MPEG2 vs MPEG4 DTT

mrdtv

I was very amused by the hostile reactions to my forecast last week that Boxer was DOA. As expected Boxer pulled out today. As night follows day. The expectations of the Irish Government, RTENL, BCI et al were completely unrealistic. None of the other parties will follow Boxer into the morass.

The most logical solution NOW would be to :

a) Align with the UK whether that be MPEG2 DVB-T or MEPG4 DVB-T2

b) Align with Freesat. RTE and TV3 could be transmitted using the MHEG5 fix which ITV HD uses making them invisible to Sky and most FTA boxes. A very attractive interim fix

c) Ditch the rollout programme for FTA DTT to relay stations.

d) Keep it really simple.

Otherwise another eight years will be wasted. This is just like the whole 1960's ourselves alone TV solution. It is, as the venerable Bill Clinton said, all about the economy stupid. But will the politicians, posters, pundits and regulators get it?

I doubt it!

mjsmyth

[Mod Edit: All the MPEG related posts culled from two threads. Sorry if a bit disjointed (watty) ]

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a) Align with the UK whether that be MPEG2 DVB-T or MEPG4 DVB-T2

Why? What is wrong with Mpeg4 DVB-T ? We don't have the bandwidth issues there are in the UK as we don't have that many channels.

b) Align with Freesat. RTE and TV3 could be transmitted using the MHEG5 fix which ITV HD uses making them invisible to Sky and most FTA boxes. A very attractive interim fix

That fix is not a fix as ITV HD can be received on many many different FTA receivers and also on the updated Sky HD EPG. RTE will not go FTA for many reasons, the main one being that it will cost them money to do so.

c) Ditch the rollout programme for FTA DTT to relay stations.

Only build what is needed.

d) Keep it really simple.

I would be happy if they just managed to get the 4 channels out there on DTT (maybe even 3E).

mj

STB

The hostile reactions were to your suggestions of going back in time to use defunct technolgy such as mpeg2. Aligning "oursleves" with the UK.....

Your aligning suggestion for freesat is a new one though..... ho ho ho.

Most FTA boxes have no problem in manually adding ITV HD actually!

Do you think that would pass the rights buyers and holders in the UK....:rolleyes:

Not a bleedin chance, as Bertie might say.:)

A 5 year old child would be able to tell you what a bad time this is for investing in any venture, especially one so competitive as subscription TV via a new and unproved platform.

What you will have to grasp is that Digital Switcover and ASO WILL happen regardless......

Did you say you are an economist ?

mjsmyth

I also think it is pointless having a separate system to the UK, even if the UK will eventually go MPEG-4 with Freeview.

But why would we go for an outdated Mpeg2 based system???? It just does not make sense at all.

Mpeg4 DVB-T is current champion for DTT. Sure there will be Mpeg4 DVB-T2 at some stage, but to the best of my knowledge, there are no T2 receivers out there at the moment.

For once, someone somewhere made a good decision by selecting Mpeg4. We are not the only country in the world using it, there are plenty of others an a little bit of research will show you them.

The only reason I can see for going down the Mpeg2 route (and depriving ourselves of any real HD options in the future), would be because receivers are so cheap.. Thats not a good enough reason really. Had we got DTT 5 years ago, then yes, it may have made sense, but not today or any other day in the future.

mj

DMC

Those who think that we should be using MPEG2 should note that the decision is made, its MPEG4 over DVB-T, and thats it.

No going back. Move onto the next argument.

Also, if MPEG4 and/or DVB-T2 boxes did appear in the UK, at least it will be at a time when STB's are near end-of-life or in need of replacement through the natural cycle of electronics gear. They've had MPEG2 since 1998, 12-15 years seems to me to be a decent timeline, as opposed to launching here with an superseded codec.

Elmo

mjsmyth wrote: »

I also think it is pointless having a separate system to the UK, even if the UK will eventually go MPEG-4 with Freeview.

I think it should be a European Standard don't see why we have to follow the British.

mjsmyth

Elmo wrote: »

I think it should be a European Standard don't see why we have to follow the British.

