MPEG2 vs MPEG4 DTT

mrdtv

I was very amused by the hostile reactions to my forecast last week that Boxer was DOA. As expected Boxer pulled out today. As night follows day. The expectations of the Irish Government, RTENL, BCI et al were completely unrealistic. None of the other parties will follow Boxer into the morass.

The most logical solution NOW would be to :

a) Align with the UK whether that be MPEG2 DVB-T or MEPG4 DVB-T2

b) Align with Freesat. RTE and TV3 could be transmitted using the MHEG5 fix which ITV HD uses making them invisible to Sky and most FTA boxes. A very attractive interim fix

c) Ditch the rollout programme for FTA DTT to relay stations.

d) Keep it really simple.

Otherwise another eight years will be wasted. This is just like the whole 1960's ourselves alone TV solution. It is, as the venerable Bill Clinton said, all about the economy stupid. But will the politicians, posters, pundits and regulators get it?

I doubt it!

mjsmyth

[Mod Edit: All the MPEG related posts culled from two threads. Sorry if a bit disjointed (watty) ]

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a) Align with the UK whether that be MPEG2 DVB-T or MEPG4 DVB-T2

Why? What is wrong with Mpeg4 DVB-T ? We don't have the bandwidth issues there are in the UK as we don't have that many channels.

b) Align with Freesat. RTE and TV3 could be transmitted using the MHEG5 fix which ITV HD uses making them invisible to Sky and most FTA boxes. A very attractive interim fix

That fix is not a fix as ITV HD can be received on many many different FTA receivers and also on the updated Sky HD EPG. RTE will not go FTA for many reasons, the main one being that it will cost them money to do so.

c) Ditch the rollout programme for FTA DTT to relay stations.

Only build what is needed.

d) Keep it really simple.

I would be happy if they just managed to get the 4 channels out there on DTT (maybe even 3E).

mj

STB

The hostile reactions were to your suggestions of going back in time to use defunct technolgy such as mpeg2. Aligning "oursleves" with the UK.....

Your aligning suggestion for freesat is a new one though..... ho ho ho.

Most FTA boxes have no problem in manually adding ITV HD actually!

Do you think that would pass the rights buyers and holders in the UK....:rolleyes:

Not a bleedin chance, as Bertie might say.:)

A 5 year old child would be able to tell you what a bad time this is for investing in any venture, especially one so competitive as subscription TV via a new and unproved platform.

What you will have to grasp is that Digital Switcover and ASO WILL happen regardless......

Did you say you are an economist ?

mjsmyth

I also think it is pointless having a separate system to the UK, even if the UK will eventually go MPEG-4 with Freeview.

But why would we go for an outdated Mpeg2 based system???? It just does not make sense at all.

Mpeg4 DVB-T is current champion for DTT. Sure there will be Mpeg4 DVB-T2 at some stage, but to the best of my knowledge, there are no T2 receivers out there at the moment.

For once, someone somewhere made a good decision by selecting Mpeg4. We are not the only country in the world using it, there are plenty of others an a little bit of research will show you them.

The only reason I can see for going down the Mpeg2 route (and depriving ourselves of any real HD options in the future), would be because receivers are so cheap.. Thats not a good enough reason really. Had we got DTT 5 years ago, then yes, it may have made sense, but not today or any other day in the future.

mj

DMC

Those who think that we should be using MPEG2 should note that the decision is made, its MPEG4 over DVB-T, and thats it.

No going back. Move onto the next argument.

Also, if MPEG4 and/or DVB-T2 boxes did appear in the UK, at least it will be at a time when STB's are near end-of-life or in need of replacement through the natural cycle of electronics gear. They've had MPEG2 since 1998, 12-15 years seems to me to be a decent timeline, as opposed to launching here with an superseded codec.

Elmo

mjsmyth wrote: »

I also think it is pointless having a separate system to the UK, even if the UK will eventually go MPEG-4 with Freeview.

I think it should be a European Standard don't see why we have to follow the British.

mjsmyth

Elmo wrote: »

I think it should be a European Standard don't see why we have to follow the British.

Just so there is no misunderstanding, I was quoting a previous poster when I said that.... I did go on to disagree with him then

mj

Elmo

mjsmyth wrote: »

Just so there is no misunderstanding, I was quoting a previous poster when I said that.... I did go on to disagree with him then

mj

I was just reinforcing your point :cool:

tretle

I know how to solve this annoying mpeg2 vs mpeg4 debate, lets just use dirac instead, its superior and will inevitably reduce the costs of manufacturing the dtt receivers because the manufacturers wouldn't have to pay for a royalties to develop hardware which uses mpeg encoding.

L1011

tretle wrote: »

I know how to solve this annoying mpeg2 vs mpeg4 debate, lets just use dirac instead, its superior and will inevitably reduce the costs of manufacturing the dtt receivers because the manufacturers wouldn't have to pay for a royalties to develop hardware which uses mpeg encoding.

...except for the millions and millions of euro it would cost to actually design Dirac capable chipsets. Which would inevitably make the initial boxes cost thousands apiece.

MPEG decoders are cheap for a reason - mass volume. The licences are a pittance.

