I Thought That Was Metaphorical!

PDN

Overblood wrote: »

Could the virgin birth be a metaphor? I don't think it's mentioned in the bible is it?

The virgin birth is recorded in both Matthew's Gospel and Luke's Gospel. In each case the literary form and context makes it very clear that the authors intended it to be understood as a literal event, not as a metaphor.

BTW, Overblood, I do hope that you are not going to keep posting different events and asking if each is a metaphor. Given your history of persistent low-level trolling I should warn you that will only hasten the fall of the sword of Damocles that is hovering over you (and in case you can't tell - the reference to the sword of Damocles is a metaphor for a ban).

Seaneh

liah wrote: »

No need for the personal insult, mate.

He's saying, I think, that he wants you guys to actually explain why things like the resurrection are fact but the seven days are metaphorical (pretty sure nothing clearly dictates that the seven days are metaphorical-- and what about the flood and ark and all that?), instead of getting into semantics as to how myth is interpreted from reality and "how to read the bible."

It's obviously not so clear cut, the bible doesn't tell you everything that's metaphorical and what isn't and a lot of christians believe in seven days and the ark and a lot don't.

So how about we get down to the question I'm ACTUALLY asking instead of bítching about "omg well you just didn't read the bible properly, omg it says loike right there!!11" because it obviously isn't THAT clear if so many denominations and individuals are split on things.

Because the word "Day" used in the OT doesnt translate directly as "Day" so it's safe to assume that it ment period of time or stage rather than a ilteral day where as the bible explicitly states that jesus died and was resurected.

When deciding what is and is not metaphorical in the bible you have to apply the text to the historical, social, geological and economical situations of the people the passage concerns rather than trying to apply it to your understanding of it without the previous situations.

prinz

AIR-AUSSIE wrote: »

I believe you left out the difference that caused the must conflict during the reformation - Transubstantiation.

As i said in a previous post.

Like PDN said, SOME major differences. Transubstantiation did not cause the most conflict during the reformation. There were many causes from state to state, issues differed from place to place.

PDN

AIR-AUSSIE wrote: »

I believe you left out the difference that caused the must conflict during the reformation - Transubstantiation.

As i said in a previous post.

I left out hundreds of differences.

Transubstantiation was much less an issue of conflict during the Reformation than the key issues of sola Scriptura or sola fide (Scripture alone & Faith alone).

wolfsbane

liah said:

So, I'll ask again, with the intent of my ORIGINAL QUESTION (regardless of how YOU interpret it), for the millionth time, and maybe this time someone will answer:

Do you believe in Genesis and the seven days, Adam and Eve, talking snake, etc? Why/why not? Do you believe in the story of ark? Why/why not? Do you believe in the resurrection? Why/why not? How do those differ, since there's nothing to dictate whether or not those incidents are or aren't metaphorical? How do other denominations feel about the same questions, and why?

Hi, liah.

Yes, I believe in Genesis and the seven days, Adam and Eve, talking snake, etc? Why? Because they are presented as historical narrative and the Lord Jessus and the apostles referred to them as such. To make them metaphor would demand a credible explanation, as you rightly point out, and would impose massive changes to our understanding of many doctrines. For example, it would require suffering and death to be regarded as 'very good', for God so described the universe and its biosphere on its completion. If millions of years of 'nature red in tooth and claw' preceded the emergence of man from the apes, it alters our understanding of the nature of 'good'.

If Noah's Flood - the judgment by water - did not wipe out all men except those in the ark, then the judgment by fire at the last day cannot be applied to all out side of Christ. So we see great theological revolutions logically follow from a metaphorical understanding of Genesis.

Seems to me those Christians who opt for the metaphorical understanding do so not for literary or theological demands, but in the face of them. They value the claims of modern consensus science too highly.

Even Augustine, who was too quick to speculate on how God might hide His meaning in metaphor, still took the age of the creation as c.6000 years. Commentators committed to letting Scripture interpret itself have no doubt that Genesis was meant to be taken as historical narrative. Some can fit in an old earth that came to ruin, then was reconstructed in 6 days; others like myself see it as beginning on Day One.

prinz

wolfsbane wrote: »

Yes, I believe in Genesis and the seven days, Adam and Eve, talking snake, etc? Why? Because they are presented as historical narrative and the Lord Jessus and the apostles referred to them as such. To make them metaphor would demand a credible explanation, as you rightly point out, and would impose massive changes to our understanding of many doctrines. For example, it would require suffering and death to be regarded as 'very good', for God so described the universe and its biosphere on its completion.