Just so there is no misunderstanding, I was quoting a previous poster when I said that.... I did go on to disagree with him then

mj

Elmo

mjsmyth wrote: »

Just so there is no misunderstanding, I was quoting a previous poster when I said that.... I did go on to disagree with him then

mj

I was just reinforcing your point :cool:

tretle

I know how to solve this annoying mpeg2 vs mpeg4 debate, lets just use dirac instead, its superior and will inevitably reduce the costs of manufacturing the dtt receivers because the manufacturers wouldn't have to pay for a royalties to develop hardware which uses mpeg encoding.

L1011

tretle wrote: »

I know how to solve this annoying mpeg2 vs mpeg4 debate, lets just use dirac instead, its superior and will inevitably reduce the costs of manufacturing the dtt receivers because the manufacturers wouldn't have to pay for a royalties to develop hardware which uses mpeg encoding.

...except for the millions and millions of euro it would cost to actually design Dirac capable chipsets. Which would inevitably make the initial boxes cost thousands apiece.

MPEG decoders are cheap for a reason - mass volume. The licences are a pittance.

GiftGrub100

Would it not make commercial sense in the short term for the RTE's free to air digital service to switch to the UK style Mpeg 2 system as most TV's sold in the last 2/3 years in Ireland can actually receive the channels and most TV's on sale at the moment can get these channels as well with the built in freeview decoders.

While Mpeg 4 is technically superior do we really need this and the complications that this has caused ?

Do they have to switch off analogue by 2012 ?

If they switch to Mpeg2 which is an older and more inferior system will it really make that much difference in a country with four local channels.

When the country gets back up and running in a few years we could then have a freeview style system with RTE and TV3 leading the way. How many people would actually pay for extra channels on a digital terrestrial system when you can get a Satellite system with much greater choice for similar money.

We need to get digital terrestrial up and running fast with people able to see the pictures asap and not have to spend hundreds of euro, the cheapest route is to follow the UK system and then in 5-10 years upgrade from there.

As most of the TVs with Freeview can pick up the current RTE digital transmissions audio how difficult would it be to adapt them to receive the picture as well and how much would this cost ?

paulm17781

We are better off using Mpeg4 from the onset. It is a newer technology and better.

We are terrible for doing things badly in this country, for once we are doing something right. Let's be happy with that and stop comparing to the UK. As Watty keeps saying, Freeview in the UK will make no difference to what happens here for a variety of reasons.

mjsmyth

As stated elsewhere, I think RTE need to start pushing this service and need to start pushing the service soon. We have a few years before ASO and the more they drum the new service into peoples minds, the better.

I can't understand why people want to stick with mpeg 2 technology. The fact that the UK use it should have no bearing at all on our decision, but I presume people that advocate its use do so because we could buy cheap boxes from the UK for the service.

By the time ASO comes around, Mpeg4 DTT will be in full flight in many other countries around Europe and the indeed the world. The glorious thing about the internet (apart from boards.ie) is that we can order equipment cheaply from almost anywhere. I can't see an SD STB costing anywhere near 100 euro when the switch off comes.

If one of the other bidders steps up to the plate, then the price of the box is a red herring. One would imagine that by signing up with Ireland DTT, one will get a standard box for free. If you want a HD box or a PVR, then you pay extra.

In an ideal world, by the end of this year, we should have all 4 Irish channels up and running (perhaps even 3E). That is in an ideal world. Sure the first people to buy into it will pay more for the equipment, but that is the same for every new piece of technology.

One thing that has never been mentioned in any debate is a local TV station... Obivously 1 per county would be a bit much, but certainly at leas one per province and also perhaps Dublin and Cork would also have their own channels...

Anyway..

snaps

I know everyone is harping on about MPEG4. Yes its a great idea for when you want to broadcast lots of channels in 1 mux, but why do we really need it at the moment?

How much extra will it cost to start a MPEG2 4 channel (Irish channels) mux off?

At the moment the DTT is not needing any space for extra channels?

Think of the poor consumer now heading out this weekend with a hard earned grand in their pockets going to buy a new TV that has a digital ready sign on it (Possibly a UK sticker). Then in a few months time the DTT starts up & then they have to then buy another STB to receive the 4 Irish channels in decent digital quality?

I personally think its madness ruling out completely a MPEG 2 DTT service to start with.

There must be 1000's of TV's already purchased here in Ireland with MPEG2 tuners. Thats 1000's of already potential viewers to start with?

