Cardio - fill me in

Hanley

I've decided my cardio needs to come up, and weight needs to come down. See here - http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59998326&postcount=1286 I've 8 weeks off from work with nothing to do but study and train, so it's the perfect time to get a bit done.

But this sucks for 3 reasons.
1) Mass moves mass and I'm having great fun shifting big weights at 109kg.
2) I'm 109kg so running sucks.
3) I LOVE chocolate. I'm actually in love with it. Even my girlfriend's called Malteaser on here. I could quite happily each chocolate all day everyday.

With that in mind, I'm trying to come up some ways of upping my cardio capabilities. The measures I plan on using are;

1) Time over the 2km route mentioned in my log
2) Time over half a football pitch
3) Time over a full pitch
4) Time around a pitch
5) Shuttle run the length of a pitch

I don't think I've any need to run > 2km, I don't see the point. I plan on retesting all the above every 2 weeks or so. I'm hoping to get my 2km time down to < 10 mins (or at least 1km in 5 mins).

Anyone got any suggestions on how to get the best returns from the above plan? Or alternate suggestions????

celestial

Is...this....really....you.....?? I know there has been a spate of account hijackings on here lately.....hello?



Coincidentally, I am kicking off a cardio buzz starting from today. I have been tipping away at a few casual runs of late, but really want to get the cardio fitness up to a good solid level and burn off some fat while cutting some carbs.

I would defo knock the chocolate on the head man! I know that I can't really feel serious about what I want to achieve unless my diet is as close to 100% as possible. I would say limit yourself to 1 piece of choc per week. The weight will fall off ya. Back in early Jan I said I would give up all take-aways and junk food and eat only Weetabix for breakfast - by the second week in Feb I could see a visible difference in the abs (as in I could see them better!) and I know it was all down to diet cos my training didn't really change.

So that's food. As regards the cardio itself, just start off nice and easy. Even get in a few long walks to start off. You could then move onto cycling/cross-trainer in the gym. Then ease yourself into the running. I say this cos running is fairly hard on the joints and I know when I haven't done it in a while I can find it hard on the shins (even with good runners).

That said, it's all down to the individual at the end of the day. If you really do want to just start off running, what about couch to 5k (in your case modify to make it maybe couch to 2 or 3k).

My programme is gonna be max 5k runs 4-5 times a week for 5 weeks (alternating fast runs with longer rest periods with longer runs with fewer or no rest periods).

brutusthebarber

Hanley wrote: »

But this sucks for 3 reasons.
1) Mass moves mass and I'm having great fun shifting big weights at 109kg.
2) I'm 109kg so running sucks.
3) I LOVE chocolate. I'm actually in love with it. Even my girlfriend's called Malteaser on here. I could quite happily each chocolate all day everyday.

With that in mind, I'm trying to come up some ways of upping my cardio capabilities. The measures I plan on using are;

1) Time over the 2km route mentioned in my log
2) Time over half a football pitch
3) Time over a full pitch
4) Time around a pitch
5) Shuttle run the length of a pitch

I don't think I've any need to run > 2km, I don't see the point. I plan on retesting all the above every 2 weeks or so. I'm hoping to get my 2km time down to < 10 mins (or at least 1km in 5 mins).

Anyone got any suggestions on how to get the best returns from the above plan? Or alternate suggestions????

I'd say to get the best returns you could split them up into 4 sessions (2 per week). For instance;

wk 1 Day 1: 2km route
wk 1 Day 2: Do 3 and 4 above.

wk 2 Day 1: 2km route
wk 2 Day 2: 2 and 5

The idea would be to keep the long runs to one day and work on the short sprints another day.

One thing you could add into the training:

Set up 3 markers on either side of the pitch. Start the run at one corner so the first thing your doing is running the width of the pitch, when you turn on to the length of the pitch, the first marker you run to 50% of your full pace, 2nd run to 75%, 3rd sprint to the end. When you hit the corner do a slow jog/walk to the next corner and then repeat the sequence. When you hit the end of that side, that is one lap completed.

I find this a good way of working on sprints and also building up endurance.

Fair play for starting the cardio, your log is seriously impressive.

Hope this helps.

Colm_OReilly

We do something like cardio that we call "metcons" Hanley, maybe you should do a few of those?

Joking aside, maybe pick a few short, heavy metcons from CF.ie or even CrossFitFootball.com and see if you likes em.

aoa321

One of the moderators had better tell Hanley that somebody has discovered his password and is using his profile to start really weird threads on here !!

Hanley

celestial wrote: »

Is...this....really....you.....?? I know there has been a spate of account hijackings on here lately.....hello?

I was, and still am expecting replies like - "BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"

Coincidentally, I am kicking off a cardio buzz starting from today. I have been tipping away at a few casual runs of late, but really want to get the cardio fitness up to a good solid level and burn off some fat while cutting some carbs.

I would defo knock the chocolate on the head man! I know that I can't really feel serious about what I want to achieve unless my diet is as close to 100% as possible. I would say limit yourself to 1 piece of choc per week. The weight will fall off ya. Back in early Jan I said I would give up all take-aways and junk food and eat only Weetabix for breakfast - by the second week in Feb I could see a visible difference in the abs (as in I could see them better!) and I know it was all down to diet cos my training didn't really change.

So that's food. As regards the cardio itself, just start off nice and easy. Even get in a few long walks to start off. You could then move onto cycling/cross-trainer in the gym. Then ease yourself into the running. I say this cos running is fairly hard on the joints and I know when I haven't done it in a while I can find it hard on the shins (even with good runners).

