online poker getting much tougher to beat

Treehouse72

People can watch training videos all they like, but technical ability will only get you half your winrate. The other half is tilt control, discipline, bordom control, good rb/bonus whoring, good table selection, keeping fit/eating/sleeping well, BR management and so forth. Happily, no video can teach this stuff, so for those of us who are not naturally gifted at poker we need to really hammer this stuff. The good regs can lose a fortune through leaks in this latter area allowing the medicore regs like me to close the gap between our winrates.

I also think that too many regs want so much to be that aggro hardass TAG playing, say, 25/23, 10% 3b, owning in 3b pots etc., that they end up owning themselves all day long. I think for most of these normal grinders at 200NL and below 18/15 would bring in more bacon if grinding and monies are your aim. I remember a video instructor (I think it was Krantz) saying that some of the best winners are the quiet little TAGs you hardly notice and think you can run over but who are tight enough that their ranges are solid, thinking enough not to allow themselves be run-over by the other regs, have decent enough fundamentals that they can beat the rake and the fish, 3b/4b just enough that you are never sure etc...this basic approach is appealing to me more and more in the chaotic and ever changing games today.*

* York Notes: I am a rakeback whoring nit trying to justify my existence

zuutroy

Agree with you Treehouse. At the moment there are an absolute shedload of ssnl regs playing with PFR above 20% and the simple fact is they aren't nearly good enough postflop to play such a wide range profitably. Just flatting in position and taking their abc postflop lines apart is a solid earner. By the same token they assume if you play like 19/15 you must have it, and you can 2/3 barrel and c/r the crap out of them and they just give up, fist pumping that they didn't pay off the nit.

HibsAreIt

Everyone keeps saying *Regs* whats that?

Grafter

HibsAreIt wrote: »

Everyone keeps saying *Regs* whats that?

regulars

newbie2

Grafter

They're cheating!

They have more cards than him.

Macspower

I'm fed up of playing shortstack toasters

Grafter

Macspower wrote: »

I'm fed up of playing shortstack toasters

Sláinte Mhath

DeadMoney

Treehouse72 wrote: »

People can watch training videos all they like, but technical ability will only get you half your winrate. The other half is tilt control, discipline, bordom control, good rb/bonus whoring, good table selection, keeping fit/eating/sleeping well, BR management and so forth. Happily, no video can teach this stuff, so for those of us who are not naturally gifted at poker we need to really hammer this stuff. The good regs can lose a fortune through leaks in this latter area allowing the medicore regs like me to close the gap between our winrates.

I also think that too many regs want so much to be that aggro hardass TAG playing, say, 25/23, 10% 3b, owning in 3b pots etc., that they end up owning themselves all day long. I think for most of these normal grinders at 200NL and below 18/15 would bring in more bacon if grinding and monies are your aim. I remember a video instructor (I think it was Krantz) saying that some of the best winners are the quiet little TAGs you hardly notice and think you can run over but who are tight enough that their ranges are solid, thinking enough not to allow themselves be run-over by the other regs, have decent enough fundamentals that they can beat the rake and the fish, 3b/4b just enough that you are never sure etc...this basic approach is appealing to me more and more in the chaotic and ever changing games today.*

* York Notes: I am a rakeback whoring nit trying to justify my existence

These are some really good points. The 200nl and 400nl on stars games have become pre flop raising wars with nobody wanting to play post flop. I think there is certainly a lot to be said for the straight forward TAG style. I recall seeing a Brian Townsend vid where he was sweating a guy at 400nl and noticed a player from back when he used to play these limits. He commented that the guy was one of the biggest winners at this limit and played a very TAG style and went very unnoticeable.
A lot of players feel that they have to push the action in these games and end up owning themselves and having very high variance. While there is certainly plenty of players who have found a lot of success in playing a high % of hands etc, many of the LAG regs at lower mid stakes are not strong enough post flop to play all of these hands. I guess it depends of whatever works for you.

CL7

Ok, genuine question but didn't want to start another thread. If 90-95% of poker players lose over time and the majority of players are still completely ignorant of poker math concepts, theory etc. How can the online games be considered tough to beat?

Edit: I meant for players who actually study the game.

ArmaniJeanss

Fionn^ wrote: »

If the majority of players are still completely ignorant of poker math concepts, theory etc.

The above is not true, nearly all players have an idea now about preflop handranges and basic maths.

Gone are the days when it seemed possible to believe that your opponent wasn't sure if an Ace played low as well as high, that a paired board meant their straight or flush wasn't the nuts, even whether a K was better than a Q.

There are still exploitable players, but very few clueless players.

CL7

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

The above is not true, nearly all players have an idea now about preflop handranges and basic maths.

Gone are the days when it seemed possible to believe that your opponent wasn't sure if an Ace played low as well as high, that a paired board meant their straight or flush wasn't the nuts, even whether a K was better than a Q.

