online poker getting much tougher to beat

luckylucky

Those of us who have been playimg online for a good few years will notice how much tougher it's getting. Even the difference between now and say 6 months ago. Over the weekend I decided I wanted to play a bit more relaxed after a lot of recent swings that were doing my head in. I dropped right down and grinded some .5/1 plo over the weekend - it was beatable but not quite as soft as I thought it would be, then today I started up another few tables of .5/1 plo - after about 30 to 40 hands I noticed it was nearly all regs and between these 3 tables there was only one player I would have categorized as below-average. I mean this is friggin .5/1 plo - wtf :eek:. A couple of years ago any good player would be able to crush that game anytime - whereas now I ended up quitting the tables coz they were simply no good. I'm left scratching my head tbh - I mean I'm basically playing plo coz I reckon it's the softest game on the net. NL had already gotten full of regs, most of whom are at least semi-good. Sngs I've noticed have toughened up a helluva lot also in the last year. I think just about every winning players ROI% in the $200+ games has dropped.

I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to go 100% pro now. Especially as the only juicy games are on in the evenings and weekends (even then not as juicy as they used to be.)

Anyway.... thoughts?

NickyOD

Training sites are to blame imo.

Any player that has been online for 3-4 years should still be crushing 1-2 at least though. If not they should give up. I think the problem at the moment is there is so much info on how to play well available on the net that players who started maybe only a year ago catch up to the more expereinced regs a lot quicker.

El Stuntman

any thoughts on the rise of bots as another factor helping to kill off online games?

digiman

Or those shortstacking rodents, they are destroying the games I think. I posted up a screenshot in BBV a while back were there were 5 shortstacks at my table. The other thing about them too is that they are taking up spaces on the Waiting Lists all the time as well which is really annoying. Big problem on ipoker atm, PokerStars isn't so bad.

luckylucky

NickyOD wrote: »

Training sites are to blame imo.

Any player that has been online for 3-4 years should still be crushing 1-2 at least though. If not they should give up. I think the problem at the moment is there is so much info on how to play well available on the net that players who started maybe only a year ago catch up to the more expereinced regs a lot quicker.

Training sites have had a big impact alright no doubt, maybe I need to use one myself

I'd say very few(if any) are crushing games at any medium level or higher tbh. I don't play NL these days, the last times I played it - it was mostly around the 2/4 level - it was full of tough regs then and I thought fk it - they are easier options than this. I can't imagine that 1/2 NL is going to be hugely softer than 2/4. Perhaps still quite beatable but crushable is another matter.

El Stuntman wrote: »

any thoughts on the rise of bots as another factor helping to kill off online games?

I don't know enough about this but I'd imagine it could well be a factor.

ianmc38

While the games have obviously gotten alot tougher, they are still extremely soft at lower stakes. I'm just after returning from a 5 month break from poker and I started off playing some smaller stake games (.50/1 and 1/2) to get back into the groove. I genuinely think that if a player cannot crush small stakes after a few years playing that long term they have almost no chance of ever beating mid stakes games.

Sure the games are getting tougher, but a good player can adapt. The regulars in those games have loads of massive leaks. It's all about exploiting them. Ask yourself what mistakes they are making and what you can do to take advantage of it. Game select better. Spread your action across multiple sites. Try a new game. Even better, hire a coach. This is imo the only way for you to actually improve. Pay the money to have someone really good analyse your game and find out your own leaks. I think this will be a real wake up call and imo a sound investment. I think training sites are overrated. They're good for the fundamentals, but watching videos by someone like CTS or SBrugby or OMGClayAiken or whoever isn't going to suddenly give you their poker abilities.

Ultimately, there are still lots of people in the poker world making lots of money. I was a little worried when I came back from my break that the games would be really really tough. I've found almost the opposite. Games are still great and I'm super positive about playing at the moment.

Gl with whatever route you take!

