to recommend snatches.

True most of the time. But you do realise that my posts were AGAINST recommending cleans and snatches as a first idea for GAA players?