GiftGrub100

Would it not make commercial sense in the short term for the RTE's free to air digital service to switch to the UK style Mpeg 2 system as most TV's sold in the last 2/3 years in Ireland can actually receive the channels and most TV's on sale at the moment can get these channels as well with the built in freeview decoders.

While Mpeg 4 is technically superior do we really need this and the complications that this has caused ?

Do they have to switch off analogue by 2012 ?

If they switch to Mpeg2 which is an older and more inferior system will it really make that much difference in a country with four local channels.

When the country gets back up and running in a few years we could then have a freeview style system with RTE and TV3 leading the way. How many people would actually pay for extra channels on a digital terrestrial system when you can get a Satellite system with much greater choice for similar money.

We need to get digital terrestrial up and running fast with people able to see the pictures asap and not have to spend hundreds of euro, the cheapest route is to follow the UK system and then in 5-10 years upgrade from there.

As most of the TVs with Freeview can pick up the current RTE digital transmissions audio how difficult would it be to adapt them to receive the picture as well and how much would this cost ?

paulm17781

We are better off using Mpeg4 from the onset. It is a newer technology and better.

We are terrible for doing things badly in this country, for once we are doing something right. Let's be happy with that and stop comparing to the UK. As Watty keeps saying, Freeview in the UK will make no difference to what happens here for a variety of reasons.

mjsmyth

As stated elsewhere, I think RTE need to start pushing this service and need to start pushing the service soon. We have a few years before ASO and the more they drum the new service into peoples minds, the better.

I can't understand why people want to stick with mpeg 2 technology. The fact that the UK use it should have no bearing at all on our decision, but I presume people that advocate its use do so because we could buy cheap boxes from the UK for the service.

By the time ASO comes around, Mpeg4 DTT will be in full flight in many other countries around Europe and the indeed the world. The glorious thing about the internet (apart from boards.ie) is that we can order equipment cheaply from almost anywhere. I can't see an SD STB costing anywhere near 100 euro when the switch off comes.

If one of the other bidders steps up to the plate, then the price of the box is a red herring. One would imagine that by signing up with Ireland DTT, one will get a standard box for free. If you want a HD box or a PVR, then you pay extra.

In an ideal world, by the end of this year, we should have all 4 Irish channels up and running (perhaps even 3E). That is in an ideal world. Sure the first people to buy into it will pay more for the equipment, but that is the same for every new piece of technology.

One thing that has never been mentioned in any debate is a local TV station... Obivously 1 per county would be a bit much, but certainly at leas one per province and also perhaps Dublin and Cork would also have their own channels...

Anyway..

snaps

I know everyone is harping on about MPEG4. Yes its a great idea for when you want to broadcast lots of channels in 1 mux, but why do we really need it at the moment?

How much extra will it cost to start a MPEG2 4 channel (Irish channels) mux off?

At the moment the DTT is not needing any space for extra channels?

Think of the poor consumer now heading out this weekend with a hard earned grand in their pockets going to buy a new TV that has a digital ready sign on it (Possibly a UK sticker). Then in a few months time the DTT starts up & then they have to then buy another STB to receive the 4 Irish channels in decent digital quality?

I personally think its madness ruling out completely a MPEG 2 DTT service to start with.

There must be 1000's of TV's already purchased here in Ireland with MPEG2 tuners. Thats 1000's of already potential viewers to start with?

My analogue picture has gone so bad recently (Along with others in my area) i have welcomed the recent DTT trial/tests a breath of fresh air. I have one TV in the house now that can receive good quality Irish TV at last (Via a Technomate 6900) I even watched my 1st champions league match on RTE 2 last week as it was much better quality.

But thats only my main TV that can recieve it & ill be damned if im going out & buying similar MPEG4 receivers in the near future to receive these transmissions, so when im in front of the other TV's its UK FTA channels i watch.

Capt'n Midnight

We had a six year head start on the Italians and Sardinia went totally digital last year. MPEG2 receivers are down to about €24 in Italy and you can get receivers with two tuners, which solves the problem of a second TV or recording. There are DVD players with MPEG2 built in. Once there is a market this stuff will be cheap and available.

But they are selling HD tuners too , I assume they are like the French ones and use MPEG4, All the bigger stations are doing HD tests. MPEG4 is the future. And by the time we actually get around to changing over they shouldn't be much more expensive than MPEG2.

In Sardinia many of the local stations like Sardegna Uno , Videolina have 5 channels each. OK a lot of it is repeats and like TG4 doing 24 hour news and transmission of local GAA matches / feis ceoil and such local events. And there are a rake of shopping channels.

List of multiplexes - RAI have 6 , probably more than all the Teresterail Broadcasters here and the UK without regional variations. ( RAI3 is regional)
http://www.sardegnahertz.it/html/query/mux_elenco.php
top list national MUX (Italy)
bottom list Local Multiplex (Sardinia or parts of)

http://www.sardegnahertz.it/html/query/elenco_tv.php
List of stations eg: Transmitters with BBC world http://www.sardegnahertz.it/html/query/emittenteTv.php?id_tv=49

http://www.sardegnahertz.it/html/query/geomux.php maps

Elmo

snaps wrote: »

There must be 1000's of TV's already purchased here in Ireland with MPEG2 tuners. Thats 1000's of already potential viewers to start with?