God made a beautiful world, filled with wondrous creatures of all kinds.It is indeed very good. Why would our understanding of that have to change? The vast majority of human suffering is caused by humans, i.e. we frequently bring about our destruction by rejecting God, as in Eden. Death is natural stage of life and death in communion with God is not to be feared.

wolfsbane wrote: »

If Noah's Flood - the judgment by water - did not wipe out all men except those in the ark, then the judgment by fire at the last day cannot be applied to all out side of Christ. So we see great theological revolutions logically follow from a metaphorical understanding of Genesis.

What God does with those 'outside of Christ' is His business.

AIR-AUSSIE

prinz wrote: »

The vast majority of human suffering is caused by humans, i.e. we frequently bring about our destruction by rejecting God, as in Eden.

Yes maybe true, but the vast majority of this human suffering is caused by humans acting in the name of 'God'.

dvpower

prinz wrote: »

What God does with those 'outside of Christ' is His business.

Creepy:mad:

PDN

AIR-AUSSIE wrote: »

Yes maybe true, but the vast majority of this human suffering is caused by humans acting in the name of 'God'.

That is untrue. The vast majority of suffering is caused by humans pursuing money, sex or power.

If you are looking for a forum where you can post inaccurate slurs and slams against religion then I recommend the A&A forum.

wolfsbane

prinz said:

God made a beautiful world, filled with wondrous creatures of all kinds.It is indeed very good. Why would our understanding of that have to change? The vast majority of human suffering is caused by humans, i.e. we frequently bring about our destruction by rejecting God, as in Eden. Death is natural stage of life and death in communion with God is not to be feared.

You have seen humans die? And you think it 'very good'? That's not how God describes it - it is the last enemy. It is not how it was meant to be. Likewise with the animal world - look in the eyes of a dog or cow you must kill and you will know this is not how it ought to be.

Most human suffering is not caused by humans - disease and disaster and failing bodies far out-weight the wars and murders we inflict on each other.

The animal world is daily witness to the predation of one on another, on top of the 'natural' suffering from drought, starvation, disease and failing bodies.

And that is the mechanism of evolution. That is the 'very good', if God used evolution to bring us about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
If Noah's Flood - the judgment by water - did not wipe out all men except those in the ark, then the judgment by fire at the last day cannot be applied to all out side of Christ. So we see great theological revolutions logically follow from a metaphorical understanding of Genesis.
What God does with those 'outside of Christ' is His business.

True. But He tells us what He is going to do with them, and that means we are not allowed to believe otherwise. Christ is the ark for all who will be saved - all outside him will be lost, as the OT type foreshadowed. If it was a metaphor, then the Final Judgment can be one too. Hardly what Peter taught:
2 Peter 3:1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

prinz

dvpower wrote: »

Creepy:mad:

How so? I don't believe all non-Christians are destined to unending fire....
I don't think God's redemption is solely reserved for Christians... and I'm the creepy one?

prinz

wolfsbane wrote: »

prinz said:

You have seen humans die? And you think it 'very good'? That's not how God describes it - it is the last enemy. It is not how it was meant to be. Likewise with the animal world - look in the eyes of a dog or cow you must kill and you will know this is not how it ought to be.

So you're a vegan? I have been with people shortly before they have passed away, and all have done so at peace/

wolfsbane wrote: »

Most human suffering is not caused by humans - disease and disaster and failing bodies far out-weight the wars and murders we inflict on each other.

If as much effort went into curing diseases, early warning systems and disaster relief,etc. as into arms, advertising, alcohol, tobacco, drugs, etc., many, many deaths could be avoided. However death is a part of life, always has been.

wolfsbane wrote: »

The animal world is daily witness to the predation of one on another, on top of the 'natural' suffering from drought, starvation, disease and failing bodies.

What are carnivores supposed to do? In the 'fall from grace' I didn't realise that God condemned animals to the food chain...

wolfsbane wrote: »

True. But He tells us what He is going to do with them, and that means we are not allowed to believe otherwise. Christ is the ark for all who will be saved - all outside him will be lost, as the OT type foreshadowed. If it was a metaphor, then the Final Judgment can be one too. Hardly what Peter taught.