That said, it's all down to the individual at the end of the day. If you really do want to just start off running, what about couch to 5k (in your case modify to make it maybe couch to 2 or 3k).

My programme is gonna be max 5k runs 4-5 times a week for 5 weeks (alternating fast runs with longer rest periods with longer runs with fewer or no rest periods).

The diet's not really an issue thankfully. Once I decide I'm eating every 3 hours and not eating chocoloate it's actually quite easy. The incremental steps are what kills me!! Loosely, I'll be going with about 12kcal per lb split over 50% protein and 25% carbs and fat. Subject to change down the road as I may take on a carb cycling approach.

There's no way I'm doing cardio in the gym. I'd rather bathe in acid. If I was going to do it, it'd be a spin class or something. The reason I like the 2km and sprints is because it's something I can set PR's on, and while it's cardio enough to get my heart in shape, it's not endless hours of plodding along. It's fast, ugly and hard. Just as I like!!!

I can swing the 2km so it's pretty much entirely on grass, so my joints should be ok. My lower back tightened up a bit today, but that's just cos it's not used to moving!!

I'mma take some measurements later too. The ones I'll be focusing on are my suprailliac (or whatever the spelling is) skinfold, and waist measurement.

Hanley

brutusthebarber wrote: »

I'd say to get the best returns you could split them up into 4 sessions (2 per week). For instance;

wk 1 Day 1: 2km route
wk 1 Day 2: Do 3 and 4 above.

wk 2 Day 1: 2km route
wk 2 Day 2: 2 and 5

The idea would be to keep the long runs to one day and work on the short sprints another day.

One thing you could add into the training:

Set up 3 markers on either side of the pitch. Start the run at one corner so the first thing your doing is running the width of the pitch, when you turn on to the length of the pitch, the first marker you run to 50% of your full pace, 2nd run to 75%, 3rd sprint to the end. When you hit the corner do a slow jog/walk to the next corner and then repeat the sequence. When you hit the end of that side, that is one lap completed.

I find this a good way of working on sprints and also building up endurance.

Fair play for starting the cardio, your log is seriously impressive.

Hope this helps.

Thanks man. I will be splitting it up, just not sure how!! I'm not even 100% sure I'll use those measures as part of my training all the time either. But I will use em to track progress. The immediate training runs for this week in my mind are 20 hill sprints on one day, 2 laps of the park (4km) at whatever pace on another, and then one or two more conditioning workouts of some sort!!

I remember all those disgusting drills from my soccer playing days. We used to run shuttles the entire length of the pitch, cones at 20m, 40m, 60m, 80m and then the touchline was one run!!

My favourite was always the penalty box drill. A cone was set between the penalty spot and the 6 yard box, you start in the middle sprint to a corner, run the length of that line, hit another corner, back to the middle and repeat til you get all 4 corners of the box. Was short but brutal. Pretty much everyone on the team would have to race each other during a session. It was fugly.

celestial

Hanley wrote: »

I was, and still am expecting replies like - "BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"



The diet's not really an issue thankfully. Once I decide I'm eating every 3 hours and not eating chocoloate it's actually quite easy. The incremental steps are what kills me!! Loosely, I'll be going with about 12kcal per lb split over 50% protein and 25% carbs and fat. Subject to change down the road as I may take on a carb cycling approach.

There's no way I'm doing cardio in the gym. I'd rather bathe in acid. If I was going to do it, it'd be a spin class or something. The reason I like the 2km and sprints is because it's something I can set PR's on, and while it's cardio enough to get my heart in shape, it's not endless hours of plodding along. It's fast, ugly and hard. Just as I like!!!

I can swing the 2km so it's pretty much entirely on grass, so my joints should be ok. My lower back tightened up a bit today, but that's just cos it's not used to moving!!

I'mma take some measurements later too. The ones I'll be focusing on are my suprailliac (or whatever the spelling is) skinfold, and waist measurement.

Sounds good. Yeah, I hear ya on the gym cardio. I haven't been on a treadmill in months! The running I was doing was down in a park - really enjoyable when the weather is nice. That said I ran in the rain another day, which was great too! Either way it's preferable to the treadmill! Either grass or sand works best alright.

Hanley

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

We do something like cardio that we call "metcons" Hanley, maybe you should do a few of those?

Joking aside, maybe pick a few short, heavy metcons from CF.ie or even CrossFitFootball.com and see if you likes em.

Haha touché. I need to do some of them in prep for your little fun day too!! I was hoping to do all the cardio stuff away from the gym tho, mainly because i don't like making the 25 minute trip each way when there's a lovely park literally <50 meters from my door!!

aoa321 wrote: »

One of the moderators had better tell Hanley that somebody has discovered his password and is using his profile to start really weird threads on here !!

Hahahaha THAT'S the sort of post I was expecting

aye

Hanley wrote: »

There's no way I'm doing cardio in the gym. I'd rather bathe in acid. If I was going to do it, it'd be a spin class or something. The reason I like the 2km and sprints is because it's something I can set PR's on, and while it's cardio enough to get my heart in shape, it's not endless hours of plodding along. It's fast, ugly and hard. Just as I like!!!

+1!!

you can always add in other aerobic and anaerobic exercises too, to make it more interesting.

jumping jack, strides, side shuttles, skipping, squat jumps, power lunges, squat thrusts, burpees, mountain climbers, quick feet, single leg bounding etc.

these will get the heart in shape too, and maybe help keep the interest up so its not just running you do.
power lunges are tough, but should help with the spinting times as they hit the hip flexors and hamstrings.

Killme00

Hanley wrote: »

There's no way I'm doing cardio in the gym. I'd rather bathe in acid.