My analogue picture has gone so bad recently (Along with others in my area) i have welcomed the recent DTT trial/tests a breath of fresh air. I have one TV in the house now that can receive good quality Irish TV at last (Via a Technomate 6900) I even watched my 1st champions league match on RTE 2 last week as it was much better quality.

But thats only my main TV that can recieve it & ill be damned if im going out & buying similar MPEG4 receivers in the near future to receive these transmissions, so when im in front of the other TV's its UK FTA channels i watch.

Aren't the tests in MPEG4 at the moment?

Most of the First movers have digital Cable and/or Satellite, it won't effect them but the decision is unfortunate. Oh you are a first mover (not much of an advantage )

Why not just go with MPEG 5 on all new TV sets/DVD recorders/PVRs?

snaps

yes i know the tests are in MPEG4 which is why i have said i can only now pick up a decent picture of RTE on my main TV which has a Technomate 6900 connected to it which i use for foreign satellite tv. This also has a DVBT MPEG4 tuner in it. My other TVS around the house have mpeg 2 tuners and ive also got a DVBT Mpeg 2 STB somewhere.

Well i have very poor analogue reception but the digital picture is extremely strong from Truskmore for me. I can even pick up a DTT signal in the house with a indoor aerial (Only sound/radio works though as its through an mpeg2 in built tuner)

mjsmyth

Emm.... I presume you were joking about Mpeg 5, but just in case you were not...

13. So what happened to MPEG-5 and -6? (And how about 3?)

MPEG-3 existed once upon a time, but its goal, enabling HDTV, could be accomplished using the tools of MPEG-2, and hence the work item was abandoned. So after 1,2 and 4, there was much speculation about the next number. Should it be 5 (the next) or 8 (creating an obvious binary pattern)? MPEG, however, decided not to follow either logical expansion of the sequence, but chose the number of 7 instead. So MPEG-5 and MPEG-6 are, just like MPEG-3, not defined.

http://www.chiariglione.org/mpeg/faq/mp7.htm

Elmo

mjsmyth wrote: »

Emm.... I presume you were joking about Mpeg 5, but just in case you were not...

13. So what happened to MPEG-5 and -6? (And how about 3?)

MPEG-3 existed once upon a time, but its goal, enabling HDTV, could be accomplished using the tools of MPEG-2, and hence the work item was abandoned. So after 1,2 and 4, there was much speculation about the next number. Should it be 5 (the next) or 8 (creating an obvious binary pattern)? MPEG, however, decided not to follow either logical expansion of the sequence, but chose the number of 7 instead. So MPEG-5 and MPEG-6 are, just like MPEG-3, not defined.

http://www.chiariglione.org/mpeg/faq/mp7.htm

Wasn't really sure. I thought that MPEG 5 provided interactivity and was backward compatible. I could be totally wrong.

fat-tony

Elmo wrote: »

Wasn't really sure. I thought that MPEG 5 provided interactivity and was backward compatible. I could be totally wrong.

That's MHEG5 - more alphabet soup:D

bk

I know the Irish government selected MPEG4, but the whole reason for it is no longer valid and it wouldn't be difficult to reverse the decision at this stage.

MPEG 2 and 4 can offer much the same picture quality, just MPEG 4 is much more bandwidth efficient, so that you can offer equal picture quality at lower bitrates.

You need MPEG4 if you want to squeeze as many channels as possible into the available bandwidth. But now that there will likely be only a few channels, we don't specifically need the extra space of MPEG4.

The advantage of MPEG 2 would be that almost every TV sold in Ireland over the last 4 years (and most TV's still sold this year), are compatible with MPEG 2 and therefore people won't need to go out and spend the extra expense of STB's and the annoyance of having an ugly STB hanging off your nice, above fireplace, wall mounted HDTV.

It is certainly worth considering now. Perhaps just the 4 main channels in MPEG 2 and any new channels and the 4 main channels in HD in MPEG 4. That would allow people to easily get into DTT, while giving them a clear incentive to upgrade to MPEG 4, so that the MPEG 2 transmissions, could be eventually turned off.

reslfj

ynotdu wrote: »

I am almost sure that in the UK pensioners at least have received grants as analog has closed down by region.

One TV converted including a STB for £40

ynotdu wrote: »

In the US switchover is now complete although Obama asked as president elect that it be delayed because of the economy,to the best of my knowledge nobody got any help with digital switchover.

There your are dead WRONG - US DSO/ASO postponed until June 12.
Everone can get one or two $40 coupons to pay for one or two STB's.

ynotdu wrote: »

proably would have cost G Bush the price of a cruise missile!

That cost is clasified - but much more than one missile.
The coupon program runs into billions (it ran out of money - but has now been 'Bailed-Out' like everything else).

Lars

mjsmyth

Elmo wrote: »

Wasn't really sure. I thought that MPEG 5 provided interactivity and was backward compatible. I could be totally wrong.