There are still exploitable players, but very few clueless players.

I think I phrased it wrong. It should have read "ignorance of poker math and theory beyond the basics" I was not refering the very basic rules of the game.

I disagree that nearly all players have an idea about preflop ranges and basic maths. Not at the tables I sit at anyway. I would consider alarge majority of these players clueless. Admitedly I play 10 and 25nl. You are probably playing a good few levels above me.

Treehouse72

One other thing I haven't seen mentioned yet in this thread:

The US of A.

When the Yanks return, it will be a day to make the angels weep.

pok3rplaya

Treehouse72 wrote: »

One other thing I haven't seen mentioned yet in this thread:

The US of A.

When the Yanks return, it will be a day to make the angels weep.

I'm pretty convinced that when the yanks return we're in for a few long hard months of crap games when the euro sites are flooded with good Americans. Tons of the recreational American players have probably gone off poker after not being able to play for so long and they're not just gonna jump back online the very first day it comes back.

HIVeindhoven

Treehouse72 wrote: »

The US of A.

When the Yanks return, it will be a day to make the angels weep.

Pretty sure you'll be dissapointed here. As mentioned above , good players will flood the euro sites. Meanwhile the financial landscape for Fishy McSpunk has detiorated big time since he was last able to deposit online. That is if there even is a load of players waiting patiently in the shadows for the law to change so they can spunk their non-existent savings all over the web. Dream on.

Still you can always comfort yourself with the delusion that China will pick up the slack , like the guys on 2+2 do.

lenomark

play on the less known sites better players also better chance

Fromvert

I honestly dont get how people can complain, do you's honestly think people will continuously plough their money into something their **** at. Stop complaining and keep improving. I must be one of the few that enjoy playing good players. I cant believe I think it will make me a better player, im such an idiot.

Daithio

Fromvert wrote: »

I honestly dont get how people can complain, do you's honestly think people will continuously plough their money into something their **** at. Stop complaining and keep improving. I must be one of the few that enjoy playing good players. I cant believe I think it will make me a better player, im such an idiot.

You're not wrong.

Rb

pok3rplaya wrote: »

I'm pretty convinced that when the yanks return we're in for a few long hard months of crap games when the euro sites are flooded with good Americans. Tons of the recreational American players have probably gone off poker after not being able to play for so long and they're not just gonna jump back online the very first day it comes back.

Absolutely.

Sure 99% of the Americans on 2+2 are convinced that the Euro-only sites are like Party pre-UIGEA and they'll be on said sites as soon as they can move their money there.
It may make sites like FTP and Stars a bit softer though, as the actual fish will probably stick around there while said regs hit the euro sites.

Daithio

pok3rplaya wrote: »

I'm pretty convinced that when the yanks return we're in for a few long hard months of crap games when the euro sites are flooded with good Americans. Tons of the recreational American players have probably gone off poker after not being able to play for so long and they're not just gonna jump back online the very first day it comes back.

It will definitely be slow, but with good enough marketing I reckon within a year it will be picking up again.

TommyGunne

Treehouse72 wrote: »

People can watch training videos all they like, but technical ability will only get you half your winrate. The other half is tilt control, discipline, bordom control, good rb/bonus whoring, good table selection, keeping fit/eating/sleeping well, BR management and so forth. Happily, no video can teach this stuff, so for those of us who are not naturally gifted at poker we need to really hammer this stuff. The good regs can lose a fortune through leaks in this latter area allowing the medicore regs like me to close the gap between our winrates.

I also think that too many regs want so much to be that aggro hardass TAG playing, say, 25/23, 10% 3b, owning in 3b pots etc., that they end up owning themselves all day long. I think for most of these normal grinders at 200NL and below 18/15 would bring in more bacon if grinding and monies are your aim. I remember a video instructor (I think it was Krantz) saying that some of the best winners are the quiet little TAGs you hardly notice and think you can run over but who are tight enough that their ranges are solid, thinking enough not to allow themselves be run-over by the other regs, have decent enough fundamentals that they can beat the rake and the fish, 3b/4b just enough that you are never sure etc...this basic approach is appealing to me more and more in the chaotic and ever changing games today.*

* York Notes: I am a rakeback whoring nit trying to justify my existence

Really good post.

The Snapper

TommyGunne wrote: »

Really good post.

+1:)

ianmc38

TommyGunne wrote: »

Really good post.

!

Exactly my thoughts on the current state of the games

MrPreachan

Try explain that to a Frenchman:D

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

The above is not true, nearly all players have an idea now about preflop handranges and basic maths.

Gone are the days when it seemed possible to believe that your opponent wasn't sure if an Ace played low as well as high, that a paired board meant their straight or flush wasn't the nuts, even whether a K was better than a Q.

There are still exploitable players, but very few clueless players.