Keelboat Questions

cfitz

Hi, apologies if this kind of question comes up here regularly, but I'm having trouble finding an answer.

I understand that dinghies are small sailboats that can usually be manned by one person, don't have sleeping facilities, and can capsize easily.

And I believe yachts are larger sailboats that need a number of people to sail, may have lots of berths and facilities.

So my question is about keelboats - are there keelboats with 1/2 berths that can be manned by just one person? Also, am I right in assuming that any boat with a berth is not the type of boat that should capsize easily?

Thank you!

Tabnabs

Sounds like you're after a daysailer. Anything in the 17 to 21 foot range is easily singlehanded. Although any boat up to 40+ foot can be singlehanded with skill and patience.

cfitz

Excellent, thanks. So, what experience/courses might one need to be fit to rent one of those?

Tabnabs

You won't be able to rent any boat for singlehanded sailing I would imagine (unless a small dinghy).

You would be better off doing a week long beginners sailing course, maybe a bit of crewing and then buy a suitable boat yourself if you have the means and still have the interest.

cfitz

Dyflin wrote: »

You won't be able to rent any boat for singlehanded sailing I would imagine (unless a small dinghy).

You would be better off doing a week long beginners sailing course, maybe a bit of crewing and then buy a suitable boat yourself if you have the means and still have the interest.

I'm planning on doing a few months travelling with my wife and I thought maybe it would be interesting to do a course/get some experience and then go do a month's sailing on the Mediterranean. Perhaps I was being a little too ambitious...

Tabnabs

Definitely. If you have no experience, then anything other than a mill pond is not a good idea for a couple of novices. The alternative is to look at skipper charters where the boat comes with an expert.

Or have a look at Sunsail and similar large UK owned (med based) flotillas where training and hiring can be done as part of a package. But if you mrs isn't interested in being hands on, then forget it, she will walk off in protest the first time you shout at her (trust me! )

cfitz

Dyflin wrote: »

Definitely. If you have no experience, then anything other than a mill pond is not a good idea for a couple of novices. The alternative is to look at skipper charters where the boat comes with an expert.

Or have a look at Sunsail and similar large UK owned (med based) flotillas where training and hiring can be done as part of a package. But if you mrs isn't interested in being hands on, then forget it, she will walk off in protest the first time you shout at her (trust me! )

Those Sunsail Flotillas look good, but along with the lessons it would probably work out a bit expensive. Do sailing skills transfer well upwards - if I spent some time sailing dinghies this year, would that prepare me well for sailing something bigger a year later? Or is it just that it takes a few years to become competent and there's no point in me searching for shortcuts?

conolan

Try a week sailing lesson in Glenans Baltimore. They have 5.7M keelboats and you can graduate to larger cruising yachts. Lots of fun.

cfitz

conolan wrote: »

Try a week sailing lesson in Glenans Baltimore. They have 5.7M keelboats and you can graduate to larger cruising yachts. Lots of fun.

I had been looking at the Competent Crew course in Carlingford Sailing School. But I'm trying to figure how far a sailing course will get me - after I've done a course what will I be capable of? How much more experience will I need to gain before I can sail on my own?

Tabnabs

Learning with small boats to sail yachts is a bit like learning to drive in a ford fiesta and then being given a small truck to drive. The theory is the same, but in practice it's a fair bit different. :pac:

Pigeon Reaper

The amount of experience depends on the type of sailing you wish to do. What type of boat, conditions, distance etc. There are no real shortcuts with sailing if you want to be safe but certainly getting day skipper or coastal skipper is a good idea if you plan on Med cruising. Sailing a dinghy on a sunny calm day in a bay will be very different to sailing the same boat in mid winter during a race and almost completely different to safely navigating a night passage offshore. The first step should be getting out on a few boats with your wife anywhere you can. The idea of sailing can be very different to the reality especially if you realise you don't like the boat heeling.

cfitz

Pigeon Reaper wrote: »

The amount of experience depends on the type of sailing you wish to do. What type of boat, conditions, distance etc. There are no real shortcuts with sailing if you want to be safe but certainly getting day skipper or coastal skipper is a good idea if you plan on Med cruising. Sailing a dinghy on a sunny calm day in a bay will be very different to sailing the same boat in mid winter during a race and almost completely different to safely navigating a night passage offshore. The first step should be getting out on a few boats with your wife anywhere you can. The idea of sailing can be very different to the reality especially if you realise you don't like the boat heeling.