Ahh ok, I think you are getting Mpeg and Mheg5 mixed up. Mheg 5 is used for the interactive features.

mj

marclt

Wouldn't the most obvious solution be to broadcast MPEG2 and 4 transmissions until analogue is switched off fully.. that way you are maximising the numbers of viewers who may already have a built in tuner.

The environmental impact of all of this has to be taken into consideration. Frankly, I'm sick of all these extra boxes piling underneath the set (things used to be so much easier!)

But seriously, a halfway house in the interim could be a good option.

reslfj

mjsmyth wrote: »

13. So what happened to MPEG-5 and -6? (And how about 3?)
but chose the number of 7 instead. So MPEG-5 and MPEG-6 are, just like MPEG-3, not defined.

http://www.chiariglione.org/mpeg/faq/mp7.htm

MPEG-7 is NOT a video compression standard, but "MPEG-7 is formally called ‘Multimedia Content Description Interface’"

The MPEG-4 standard now used is part 10 or H.264/AVC.

The next standard will likely be called H.265, but more research is needed before any new standard can be drafted. H.265 is years into the future.

The current MPEG-4 question is 720p or 1080p support. Ofcom in the UK has - reluctantly - chosen 720p (MPEG-4 High Profile Level 4.0) as chips for the 1080p (MPEG-4 HP @ L 4.2) version could not be ready for the Granada HD MUX launch in November.

There is much irony in the fact that use of the DVB-T2 standard was widely argued to delay HD via DTT in the UK. MPEG-4 was said to be ready. Now it turns out that the MPEG-4 chips are only ready in the 'half-HD' 720p standard.

Lars

ynotdu

reslfj wrote: »

One TV converted including a STB for £40



There your are dead WRONG - US DSO/ASO postponed until June 12.
Everone can get one or two $40 coupons to pay for one or two STB's.



That cost is clasified - but much more than one missile.
The coupon program runs into billions (it ran out of money - but has now been 'Bailed-Out' like everything else).

Lars

well I read it as a link from the NASA site that complete switchoff was to happen two months ago in the usa,and we all know nasa never make mistakes,right?erm except for the two multimillion mars landers that burnt up during entry through the athmosphere.they were built as a joint venture between us&europe,problem was us were using inch,s and europe were using centimetres(honest):D

slegs

bk wrote: »

There will be war by the gray brigade and we all know that they are by far the most politically powerful group in Ireland. I'd hate to be the minister trying to convince these people the benefits of ASO, as basically now there is almost no benefit.

While the older generation need to be considered and work needs to be put in to get the message across to them, you have to build useful technology for the next generation and not the previous one.

Jesus, there would never be any developments if we only delivered change based on that criteria.

Capt'n Midnight

ynotdu wrote: »

well I read it as a link from the NASA site that complete switchoff was to happen two months ago in the usa,and we all know nasa never make mistakes,right?

Roughly half of the Mars probes failed. The shuttle is a monumental waste of resources, it carries an excess weight to orbit equilivant to skylab on most missions.

/OT

http://www.dvb.org/about_dvb/dvb_worldwide/italy/

A law passed in 2007 means that any TV sets on sale in Italy from the 3rd April 2009 must have integrated DTT decoders. All models with integrated DTT decoders compatible for the reception of Italian free to air and Pay TV services must have a white DGTVi stamp.

watty

reslfj wrote: »

MPEG-7 is NOT a video compression standard, but "MPEG-7 is formally called ‘Multimedia Content Description Interface’"

The MPEG-4 standard now used is part 10 or H.264/AVC.

The next standard will likely be called H.265, but more research is needed before any new standard can be drafted. H.265 is years into the future.

The current MPEG-4 question is 720p or 1080p support. Ofcom in the UK has - reluctantly - chosen 720p (MPEG-4 High Profile Level 4.0) as chips for the 1080p (MPEG-4 HP @ L 4.2) version could not be ready for the Granada HD MUX launch in November.

There is much irony in the fact that use of the DVB-T2 standard was widely argued to delay HD via DTT in the UK. MPEG-4 was said to be ready. Now it turns out that the MPEG-4 chips are only ready in the 'half-HD' 720p standard.

Lars

1080p makes no sense, only a reduction in flicker on one line high detail. 1080i is the same resolution. Or would you claim 576 lines PAL is "really" only 288 resolution as it's 576i rather than 576p. The USA does do 480p as well as 480i on digital (which despite marketing is NOT HD), not for more resolution, but to avoid the 3:2 pull down Telecine artifact on 30fps interlaced.. Since Europe uses 24fps speeded to 25fps there is no pull down artifact on Interlaced, thus no real need for progressive transmission, which uses twice the bandwidth.

Satellite HD is all 1080i in Europe.

720p is a big step for 480 line USA. It's nearly pointless for 576 line Europe.

I'm not sure what you are talking about as the MPEG4 decoder part is same for DTT/DVB-t, DVB-c, DVB-s, DVB-s2, DVB-t2. It's only the tuner DSP that is different.