Suck it up. For someone of your bodyshape :pac:, i cannot recommend the rower highly enough. Its great for HIT and really burns off the cals and stills gives the musculs a bit of burn.

Also, spin class is addicitive stuff..be carefull you dont get hooked.

Oh and keep up the running, just be careful of the joints with 109kgs pounding the pavement.

brutusthebarber

Hanley wrote: »

Thanks man. I will be splitting it up, just not sure how!! I'm not even 100% sure I'll use those measures as part of my training all the time either. But I will use em to track progress. The immediate training runs for this week in my mind are 20 hill sprints on one day, 2 laps of the park (4km) at whatever pace on another, and then one or two more conditioning workouts of some sort!!

I remember all those disgusting drills from my soccer playing days. We used to run shuttles the entire length of the pitch, cones at 20m, 40m, 60m, 80m and then the touchline was one run!!

My favourite was always the penalty box drill. A cone was set between the penalty spot and the 6 yard box, you start in the middle sprint to a corner, run the length of that line, hit another corner, back to the middle and repeat til you get all 4 corners of the box. Was short but brutal. Pretty much everyone on the team would have to race each other during a session. It was fugly.

They are horrible alright but do they get the fitness levels up. Every Tuesday training the footballs were put away and the cones came out. Brutal!

I never did the penalty box one it sounds dog rough. We had a thing called the "3 Laps". Markers were set up around the park. You'd run the perimeter of the park and each marker was a sprint to the next one. At the start of the second lap the jog went out the window you were practically doing half - full pace the entire thing. It was a fuppin backstard.

The hill sprints are tough too. I found the best conditioning work to be small shuttles, 3 cones and just change what you do each time. I'm sure you remember the shuttles.:)

OT How do you reckon doing the sprint/endurance work will fit in or around your weights.??

rubadub

At your weight I would be cycling or swimming. Cycling in dublin is a no brainer for me now. It is quicker to go most places on a bike than driving or public transport. You can also go places on a mission, e.g. I would go to a butchers once a week to get my chicken fillets cheap, or to a library to pick up dvds, or town to get concert tickets without paying online fees! I do not like "aimless" cardio. Though I would cycle scenic rountes along the coast.

For chocolate you could try lindt high % cocoa stuff, it is hard to eat a lot as it is so strong. IIRC you have unflavoured whey, you could get sugar free flavouring for it, dunno what this tastes like but is on offer
http://www.myprotein.co.uk/products/flavouring-systems/mp-flavouring-(smooth-chocolate)/

Have you considered high rep resistance exercise at all? there are a few big guys I have seen on sites who claim to only do BW exercise, a load of BW squats & pushups will certainly get your heart racing.

Vegeta

Hanley wrote: »

The diet's not really an issue thankfully. Once I decide I'm eating every 3 hours and not eating chocoloate it's actually quite easy. The incremental steps are what kills me!! Loosely, I'll be going with about 12kcal per lb split over 50% protein and 25% carbs and fat. Subject to change down the road as I may take on a carb cycling approach.

There's no way I'm doing cardio in the gym. I'd rather bathe in acid. If I was going to do it, it'd be a spin class or something. The reason I like the 2km and sprints is because it's something I can set PR's on, and while it's cardio enough to get my heart in shape, it's not endless hours of plodding along. It's fast, ugly and hard. Just as I like!!!

I can swing the 2km so it's pretty much entirely on grass, so my joints should be ok. My lower back tightened up a bit today, but that's just cos it's not used to moving!!

I'mma take some measurements later too. The ones I'll be focusing on are my suprailliac (or whatever the spelling is) skinfold, and waist measurement.

I'd say you have it nailed dude

Cleaning up diet
Working hard as always
recording sessions and aiming for PBs
Tracking progress and adjusting as needed

Cant see you having any issues tbh just try and stay injury free I suppose.

Hanley

aye wrote: »

+1!!

you can always add in other aerobic and anaerobic exercises too, to make it more interesting.

jumping jack, strides, side shuttles, skipping, squat jumps, power lunges, squat thrusts, burpees, mountain climbers, quick feet, single leg bounding etc.

these will get the heart in shape too, and maybe help keep the interest up so its not just running you do.
power lunges are tough, but should help with the spinting times as they hit the hip flexors and hamstrings.

Ewww.... that could work tho. I don't really wanna go too mad on bodyweight stuff for the fear it'll impact my recovery when ti comes to lifting ya know???

Killme00 wrote: »

Suck it up. For someone of your bodyshape :pac:, i cannot recommend the rower highly enough. Its great for HIT and really burns off the cals and stills gives the musculs a bit of burn.

Also, spin class is addicitive stuff..be carefull you dont get hooked.

Oh and keep up the running, just be careful of the joints with 109kgs pounding the pavement.

I was thinking about the rower, but like I said, the gym's a no go for this really... So unless a C2 shows up at my door in the morning.....

All the running (well 80-90%) of it will be on grass so I expect that shouldn't be too hard on my joints?? And I won't be doing much long distance stuff anyway so that should help???

rubadub wrote: »

At your weight I would be cycling or swimming. Cycling in dublin is a no brainer for me now. It is quicker to go most places on a bike than driving or public transport. You can also go places on a mission, e.g. I would go to a butchers once a week to get my chicken fillets cheap, or to a library to pick up dvds, or town to get concert tickets without paying online fees! I do not like "aimless" cardio. Though I would cycle scenic rountes along the coast.

