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Spirit of Ireland - A bright spark in today's economic gloom?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    mgmt wrote: »
    Wave power is not commercially viable in 10 years. The small fluctuations in wave height mean you need massive structures to gain any worthwhile electrical output. But these structures then have to survive the wilds of the Atlantic Ocean.

    Tidal Energy is unfortunately not really a possibility in Ireland. Apart from Strangford Lough there is no suitable locations in Ireland. For instance, if you installed turbines on the tidal barrage on the River Lagan, you would only generate enough electricity to power the lights on the Albert Bridge. The reason being there is not enough of a head difference in the tides in Ireland.

    There are several ways of generating electricity from wave energy and one of those technologies is wave pumps

    There is a company in Co Kerry who have just completed wave tank trials in UCC, the resultant data indicates that if there was a seawater pumped storage reservoir in situ, it could generate electricity at similar costs to an Open Cycle Gas Turbine and much cheaper than peat fired power generation.

    That company is almost ready to move to quarter scale testing in Belmullet. The next step is full scale deployment.

    Wave pumps have few working parts, can be easily manufactured in Ireland and most of the capital cost is in the pipework and manifold linking the wave farm to the shore where conventional turbines generate the electricity. Having an existing seawater pumped storage facility means that half the capital cost on pipework is saved and the turbines already exist, allowing much cheaper generation.

    That combination will be feted around the world when it happens as it brings ocean energy into the mainstream.
    If the one from 1895 is such a success why has it not taken off as a concept around the world?

    There is talk about exporting the energy, but what if other countries cop onto the idea and undercut us. Ireland is not the only place with mountains and a sea beside them.

    Pumped storage did take off as a concept around the world. 5% of Europe's generating capacity is pumped storage, 10% of Japanese capacity is pumped storage. Worldwide pumped storage capacity will have doubled by 2014 to over 200,000 MW.

    And now University of Limerick have joined the ranks of world leaders in pumped storage R&D (The website is slightly out of date, David has received his Doctorate recently)

    Seawater pumped storage is the next step forward, Ireland has the geology to be extremely cost effective in this endevour.

    Competition drives innovation.
    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Happy easter, and the thread is almost 2 years old now...

    I first campaigned to bring nuclear power to Ireland over 35 years ago, it just might come to Moneypoint in 2025, provided its ideological proponents dont P too many people off in the mean time.
    Heroditas wrote: »
    Just as well they ditched the "energy independence within 5 years" tag, isn't it?

    I like this bit that's till on their site:
    To help address some of the wind intermittency issues, it has been proposed that Ireland build interconnectors to import power when our wind stops blowing. This is a patently bad idea for a country which has massive energy resources, which should be exploited for energy export.
    Yet hasn't Pat said they'd import power to fill the reservoirs if necessary?

    But Heroditas, as you well know, there is a world of difference between importing in the dead of night versus importing when you need the juice in 15 minutes.

    Our project plan acknowledges that Ireland is lucky enough to be well endowed with new thermal plant, thereby allowing Ireland inc to use its renewables plus pumped storage to take a predatory approach to exports.
    Hi Pat,

    You may be able to answer this question.
    Can't we achieve the equivalent concept of pumped storage by only generating power from our hydro-electric schemes when the wind is not blowing and when there is high power generation from wind, operate the hydro electric schemes (e.g. Ardnacrusha, River Lee schemes) in reverse (that is pump water from low to high)?

    Note that, the grid infrastructure connecting these locations is already in place. Now there might be some cost to raising the containment walls of the head race and upstream containment as well as the cost of the 2-way pumps, but it certainly seems it would be a low cost way to further evaluate and justify the concept of pumped storage hopefully on a larger scale than Turlough hill which only has full generation capability for a few hours.

    Of course the feasibility of this would depend on the capacity of water that could be stored upstream, which I don't have the data to calculate.

    This is an approach being researched at present in the US, it is used to some degree already in some places around the world.

    It does have the limitation that you must balance very carefully pumping versus natural river flow and this puts a major constraint on its availability.

    The Shannon and Lee have in recent years displayed a large propensity to flood in winter which is precisely when we would need a large storage capacity.

    However if you read the link to the University of Limerick above, you will see that their research shows that there are a lot of potential pumped storage sites in Ireland, many of whom would actually alleviate that flooding problem and turn adversity into profit.

    If it rains over the weekend, you might have time to read this report from the US governments Oak Ridge Labs.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Thanks for that wave pump link Pat along with the general state of the tech update. If you know the Kerry company yourself I would counsel them that last I heard there were 'issues' with the shore end of the Belmullet test site on the lines of nobody asked the locals if they minded or would sell land onshore. Another fine Eamon Ryan "smart and green" mess from what I heard. :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭greyed


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jun/18/ireland-wind-power-grid

    Some political movement which could help SoI. Has there been interest in this project from the new government?