Current MPEG4 standards for MPEG4 AVC H.264 cover 1080i. I'm not sure which version of MPEG covers 1080p, but some broadcaster in US is using it, because of the pull down artifact. We don't need 1080p unless we change to 30fps.

bk

slegs wrote: »

While the older generation need to be considered and work needs to be put in to get the message across to them, you have to build useful technology for the next generation and not the previous one.

Jesus, there would never be any developments if we only delivered change based on that criteria.

But the thing is, the majority of users of terrestrial only are older and vulnerable people.

Most younger and wealthy people have Sky, UPC or Freesat.

slegs

bk wrote: »

But the thing is, the majority of users of terrestrial only are older and vulnerable people.

Most younger and wealthy people have Sky, UPC or Freesat.

Fairly broad statement. I would really like to see stats on that one. A user of terrestrial may also have Sky or and FTA box.

Also presumes to assume that older people cant handle change of this type. They manage to adapt to mobiles, SMS, d'Internet etc. The service is better so why should they not benefit also. I know the age lobby were in the Dail recently and were very positive about this as it also brings benefits like audio description and better subtitles where the features are used. Their concerns were around cost and this could be managed if the government will is there to solve this.

reslfj

watty wrote: »

1080p makes no sense,

I do not care if I can see any difference! I reportet that Ofcom wanted to have the option to receive 1080p in all new DTT HD receivers - just in case someone in the future would broadcast 1080p. And even if the present receivers would just downscale the resulting video - they would not prevent such broadcasts.
But Ofcom was forced a few monts ago to agree to the MPEG-4 HP @ L4.0 (720p (and yes 1080i)) in the new D-Book HD chapter.

watty wrote:

I'm not sure what you are talking about as the MPEG4 decoder part is same for DTT/DVB-t, DVB-c, DVB-s, DVB-s2, DVB-t2. It's only the tuner DSP that is different.

But MPEG-4 and DVB-x1/2 chips are welded together in almost every STB's and IDTV's that people buy - that why the UK D-Book specify the minimum levels for both standards, that every receiver must be able to process.

watty wrote:

Current MPEG4 standards for MPEG4 AVC H.264 cover 1080i. I'm not sure which version of MPEG covers 1080p

Current MPEG-4 H.264/AVC has a number of profiles and levels.
As I wrote MPEG-4 High Profile Level 4.2 can process 1080p, while MPEG-4 HP @ L4.0 can 'only' process 720p (and 1080i).

Currently 1080p cannot be compressed to anything like DTT bitrates with an acceptable result - but that may change in the future.

Lars

watty

Yet again, lars, you are misleading suggesting in previous post that UK DTT HD would only be 720p.

In fact it is 1080i, and the 1080p is little or no advantange this side of Atlantic. All Satellite HD in Europe is 1080i. The fact that Ofcom was interested in 1080p is misleading and unimportant.

We never had 576p, only 576i. it's only at rare moments in Europe you would notice the difference between interlace and progressive, unlike Telecine in USA.

reslfj

watty wrote: »

Yet again, lars, you are misleading suggesting in previous post that UK DTT HD would only be 720p.

No intension to mislead, but the EBU recommends 720p over 1080i for broadcast after much testing. 720p was in the original Ofcom HD plan.
The current UK plan is to prefere 720p, but allow 1080i at least for now, as there may not be enough 720p material, yet.
Ofcom did write somewhere that 1080i compression has improved recently in quality and was much closer to 720p quality at the same bitrate.

I reported - and even gave a link - that a requirement for 1080p (HP L4.2) support was not in the new D-Book. I did not write it was important - here and now - I just reported facts.

The fact that Ofcom was interested in 1080p is misleading and unimportant.

I fail to see your point - 'misleading' how ? 'unimportant' to what. Again I reported facts and gave references to (some of) my sources.

Lars

KrisW

Using MPEG4 is the right choice. Okay, it'll annoy someone who got a "great" deal at Curry's last week, and it is going to keep Joe Duffy's producer busy early next year, but it is the right choice.

I saw the DTT test signal last night for the first time, and I was seriously impressed.. the best digital SD picture I've seen.

For comparison, the best MPEG2 streams I've seen are the BBC streams on Astra. To reach their quality levels, however, those BBC channels regularly exceed 16Mbit/sec, a bandwidth you will never see given to one channel on DTT. The SD broadcasts by RTÉ, at a far lower bit-rate still look better - less blocking, better slow motion, less banding.

MPEG2 boxes are cheaper at the moment, but the prices of MPEG4 chipsets will fall to the point where you won't be able to buy MPEG2-only chips. By analogue switch-off in three years, we could easily have a HD service in place: because we're making the right choice of codec, and we're specifying HD capable STBs, enabling HD will only involve sending a different stream of bits over the network. As for getting those bits in, RTÉ have the ability to produce HD content and most US (and soon British) imports are available in HD.

Hoping that a bit of decent STB software would make HD less of a mess than it is at the moment. HD shouldn't be a separate "channel", the way Sky do it. If your TV supports it, it should just be there, like stereo sound, widescreen, or (stretch your memory) colour.

GiftGrub100

the picture quality issue is important, however i watched the BBC masters coverage in Wexford on the Uk Freeview signal and the picture quality was very good, much better than I thought it would be.