El Stuntman

El Stuntman wrote: »

any thoughts on the rise of bots as another factor helping to kill off online games?

digiman wrote: »

Or those shortstacking rodents, they are destroying the games I think.

are they not the same thing?

digiman

El Stuntman wrote: »

are they not the same thing?

Could well be.

pkaces

digiman wrote: »

Or those shortstacking rodents, they are destroying the games I think. I posted up a screenshot in BBV a while back were there were 5 shortstacks at my table. The other thing about them too is that they are taking up spaces on the Waiting Lists all the time as well which is really annoying. Big problem on ipoker atm, PokerStars isn't so bad.

I agree, I don 't know about the mid stakes but at the micro stakes this is a real pain in the ass. They just ship it , double up and leave

RoadSweeper

TBH, I find spreading my roll across 3-4 sites a massive bonus. I only have 3-6 tables open at a time. I play from .5/1 to 5/10 depending where the games are. I've sat with fish on 8max and 10 max tables. I'm not grinding anymore, but just constantly isoloating the weaker players at the table.

My table selection had increased my win rate so much. If i'm not happy with a table, I wont play till I find another table, I actively look across the sites for another table. The new HM table scanner lets be scan stars and ipoker at the same time, and I also play on 2 other european sites. I find I can play at any time during the day/night as a result

I dont play yamaha, but i'd imaging the games are still v soft. I've sat in for a laugh a few times and judging by stacks, there wernet regs, but by no means ss.

NickyOD

digiman wrote: »

Or those shortstacking rodents, they are destroying the games I think. I posted up a screenshot in BBV a while back were there were 5 shortstacks at my table. The other thing about them too is that they are taking up spaces on the Waiting Lists all the time as well which is really annoying. Big problem on ipoker atm, PokerStars isn't so bad.

Surely all short stackers at low to medium stakes are losers anyway. That's not bad for the game at all.

Dave147

I find PLO has gotten an awful lot tougher in the last year, I used be able to beat 2/4 on ladbrokes consistently and crush the lower stakes.. Even playing .10/.25 on Pokerstars has gotten harder whereas I could win 5 buy-ins in an hour before. I still find $10 MTT's and SnG's very soft but the beats are horrendous.

NickyOD

ianmc38 wrote: »

I think training sites are overrated. They're good for the fundamentals, but watching videos by someone like CTS or SBrugby or OMGClayAiken or whoever isn't going to suddenly give you their poker abilities.

I would agree that a training site is not going to get you to higher stakes without already having plenty of ability and talent, but the whole concept of training players has woken relative newcomers up to the fact that they need HM and coaching to improve, thus bringing them to a level where they're playing 21/18 or whatever and are much harder to exract money from. Without the training sites there would be soooooo much more dead money at all stakes up 3/6.

I met some guys at a party a couple of weeks ago who I had played against once or twice in the local cardroom. They are probably above average live players for that kind of club. Would have a reasonable grasp of the game for an intelligent player playing a year live.

Then I learned then that they had all been playing on line for as long as I have (6 or 7 years) but didn't use HM or Pokertracker, didn't read the forums, had no clue about getting rakeback deals and I'm sure had no notion whatsoever about the possibility of getting coaching.

I then overheard them discussing a hand where one guy 4-bet folded Jacks and they all agreed they would have done the same thing!!!

Players like this are ****ing great for online poker. Leave them to it. Don't ****ing teach them!!!

copperhead

i agree online cash games are dying
seems every table at lower levels are full
of grinders, its very rare more than 2 people see flop
and min and standard raises getting through at .5/.10 come on

KashMachine

How are you going to make the 250K playing .50/1??

ianmc38 wrote: »

While the games have obviously gotten alot tougher, they are still extremely soft at lower stakes. I'm just after returning from a 5 month break from poker and I started off playing some smaller stake games (.50/1 and 1/2) to get back into the groove. I genuinely think that if a player cannot crush small stakes after a few years playing that long term they have almost no chance of ever beating mid stakes games.

