Supplements are unnecessary

Transform

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/0421/1224245063669.html

Had to post this - yesterdays irish times.

I personally could not do what i do without supplements and know i feel and train better on them than off

floggg

Transform wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/0421/1224245063669.html

Had to post this - yesterdays irish times.

I personally could not do what i do without supplements and know i feel and train better on them than off

Out of curiosity, what supplements do you take?

Effluo

I find the irish times produces an awful lot of tripe these days.

Sometimes they just pick a popular topic to sell newspapers and then print a 3 page article, 3/4's of it pictures and graphs based on no backing up of points or indeed missing the point altogether and written poorly.

They do dissapoint me sometimes...

Hanley

Effluo wrote: »

I find the irish times produces an awful lot of tripe these days.

Sometimes they just pick a popular topic to sell newspapers and then print a 3 page article, 3/4's of it pictures and graphs based on no backing up of points or indeed missing the point altogether and written poorly.

They do dissapoint me sometimes...

You're thinking of the indo...

There's absoultely no-where in the Irish press to get reliable reporting that hasn't been skewed by personal agendas and mis-interpretation of data. The SBP is about the most reliable I suppose....

Roper

Transform wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/0421/1224245063669.html

Had to post this - yesterdays irish times.

I personally could not do what i do without supplements and know i feel and train better on them than off

A good article. What it does not mention is players with specific weight requirements. For example a corner forward may have a natural weight of 80kgs and that being around his optimal weight to play in that position. But what about a kid who is tall with ambitions to play at 7 in Rugby? He needs to be about 100kgs. Can he do that with food? Of course, if he can if he prepares his meals in advance etc. etc. but he probably also goes to college, does a bar job at the weekends and then does his training so if he wants to maybe one day get paid for the privelege of playing he'll have to keep that weight up with shakes.

That being said, proper nutrition is 100% the most neglected item for pretty much everyone, be they athletes or just gym rats. Someone will spend hours on the interweb researching and going through endless product stats of various shakes and formulas to find the perfect one but none of them could tell you what they eat before training, or after training, or how many calories they consume per day.

amacachi

Most of what's brought up in that article mirrors the advice often given on this board, ie. for most people getting the diet sorted is key.

There is way too much hype on supplements, everyone knows that. A mate of mine was having a couple of takeaways a week and loads of other crap, meanwhile he spent a few hundred quid on protein and other supplements which was basically the same as paying for expensive bowel movements.

itsallaboutheL

amacachi wrote: »

Most of what's brought up in that article mirrors the advice often given on this board, ie. for most people getting the diet sorted is key.

There is way too much hype on supplements, everyone knows that. A mate of mine was having a couple of takeaways a week and loads of other crap, meanwhile he spent a few hundred quid on protein and other supplements which was basically the same as paying for expensive bowel movements.

just coz your eating **** doesn't mean you should punish yourself by not getting enough protein in....... that would be pretty stupid TBH!!

telemachus

I was mildly amused by their idea of a "huge" daily calorie intake

"Gavin has a huge calorie intake on training days. He has cereal for breakfast, a ham and cheese roll at lunchtime and then a pasta dish at about 4pm. The players are provided with a hot dinner after training, usually curry or lasagne at about 8pm."

amacachi

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

just coz your eating **** doesn't mean you should punish yourself by not getting enough protein in....... that would be pretty stupid TBH!!

He was getting easily enough protein for the amount of exercise he was doing tho.

rubadub

“Every sport is different too – the advice that is relevant for rugby training won’t be relevant for GAA. You see a lot of recommendations around protein supplements but, in my opinion, men playing an intermittent sport like football are getting enough dietary protein if they are eating meat, fish, eggs and dairy.”

Whey protein IS dairy...

It is also an ingredient in many off the shelf foods now.

To me if you are supplementing your diet it means something you would not ordinarily eat if you were not training. Many have to "supplement" their diet with extra meat etc. To me whey should not be included as it is just a refined protein from dairy, just like grape juice is refined carbohydrate from fruit. I would call creatine a supplement even though it is in meat I would not say that I "eat" it. I enjoy whey shakes at any time I would still buy it if I gave up training.

maxxie

I am naturally a small eater so without supplements I would struggle to get in the neccesary requirement! When taken with a good training routine you should certainly see improved results than if you were to go the natural route! Not only that put you would save yourself a fortune.

itsallaboutheL

amacachi wrote: »

He was getting easily enough protein for the amount of exercise he was doing tho.

You didn't say that!

Roper

maxxie wrote: »

I am naturally a small eater so without supplements I would struggle to get in the neccesary requirement!