Unless RTE are going HD in the near future I don't see how our Irish system will be much better. As for all those getting bargains in Currys - what about all the TV's bought in the North and South for the last two years, thats a lot of UK freeview tvs, whoever makes them compatible with Irish DTT will make a lot of money.

Am I right in saying that Eircom and Arqiva were pushing for MPEG-2 to be used? I'd just wonder what the situation will be if One Vision decided to go ahead? However since the spec has already been finalised they'd probably be obliged to use MPEG-4.

watty

Only because Arquiva has a bunch of unwanted MPEg2 stuff as everyone installing is doing MPEG4

GiftGrub100 wrote: »

the picture quality issue is important, however i watched the BBC masters coverage in Wexford on the Uk Freeview signal and the picture quality was very good, much better than I thought it would be.

MPEG2 or MPEG4 or even Digital, the quality is not the issue. Bitrate sets quality, MPEG4 simply lets you have about 2x as many channels or only 2.5x as much for MPEG4 HD compared to MPEG2 SD.

HD at same codec and quality needs x5 the bitrate.

We don't need a new thread. Just infract people that are determined to live in past and hanker after obsolete MPEG2.

Maybe we should bring MW RTE1 back too.

tretle

A new thread needs to be started about mpeg4 vs mpeg2, I'm sick of hearing the same crap about mpeg2 on every freaking thread, every secod or third post irrespective of the topic.
Britain are already transitioning to mpeg4, they are transitioning because they started on mpeg2 and already have a huge user base... Its going to be a pain in the ass for them.
So no, don't broadcast with an inferior system for the sake of it and thus make it more acceptable to sell more mpeg4 incompatible hardware to more consumers. And thus make for a bigger problem transitioning to mpeg4 down the line.
This is the government stepping in and stopping it from getting out of hand and having 90% of the people have issues rather than a relatively small percentage.

emaherx

watty wrote: »

Maybe we should bring MW RTE1 back too.

could we? radio in my old VW Beetle only has AM bands. Damned infernal new technology just doesn't match the dash!

MPEG2

watty wrote: »

We don't need a new thread. Just infract people that are determined to live in past and hanker after obsolete MPEG2.

I'm sorry to disagree with you Watty, as you've made so many excellent posts, but MPEG2 is a mature technology and MPEG4 is not quite there yet. Yes, I'm sure the broadcast encoders are adequate at this stage and there are some decoders out there, but, as is usually the case, the bleeding edge stuff needs more work. This is particularly true of relatively cheap consumer electronics like STBs and mobile phones. The product lifecycles are so short that they often don't bother fixing bugs and they just move on to the next new product.

The product volumes are not there yet either to reach consumer's falling price-point. Consumers don't see the need for the switch over, all they know is that they have less money these days.

The objective here is to reclaim the radio spectrum so we can better exploit this natural resource for an economic benefit. The context is that we need economies of scale and Ireland is insignificant in size and is almost (if not indeed) bankrupt. (Nationalism doesn't come into it.) 20 years ago the Irish retail sector was the same size as the greater Manchester area. It hasn't grown to anything like the size of Spain or the UK in the mean time.

Boxer is gone. One vision would be crazy to take on commercial DTT in the current environment. That leaves the last option which includes RTE. RTE (or should I say the tax payer) have to pay for the network anyway, so the pragmatic thing to do is to give them the commercial DTT MUXes also and leave the time-line for delivery open ended, keeping a few MUXes in reserve. In this way they may be able to off-set the cost of PSB somewhat in the future.

What we've got is a network that's well under way and hundreds of thousands of MPEG2 receivers are in place. The obvious thing to do is to give a MUX over to MPEG2 PBS and wait for Ireland to become solvent again. In the mean time, make dual MPEG2/4 STBs and iDTVs (only) available in the shops, reclaim the radio spectrum and launch HDTV and new channels when advertising revenues return. By that stage, there will already be an existing install base of decoders to exploit.

I realise that there will be newer technology by then, but consumers won't care, nor should we, prior to knowing what we are going to use all the extra bandwidth for. (Most people can't tell the difference between mono or stereo and they don't care.)

As for the feasibility of commercial DTT. Let's just say I won't be surprised if UPC are the next to go. The Chorus/NTL/UPC deal was consolidation of the market and to my knowledge they've failed to launch a HD product. Bad omens.

A possible Eircom broadband based TV offering, Web based TV on demand and FreeSat are all undermining the feasibilty of comercial DTT as a stand-alone service.

The Cush

tretle wrote: »

Lets assume that the RTE Mux capacity is six also, This will bring Irish Free To Air unencrypted tv to 12 channels.

What I hope to find more information on now is how many mux's will be free after the analog switchoff and how many will be used for comercial and how many will be used for fta.

There are currently 42 channels being broadcast over fta(freeview) in britain. Although I think it will be unlikely that irish fta will reach this number in the next few years I hope we will make it to at least 32.
If anyone has any info on how many mux's will be available after the switchoff please let me know so we can discuss who should get what and how many mux's can be realistly assigned to fta.