For chocolate you could try lindt high % cocoa stuff, it is hard to eat a lot as it is so strong. IIRC you have unflavoured whey, you could get sugar free flavouring for it, dunno what this tastes like but is on offer
http://www.myprotein.co.uk/products/flavouring-systems/mp-flavouring-(smooth-chocolate)/

Have you considered high rep resistance exercise at all? there are a few big guys I have seen on sites who claim to only do BW exercise, a load of BW squats & pushups will certainly get your heart racing.

I hate getting sweaty and hot when I've stuff to do! It's actually quite funny. If it's too warm in work or whereever I get really frustrated and angry and get nothing done!!

I need to get some protein but the thought of using any turns my stomach. I'm just not diggign the unflavoured stuff anymore. I'm thinking of getting some ON to try.

Wit the BW stuff, I'm a bit worried it'll impact recovery. I'll still be lifting hard so I don't want to hurt that if it can be avoided ya know??

Hanley

brutusthebarber wrote: »

They are horrible alright but do they get the fitness levels up. Every Tuesday training the footballs were put away and the cones came out. Brutal!

Hell day. I remember them well.

I never did the penalty box one it sounds dog rough. We had a thing called the "3 Laps". Markers were set up around the park. You'd run the perimeter of the park and each marker was a sprint to the next one. At the start of the second lap the jog went out the window you were practically doing half - full pace the entire thing. It was a fuppin backstard.

God do I remember those days. We used to go for a 30 minute runs around the area before starting our conditioning work. It SUCKED!!

The hill sprints are tough too. I found the best conditioning work to be small shuttles, 3 cones and just change what you do each time. I'm sure you remember the shuttles.:)

I try to forget them tbh. Another good option is to find a basketball court and run some suicides..... The short stuff was the worst.

OT How do you reckon doing the sprint/endurance work will fit in or around your weights.??

Dunno tbh. Hopefully it won't be too bad. I'll be looking after my diet a bit better as well so even tho I won't be eating as many kcals, they'll be of better quality and more frequently, which should help!!

Hanley

Vegeta wrote: »

I'd say you have it nailed dude

Cleaning up diet
Working hard as always
recording sessions and aiming for PBs
Tracking progress and adjusting as needed

Cant see you having any issues tbh just try and stay injury free I suppose.

Is it wrong that I don't see the point in any training unless it's to go after PR's???

Vegeta

Hanley wrote: »

Is it wrong that I don't see the point in any training unless it's to go after PR's???

Not at all.

the drifter

look hanley....if your trying to beat me to 90kg...dude give up im there already...you lost..face it:P:P

cardio,shoot me

damn drifter, i was waiting for the post in ur log! i thought it was taking a while

the drifter

am...it is in my log :)tut tut tut....

kevpants

Meant to post earlier but I got into work, read your log post, pissed my pants, and now I'm just back in work in a dry pair.

But enough about me.

Bahahahhahhahahaahhnhaaah.

Sorry I would post something helpful but these dudes clearly know more than me so I think I'll restrict my involvement to gentle ribbing.

Maybe a few sessions with Tooty Fruity in TF? Thrown on some spandex shorts and get blasting those buns! "Come on feel the pump! Lets do it now! If you don't do 5 more mins I'm going to slap you so hard! Slap slappy slap slap slap!"

aye

Hanley wrote: »

Ewww.... that could work tho. I don't really wanna go too mad on bodyweight stuff for the fear it'll impact my recovery when ti comes to lifting ya know???

making excuses already :rolleyes: lol.

The bodyweight stuff, if light, will pump blood to the muscle, aiding recovery. power lunges, squats jumps etc are explosive tho, so maybe not the day after squats

what way are you gonna work the cardio and lifting days?

bigstar

What about cycling. ditch the car/bus/dart and cycle to work/gym/chocolate shop. its good for the environment too you know!

spiral

Why not just do intervals on a rower ?
10 x 150 m , keep the 150 under 30s and rest 30s
Takes 10 mins ?

floggg

Hanley wrote: »

There's no way I'm doing cardio in the gym. I'd rather bathe in acid. If I was going to do it, it'd be a spin class or something.

LMAO at the thought of Hanley in a spiinning class! Can you fit on the bikes (mean that in a good way!)

celestial

If you are lifting along with doing regular cardio (which you are) then I would leave out bodyweight exercises.

You gonna add cardio entries to your log?! That'll be interesting (and strange:D)

I may start a log myself to record my cardio sessions.

amazingemmet

How about some fartlek, you basically self regulate your cardio session, ie jog for a bit then sprint for as long as you feel nesscary then jog etc aiming to keep your heart rate above 70% tis an easy no brainer kinda cardio

http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/news/article.asp?UAN=722

Hanley

bigstar wrote: »

What about cycling. ditch the car/bus/dart and cycle to work/gym/chocolate shop. its good for the environment too you know!

Cycling to work's a bit of a no go... I like my reading time on the bus!! Gym's wayyyyyy too far to cycle to. It takes 25 mins to drive like!!

spiral wrote: »

Why not just do intervals on a rower ?
10 x 150 m , keep the 150 under 30s and rest 30s
Takes 10 mins ?

I'm just not digging cardio in the gym!! I'm supposed to be studying like, so spending 50-60 minutes commuting to and from the gym wouldn't be worth it when I can just get out in the park a 30 second walk from my house and go nuts there ya know??

floggg wrote: »

LMAO at the thought of Hanley in a spiinning class! Can you fit on the bikes (mean that in a good way!)

I'd hope so!! I know most of the instructors in TF so if I did show up I'd get killed by em. I was playing on the recumbent's today with Malteaser, got mine up to like 175rpm and had the whole thing rocking from side to side. I was genuinely afraid I'd flip it over!!

celestial wrote: »

If you are lifting along with doing regular cardio (which you are) then I would leave out bodyweight exercises.