Yeah I suppose there's not much point in making big plans if it ends up that we don't like it at all. For a bit of background to my situation:

Our interest in sailing would be for casual holidaying. Perhaps a powered boat would be a better option for us but I think sailing might be more rewarding. Last year we really enjoyed a half hour cruise on a small felucca on the Nile in Cairo and I remember watching the sailor doing his manoeuvres and thinking that's the life just cruising around there everyday in the breeze!

So I suppose that's the feeling I'm looking to get! I like the idea of having some independance and not be reliant on joining up with a big crew. Not looking to race or anything. And the luxury of not getting thrown into the water would be nice. I thought that if it was something we learned to do now, we could go for a sail when on holidays in the future if the mood took us.

Pete67

Definately go down to Glenans in Baltimore - they run 1 week residental courses in 5.7 metre keelboats. Accomodation is hostel style in the base. You will learn a lot, have great craic and most importantly get a feel for how much further you will want to go with your sailing.

Link here

conolan

My partner and I go casual holidaying on our 25ft keelboat. The last two years we set out for Scilly Isles and ended up in Wales. You go where the wind goes. Absolutely love it though.
Fine weekends in summer are spend swinging on a mooring near Fethard Co. Wexford, about 3-4 hours sailing from Dunmore East. We even have a private beach we can use which is inaccessible from the land. magic.

miss no stars

cfitz, where are you based? If you're in Dublin this might be of interest: http://hyc.ie/news/newsview.asp?newsid=454

it's a nice introduction to sailing and they go out in different sized boats every week. My mother did it and found it very good - she had only been out with my dad and I in a small keelboat before and hated the sensation, but thoroughly enjoyed being in a larger (dryer and more stable) boat. It'd be useful so you can see what you like best before pouring money into something you may end up hating.

miss no stars

by the way, in terms of what will get your furthest, the simple and annoying answer is - experience.

There's only so much a course can teach you, it can't teach familiarity and a feel for the conditions. In terms of building up skills, I'd do a keelboat course. Don't bother with competent crew, if you're in any way inclined to helm it's not going to take you very far at all. You need to learn in something small enough that you can feel the boat properly, too.

cfitz

I'm in the midlands and I'm not even close to the Shannon nevermind the sea! I might try to find a course that I can do while I'm away - there seems to be companies doing english speaking courses in Malta, Spain, Croatia etc.

Talent

Skerries Sailing Club does a series of free lectures in the Springtime and gives attendees the chance to get out for a tiral sail or two afterwards. If they join the club they will get further sailing opportunities.

cfitz

Hey everyone, sorry I'm back again with more questions. I realise it must be tedious to read my posts - all talk and no action! I'd really like to get some sailing experience before I travel abroad in September, so I'm thinking a 'Start Sailing' Dinghy course is the simplest way to get some quick hands-on experience and get my foot on the first rung of the ladder. So, questions :

Cheapest courses available that I can see are about 220 EUR for a 2 day course. Is that about the best price I'll get?

Is the pass rate high? If most people can pass this in 2 days I reckon I can too, but I've no previous sailing experience.

Any general advice?

Thanks again, and sorry for the never-ending questions!

dlofnep

Start Sailing is the ISA course I believe. It's a 4 day course. There are 4 levels - That's the first one. From the description - it will give you the skills required to sail with assistance from your instructor.. The second level allows you to sail solo under light conditions. So maybe the first 2 levesl might be a good foundation?

Talent

Always regard Level one and two as a very basic beginning. You then need to progress to practice, pracice and even more practice. Sailing has a fairly steep learning curve even after acquiring the basis Get lots and lots of experience under your belt. Join a club if you can and haunt it for chances to get out sailing. Or, if you can afford it, buy a little boat yourself and go sailing whenever you can. It doesn't matter what kind of boat, a simple little Topper dinghy (or a Topaz or a Pico), a Laser 4.7, a Mirror Dinghy, even.

What side of town are you? I'm sure people on the board can give you recommendations for clubs.

cfitz

Talent wrote: »

Always regard Level one and two as a very basic beginning. You then need to progress to practice, pracice and even more practice. Sailing has a fairly steep learning curve even after acquiring the basis Get lots and lots of experience under your belt. Join a club if you can and haunt it for chances to get out sailing. Or, if you can afford it, buy a little boat yourself and go sailing whenever you can. It doesn't matter what kind of boat, a simple little Topper dinghy (or a Topaz or a Pico), a Laser 4.7, a Mirror Dinghy, even.

What side of town are you? I'm sure people on the board can give you recommendations for clubs.