What is a "naturally small eater".

kevpants

telemachus wrote: »

I was mildly amused by their idea of a "huge" daily calorie intake

"Gavin has a huge calorie intake on training days. He has cereal for breakfast, a ham and cheese roll at lunchtime and then a pasta dish at about 4pm. The players are provided with a hot dinner after training, usually curry or lasagne at about 8pm."

I've become so detached from normal people we tend to just stare at eachother in restaurants now. I can't get over how little some of my friends eat. A bowl of soup for lunch....kill me now! We get crappy subsidised lunches in work and some people go on about how it's great to have a dinner in the middle of the day so you can just have toast later on. WTF? I'm usually eyeing up leftovers on their plates by this stage. If I was forced to live with these people I think i'd end up eating them.

Buffets in particular cause quite the discussion.

kevpants

Roper wrote: »

What is a "naturally small eater".

He's a titmouse...

Roper

kevpants banned for personal abuse.

amacachi

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

You didn't say that!

Sorry?

rubadub

Roper wrote: »

What is a "naturally small eater".

Some people simply do not like eating. There are lots out there, there was a thread before, I think a user called Wibbs said he could go days without eating.

I have 2 skinny mates who do not appear to enjoy eating, they attack food when they get it, never savour it. One lad downs peanuts by the fistful, I never have heard either of them comment on food tasting nice or anything. They also sometimes just pick at it, leaving loads behind and only eating stuff they can barely stand. Some see eating as a chore, like having to go to a petrol station and fill the car.

I on the other hand am a glutton!:pac::pac: and get to finish all the stuff they don't

maxxie

funny guy kevpants :rolleyes:

Roper

My point is that if you're serious about training then you overcome things like "I'm a small eater" or "I like burgers" and you regulate your diet to match your goals.

There are many, many more benefits that food has over supplements. We're not just talking about calories here. Some examples are nutrients, fibre, TASTE!, to make supplements pallatable they have to include a sweetener which is usualy artificial, and then there's the pure enjoyment of sitting down to a meal with your loved ones to argue over who did or did not forget to put a tag on the bin this morning when clearly it couldn't have been me because I was first out and the shops weren't open at 5.30am this morning and I know you had to drop the kid off but couldn't you have got it on your way?

Food is better. When you have that sorted, start to supplement if you need to. But you probably don't need to.

kevpants

maxxie wrote: »

funny guy kevpants :rolleyes:

Those rolleyes cut me. They cut me deep.

eroo

Transform wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/0421/1224245063669.html

Had to post this - yesterdays irish times.

I personally could not do what i do without supplements and know i feel and train better on them than off

Didn't even read past the opening sentence. The Irish media's opinions on supplements matter very little to me.

maxxie

kevpants wrote: »

Those rolleyes cut me. They cut me deep.

haha good! shame there is no fcuk you smilie or your a fool smilie...

itsallaboutheL

:D \o/ there a ura **** smiley??

kevpants

maxxie wrote: »

haha good! shame there is no your a fool smilie...

Or a "Yuo catn spel smillei"

maxxie

kevpants wrote: »

Or a "Yuo catn spel smillei"

That is just ridiculous kevinpants!

Transform

maxxie wrote: »

That is just ridiculous kevinpants!

LMAO

PeakOutput

of course i you can do everything supplements do with 'real food' because the supplements are just a different type of food be it a concentrated form(not talking about creatine i dont know enough about it)

the point is they are convenient relatively cheap if you shop around and as far as i am concerned no worse than 'real food'.

now if someone can show me research to the contrary my opinion will change but i dont think your body knows if its getting its omega 3 from a fish or a capsule or its dairy protein from whey or milk

d-gal

Had to laugh at your man with the high calorie intake on training days. I'd have that amount of calories consumed by midday!
The article just proves how far behind Ireland is with supplements. Even things like banning no-xplode but it's available in the UK & USA. Funny how you hear the Irish Experts saying it is dangerous for your heart and other organs yet a new fast food joint opens up every week :rolleyes:
Food is essential but a highly trained individual needs supplements, no ifs are buts about it. Like Transform said you feel better with supplements

kumate_champ07

im waiting for the day when some pro strength/bodybuilding athlete has an ad in a magazine/website with 'Sponsored by O' Gradys Butchers'

joepenguin

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

im waiting for the day when some pro strength/bodybuilding athlete has an ad in a magazine/website with 'Sponsored by O' Gradys Butchers'

On a local level that would be a very good idea!

joepenguin

telemachus wrote: »

I was mildly amused by their idea of a "huge" daily calorie intake

"Gavin has a huge calorie intake on training days. He has cereal for breakfast, a ham and cheese roll at lunchtime and then a pasta dish at about 4pm. The players are provided with a hot dinner after training, usually curry or lasagne at about 8pm."