You gonna add cardio entries to your log?! That'll be interesting (and strange:D)

I may start a log myself to record my cardio sessions.

Yeah I'll be keeping it updated... Not always gonna be timing stuff or anything, but I'll document the work done!

amazingemmet wrote: »

How about some fartlek, you basically self regulate your cardio session, ie jog for a bit then sprint for as long as you feel nesscary then jog etc aiming to keep your heart rate above 70% tis an easy no brainer kinda cardio

http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/news/article.asp?UAN=722

Ah yes.... fartlek. I remember that from the days I used to be fit. Such a brutal concept. Cardio for dummy's, but not people who don't like pain!!

rubadub

Hanley wrote: »

Cycling to work's a bit of a no go... I like my reading time on the bus!! Gym's wayyyyyy too far to cycle to. It takes 25 mins to drive like!!

I commute in rush hour, takes 40-45mins to drive and 20min to cycle!
At least if you are reading it is not going to waste.

Hanley wrote: »

I'm just not digging cardio in the gym!! I'm supposed to be studying like, so spending 50-60 minutes commuting to and from the gym wouldn't be worth it when I can just get out in the park a 30 second walk from my house and go nuts there ya know??

Thing is I get ~45mins a day exercise commuting, it would take longer to drive. Now that means I have more spare time, I do not have to set aside time to exercise. 2 birds with the one stone. Maybe even park halfway or more to the gym, then run to the gym and run back to the car, or walk so as not to be sweating in the car on the way home.

But I find it far more satisfying to be cycling through traffic jams which would otherwise have me stressed to bits if I was driving.

cycle to work/gym/chocolate shop

I walk to the pub if I can! then ruin all my hard work...

Brian?

This is fairly simple but I like it.

There are 3 football pitches end on end near my house, jog down to them in 5mins. Sprint goal to goal on first pitch, walk to the halfway line on the 2nd pitch and jog down to the next goal and sprint full pitch again. Take a breather for 30secs or so, jog back to the start and repeat as many times as you can.

The simplicity of it is great, plus its easy to set goals for number of laps plus sprint time across the pitch lengths. When I start finding it too easy I'm going to throw in some push ups and chin ups on the goals for the craic.

--amadeus--

Do you want to get cardio fit or not?

Because a 2km run is over in what; 6 - 10 mins (depending on how fit and fast you are)? If someone came along and said "Hey, I want to get big but I'm not going to do any more than 2 reps" you'd laugh them out of teh gym. If you're going to do something you're as well to do it right and if you want to build cardio fitness that means putting time into it (be it running, rowing or cycling). I can't really see teh point of anything less than 30 mins, tbh. From teh little I kniow about crossfit it's the least time intensive way of getting fit and it needs more time than you are suggesting.

I would also strongly recommend against your idea of training almost exclusively with sprint drills. At that level you'll be spending most of your time in teh Anaerobic and "red line" zones, when teh optimum cardio gains are in teh aerobic zone (roughly 70 - 80% of your Max HR) (linkie here)

Lastly training with sprint drills when you aren't used to it and particularly when you are heavy greatly increases teh risk of injury, no matter what surface you are running on. And it slows down recovery time - aerobic runs will have no impact on your other training, anaerobic probably will.

If you are serious about this then you need to approach it in teh same way you approach any other physical goal, with a realistic plan in place and commitment to it.

Hanley

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Do you want to get cardio fit or not?

Because a 2km run is over in what; 6 - 10 mins (depending on how fit and fast you are)? If someone came along and said "Hey, I want to get big but I'm not going to do any more than 2 reps" you'd laugh them out of teh gym. If you're going to do something you're as well to do it right and if you want to build cardio fitness that means putting time into it (be it running, rowing or cycling). I can't really see teh point of anything less than 30 mins, tbh. From teh little I kniow about crossfit it's the least time intensive way of getting fit and it needs more time than you are suggesting.

I would also strongly recommend against your idea of training almost exclusively with sprint drills. At that level you'll be spending most of your time in teh Anaerobic and "red line" zones, when teh optimum cardio gains are in teh aerobic zone (roughly 70 - 80% of your Max HR) (linkie here)

Lastly training with sprint drills when you aren't used to it and particularly when you are heavy greatly increases teh risk of injury, no matter what surface you are running on. And it slows down recovery time - aerobic runs will have no impact on your other training, anaerobic probably will.

If you are serious about this then you need to approach it in teh same way you approach any other physical goal, with a realistic plan in place and commitment to it.

Fair points. I didn't look at it that way... basically what I'm after if a bare minimum compotency level of CV ability. I've no interest in running prolonged distances or training to do so. I'm not knocking it, but it's not for me.

Maybe my post is the running equivalent of me saying "I wanna go to the gym and get in shape but not TOO huge"???

So ya reckon aerobic runs over a distance of say 3-5k 3x a week is a better way to go???

BossArky

Hanley wrote: »

Maybe my post is the running equivalent of me saying "I wanna go to the gym and get in shape but not TOO huge"???

Naa, it is more of a "My legs are grand. I want to get big arms and chest"

Did you see my post in your log about skipping?

celestial

lol yeah, I want to get fit, but not too fit !

Amadeus is making some great points there. At the end of the day we all have different standards and goals, but I don't think anyone can call themselves cardio-fit if they can't run for any longer than 15 minutes (i.e. ~2k) without having to stop to recover. This is why I was suggesting in my OP to start out easy, then work your way up 2k > 3k > 5k.

