Ireland to go down the Electric car route?

Hector Mildew

Blitzkrieger wrote: »

You must be joking - what about the enviornmental impact of all those batteries?

Hydrogen fuel cell ftw.....

Fuel cells require precious metals to manufacture, though like batteries they can be recycled after use. However, current fuel cells are about 50% efficient at converting H2 to electricity compared with about 85-90% for Battery to electric motor.

A quick comparison of the primary energy to wheel lufecycle..

Hydrogen Car -

Fuel --> Electricity --> H2 --> Storage --> Fuel Cell --> Electricity --> Motor --> Wheels

Versus

Electric Car -

Fuel --> Electricity --> Battery --> Motor --> Wheels


Guess which is more efficient.

akkadian

Hector Mildew wrote: »

Fuel cells require precious metals to manufacture, though like batteries they can be recycled after use. However, current fuel cells are about 50% efficient at converting H2 to electricity compared with about 85-90% for Battery to electric motor.

A quick comparison of the primary energy to wheel lufecycle..

Hydrogen Car -

Fuel --> Electricity --> H2 --> Storage --> Fuel Cell --> Electricity --> Motor --> Wheels

Versus

Electric Car -

Fuel --> Electricity --> Battery --> Motor --> Wheels


Guess which is more efficient.

That's just efficiency in terms of number of steps. It's the bottom line in terms of energy and resource consumption that is the most important consideration IMO. Bicycles win!

stevenmu

So basically what we need is a hydrogen fuel-cell / battery hybrid?

Hector Mildew

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Guess which is more practical

In the short to medium term (at least) I would say direct electric cars. Battery and other storage technologies are advancing faster than H2 storage and distribution technologies. Also H2 storage tech is very expensive due to the high pressures involved and risk of explosion.

alias no.9

Hector Mildew wrote: »

In the short to medium term (at least) I would say direct electric cars. Battery and other storage technologies are advancing faster than H2 storage and distribution technologies and cost a lot less.

Park a battery powered car up for a week and come back, what percentage of the charge is left?

Hector Mildew

LIGHTNING wrote: »

How so, drive your electric car to its maximum range and then what do you do? Wait 6hrs for it to recharge (if you have somewhere to plug it in) or in a H powered car pull up to a service station and refill.

Currently, 80% recharge in 10 - 30 minutes depending on battery technology. This is improving fast.

The ESB will have 1500 public charge points nationwide by the end of this year, how many filling stations will be selling H2?

Battery tech is no overtaking H storage, we have been storing/transporting using H for over a century.

This is like comparing the storage of H2O and H2! Liquid hydrocarbons like petrol and diesel are a lot easier and safer to transport store than hydrogen.

In regard to the safety issues the high capacity batteries arent the safetest things in the world either, if they get penetrated the can cause an awful mess. Just check online for videos of people messing about with Lithium Polymer batteries.

Check out Hindenburg and other H2 explosion videos. The Honda H2 car stores 400L of H2 under 380 atmospheres pressure - a very big bang if something goes wrong!

Hector Mildew

alias no.9 wrote: »

Park a battery powered car up for a week and come back, what percentage of the charge is left?

Depends on the battery

Hector Mildew

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Current electric cars dont charge 80% in 10-30 minutes and that included the Volt\Ampera. I doubt that ESB will have that many charging point but I could be wrong. Batteries can explode in just as brilliant and fancy way btw, I cant open Youtube but there are plenty of videos of exploding. Remember all those notebooks that were recalled due to exploding batteries.

Nissan Leaf battery charges to 80% in 30 minutes. Can't find links to the faster charge, think it might be Tesla but I'll check.

Future prospect of a 10 second charge! http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/03/lithium-breakthrough-could-charge-batteries-in-10-seconds.ars


ESB Map - http://www.esb.ie/main/ecars/e-charging/map-of-charge-points.jsp Now show me the H2 filling station map

pajo1981

Also, don't forget that batteries are commodity items, while fuel cells are not - the amount of money being pumped into the development of batteries is several orders of magnitude greater than that of fuel cells.

pajo1981

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Current electric cars dont charge 80% in 10-30 minutes and that included the Volt\Ampera. I doubt that ESB will have that many charging point but I could be wrong. Batteries can explode in just as brilliant and fancy way btw, I cant open Youtube but there are plenty of videos of exploding. Remember all those notebooks that were recalled due to exploding batteries.

Those would be vids of Lipo batteries, which are not used in e-cars.

Hector Mildew

LIGHTNING wrote: »

No point linking articles from 2009, from that map I can only see a handful of actually installed points.

I linked a 2009 article as that technology should be closer to production. Only a few public charge points now, but the ESB say on that page that there will be 1500 charge points at the end of this year - not that far away. There's another map on the Nissan website with private charge points owned by filling stations etc.

I am not saying that we should switch to H powered cars over night but I think electric cars arent the way foward.