Sure the games are getting tougher, but a good player can adapt. The regulars in those games have loads of massive leaks. It's all about exploiting them. Ask yourself what mistakes they are making and what you can do to take advantage of it. Game select better. Spread your action across multiple sites. Try a new game. Even better, hire a coach. This is imo the only way for you to actually improve. Pay the money to have someone really good analyse your game and find out your own leaks. I think this will be a real wake up call and imo a sound investment. I think training sites are overrated. They're good for the fundamentals, but watching videos by someone like CTS or SBrugby or OMGClayAiken or whoever isn't going to suddenly give you their poker abilities.

Ultimately, there are still lots of people in the poker world making lots of money. I was a little worried when I came back from my break that the games would be really really tough. I've found almost the opposite. Games are still great and I'm super positive about playing at the moment.

Gl with whatever route you take!

digiman

NickyOD wrote: »

Surely all short stackers at low to medium stakes are losers anyway. That's not bad for the game at all.

What makes you say this?

RoadSweeper

Shortstacker sare usually marginal winneres or losers, but get a **** load of bonus or rake.

cooker3

I pretty much agree with Ian. While sure the games are tougher I think it's somewhat pointless thinking how easy they once were. Over that time I have moved up so I just take the increase in standard as part of the course.

People way over-rate regs. Simply put, just because people are regs doesn't mean they are particularly good. Sure they are not as easy to beat as some 40/4 drooler but they are exploitable, it just requires some work.

I think there is a certain arrogance to just assume you should be able to beat certain levels. You really think winning money like this should comes easy?
What have you done to improve your game, have you been talking to good players? Have you been reviewing hands? Have you been posting hands on forums. Ask yourself do you really deserve to win?

cooker3

Btw if anyone wants to learn more optimal strategy against short stackers download stox ev and start playing around with it.

ianmc38

look at imsachoochoo on 2+2. He's had 50k months shortstacking IIRC.

KashMachine I just started back after 5 months without playing/looking at a hand of online poker. Obviously sitting into a 5/10 or 10/20 game would be a bad idea. A few k hands of .50/1 and 1/2 helped to get reacquainted. Now I'm back playing MSNL as before. Calendar year will have to be March 09-March 2010 though

luckylucky

cooker3 wrote: »

I pretty much agree with Ian. While sure the games are tougher I think it's somewhat pointless thinking how easy they once were. Over that time I have moved up so I just take the increase in standard as part of the course.

People way over-rate regs. Simply put, just because people are regs doesn't mean they are particularly good. Sure they are not as easy to beat as some 40/4 drooler but they are exploitable, it just requires some work.

I think there is a certain arrogance to just assume you should be able to beat certain levels. You really think winning money like this should comes easy?
What have you done to improve your game, have you been talking to good players? Have you been reviewing hands? Have you been posting hands on forums. Ask yourself do you really deserve to win?

A lot of regs are good though, that's why they are regs. Some are better than others and occasionally some are awful. Well I dunno who the arrogant line is aimed at if anyone... All I can say for myself is that I'm certainly not being arrogant- if anything I'm thinking I can no longer assume I can just hop into a game at low stakes and expect to have it easy - a couple of years ago I could have done.

I do agree with you that one should not be complacent and just coz you have been playing for long time online there's always stuff to improve. I seriously might go for some coaching at some point.

I think Roadsweeper's point about playing across several sites and playing levels from .5/1 right through to 5/10 having the criteria that the table is soft as the main one is a real good idea.

KashMachine

i hope u can pull it off mate! btw, any chance of some coaching. i'm serious?
:cool:

ianmc38 wrote: »

look at imsachoochoo on 2+2. He's had 50k months shortstacking IIRC.

KashMachine I just started back after 5 months without playing/looking at a hand of online poker. Obviously sitting into a 5/10 or 10/20 game would be a bad idea. A few k hands of .50/1 and 1/2 helped to get reacquainted. Now I'm back playing MSNL as before. Calendar year will have to be March 09-March 2010 though

cooker3

luckylucky wrote: »

A lot of regs are good though, that's why they are regs. Some are better than others and occasionally some are awful. Well I dunno who the arrogant line is aimed at if anyone... All I can say for myself is that I'm certainly not being arrogant- if anything I'm thinking I can no longer assume I can just hop into a game at low stakes and expect to have it easy - a couple of years ago I could have done.