Cardio fit to me means being able to go out and run a minimum of 5k without any issues (and is my first cardio goal - I'm nearly there, I think

Also - don't forget that with powerlifting you already have anaerobic fitness. Being able to sprint fast for you prob doesn't mean all that much - it's more a given. What you are looking for is aerobic fitness (aka cardio fit). You want to build CV endurance, and you can't get that without training the right way for it.

--amadeus--

I'd broadly agree with Celestial, if you're able to sustain a 75ish% MHR effort for 15 - 30 mins then you're fit as far as most people are concerned.

As for teh actual program to get you there you've ruled out anything in teh gym or on a bike so that pretty much leaves either home based crossfit (others can give way better advice) or running. And I know that non-runners go bug eyed with boredom if they have to just go out and run (for some strange reason!) so maybe follow a specific training program, liek one from here. Some of them will be well below your level, some may be a bit above but with a variety of distances / intensities it should lift some of teh "oh no, I have to run today" feeling. Remember that just like lifting there is no point in doing teh same work at teh same intensity all teh time - you need to gradually increase it (in the case of running it's distance and intensity rather than reps and weight) which is why a program is so good, it'll guide you through in logical increments.

You already have all of teh theory from the gym, it's just a case of applying that in a new area. Keep it relaxed and at a conversational pace and you'll be grand.

[last minute thought] - have you considered boxing or martial arts?

cowzerp

Hanley, i could imagine you pounding a punch bag and shadow boxing etc,, would get you proper cardio fit and is way less boring than running etc,, 2 mins high intensity followed by 30 sec breaks and you will be flying!

Hanley

celestial wrote: »

lol yeah, I want to get fit, but not too fit !

Amadeus is making some great points there. At the end of the day we all have different standards and goals, but I don't think anyone can call themselves cardio-fit if they can't run for any longer than 15 minutes (i.e. ~2k) without having to stop to recover. This is why I was suggesting in my OP to start out easy, then work your way up 2k > 3k > 5k.

Well I did 2k in approx 13.40 my first time running in about 3 years, and it wasn't really all that much of a ball buster either. Felt pretty lame jogging at the speed I was going tbh.

I reckon if I'd of forced it I'd have done 4k in <30 mins, prolly less. Might try tomorrow and see.

Cardio fit to me means being able to go out and run a minimum of 5k without any issues (and is my first cardio goal - I'm nearly there, I think

Issues = stopping? Or do ya have a time in mind? I guess <30 mins would be good to aim for!

Also - don't forget that with powerlifting you already have anaerobic fitness. Being able to sprint fast for you prob doesn't mean all that much - it's more a given. What you are looking for is aerobic fitness (aka cardio fit). You want to build CV endurance, and you can't get that without training the right way for it.

Wouldn't REALLY say that to be honest... max intensity and power's fairly good, but repeating that can be a bit of an issue :S

Hanley

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I'd broadly agree with Celestial, if you're able to sustain a 75ish% MHR effort for 15 - 30 mins then you're fit as far as most people are concerned.

Is that 75%ish of 220-age??

As for teh actual program to get you there you've ruled out anything in teh gym or on a bike so that pretty much leaves either home based crossfit (others can give way better advice) or running. And I know that non-runners go bug eyed with boredom if they have to just go out and run (for some strange reason!) so maybe follow a specific training program, liek one from here. Some of them will be well below your level, some may be a bit above but with a variety of distances / intensities it should lift some of teh "oh no, I have to run today" feeling. Remember that just like lifting there is no point in doing teh same work at teh same intensity all teh time - you need to gradually increase it (in the case of running it's distance and intensity rather than reps and weight) which is why a program is so good, it'll guide you through in logical increments.

The running doesn't bother me once it's not for like an hour or two. There's a pretty nice route around the perimeter of my local park with little hills and twists which is approx 2k, so 1,2 or 3 laps of that wouldn't be the worst.

I COULD always structure it so that I'm doing one "quick" (lol!) day - a lap of the park as fast a possible, a medium day - 2 laps and a "just survive" day - 3 laps!! 2, 4 and 6km respectively. Would that work??

[last minute thought] - have you considered boxing or martial arts?

I don't really have the time or inclination to do it to be honest. The ONLY reason I'm doing any cardio is to undo some of the damage being 110kg does, and help with weight loss. Travelling to classes just isn't worth it for what I'm trying to achieve. I don't really have the time to do it either!

Thanks for the posts, they've been really helpful so far

Hanley

cowzerp wrote: »

Hanley, i could imagine you pounding a punch bag and shadow boxing etc,, would get you proper cardio fit and is way less boring than running etc,, 2 mins high intensity followed by 30 sec breaks and you will be flying!

I'd feel like a right plank, and probably hurt myself too!!! Plus it would mean going into Hercs to use the bag upstairs, and I'm not really arsed!


I must sound liek a right moan.... "I wanna get fit but I don't wanna go to the gym or do too much..."

cowzerp

Hanley wrote: »

I'd feel like a right plank, and probably hurt myself too!!! Plus it would mean going into Hercs to use the bag upstairs, and I'm not really arsed!


I must sound liek a right moan.... "I wanna get fit but I don't wanna go to the gym or do too much..."

Thats fair enough, i hate travelling to train, i do most my training before or after clients, what you could do is interval running-run to your max running speed for 1-2 mins followed by 1 min easy walk and repeat, you could do 6 of them making 18 mins and then do 12 mins steady jog to make up 30 mins, as you get fitter you could extend the time to 45 mins..

BrianD3

It sounds to me like a relatively low level of cardio fitness would suffice for your goals. A brisk walk outside a few days a week?