Hydrogen fuel cell cars are electric but energy is stored in a gas tank rather than a battery. I think BMW make a H2 fuelled car with an engine which actually burns the hydrogen but I don't know much about that.

Who knows what we'll be driving in 10 years time - I grew up expecting to have a flying car by 2011

BULLER

Zube wrote: »

Yes, that's as real as electric cars get: a €150,000 two seat sports car.

Correct, thats as real as an electric sports car gets (until its mass produced).

And for 0-60 in 3.7seconds its not bad!



Will go on sale for $50,000 next year.

Saloon car that does 0-60 in 6secs,
has a 450km range
and has a high voltage charge time of 20 minutes.



One word: Slick!

The perception that electric cars are **** boxes will go out the door when these cars come onto the market.

dr.fuzzenstein

alias no.9 wrote: »

Tell me, where does the hydrogen come from?

Hydrogen can be made by splitting water into oxygen and hydrogen.
This can be achieved using solar energy and because hydrogen is storable energy, you can make hay while the sun shines, so, unlike electricity for the grid, demand and availability don't have to coincide.
Hydrogen would have to be made in sunnier climes than this, of course.
So you split up water using solar energy, run cars on it and these cars emit water.
This is the way forward, how anyone can not see that is beyond me.
To run a planet on water is the only way.
And, some time into the future, nuclear fusion.
This whole idea of electric cars being run of our turf and coal fired antique power stations is just more 19th century nonsense, the same as combustion engines.
Battery powered noddy cars are already obsolete, nothing but a stop gap measure and I will be waiting for hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicles before getting out of my diesel.

shedweller

gotta love that tesla model S.

I voted an all electric future for cars in Ireland. It will take time but it will most likely happen.
Then the enthusiasts can enjoy their V8's or whatever they like at the weekends! Thats a good thing right?:)
If an all electric scenario doesn't happen, it will be some other technology like H2 etc. In the end, it will be an energy carrier of some sort.
I don't know the figures re: emissions, cost etc in relation to battery power or H2 power so i can't say which is cleaner. I'd err on the side of H2 but it's a guess. Batteries use a lot of chemicals and metals and last a few years. Maybe get recycled at the end of life??? But there is a cost involved in that.
An H2 fuel cell should last a lot longer so it is mostly down to the cost of H2 extraction and getting it to the end user.

I found a table that breaks down the costs (in USD) of the different power sources:
http://www.buchmann.ca/Article1-page1.asp

pajo1981

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Hydrogen can be made by splitting water into oxygen and hydrogen.
This can be achieved using solar energy...


This is the way forward, how anyone can not see that is beyond me.
To run a planet on water is the only way.

The electrolysis process that you just described is only 50% efficient- that is why this is not the way forward.

Using that same energy to charge a battery is much more efficient and makes much more sense.

Also, don't forget that storing H in a tank is a nightmare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agSUjWsffew

pajo1981

shedweller wrote: »

Batteries use a lot of chemicals and metals and last a few years.

Don't forget that conventional batteries are used in everything and there is always a huge demand for lighter, higher capacity and faster charging batteries.

This demand will drive improvements, while fuels cell tech stagnates.

pajo1981

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

To run a planet on water is the only way.

Fuel cells contain all sorts of rare earth elements an are v complicated.

What is your obsession with water, btw?

Hector Mildew

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Hydrogen can be made by splitting water into oxygen and hydrogen.
This can be achieved using solar energy and because hydrogen is storable energy, you can make hay while the sun shines, so, unlike electricity for the grid, demand and availability don't have to coincide.
Hydrogen would have to be made in sunnier climes than this, of course.
So you split up water using solar energy, run cars on it and these cars emit water.
This is the way forward, how anyone can not see that is beyond me.
To run a planet on water is the only way.
And, some time into the future, nuclear fusion.
This whole idea of electric cars being run of our turf and coal fired antique power stations is just more 19th century nonsense, the same as combustion engines.
Battery powered noddy cars are already obsolete, nothing but a stop gap measure and I will be waiting for hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicles before getting out of my diesel.

That doesn't really make sense.

The purpose of the hydrogen powered fuel cell in these vehicles is to produce electricity to power an electric motor. In this regard they are the same as your "Battery powered noddy cars."

Fuel cells do not produce more power than batteries and a battery usually acts as a buffer between the cell and the motor, in other words hydrogen vehicles are battery powered :eek:

If solar energy can be used to produce H2 then it can be used (more efficiently) to charge batteries. Likewise if fossil fuels can be used to charge batteries then the same electricity can be used to release hydrogen from water.

The real issues are of the cost and efficiencies of using electricity to produce H2 (50-70% efficient) so that it can be converted back to electricity in an expensive fuel cell (50% efficient). Why do this when you could use the same electricity to charge a battery (85% efficient)?

ei.sdraob

ahem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtGp8Sha_mA

MarkoC

Its a nice fairy-tale but i cant see it will happen ...
Would you buy an electrical car if theres nowhere to charge the batteries which will last only 1h ?
Only "very green" peolple will go for that who will get free chargers and dont drive more than 50km a day
I think its all about the votings again ... But all this doesnt make any sense .... yet

The country is not able even to fix the roads and now they coming up with this wonderful idea ?