  • Registered Users Posts: 29 Darac


    First time I've seen an group opposed to Spirit of Ireland. SOI must be making progress up in Donegal if they can get this group so worked up.

    http://seoda.net/index.html


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Darac wrote: »

    The group specifically refers to pumping sea water "Miles Inland" . A map would suffice to explain this.

    If the reservoir is not 'miles' inland we can discount them as eco loonies...and Ireland has a lot of eco loonies. :( I understood it was to go HERE which is not miles inland...not even 'A Mile' inland.

    If the reservoir is miles inland that is at some variance with material published by SoI in the past which predicated the deployment of the technology on there being a suitable valley VERY close to the sea.

    Pat could tell us.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    The group specifically refers to pumping sea water "Miles Inland" . A map would suffice to explain this.

    If the reservoir is not 'miles' inland we can discount them as eco loonies...and Ireland has a lot of eco loonies. :( I understood it was to go HERE which is not miles inland...not even 'A Mile' inland.

    If the reservoir is miles inland that is at some variance with material published by SoI in the past which predicated the deployment of the technology on there being a suitable valley VERY close to the sea.

    Pat could tell us.

    Sponge Bob, I couldn't comment on individual sites where negotiations with landowners and communities are taking place.

    I did hear a rumour though that you were good at geography in school.

    The civil servants in George Hendry's department were far more interested in importing the dispatchable type of renewable energy to the UK grid alongside having a place to put excess generation of their own for safekeeping.

    Why this was leaked to the press in advance of tomorrows meeting with Irish government is beyond my ken though.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Sorry , you mean Charles Hendry don't you :) And this

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jun/18/ireland-wind-power-grid

    I personally suspect that really large scale farms will be offshore and floating ..in around 8-10 years.

    Doesn't change the case for storage and despatchable that much TBH.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭mgmt


    Britain offers to subsidise Irish wind farm industry

    RONAN McGREEVY

    Mon, Jun 20, 2011

    THE BRITISH government could massively subsidise the Irish wind energy industry under proposals to be considered in London today.

    Britain believes the west coast and the seas around Ireland can provide it with a large amount of its renewable energy and could be willing to subsidise offshore wind farms there.

    Industry groups here say such a move could be worth up to €1.6 billion a year to the Irish economy.

    Taoiseach Enda Kenny and Minister for Energy Pat Rabbitte will be attending the British-Irish Council, where the issue of electricity interconnectivity will be high on the agenda.

    Mr Rabbitte will have separate meetings with his British counterpart, Charles Hendry, who said at the weekend that the proposals could bring “significant wealth [to Ireland] with very little downside”.

    Mr Hendry said the west coast of Ireland was an ideal location for wind farms, but the small Irish market meant there was no demand for the potential power generation. “We want to put that right,” he said.

    The British government is considering directly subsidising electricity through its feed-in tariff system, which would be a subsidy to private investors operating on Irish territory. It could also operate by a system known as “supplier obligation”, whereby British power companies would be mandated to buy a certain amount of renewable energy from Irish sources.

    Although Britain has significant wind resources of its own, especially in Scotland, it does not have enough to meet its targets of having 15 per cent of all energy from renewables by 2020.

    In addition, onshore wind farms are facing considerable opposition from environmentalists and offshore wind farms are having to be built far out to sea.

    Despite Ireland’s offshore wind potential, there is only one wind farm off Irish coasts. Offshore wind is considered uneconomic because of the extra costs involved and because of the belief that Ireland can meet its target of generating 40 per cent of electricity from renewable resources by 2020 by using onshore wind.

    The development of the east-west electricity connector between Rush North Beach, north Co Dublin, and Barkby Beach in north Wales is expected to be completed by the end of next year and will dramatically improve the capacity for both countries to supplement each other’s electricity grids.

    A spokesman for British department of energy and climate change said the British government would be seeking assurances that investment in Irish wind farms could be met within the existing regulatory framework.

    Irish Wind Energy Association chief executive Dr Michael Walsh welcomed the wind farm proposal.

    He said Ireland needed to generate 4,500 to 5,000 megawatts a year by 2020 to meet renewable targets. He believed there was capacity to generate 6,000 megawatts from onshore and a further 4,000 from offshore, meaning half of all Irish wind-generated energy could be exported to Britain.

    He estimated that 5,000 megawatts of exported electricity would be worth €1.6 billion annually at current electricity prices.