Getting my own boat would be nice, but I'd still need some help had to start, so I'll have to figure out what's most cost effective. Dublin would be the most convenient coast for me, coming in from the M7. Otherwise, somewhere on the Shannon might suit - Banagher and Portumna would be a similar distance for me as well. I'm nowhere near water!

cfitz

Hi all,

I got my Level 2 Dinghy certificate, so I want to say thanks for all the helpful advice! Really appreciate it.

Now, where do I go from here... my goal is to be able to sail something like a West Wight Potter 15 single-handed - how much experience will I need?
It's not really practical for me to get out on the water every week - probably more like once every 3 weeks, so at that rate about how long will it take to reach my goal?
I'm thinking I should stick with dinghies for a while anyway - but should I move to bigger boats at some stage, or will I be able to jump straight from a dinghy to a 15ft sloop?

As usual, any help appreciated

Thanks!

Talent

If you are planning to get and sail your own boat I'd stick with dinghies if you can. Anything will do just to improve your skills. Join a sailing club if you fiind one nearby and try a bit of racing, there's nothing like it for improving skills, even if you always finish last.

I'm curious as to why you chose the West Wight Potter as a boat. For a start the price (new) seems a bit steep for what is basically a scaled up dinghy. Indeed I sail a dinghy which is slightly bigger than it! Another thing to remember is that that boat has a cabin squeezed into a very small length so your cockpit size is reduced accordingly. That's OK if you intend to sail alone, perhaps, but if you are going out with the family there's not much cockpit room. If you want a pocket keelboat I'd be inclined to go for an 18 footer as a minimum although it will be more difficult to trail and launch which is where, I suppose, the Potter comes into its own.

Talent

I should add that the upskilling needed to go from a small dinghy to the POtter is very minimal indeed. If you can sail one it won't take you very long to sail the other.

cfitz

Thanks Talent.
The reason I chose the Potter was because it was the smallest boat with sleeping accommodation that I could find (and it looks nice ) - I figured it'd be the easiest to sail??
The plan would be that I could bring my non-sailing wife out on the water when we're on holidays. Right now there's just the two of us, but I suppose it's worth keeping in mind the possibility of more in the future!

I'm delighted to hear that the step from dinghy to Potter is minimal. Would it be a much bigger step to competently single-hand an 18ft boat?

Talent

Size is less of an issue than performance. The Potter is a sedate craft, and doesn't require any special skills to control it. It's like stepping up from from an Austin Mini to a Hiace van. It will take a few minutes to get used to the larger size but after that the driving is exactly the same.

If there's just you and your wife, it should be ideal, especially if you have to trail it every time you go sailing.

cfitz

Ok, so humour me - I've got my Level 2 Dinghy cert, so suppose I go out sailing every so often to try hone my skills a little bit; to play it safe we'll imagine that I've no natural flair for it (though secretly I imagine I'm a bit of a Jack Sparrow :cool:) - about how long might it be before I wouldn't be a danger to myself, others, my boat, or the property of others?!

kmick

The issue is this
1) You sail dinghies every three weeks on a Lough in the midlands. The dinghy cost you 2k and most weeknds you are out the winds are nice and light.
2) You decide to buy a 30k second hand 30ft Beneteau Sailing Yacht. You set out from the mouth of the Shannnon one day and within an hour its gale force winds (you forgot to check the forecast) you sail out into the middle of the shipping channel and container ship cleaves you in two leaving you and you wife in the drink.

So the lesson is this. The potential for an accident in a small dinghy in a lough is much less than a medium at sea. You have to be able to read maps, navigate, go alongside, radio communications, plot a course, make sure you have diesel, water, provisions all of these are learned from watching someone else do it. You dont have that. So sail your dinghy and get used to it for a couple of years. when you are ready crew on an experienced boat for another couple of years. Sit Up, Crawl, Walk. Patience.

cfitz

kmick wrote: »

So the lesson is this. The potential for an accident in a small dinghy in a lough is much less than a medium at sea. You have to be able to read maps, navigate, go alongside, radio communications, plot a course, make sure you have diesel, water, provisions all of these are learned from watching someone else do it. You dont have that. So sail your dinghy and get used to it for a couple of years. when you are ready crew on an experienced boat for another couple of years. Sit Up, Crawl, Walk. Patience.