Best joke ive read today

Hector Mildew

MarkoC wrote: »

Its a nice fairy-tale but i cant see it will happen ...
Would you buy an electrical car if theres nowhere to charge the batteries which will last only 1h ?

160Kmh?

As I said earlier, 1500 esb charging points by end of this year...
http://www.esb.ie/main/ecars/e-charg...rge-points.jsp

But all this doesnt make any sense .... yet

As a matter of interest, how expensive would petrol have to be to change your mind?

ei.sdraob

Hector Mildew wrote: »

As I said earlier, 1500 esb charging points by end of this year...
http://www.esb.ie/main/ecars/e-charg...rge-points.jsp

Having toilets and proper rest-stops on our motorways would be a start ...

Hector Mildew wrote: »

As a matter of interest, how expensive would petrol have to be to change your mind?

remove all taxes on petrol and we be paying circa 50 cent just like they do in US

caseyann

So aran island is going to be the test area for the car.




Green dream: Aran Islanders test out electric cars

Electric dreams: eight Aran islanders will drive a car like this (Pic: www.greenmachines.ie)
The Aran Islands off the west coast of Ireland have been chosen as the perfect testing ground for the electric car.The islands were considered an ideal testing site because there is plenty of wind and the waves beat hard on the shorelines, drumming up energy.

If they would make the car less bubble and a bit nice to look at and roomie i wouldnt have problem with electric cars.
But the one they are showing here is ugly.

Hector Mildew

ei.sdraob wrote: »

remove all taxes on petrol and we be paying circa 50 cent just like they do in US

Not going to happen, if it did then we'd end up paying it through higher income tax, motor tax, and VAT. We have to pay back the IMF somehow

MarkoC

Hector Mildew wrote: »

As a matter of interest, how expensive would petrol have to be to change your mind?

If the petrol is 3 yoyos a litre and theres NOWHERE to charge the electric joke, i think majority will stay with petrol/diesel cars.

1500 esb charging points are nothing for the whole country, you need 10 in one supermarket already to bring some interest in. Do you image Cork-Dublin route, on a half way theres a charging station and 300 cars in a queue ?

Trust me, its not a solution till the batteries wont last long, takes hours to charge and are way too expensive to replace as they wont last long.

Hector Mildew

caseyann wrote: »

So aran island is going to be the test area for the car.




Green dream: Aran Islanders test out electric cars

Electric dreams: eight Aran islanders will drive a car like this (Pic: www.greenmachines.ie)
The Aran Islands off the west coast of Ireland have been chosen as the perfect testing ground for the electric car.The islands were considered an ideal testing site because there is plenty of wind and the waves beat hard on the shorelines, drumming up energy.

If they would make the car less bubble and a bit nice to look at and roomie i wouldnt have problem with electric cars.
But the one they are showing here is ugly.

If they want to promote and electric cars as an attractive practical alternative, that's not the right car. The Tesla Model-S or even the Nissan Leaf would be the way to go

caseyann

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Is there actually a single turbine on the island? I am sure having the wild Aran landscape covered in windmills will do wonders for their tourism industry.

]Wind Turbines on Inis Meáin.

It seems they do.
I would love to see them get good tourism,but i would hate to see our beautiful Aran Islands modernized in some ways.

ei.sdraob

Hector Mildew wrote: »

The Tesla Model-S or even the Nissan Leaf would be the way to go

I dont know about the Leaf but the Model-S does look interesting!

caseyann wrote: »

The islands were considered an ideal testing site because there is plenty of wind and the waves beat hard on the shorelines, drumming up energy.

Is there actually a single turbine on the island? I am sure having the wild Aran landscape covered in windmills will do wonders for their tourism industry.

Hector Mildew wrote: »

Not going to happen, if it did then we'd end up paying it through higher income tax, motor tax, and VAT. We have to pay back the IMF somehow

They manage in US and other countries somehow and have cheaper insurance and plate taxes, and what little tax is charged actually goes onto making/maintaining descent straight roads. imagine that!

MarkoC wrote: »

If the petrol is 3 yoyos a litre and theres NOWHERE to charge the electric joke, i think majority will stay with petrol/diesel cars.

They can take my 4.4l v8 truck over my dead body , would take alot more than 3eur to even consider electric (unless those teslas comedown by about 90K ) its hard to put a price on me getting to where I need to go quickly, safely, comfortably and with little hassle (I suppose warming up the engine on cold mornings does take some time)

caseyann

How did that happen :P

ei.sdraob

caseyann wrote: »

How did that happen :P

sorry was trying to quote many posts at same time