Christ is indeed the ark for Christians to be saved, just as in the story of Noah, metaphorically speaking.The Final Judgement as descibed in the Bible, IMO only applies to those who have heard the good news so to speak.

wolfsbane

prinz said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
You have seen humans die? And you think it 'very good'? That's not how God describes it - it is the last enemy. It is not how it was meant to be. Likewise with the animal world - look in the eyes of a dog or cow you must kill and you will know this is not how it ought to be.
So you're a vegan?

No, but that does not mean I think the animal I eat has no significance. Since Noah's day mankind has been permitted to eat animals - but consuming their blood is forbidden, as it is a mark of their life. We are not to disrespect animals, even if we kill them for food, or to protect ourselves.

I have been with people shortly before they have passed away, and all have done so at peace/

I'm happy for you. Those I have been with died after a lot of suffering; my Dad with prostate cancer, my Mum from heart and kidney failure, my Mum-in-law from breast cancer, my Father-in-law from heart and lung failure. All their deaths came as a blessed relief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Most human suffering is not caused by humans - disease and disaster and failing bodies far out-weight the wars and murders we inflict on each other.
If as much effort went into curing diseases, early warning systems and disaster relief,etc. as into arms, advertising, alcohol, tobacco, drugs, etc., many, many deaths could be avoided. However death is a part of life, always has been.

Some ease could be given to some - but for most life includes significant suffering and ends likewise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
The animal world is daily witness to the predation of one on another, on top of the 'natural' suffering from drought, starvation, disease and failing bodies.
What are carnivores supposed to do? In the 'fall from grace' I didn't realise that God condemned animals to the food chain...

Carnivores are now supposed to kill. And, Yes, the Fall brought predation. And after the Flood, man was allowed to eat animals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
True. But He tells us what He is going to do with them, and that means we are not allowed to believe otherwise. Christ is the ark for all who will be saved - all outside him will be lost, as the OT type foreshadowed. If it was a metaphor, then the Final Judgment can be one too. Hardly what Peter taught.
Christ is indeed the ark for Christians to be saved, just as in the story of Noah, metaphorically speaking.The Final Judgement as descibed in the Bible, IMO only applies to those who have heard the good news so to speak.

Have you not read what Paul said?
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others...
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Condemned. Children of wrath. Having no hope. Without God.
That's speaking of heathens.

philologos

AIR AUSSIE: Why do you expect us to explain Christian belief without using the Bible? If you are coming here to ask about Christianity you should expect it as a means to answer your question more fully.

prinz

wolfsbane wrote: »

No, but that does not mean I think the animal I eat has no significance. Since Noah's day mankind has been permitted to eat animals - but consuming their blood is forbidden, as it is a mark of their life. We are not to disrespect animals, even if we kill them for food, or to protect ourselves..

Of course not. I love animals. I respect animals, and if there is one thing about food I abhor it's people wasting it, especially meat. Has caused frequent niggly arguments with my OH, I can tell you. I'm the first to remind her that an animal died so she could have a ham sandwich, and it bugs me when she wastes/throws away meat.

wolfsbane wrote: »

I'm happy for you. Those I have been with died after a lot of suffering; my Dad with prostate cancer, my Mum from heart and kidney failure, my Mum-in-law from breast cancer, my Father-in-law from heart and lung failure. All their deaths came as a blessed relief.

I didn't say those I knew who have died didn't suffer, they did. However they were not worried that death was 'the last evil' or how did you put it. It was indeed seen even by them as a blessed relief, and a passing to the next stage, in God's love. Likewise I don't fear death. It's one step closer to the Almighty.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Have you not read what Paul said?
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others...
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Condemned. Children of wrath. Having no hope. Without God.
That's speaking of heathens.

I would see what is intended here, is people who learned about Jesus and God, and turned their back on him. I believe God has revealed himself in different ways to different peoples. I wouldn't like to think that other peoples, based on the cirumstances of their birth are predetermined to come out on the wrong side of the Final Judgement. Everyone will be judged one day, I don't see God turning a back to the majority of people on this planet. That's not the message Jesus brought us. IMO of course.

philologos

Overblood wrote: »

Prinz I do plan on reading the bible. I might actually pop into Easons on the way back from work and pick up a copy. I hope bibles are cheap. Are they cheap? Don't want to spend too much now. Recession and all.

Depends on the translation. I personally would recommend the NRSV for accuracy.
http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9780007242436/NRSV-Anglicised-Compact-Bible

wolfsbane

prinz said:

Of course not. I love animals. I respect animals, and if there is one thing about food I abhor it's people wasting it, especially meat. Has caused frequent niggly arguments with my OH, I can tell you. I'm the first to remind her that an animal died so she could have a ham sandwich, and it bugs me when she wastes/throws away meat.