I do agree with you that one should not be complacent and just coz you have been playing for long time online there's always stuff to improve. I seriously might go for some coaching at some point.

I think Roadsweeper's point about playing across several sites and playing levels from .5/1 right through to 5/10 having the criteria that the table is soft as the main one is a real good idea.

The arrogance comment wasn't aimed at you in particular. It was just a general comment.

As for regs. I agree there is a spectrum of quality in play. My point being a lot of the time people just automatically think regs = good and complain that a table maybe full of regs well in fact it could still be a profitable table.
It's similar when people complain about playing on a table full of nits. Nits are great to play against. If you can't beat a table full of nits then you have serious problems yet how often do you hear people complain about a table with them on it? Now if you can find a bunch of tables with absolute droolers on them then yeah you want to play those tables first but if they are not there then still money to be made.

I just think in general for a lot of people. They learn poker and all about position and what hands to open and such like. They figure out how to beat your average live passive donk etc but that's it. They don't progress and never think about how they would go about beating themselves and a table full of their clones and don't know how to overcome that.

HiCloy

So if games are much harder now, what sort of win rates do ye think are achieveable? Not for the best guy, say for the 80th percentile of all winners, at different levels?

sickpuppy

WEll the widespread use of datamning poker tracking and buddy lists etc is detrimental to the overall game.
A REAL FISH SITS IN AND 20 guys awacs turns red and they fly in to relieve him of his money straight away he is a fish and has no chance.

Rake races are another killer guys can 16 table at slight profit or loss and still make money as cooker said they might be profitable as surely they have leaks but there no real value.

Most recreational players play for fun when they get cleaned out quickly its no fun so they will stop playing tehrefore alot of the easy money will be gone.

Also this recession which may not be as bad as in other countries is affecting peoples spending power been in the fitz last week and 2 of 3 night no omaha its gone very quiet games are slowing down big time.

Stuff like datamining should be banned your killing the golden goose that lays teh eggs instead of collecting them

digiman

HiCloy wrote: »

So if games are much harder now, what sort of win rates do ye think are achieveable? Not for the best guy, say for the 80th percentile of all winners, at different levels?

I would say 1-2BB/100 would be pretty ok from 1/2 and above.

DeadMoney

luckylucky wrote: »

Those of us who have been playimg online for a good few years will notice how much tougher it's getting. Even the difference between now and say 6 months ago. Over the weekend I decided I wanted to play a bit more relaxed after a lot of recent swings that were doing my head in. I dropped right down and grinded some .5/1 plo over the weekend - it was beatable but not quite as soft as I thought it would be, then today I started up another few tables of .5/1 plo - after about 30 to 40 hands I noticed it was nearly all regs and between these 3 tables there was only one player I would have categorized as below-average. I mean this is friggin .5/1 plo - wtf :eek:. A couple of years ago any good player would be able to crush that game anytime - whereas now I ended up quitting the tables coz they were simply no good. I'm left scratching my head tbh - I mean I'm basically playing plo coz I reckon it's the softest game on the net. NL had already gotten full of regs, most of whom are at least semi-good. Sngs I've noticed have toughened up a helluva lot also in the last year. I think just about every winning players ROI% in the $200+ games has dropped.

I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to go 100% pro now. Especially as the only juicy games are on in the evenings and weekends (even then not as juicy as they used to be.)

Anyway.... thoughts?

I hate reading these posts about how much harder the games have gotten. Everybody knows that the games are getting tougher, and they are certainly way tougher than they were a few years ago. I have only been playing cash games about 9 months and I have been getting coaching over the last 5 months. I never played the games back the in the "good old days" so I can't really relate when people talk about the differences. In a way this was good for me as I have been developing my play according to the current nature of the games instead of having to adjust my old playing style. What I am trying to say is that with the help of a coach and cardrunners, I am learning what is required to beat the "current" state of low-mid stakes games. A lot of players that used to be winning regs at mid stakes and now complain about how tough 100nl is should concentrate on updating their strategies rather than complain about how unbeatable online poker now is.