    © 2011 The Irish Times
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/0620/1224299223415_pf.html

    ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    According to ICIS Heron an energy markets advisor, the UK and Ireland have signed an agreement to link their electricity grids.
    The UK and Ireland have signed a deal that will see electricity generated in Irish waters specifically for the UK market.

    The member states of the British Irish Council, which met Monday in London, have signed up to what has been termed the "All Islands Approach".

    The deal will see the UK take advantage of the Irish west coast's huge potential for wind-powered generation capacity while Ireland will benefit economically from an increased electricity export potential.

    There is massive untapped potential in the Irish sea and onshore in Ireland, according to UK energy minister Charles Hendry.

    "Because Ireland's energy demand is only slightly larger than that of Yorkshire and Humberside (English regions), there has been little incentive to exploit the resource," Hendry said.

    Subsidies?

    Plans will be put in place to aid the building of wind generation and other renewables technologies.

    UK turns to Ireland for wind-produced electricity | 20/06/11 | ICIS Heren

    This is a game changer for the Irish economy.

    Read between the lines people.

    This agreement is worth tens of billions to Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Very optimistic projections there... This is a very aspirational plan as it stands, and it would need more than a 500MW interconnector to take full advantage of, given the scale of electricity usage in the UK. It also doesn't really solve energy security issues when a nice Scandanavian anticyclone parks over these islands in deepest winter.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I wonder whether they ever hear of a baleful monopoly called Eirgrid??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    The civil servants in George Hendry's department were far more interested in importing the dispatchable type of renewable energy to the UK grid alongside having a place to put excess generation of their own for safekeeping.

    All very well and good, except pumped hydro isn't renewable, so the only electricty that the UK would be interested in would be the wind component.


  • Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭greyed


    Aidan1 wrote: »
    All very well and good, except pumped hydro isn't renewable, so the only electricty that the UK would be interested in would be the wind component.

    Why is pumped hydro not renewable? The energy stored is sourced from renewable means, its simply a battery.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    The primary reason the UK wants more renewables is because it has a binding committment under an EU Directive, the 2009 Renewable Energy Directive (2009/28/EC).

    Under Recital 30 of that Directive, pumped storage is explicitly disallowed as a renewable resource, regardless of where the energy to pump the water uphill came from in the first place. The rationale for this is apparently around efficiency losses.

    For the UK , this means that the pumped hydro element of SoI is effectively redundant - all they would be interested in is electricity that they could claim as renewable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,754 ✭✭✭✭Dan Jaman


    Aidan1 wrote: »

    Under Recital 30 of that Directive, pumped storage is explicitly disallowed as a renewable resource, regardless of where the energy to pump the water uphill came from in the first place. The rationale for this is apparently around efficiency losses.
    How bleedin' stupid is that?
    Вашему собственному бычьему дерьму нельзя верить - V Putin
    




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭dynamick


    I think this rule is to avoid double counting.

    The energy generated by the wind turbine to pump the water uphill is already counted as renewable electricity generation. So, if you count the hydroelectricty generated by a pumped storage system, you would be counting the electricity generated twice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭greyed


    Aidan1 wrote: »
    The primary reason the UK wants more renewables is because it has a binding committment under an EU Directive, the 2009 Renewable Energy Directive (2009/28/EC).

    Under Recital 30 of that Directive, pumped storage is explicitly disallowed as a renewable resource, regardless of where the energy to pump the water uphill came from in the first place. The rationale for this is apparently around efficiency losses.

    For the UK , this means that the pumped hydro element of SoI is effectively redundant - all they would be interested in is electricity that they could claim as renewable.

    The pumped storage will still go a long way to securing the irish supply, and the UK may still be interested in energy regardless of the source over the next few years due to their predicted capacity shortfall.


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    greyed wrote: »
    The pumped storage will still go a long way to securing the irish supply, and the UK may still be interested in energy regardless of the source over the next few years due to their predicted capacity shortfall.

    To understand the opportunity in all of its glory would probably need a knowledge of the UK electricity market.

    I will attempt a general explanation over the next while.

    Meanwhile,
    PROVISION FOR a €2 billion investment in renewable energy including a €900 million pumped-storage hydroelectricity plant is to be included in the Clare county development plan which will be published today.
    County manager Tom Coughlan said they were hoping to lead by example in attracting private investment in renewable energy into the county.
    He envisaged that Clare would be noted as a clean-tech county with the likes of the Shannon Free Zone, Shannon Airport and the county council offices being powered by renewable energy.
    He said the county already had a reputation for pioneering new energy solutions.....