All in all I dont think I would be disapointed if onevision got the liscence. They seem like a more realistic candidate than boxer. The meare thought that we could have 12 FTA channels before the analog switchoff and the possibility of more afterwards is a great one and everyone here that fought the idea of boxer controlling this by sending emails to newspapers, regulatory authorities and even the minister for communications should pat themselves on the back. If you simply disagreed in the confines of this forum you are also responsible for this outcome as for the mails I sent I always advised the review of these threads on the public view on boxer and the current scheme.

The initial multiplex model of the of the RTÉ Mux consists of 8 Standard Definition television services, up to 8 radio services, 1 MHEG-5 data service for digital teletext, provision for PSI/SI data and EPG data and System Software Updates (see attached).
In Sweden they plan 10 SD television channels on their MPEG-4 mux. In France MPEG-4 muxes carry 3 HD channels or 1 HD channel and 4/5 SD channels.

Initally 4 muxes are available - 1 FTA & 3 Commercial, following ASO 1 further mux will be gifted to RTÉ for PSB services incl HD and 1 mux to be awarded by the BAI (BCI). The number of available muxes is regulated by the Broadcasting Acts (Part 8 of the new Broadcasting Bill).
Two further national UHF muxes are also available for new distribution and communications technologies, such as DVB-H for example. 1 VHF DVB-T mux is also available but may be used for services other than television.

Karsini wrote: »

Am I right in saying that Eircom and Arqiva were pushing for MPEG-2 to be used? I'd just wonder what the situation will be if One Vision decided to go ahead? However since the spec has already been finalised they'd probably be obliged to use MPEG-4.

No, in their application they said "OneVision welcomes the fact that the BCI are selecting a more future-proof solution in choosing MPEG4"

watty wrote: »

It's not likely there would ever be more Muxes as the plan has always been to re-purpose 120MHz to 200MHz for Internet/Data/Mobile/Other not TV. That is what is meant as the "Digital Dividend" and the real reason for a Pan Europe ASO. Not to give More channels or HD.

108 to 137 MHz are allocated worldwide to aeronautical navigation and communications (incl Emergency Freq. 121.5), they will not be reallocted. Imagine the cost of upgrading the worldwide airfleet with new nav and comms equipment let alone the ground element, where would you reallocate aeronautical VHF comms and nav?

The Digital Dividend as we know it today applies to the Broadcasting bands.

What is the Digital Dividend ?

“Spectrum capacity over and above frequencies necessary to continue all existing TV programmes”

Band I (VHF) 21 MHz
Band III (VHF) 56 MHz
Bands IV, V (UHF) 392 MHz

Source: 13th CEPT Conference "European dimension of the digital dividend" 12/10/2006

“Digital Dividend” is, according to the RSPG, to be understood as the spectrum made available over and above that required to accommodate the existing analogue television services in a digital form in VHF (Band III: 174 - 230 MHz) and UHF (Bands IV and V: 470 - 862 MHz). It should be noted however that existing analogue television also makes use of Band I (47 - 68 MHz) and, after digital switchover, Band I spectrum could be considered as digital dividend too. Furthermore, Band III is also planned for T-DAB and many existing T-DAB services already make use of Band III. In addition, in a number of countries, non-broadcasting services make use of Bands III, IV and V.

Source: EBU Jan 2007

snaps

Why cant the SD channels start up in MPEG2 then have any HD channels come along in MPEG4 then switch over.

What really is so bad using a proved system (MPEG2) which 1000's of people could in theory already receive?

With Irelands track record of consummer pricing, Can you really see MPEG stb's being sold cheap off the shelves here?

Look at the price of sat4free receivers when they came out here, I dont know anyone that actually has one?

Perhaps someone could start up a poll regarding MPEG2 or MPEG4

Scottish paddy

I presume all the all the MPEG 4 transmission equipment, or most of it has been bought by RTÉNL. I cannot see them now buying additional MPEG 2 equipment as well in the present climate. The government are going to have to ensure that there is a supply of cheap MPEG 4 STB's before they can sanction ASO. These could even be subsidised from the "digital dividend" Whatever happens ATT cannot be switched off without any economically viable means of the public receiving the national channels............could you imagin the outcry!!! So if the government (Dept. Comms.) decided on Ireland going MPEG 4 then they have to ensure it is available at a reasonably afordable cost.

Fat_Fingers

bk wrote: »

I completely disagree, try telling my retired parents that they have to spend between €400 and €500 for STB's for the 4 TV's and 1 VCR just so they can get the exact same channels again that they are already happy with.

Anyone with 4 TV's in the house probably can afford STB's. Most people i know have only one TV, Hey, maybe i'm underprivileged!! I better contact David Beggs pronto!!!

Jokes aside, I think you made a very good point here. There will be as usual complains from pensioners but you can't keep whole country to ransom because old dog wont learn a new trick.

Pensioners will want a "sweetener" , they are well used to free medical, free travel, supplement here, supplement there... so anything that has to be changed they will want taxpayer to "help vulnerable in the society" . Government will do a deal to keep geriatrics off the streets. It will be some sort of "butter vouchers" for STB, sort of voucher that will be presented at the shops when purchasing STB so that taxpayer will cover maybe 50% of the cost of the STB.

watty

The stb MUST be MPEG4. That's not a problem

Each extra Mux is a lot more money just for the transmistter electricity.