I don't mean to sound arrogant or anything and I am not claiming to be god's gift to poker but I just hate the pessimistic view that some people have towards the current state of online games. So many people now playing mid stakes are being coached and most of them will be cardrunners, stoxpoker members etc. If you are struggling with the nuances of the limits that you are playing, then hire a coach to help you. It sucks and all that it is way tougher now than it once was but certain games are still very exploitable and it is up to you to learn to beat them. If I can beat 200nl and have only been playing cash games a few months then the games are certainly well beatable.

cooker3

sickpuppy wrote: »

Rake races are another killer guys can 16 table at slight profit or loss and still make money as cooker said they might be profitable as surely they have leaks but there no real value.

But here in lies the point. If they do have leaks then yes there is value. It's up to you to figure out what to do about it. Now the leaks they have maybe harder to spot then say someone who calls 60% pf the hands but it's really no different just a bit harder.

Also guys who 16 table are there for the taken as they will never adjust and you can just own them so much.

luckylucky

DeadMoney wrote: »

I hate reading these posts about how much harder the games have gotten. Everybody knows that the games are getting tougher, and they are certainly way tougher than they were a few years ago. I have only been playing cash games about 9 months and I have been getting coaching over the last 5 months. I never played the games back the in the "good old days" so I can't really relate when people talk about the differences. In a way this was good for me as I have been developing my play according to the current nature of the games instead of having to adjust my old playing style. What I am trying to say is that with the help of a coach and cardrunners, I am learning what is required to beat the "current" state of low-mid stakes games. A lot of players that used to be winning regs at mid stakes and now complain about how tough 100nl is should concentrate on updating their strategies rather than complain about how unbeatable online poker now is.

I don't mean to sound arrogant or anything and I am not claiming to be god's gift to poker but I just hate the pessimistic view that some people have towards the current state of online games. So many people now playing mid stakes are being coached and most of them will be cardrunners, stoxpoker members etc. If you are struggling with the nuances of the limits that you are playing, then hire a coach to help you. It sucks and all that it is way tougher now than it once was but certain games are still very exploitable and it is up to you to learn to beat them. If I can beat 200nl and have only been playing cash games a few months then the games are certainly well beatable.

Fair enough points. But alas I am 'old school' online player as are others here. Guess some of us have been getting too complacent, well me anyway. I have to start looking into some coaching and some cardrunners type stuff.

Also my post wasn't meant to be a moan. It came about from another post where a guy who used to play a few years ago was thinking about getting back into poker seriously so I was just thinking about the differences between now and then. It doesn't affect you obviously as you weren't around then, but it doesn't mean the post isn't relevant to some of us here. Also was interested in other peoples points of views and see how they are adjusting, got some good advice here. So yeah it's boring and irrelevant for you, but not for me.

DeadMoney

luckylucky wrote: »

Fair enough points. But alas I am 'old school' online player as are others here. Guess some of us have been getting too complacent, well me anyway. I have to start looking into some coaching and some cardrunners type stuff.

Also my post wasn't meant to be a moan. It came about from another post where a guy who used to play a few years ago was thinking about getting back into poker seriously so I was just thinking about the differences between now and then. It doesn't affect you obviously as you weren't around then, but it doesn't mean the post isn't relevant to some of us here. Also was interested in other peoples points of views and see how they are adjusting, got some good advice here. So yeah it's boring and irrelevant for you, but not for me.

Point taken. GL with the games!

RoadSweeper

luckylucky wrote: »

Fair enough points. But alas I am 'old school' online player as are others here. Guess some of us have been getting too complacent, well me anyway. I have to start looking into some coaching and some cardrunners type stuff.

Cardrunners sux these days