So you reckon about 4 years altogether, including both dinghy sailing and yacht crewing...

kmick

yeah maybe three if you are a fast learner. Dinghies teach you HOW to sail but as you rightly pointed out in a very wet and uncomfortable manner. Cruisers add a bit of comfort but a lot more responsibilty.

cfitz

kmick wrote: »

yeah maybe three if you are a fast learner. Dinghies teach you HOW to sail but as you rightly pointed out in a very wet and uncomfortable manner. Cruisers add a bit of comfort but a lot more responsibilty.

Well I better get going so if I don't want to be an old man before I start cruising!

Tabnabs

I've been in a dinghy maybe twice. I am a keen amateur sailor with my own boat. I crewed for one season on a friends boat. Then after a season of crewing with friends on my boat, I decided to try singlehanding as I couldn't always get crew. Dinghy sailing isn't the be all and end all route for learning to sail. Learning from your own mistakes on top of advice from others is a well worn path too.

That little Potter boat you are looking at is a mistake IMHO. It's too small. You're mrs will laugh at you if you think she will overnight in it, there's more space in your car than that cabin. It's brand new so you will loose money when you go to sell it. For 3/4/5k euros you can buy a really good little second hand yacht that you will sell on for similar money in a few years.

I highly recommend a coastal skipper night course too, it will teach you all about tides, navigation, passage planning, weather, all the interesting stuff on yachts/motor boats.

I would also highly recommend you join the YBW.com forums. There is a universe of information on there. Use the search button to look back on small boat singlehanding or any other subject you can think off, it's been discussed over there.

Above all, I would recommend to get out on bigger boats (and anything is bigger than a dinghy!) to get the feel of it, "try before you buy".

ValerieR

Maybe plan to do courses during the winter too such as the yachtmaster and a VHF course. They require a bit of time but are well worth it.
Valerie

cfitz

ValerieR wrote: »

Maybe plan to do courses during the winter too such as the yachtmaster and a VHF course. They require a bit of time but are well worth it.
Valerie

Is it best to build up sailing experience before doing these courses? Or is it a good idea to get the courses done then get out and practice? (Even the course title: 'Yachtmaster' sounds a bit daunting at this stage!)

cfitz

Dyflin wrote: »

I've been in a dinghy maybe twice. I am a keen amateur sailor with my own boat. I crewed for one season on a friends boat. Then after a season of crewing with friends on my boat, I decided to try singlehanding as I couldn't always get crew. Dinghy sailing isn't the be all and end all route for learning to sail. Learning from your own mistakes on top of advice from others is a well worn path too.

That little Potter boat you are looking at is a mistake IMHO. It's too small. You're mrs will laugh at you if you think she will overnight in it, there's more space in your car than that cabin. It's brand new so you will loose money when you go to sell it. For 3/4/5k euros you can buy a really good little second hand yacht that you will sell on for similar money in a few years.

I highly recommend a coastal skipper night course too, it will teach you all about tides, navigation, passage planning, weather, all the interesting stuff on yachts/motor boats.

I would also highly recommend you join the YBW.com forums. There is a universe of information on there. Use the search button to look back on small boat singlehanding or any other subject you can think off, it's been discussed over there.

Above all, I would recommend to get out on bigger boats (and anything is bigger than a dinghy!) to get the feel of it, "try before you buy".

Thanks for the tips. By the way, my wife has seen some pictures of the Potter, but perhaps when she saw it in real life her reaction might be like you've suggested! Anyway, I won't be in a position to purchase for quite a while and I could do a weekend charter holiday in a Potter at some stage if I am close to buying one.

At the moment I'm just trying to make sure that I take the quickest path towards my goal - to be able to sail a boat with sleeping facilities single-handed.

bmoregan

Hi Cfitz - There's nothing wrong with web-surfing for ideas but I really recommend just getting out on the water !

I'd done 2 weeks as a kid in a sailing school and in my 30s knew I wanted to get into sailing with no idea how. I did a 3-evening "Intro to Sailing" with one of the clubs in Dun Laoghaire (DMYC) which is basically an opportunity to get the phone numbers of a few skippers who race on Thursdays/Saturdays.
If you buy your own wet-gear and show up ON-TIME you get to go "round-the-cans" for a few hours.

The reason I mention it is because I didnt really "learn to sail" (i.e. in terms of being able to control a sailboat) until later when I bought my own dinghy (a Fireball) and raced it. However, once you get on a "yacht" and start bouncing around in a Force 5 - even in Dublin Bay - you wont know if coastal sailing is "your thing".

I've not done a lot of Inland Sailing but I do know its much nicer capsizing a dinghy in fresh water than salt :-)