My analogue picture has gone so bad recently (Along with others in my area) i have welcomed the recent DTT trial/tests a breath of fresh air. I have one TV in the house now that can receive good quality Irish TV at last (Via a Technomate 6900) I even watched my 1st champions league match on RTE 2 last week as it was much better quality.

But thats only my main TV that can recieve it & ill be damned if im going out & buying similar MPEG4 receivers in the near future to receive these transmissions, so when im in front of the other TV's its UK FTA channels i watch.

Capt'n Midnight

We had a six year head start on the Italians and Sardinia went totally digital last year. MPEG2 receivers are down to about €24 in Italy and you can get receivers with two tuners, which solves the problem of a second TV or recording. There are DVD players with MPEG2 built in. Once there is a market this stuff will be cheap and available.

But they are selling HD tuners too , I assume they are like the French ones and use MPEG4, All the bigger stations are doing HD tests. MPEG4 is the future. And by the time we actually get around to changing over they shouldn't be much more expensive than MPEG2.

In Sardinia many of the local stations like Sardegna Uno , Videolina have 5 channels each. OK a lot of it is repeats and like TG4 doing 24 hour news and transmission of local GAA matches / feis ceoil and such local events. And there are a rake of shopping channels.

List of multiplexes - RAI have 6 , probably more than all the Teresterail Broadcasters here and the UK without regional variations. ( RAI3 is regional)
http://www.sardegnahertz.it/html/query/mux_elenco.php
top list national MUX (Italy)
bottom list Local Multiplex (Sardinia or parts of)

http://www.sardegnahertz.it/html/query/elenco_tv.php
List of stations eg: Transmitters with BBC world http://www.sardegnahertz.it/html/query/emittenteTv.php?id_tv=49

http://www.sardegnahertz.it/html/query/geomux.php maps

Elmo

snaps wrote: »

There must be 1000's of TV's already purchased here in Ireland with MPEG2 tuners. Thats 1000's of already potential viewers to start with?

My analogue picture has gone so bad recently (Along with others in my area) i have welcomed the recent DTT trial/tests a breath of fresh air. I have one TV in the house now that can receive good quality Irish TV at last (Via a Technomate 6900) I even watched my 1st champions league match on RTE 2 last week as it was much better quality.

But thats only my main TV that can recieve it & ill be damned if im going out & buying similar MPEG4 receivers in the near future to receive these transmissions, so when im in front of the other TV's its UK FTA channels i watch.

Aren't the tests in MPEG4 at the moment?

Most of the First movers have digital Cable and/or Satellite, it won't effect them but the decision is unfortunate. Oh you are a first mover (not much of an advantage )

Why not just go with MPEG 5 on all new TV sets/DVD recorders/PVRs?

snaps

yes i know the tests are in MPEG4 which is why i have said i can only now pick up a decent picture of RTE on my main TV which has a Technomate 6900 connected to it which i use for foreign satellite tv. This also has a DVBT MPEG4 tuner in it. My other TVS around the house have mpeg 2 tuners and ive also got a DVBT Mpeg 2 STB somewhere.

Well i have very poor analogue reception but the digital picture is extremely strong from Truskmore for me. I can even pick up a DTT signal in the house with a indoor aerial (Only sound/radio works though as its through an mpeg2 in built tuner)

mjsmyth

Emm.... I presume you were joking about Mpeg 5, but just in case you were not...

13. So what happened to MPEG-5 and -6? (And how about 3?)

MPEG-3 existed once upon a time, but its goal, enabling HDTV, could be accomplished using the tools of MPEG-2, and hence the work item was abandoned. So after 1,2 and 4, there was much speculation about the next number. Should it be 5 (the next) or 8 (creating an obvious binary pattern)? MPEG, however, decided not to follow either logical expansion of the sequence, but chose the number of 7 instead. So MPEG-5 and MPEG-6 are, just like MPEG-3, not defined.

http://www.chiariglione.org/mpeg/faq/mp7.htm

Elmo

mjsmyth wrote: »

Emm.... I presume you were joking about Mpeg 5, but just in case you were not...