The UK channels such as BBC, C4, ITV *DO* have to be paid for. However if you only have BBC1 NI, BBC2 NI, UTV, C4 and Five it could be less than the electricity cost. However it would raise no money and cost millions every year.
RTE nor RTENL can pay. TV3 would object.
TV3 would have to pay a lot more for TV3e content FTA nationwide and have to pay for carriage.

As well as the electric each extra mux is more bandwidth to be paid for to each site. Could be Millions nationwide per Mux.

The next stage of rollout beyond the 80% to 85% of main sites doubles the distribution costs and adds maybe over 40% to electricity costs for only 5% to 10% more viewers. Each extra 5% to get to 99% is almost a doubling of costs. EVERY YEAR.

Maybe the way there used to be B&W and Colour licences, there could be regular and HD licence as HD simulcast will cost twice the cost EVERY YEAR of the inital PSB free mux.

If you nearly fill the PSB Mux you need about 2 extra mux for the same content in HD. There would have to be SD & HD simulcast for maybe 10 years, unless all setboxes /TVs do HD reception and downconversion from day1. That's not going to happen.

The only non-subscription Irish TV is RTE1, RTE2, TV3 and TG4. The 3e and Setanta Ireland are PayTV only.

bk

Scottish paddy wrote: »

I presume all the all the MPEG 4 transmission equipment, or most of it has been bought by RTÉNL. I cannot see them now buying additional MPEG 2 equipment as well in the present climate.

MPEG4 broadcasting equipment is fully backwards compatible with MPEG2, so RTE could switch to MPEG2 over night if they wanted to, at no extra cost.

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

Anyone with 4 TV's in the house probably can afford STB's. Most people i know have only one TV, Hey, maybe i'm underprivileged!! I better contact David Beggs pronto!!!

In fairness, they've been collecting them over a very long time, they never throw anything out! Two are over 20 years old, one maybe almost 30 years old (they don't make tech like this anymore), another is a monitor off an old Amstrad CPC 6128 computer I had as a kid, with the external tuner attached and the siblings and I chipped in to buy them a newer, but still relatively cheap TV, two Christmas ago.

No fancy HD or LCD TV's, all old CRT monsters.

So no, they wouldn't really be able to afford 4 STB's + PVR to go MPEG4. If they don't get help from the government, then my siblings and I will need to pay for it.

Elmo

Lets face it by the time DTT happens Mpeg4 stbs AND tv will at the 12euro point

mjsmyth

As it happens, a DVB-T Mpeg 4 Tuner can be got for just under 110 euro here:
http://www.dipolnet.com/hd_dvb-t_tuner_t-501_mpeg-4__A99078.htm

I take your point though, it could be costly to upgrade all the TV's in a B&B or small hotel for the DSO. It could be that a distributed system might offer better value in the long term.

You talk about hearing the fan blowing away on your Sky box. On my Bush Freesat HD, there is no fan and whilst the box can get warm to touch, it is by no means dangerously hot. I would offer that perhaps it is not just the chip in the Sky HD Box that creates the heat, it is a combination of dual tuners, hard drive and the chip.

As Elmo says, by the time analogue is switched off here, the prices of the receivers will have dropped dramatically. For example, a Freesat HD box can be bought for under £100 now, at launch, they were £150 minimum.

We have at least 2.5 years to go before analogue gets switched off. That,s another 2.5 years for prices to drop and that would be another 2.5 years on to the age of Mpeg2.

In my opinion and it is only my opinion, over the coming years I would imagine mpeg2 chips will fade from the market and be replaced with mpeg4 chips which are capable of decoding mpeg2.

What that would mean is that in 3 years when we are all hopefully settling down to watch our DTT, regardless of even if we had chosen mpeg2, the chip inside the receiver would be mpeg4 compatible.

MJ

watty

In reality there could be FOUR years or FIVE years before an Analogue TV HAS to get a SetBox.

A Hotel or Guest house can use analogue modulators and pipe 10 Satellite receiver and 4 DTT channels via one coax. Many already do the UK channels that way, So even if they have 50 TVs they only need one DTT box per channel.

MPEG2 only chipsets are obsolete now. New models will all be MPEG4/MPEG2 from now on. No more expensive for new designs.

Andy454 wrote: »

I

Watty, why don't we have a poll to end this war of the formats - Those who can already recieve mpeg 2 signals and those who would be willing to shell out for an mpeg4 reciever?

You confusing HD and MPEG4.

MPEG4/MPEG2 chips *NOW* are similar price to MPEG2 only chips.

MPEG2 is HISTORY. That is a fact. ANY new rollout is going to be MPEG4[/B]

ynotdu

watty wrote: »

You confusing HD and MPEG4.

MPEG4/MPEG2 chips *NOW* are similar price to MPEG2 only chips.


MPEG2 is HISTORY. That is a fact. ANY new rollout is going to be MPEG4

or do i need mpeg2 on my radiogramme?