With the amount of muscle mass you're carrying I'd say you'd lose weight pretty quickly by reducing your calorie intake somewhat even if you never did any cardio. I have lost around 10% of my bodyweight in 2009 simply by not stuffing myself to the extent that I was in 2008. I think with powerlifting and lifting genrally it is easy to start thinking along the lines of "must stuff myself" and "I'll eat my way through that sticking point"

As regards health benefits - as with lifting the point at which you see health benefits is pretty low and the principle of diminishing returns kicks in after that. Eg a non lifter would gain a lot if he regularly deadlifted 100 kg and wouldn't gain that much more health benefits by building up to 250+ kg which could take years of effort. Likewise regular brisk walking would do a non cardio person a lot of good, you don't have to go running a marathon etc.

--amadeus--

Hanley wrote: »

Is that 75%ish of 220-age??

Yeah but thats a really really rough yardstick. If you can get access to a HRM to do a proper test it'd be far better - you'll need one to train to HR zones anyway. To be honest though that might be complicating things a bit much, I was just trying to show why sprint training wasn't right for your goals. If your longer runs are at a perceived effort of 75% of your max then you'll be more or less on teh money. Keep it conversational - if you couldn't hold a conversation while you're running then slow down because you're going too fast!

Hanley wrote: »

I COULD always structure it so that I'm doing one "quick" (lol!) day - a lap of the park as fast a possible, a medium day - 2 laps and a "just survive" day - 3 laps!! 2, 4 and 6km respectively. Would that work??

That's perfect for a starter program, the weekly time trials gives you something to aim for and measure improvements as well. Once you plateau on times you know it's time to move up a level.

Oner last thing - you mentioned feeling "lame" for your pace on teh last run. You were doing 11:30 min miles which (I won't lie!) isn't going to set a world record but is perfectly respectable for someone of your size (maintain that and it equates to a 70 min 10k or a sub 5 marathon, for example). And I know people who started off at that speed and now are aiming at running sub 3 marathons, everyone starts somewhere, it's just about being outside the comfort zone.

thirtyfoot

A session I use in early season for long sprinters in Oct or Nov is called 30/30. It works very much at improving your vVo2 max. Per http://www.brianmac.co.uk/vvo2max.htm vVo2 max -

"Running at vVO2max increases leg muscle strength and power, and enhanced strength tends to improve economy (muscle cells are stronger, fewer needed to run at a particular pace, thus the energy expenditure is lower). vVO2max effort boosts neuromuscular responsiveness and coordination which reduces energy expenditure."

"vVO2max is the minimal running velocity which produces VO2max i.e. causes your muscular system to utilise oxygen at its highest possible rate."

The 30/30 session is very simple. You run for 30 secs, then walk/jog for 30secs. You build it up gradually over the 4-8 week period. Start at maybe 10 reps, add 2-4 reps a week and continually build up. This is a very economic way of improving aerobic ability of someone who may be carrying muscle like a sprinter or yourself. Its similar to the fartlek mentioned but more structured.

This added to shorter power based stuff (4 x 40m at full tilt with full recovery) will help your half pitch efforts while stuff like 100-120-150m runs will give you an element of speed endurance.

Since it such a condensed timeframe it will be hard to know how it would work but a 3 day running program of short stuff (40-50m runs), medium stuff (100-150m) and then the aerobic stuff (30/30) might be an option.

eroo

Personally speaking... if I haven't done any cardio in a while I don't start straight off with sprints. My legs can be sore for days after an interval session. Don't know if the same happens for you though.

Plus, you will be DYING pretty quickly at 109kg and the fact you haven't done cardio in quite some time. Maybe a week or two of light running 3/4 times a week. That'd build a very small base to work off.. then introduce sprint work.

My 2c

Naos

Good advice on this thread, only started cardio myself yesterday morning

Doing a brief 5 min jog in phoenix park to warm up followed my sprints up the Popes Cross. Running up the hill not the steps as I found the hill tougher (it's steeper), although I'll inevitably have to do the Rocky thing at some stage

Going to give fartlek a go tomorrow. Quick question, would doing sprint training 5x a week be too much, Mon - Fri?

Or is that the equivilant of "I don't want to do weights as I don't want to be built like Arnie!".

Hanley

cowzerp wrote: »

Thats fair enough, i hate travelling to train, i do most my training before or after clients, what you could do is interval running-run to your max running speed for 1-2 mins followed by 1 min easy walk and repeat, you could do 6 of them making 18 mins and then do 12 mins steady jog to make up 30 mins, as you get fitter you could extend the time to 45 mins..

Sounds like cardio for dummies. Could be right up my street!! I might get a week or two of steady state stuff under my belt so my body knows what's going on and then give this a shot on one of the days.

BrianD3 wrote: »

It sounds to me like a relatively low level of cardio fitness would suffice for your goals. A brisk walk outside a few days a week?

Low level = good!!

With the amount of muscle mass you're carrying I'd say you'd lose weight pretty quickly by reducing your calorie intake somewhat even if you never did any cardio. I have lost around 10% of my bodyweight in 2009 simply by not stuffing myself to the extent that I was in 2008.

Oh yeah I have no doubt!! I tend to lose weight easily enough by controlling kcals and not having to worry about cardio. Buuuuut I notice myself out of breath quicker, which is no doubt attributable to the weight gain, so I'm doing something to correct it!!

I think with powerlifting and lifting genrally it is easy to start thinking along the lines of "must stuff myself" and "I'll eat my way through that sticking point"

Hey, it works!!