13. So what happened to MPEG-5 and -6? (And how about 3?)

MPEG-3 existed once upon a time, but its goal, enabling HDTV, could be accomplished using the tools of MPEG-2, and hence the work item was abandoned. So after 1,2 and 4, there was much speculation about the next number. Should it be 5 (the next) or 8 (creating an obvious binary pattern)? MPEG, however, decided not to follow either logical expansion of the sequence, but chose the number of 7 instead. So MPEG-5 and MPEG-6 are, just like MPEG-3, not defined.

http://www.chiariglione.org/mpeg/faq/mp7.htm

Wasn't really sure. I thought that MPEG 5 provided interactivity and was backward compatible. I could be totally wrong.

fat-tony

Elmo wrote: »

Wasn't really sure. I thought that MPEG 5 provided interactivity and was backward compatible. I could be totally wrong.

That's MHEG5 - more alphabet soup:D

bk

I know the Irish government selected MPEG4, but the whole reason for it is no longer valid and it wouldn't be difficult to reverse the decision at this stage.

MPEG 2 and 4 can offer much the same picture quality, just MPEG 4 is much more bandwidth efficient, so that you can offer equal picture quality at lower bitrates.

You need MPEG4 if you want to squeeze as many channels as possible into the available bandwidth. But now that there will likely be only a few channels, we don't specifically need the extra space of MPEG4.

The advantage of MPEG 2 would be that almost every TV sold in Ireland over the last 4 years (and most TV's still sold this year), are compatible with MPEG 2 and therefore people won't need to go out and spend the extra expense of STB's and the annoyance of having an ugly STB hanging off your nice, above fireplace, wall mounted HDTV.

It is certainly worth considering now. Perhaps just the 4 main channels in MPEG 2 and any new channels and the 4 main channels in HD in MPEG 4. That would allow people to easily get into DTT, while giving them a clear incentive to upgrade to MPEG 4, so that the MPEG 2 transmissions, could be eventually turned off.

reslfj

ynotdu wrote: »

I am almost sure that in the UK pensioners at least have received grants as analog has closed down by region.

One TV converted including a STB for £40

ynotdu wrote: »

In the US switchover is now complete although Obama asked as president elect that it be delayed because of the economy,to the best of my knowledge nobody got any help with digital switchover.

There your are dead WRONG - US DSO/ASO postponed until June 12.
Everone can get one or two $40 coupons to pay for one or two STB's.

ynotdu wrote: »

proably would have cost G Bush the price of a cruise missile!

That cost is clasified - but much more than one missile.
The coupon program runs into billions (it ran out of money - but has now been 'Bailed-Out' like everything else).

Lars

mjsmyth

Elmo wrote: »

Wasn't really sure. I thought that MPEG 5 provided interactivity and was backward compatible. I could be totally wrong.

Ahh ok, I think you are getting Mpeg and Mheg5 mixed up. Mheg 5 is used for the interactive features.

mj

marclt

Wouldn't the most obvious solution be to broadcast MPEG2 and 4 transmissions until analogue is switched off fully.. that way you are maximising the numbers of viewers who may already have a built in tuner.

The environmental impact of all of this has to be taken into consideration. Frankly, I'm sick of all these extra boxes piling underneath the set (things used to be so much easier!)

But seriously, a halfway house in the interim could be a good option.

reslfj

mjsmyth wrote: »

13. So what happened to MPEG-5 and -6? (And how about 3?)
but chose the number of 7 instead. So MPEG-5 and MPEG-6 are, just like MPEG-3, not defined.

http://www.chiariglione.org/mpeg/faq/mp7.htm

MPEG-7 is NOT a video compression standard, but "MPEG-7 is formally called ‘Multimedia Content Description Interface’"

The MPEG-4 standard now used is part 10 or H.264/AVC.

The next standard will likely be called H.265, but more research is needed before any new standard can be drafted. H.265 is years into the future.

The current MPEG-4 question is 720p or 1080p support. Ofcom in the UK has - reluctantly - chosen 720p (MPEG-4 High Profile Level 4.0) as chips for the 1080p (MPEG-4 HP @ L 4.2) version could not be ready for the Granada HD MUX launch in November.

There is much irony in the fact that use of the DVB-T2 standard was widely argued to delay HD via DTT in the UK. MPEG-4 was said to be ready. Now it turns out that the MPEG-4 chips are only ready in the 'half-HD' 720p standard.

Lars

ynotdu

reslfj wrote: »

One TV converted including a STB for £40



There your are dead WRONG - US DSO/ASO postponed until June 12.
Everone can get one or two $40 coupons to pay for one or two STB's.