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0627/1224299635280.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    how much of that 2,000,000,000 or even the 900,000,000 is Clare Co. Co. going to put up Pat? Or is this just lines on a map - crayon drawing as we call it on boards.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    patgill wrote: »
    To understand the opportunity in all of its glory would probably need a knowledge of the UK electricity market.

    Maybe you mean the British electricity Market, Norn Iron is part of a single electricity market


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  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    dowlingm wrote: »
    how much of that 2,000,000,000 or even the 900,000,000 is Clare Co. Co. going to put up Pat? Or is this just lines on a map - crayon drawing as we call it on boards.

    I haven't replied for a while simply because I too became tired of talking about a concept rather than a real project.

    But now I can tell you that ABP have now given permission for the first project in the greater council plan, the Mount Callan windfarm.

    Clare County Council have invested in the Appropriate Assessment and the comprehensive, professionally applied Clare Wind Strategy which were the deciding factors in this case.

    Having so invested they will now begin to receive the return on that investment.

    The Mount Callan windfarm now has the privately sourced international funding in place to begin building this first project.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    And what of any pumped storage proposals? Are they still at the sensitive negotiations phase...


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    QUOTE=To_be_confirmed;73950870]And what of any pumped storage proposals? Are they still at the sensitive negotiations phase...[/QUOTE]

    The development plan includes provision for a pumped-storage hydroelectricity plant which supporters believe is the ideal solution to the problems of intermittent wind.

    The facility allowed for in the county development plan is similar to one proposed by the Spirit of Ireland group. In the case of the council, it envisages using fresh water rather than sea water.

    Clare County Council is separately carrying out a scoping exercise to find locations where this is possible, even though there are already advanced proposals to locate such a facility at 391 metre-high (1,283ft) Mount Callan.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0627/1224299635280.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Yes I know of that story, but Clare Co. Co. have only given permission for the first project which your post mentions is a windfarm. I assume there is a separate ongoing planning process for a pumped storage facility? That's what I was wondering about.


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    Yes I know of that story, but Clare Co. Co. have only given permission for the first project which your post mentions is a windfarm. I assume there is a separate ongoing planning process for a pumped storage facility? That's what I was wondering about.

    A similar Appropriate Assessment on pumped hydro is being done at the moment.

    The result of that process will inform developments in this matter, its a step by step approach.

    A similar plan led approach from the government could attract a lot of investment into the country in our hour of need.

    Here is a little more evidence

    http://www.sbpost.ie/news/ireland/firms-eye-up-ireland-as-energy-product-base-58184.html


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    patgill wrote: »
    A similar Appropriate Assessment on pumped hydro is being done at the moment.

    http://www.sbpost.ie/news/ireland/firms-eye-up-ireland-as-energy-product-base-58184.html

    Is this a prepacked SEA Pat, like the wave energy one of yore??


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Is this a prepacked SEA Pat, like the wave energy one of yore??

    Sponge Bob, I dont think so!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    If you were to contrast the two decisions by the board within the lask week, this one in Co Galway http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/238734.htm last week and the decision on the Clare project at Mount Callan.

    The board decision on the Clare project will be on their website tomorrow I believe, the ref for Mount Callan is PL03 .237524.

    In the case of Galway the decision was to refuse permission although the decision noted that there were concerns about avifauna.

    I would be interested in your analysis of the two decisions, both were in preferred wind areas with high windspeeds and local grid available. both were in tourist areas. In the case of Galway the board could have dealt with avifauna issues via a request for additional information or a section 131/132 to National Parks and Wildlife and / or a management plan for same, as they did in the case of Mount Callan.

    My analysis is that Clare County Council carried out a more comprehensive Appropriate Assessment and then integrated the resultant wind strategy more effectively into the County Development Plan.

    I expect the same detail will be paid to the assessment on storage.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    There is another one ( or is that 2) in the ABP system from Galway ...east of the refusal. Same promoters on all 3 projects I think.

    The Cloosh project, c.10 miles NE of the refusal inside a large forestry, wafted straight through and never even darkened ABP's desk. The local authority in Galway had no part in the preparation of any of the planning collateral.

    I'm dashed if I can state clearly why one project goes through and another not. The mods may not entirely thank me for suggesting it is related to latent "greenmail" ...as in not disproportional to the number of consultants hired from a green background during the preparation of the initial planning application itself. :)

    They are worse than FFers and their feckin brown envelopes to my mind. :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Sorry Pat, but getting windfarms built ain't enough - anyone can do that, and many have. We're interested in seeing what pumped storage gets built, if any.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,105 ✭✭✭hi5


    Pat ,does Spirit of Ireland have an alternative plan for pumping fresh water instead of sea water,would this mean completely rewriting the plan or can you easily adapt?


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