As regards health benefits - as with lifting the point at which you see health benefits is pretty low and the principle of diminishing returns kicks in after that. Eg a non lifter would gain a lot if he regularly deadlifted 100 kg and wouldn't gain that much more health benefits by building up to 250+ kg which could take years of effort. Likewise regular brisk walking would do a non cardio person a lot of good, you don't have to go running a marathon etc.

Good points, and exactly what I was thinking. I've no need to get into race shape like!

Hanley

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Yeah but thats a really really rough yardstick. If you can get access to a HRM to do a proper test it'd be far better - you'll need one to train to HR zones anyway. To be honest though that might be complicating things a bit much, I was just trying to show why sprint training wasn't right for your goals. If your longer runs are at a perceived effort of 75% of your max then you'll be more or less on teh money. Keep it conversational - if you couldn't hold a conversation while you're running then slow down because you're going too fast!

Aye, I figured it was just a general formula prone to error!! For the most part I was comfortable and conscious that the only goal was to get thru a lap without stopping. Now I've done that I can push for 2 laps, or 1 lap faster, or whatever. I know what's comfortable anyway!

That's perfect for a starter program, the weekly time trials gives you something to aim for and measure improvements as well. Once you plateau on times you know it's time to move up a level.

Cool, thanks!! My fitness will be going up and weight coming down so should be able to milk it for a while!!

Oner last thing - you mentioned feeling "lame" for your pace on teh last run. You were doing 11:30 min miles which (I won't lie!) isn't going to set a world record but is perfectly respectable for someone of your size (maintain that and it equates to a 70 min 10k or a sub 5 marathon, for example). And I know people who started off at that speed and now are aiming at running sub 3 marathons, everyone starts somewhere, it's just about being outside the comfort zone.

Thanks

Hanley

Tingle wrote: »

A session I use in early season for long sprinters in Oct or Nov is called 30/30. It works very much at improving your vVo2 max. Per http://www.brianmac.co.uk/vvo2max.htm vVo2 max -

"Running at vVO2max increases leg muscle strength and power, and enhanced strength tends to improve economy (muscle cells are stronger, fewer needed to run at a particular pace, thus the energy expenditure is lower). vVO2max effort boosts neuromuscular responsiveness and coordination which reduces energy expenditure."

"vVO2max is the minimal running velocity which produces VO2max i.e. causes your muscular system to utilise oxygen at its highest possible rate."

One of my main concerns at the moment is the increasing amount of time it takes me to recover between sets in the gym. I think that would be helped by greater anerobic conditioning as opposed to aerobic?

The 30/30 session is very simple. You run for 30 secs, then walk/jog for 30secs. You build it up gradually over the 4-8 week period. Start at maybe 10 reps, add 2-4 reps a week and continually build up. This is a very economic way of improving aerobic ability of someone who may be carrying muscle like a sprinter or yourself. Its similar to the fartlek mentioned but more structured.

Like Cowerzp said above?? Cardio for dummies pretty much

This added to shorter power based stuff (4 x 40m at full tilt with full recovery) will help your half pitch efforts while stuff like 100-120-150m runs will give you an element of speed endurance.

Since it such a condensed timeframe it will be hard to know how it would work but a 3 day running program of short stuff (40-50m runs), medium stuff (100-150m) and then the aerobic stuff (30/30) might be an option.

Well I've no good reason to improve my short sprint times outside of my own satisfaction. I only said it because I believed it would be indicative of better aerobic/running capabilities, from everyones posts it seems I was wrong. So I've no particular attachment to that as a yardstick if my time would be better spent elsewhere like!

Hanley

eroo wrote: »

Personally speaking... if I haven't done any cardio in a while I don't start straight off with sprints. My legs can be sore for days after an interval session. Don't know if the same happens for you though.

Plus, you will be DYING pretty quickly at 109kg and the fact you haven't done cardio in quite some time. Maybe a week or two of light running 3/4 times a week. That'd build a very small base to work off.. then introduce sprint work.

My 2c

Yea the sprinting stuff was tough. Recovery was SLOW. It's actually looking like the sprint stuff might not be that useful now, so I'm not too sure what I'll do with it.

I might.... (see below)

Naos wrote: »

Good advice on this thread, only started cardio myself yesterday morning

Doing a brief 5 min jog in phoenix park to warm up followed my sprints up the Popes Cross. Running up the hill not the steps as I found the hill tougher (it's steeper), although I'll inevitably have to do the Rocky thing at some stage

Going to give fartlek a go tomorrow. Quick question, would doing sprint training 5x a week be too much, Mon - Fri?

Or is that the equivilant of "I don't want to do weights as I don't want to be built like Arnie!".

I've looked at that hill actually and considered it. I don't think I'm up to it yet tho.

...(continuing from above) add in some hill sprints once a week for a while to break things up and for a change of pace, tho if they're gonna hamper recovery I won't.

eroo

Hanley wrote: »

Yea the sprinting stuff was tough. Recovery was SLOW. It's actually looking like the sprint stuff might not be that useful now, so I'm not too sure what I'll do with it.

I might.... (see below)



I've looked at that hill actually and considered it. I don't think I'm up to it yet tho.

...(continuing from above) add in some hill sprints once a week for a while to break things up and for a change of pace, tho if they're gonna hamper recovery I won't.

For a person who is quite fit aerobically and anaerobically.. 2x sprint sessions a week would be the most they'd do. Sprint sessions are designed to destroy you!:D Thus, they require a lot of recovery. What you could do if your looking to just get a bit fitter, is do 3 run sessions a week. Try and run for 20 mins.. walk if you have to.. but get 20 mins activity in. If your not keen on running.. why not take up cycling or swimming? You can introduce interval sessions into both. They will be just as effective for your ticker!