Glad to see such respect. But it seems to me you could not then regard their suffering and death as 'very good'.

I didn't say those I knew who have died didn't suffer, they did. However they were not worried that death was 'the last evil' or how did you put it. It was indeed seen even by them as a blessed relief, and a passing to the next stage, in God's love. Likewise I don't fear death. It's one step closer to the Almighty.

It sure is. But it is not 'very good'. Here's the word of God on it:
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others...
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Condemned. Children of wrath. Having no hope. Without God.
That's speaking of heathens.
I would see what is intended here, is people who learned about Jesus and God, and turned their back on him. I believe God has revealed himself in different ways to different peoples. I wouldn't like to think that other peoples, based on the cirumstances of their birth are predetermined to come out on the wrong side of the Final Judgement. Everyone will be judged one day, I don't see God turning a back to the majority of people on this planet. That's not the message Jesus brought us. IMO of course.

God certainly reveals Himself to all mankind - in the creation that testifies to His eternal power and Godhead, and in their consciences. But such revelation will not bring them to faith in Christ - they need the gospel preached to them and the regenerating power of the Spirit to apply it.

How do you think a Hindu or Muslim can be saved? By their good works? By being faithful to Krishna or Allah? The message Jesus brought us is this:
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Matthew 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

The 'few' who are to be saved are predestined to that, so circumstances are not able to prevent it - the heathen in the jungle who is of the elect will be brought to hear the gospel, or the gospel will be brought to them, and they will repent. The majority of people on this planet will perish in their sins - because they do not want to acknowledge God and never will want to, no matter if the gospel is preached to them daily.

Húrin

liah wrote: »

Like, what makes it okay to eat shrimp and wear items of clothing that are blended, but not okay to accept homosexuals, other than one suits you and the other doesn't?

Why do you imply that it does not Christians to accept homosexuals? Not true either...

Homosexuality considered problematic in the new testament, while it is specifically stated in the same testament that no animals are unclean to eat as in jewish law.

Húrin

wolfsbane wrote: »

The 'few' who are to be saved are predestined to that, so circumstances are not able to prevent it - the heathen in the jungle who is of the elect will be brought to hear the gospel, or the gospel will be brought to them, and they will repent. The majority of people on this planet will perish in their sins - because they do not want to acknowledge God and never will want to, no matter if the gospel is preached to them daily.

Wolfie you contradict yourself. If the few who are saved are saved because it is predestined, then the majority who perish will die not "because they do not want to acknowledge God" but because that too is predestined - they are unable to acknowledge God. I don't see how you can sneak free will into this one.

wolfsbane

Húrin wrote: »

Wolfie you contradict yourself. If the few who are saved are saved because it is predestined, then the majority who perish will die not "because they do not want to acknowledge God" but because that too is predestined - they are unable to acknowledge God. I don't see how you can sneak free will into this one.

No, for all of us were heading for hell. If God did nothing, all of us would end there. God did not predestine anyone to sin - they did that naturally. Their unbelief, their refusal to acknowledge God is the natural state of us all, born with Adam's fallen nature. Man's will is bound to his nature. The old nature means he will never choose to love God. The new nature means he certainly will.

God chose to save a people for Himself from out of the mass of fallen humanity. He did that before the universe was made, and predestined them to eternal life:
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

monosharp

prinz wrote: »

How so? I don't believe all non-Christians are destined to unending fire....
I don't think God's redemption is solely reserved for Christians... and I'm the creepy one?

Maybe I was hasty by thanking this, but do you believe that someone like a Buddhist could potentially be 'saved' ?

Buddhist = Buddhist not beliving anything related to christianity except perhaps JC was an alright chap.

wolfsbane

monosharp wrote: »

Maybe I was hasty by thanking this, but do you believe that someone like a Buddhist could potentially be 'saved' ?

Buddhist = Buddhist not beliving anything related to christianity except perhaps JC was an alright chap.

If I may offer a comment:
No, no one will be saved who does not trust in the God of the Bible. Trusting Him means believing and obeying His gospel, trusting in Jesus Christ His Son as their Saviour.

Sincerely following a false god/religion/ideology doesn't count. If it did, Christ sent the Church of a fool's errand, and was just another fallible man.