That cost is clasified - but much more than one missile.
The coupon program runs into billions (it ran out of money - but has now been 'Bailed-Out' like everything else).

Lars

well I read it as a link from the NASA site that complete switchoff was to happen two months ago in the usa,and we all know nasa never make mistakes,right?erm except for the two multimillion mars landers that burnt up during entry through the athmosphere.they were built as a joint venture between us&europe,problem was us were using inch,s and europe were using centimetres(honest):D

slegs

bk wrote: »

There will be war by the gray brigade and we all know that they are by far the most politically powerful group in Ireland. I'd hate to be the minister trying to convince these people the benefits of ASO, as basically now there is almost no benefit.

While the older generation need to be considered and work needs to be put in to get the message across to them, you have to build useful technology for the next generation and not the previous one.

Jesus, there would never be any developments if we only delivered change based on that criteria.

Capt'n Midnight

ynotdu wrote: »

well I read it as a link from the NASA site that complete switchoff was to happen two months ago in the usa,and we all know nasa never make mistakes,right?

Roughly half of the Mars probes failed. The shuttle is a monumental waste of resources, it carries an excess weight to orbit equilivant to skylab on most missions.

/OT

http://www.dvb.org/about_dvb/dvb_worldwide/italy/

A law passed in 2007 means that any TV sets on sale in Italy from the 3rd April 2009 must have integrated DTT decoders. All models with integrated DTT decoders compatible for the reception of Italian free to air and Pay TV services must have a white DGTVi stamp.

watty

reslfj wrote: »

MPEG-7 is NOT a video compression standard, but "MPEG-7 is formally called ‘Multimedia Content Description Interface’"

The MPEG-4 standard now used is part 10 or H.264/AVC.

The next standard will likely be called H.265, but more research is needed before any new standard can be drafted. H.265 is years into the future.

The current MPEG-4 question is 720p or 1080p support. Ofcom in the UK has - reluctantly - chosen 720p (MPEG-4 High Profile Level 4.0) as chips for the 1080p (MPEG-4 HP @ L 4.2) version could not be ready for the Granada HD MUX launch in November.

There is much irony in the fact that use of the DVB-T2 standard was widely argued to delay HD via DTT in the UK. MPEG-4 was said to be ready. Now it turns out that the MPEG-4 chips are only ready in the 'half-HD' 720p standard.

Lars

1080p makes no sense, only a reduction in flicker on one line high detail. 1080i is the same resolution. Or would you claim 576 lines PAL is "really" only 288 resolution as it's 576i rather than 576p. The USA does do 480p as well as 480i on digital (which despite marketing is NOT HD), not for more resolution, but to avoid the 3:2 pull down Telecine artifact on 30fps interlaced.. Since Europe uses 24fps speeded to 25fps there is no pull down artifact on Interlaced, thus no real need for progressive transmission, which uses twice the bandwidth.

Satellite HD is all 1080i in Europe.

720p is a big step for 480 line USA. It's nearly pointless for 576 line Europe.

I'm not sure what you are talking about as the MPEG4 decoder part is same for DTT/DVB-t, DVB-c, DVB-s, DVB-s2, DVB-t2. It's only the tuner DSP that is different.

Current MPEG4 standards for MPEG4 AVC H.264 cover 1080i. I'm not sure which version of MPEG covers 1080p, but some broadcaster in US is using it, because of the pull down artifact. We don't need 1080p unless we change to 30fps.

bk

slegs wrote: »

While the older generation need to be considered and work needs to be put in to get the message across to them, you have to build useful technology for the next generation and not the previous one.

Jesus, there would never be any developments if we only delivered change based on that criteria.

But the thing is, the majority of users of terrestrial only are older and vulnerable people.

Most younger and wealthy people have Sky, UPC or Freesat.

slegs

bk wrote: »

But the thing is, the majority of users of terrestrial only are older and vulnerable people.

Most younger and wealthy people have Sky, UPC or Freesat.

Fairly broad statement. I would really like to see stats on that one. A user of terrestrial may also have Sky or and FTA box.

Also presumes to assume that older people cant handle change of this type. They manage to adapt to mobiles, SMS, d'Internet etc. The service is better so why should they not benefit also. I know the age lobby were in the Dail recently and were very positive about this as it also brings benefits like audio description and better subtitles where the features are used. Their concerns were around cost and this could be managed if the government will is there to solve this.