Id say it would be pretty standard alright, enough to maintain bodyweight while training.


What really grinds my gears is the whole idea of balanced diet vs evil supplements. Many athletes / fitness enthusiasts know fine well that supplements are just to, well... supplement your diet.

Oh and the sly way they qouted a website saying the notion of 3 meals a day is the thing of the past... well yes it is, it should be 5-6 meals per day. So now they have people thinking supp companies are against meals or something.

Lets take Gavins diet as an example... If he did it out himself and is trying to eat healthy then fair play, you are on the right track.

However if this was done by a professional I think my little blue friend says it best.....:rolleyes:

Cereal for breakfast... really? what kind, porridge, wheatabix?... My money is on crunchy nut or something.

Ham and cheese roll for lunch... ok some protein, carbs and fat, how much of that fat is saturated? Im guessing most of it. Much veg in it? and how about the roll, is it wholemeal?

Pre workout meal is a pasta dish. This is decent, he looks to be having a high carb meal before training for fuel. We wont look into this any further and give top marks.

Post workout... a lasagne... a freakin lasagne? If we have learned anything from Garfield its that lasagne is not the leanest of meals. Again this is a heavy meal which would take quite a while to digest. Chicken curry is fair enough, simple carbs and protein... this is good.

Oh and protein in bottles and tubs are bad but sugar in a bottle is to be taken by the crate load? I thought water was the best? so why not have that by the tap load? lucozade sport is a supplement after all. (not knocking lucozade sport, it has its place of course)

Why not encourage him to make a smoothie or juice? because he is certainly lacking in that department, what about healthy fats? fibre? Suddenly this doesnt look like the most balanced of diets.

So again, if Gavin made up this plan, fair play, do a bit more reading, make a few adjustments and you are good. If a professional made it up... as above is suppose

Transform

i have a few scholarship athletes i train and i would say all of them had a terrible diet before i worked with them. Its one thing to talk about a good diet but a whole different thing is an optimal sports performance diet.

In regards to supplements v's real food - well i find it easier for the guys and girls i deal with to take a protein drink (whey) and carbs after training than a chicken fillet with carbs. Its just bloody practical and ideal for the situation

MagicMarker

If I eat any more chicken fillets I'll start shítting eggs tbh. A simple protein shake is just a huge convenience.

brianthebard

Even if I wanted to I couldn't get all my protein from meat, it would be too expensive at present. Food makes up the largest part of my weekly spending (as a student) and having a protein shake represents good value for money imo.

J.S. Pill

kevpants wrote: »

I've become so detached from normal people we tend to just stare at eachother in restaurants now. I can't get over how little some of my friends eat. A bowl of soup for lunch....kill me now! We get crappy subsidised lunches in work and some people go on about how it's great to have a dinner in the middle of the day so you can just have toast later on. WTF? I'm usually eyeing up leftovers on their plates by this stage. If I was forced to live with these people I think i'd end up eating them.

Buffets in particular cause quite the discussion.

I hear that. My housemate is 5 9" and 10 stone; I calculated he eats about 1800 calories a day. How has he not withered away to nothing??

J-Fit

J.S. Pill wrote: »

I hear that. My housemate is 5 9" and 10 stone; I calculated he eats about 1800 calories a day. How has he not withered away to nothing??

Because that sounds just about right for a guy his size to maintain.

Aedh Baclamh

I get lots of questions from parents on this and my advice is always the same – there is no evidence that these things increase performance

Really?

Khannie

floggg wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what supplements do you take?

I'm gonna bump this. Would be interested in your answer (it was aimed at Transform).

Transform

Khannie wrote: »

I'm gonna bump this. Would be interested in your answer (it was aimed at Transform).

will post up in detail later or tomorrow sorry nuts busy right now

injured365

When I read this:
"I get lots of questions from parents on this and my advice is always the same – there is no evidence that these things increase performance "

It made me think that the times were fairly picky in what quotes they used from niall moyna as that statement is completely untrue. There is evidence that the right supplements used correctly can improve performance with little or no detrimental effects to health.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16766503

Interesting piece on that site, the full article goes into a lot more detail and scientific proof.

Transform

Transform wrote: »

will post up in detail later or tomorrow sorry nuts busy right now

The following is what supplements and how i eat most days. This is NOT an example as to how others should eat just how I eat/supplement.

Daily - 6g fish oils, digestive enzymes with most big meals, antioxidant formula, phyllium husks (4-6per day), aloe vera juice, noni juice and a liquid mineral formula, probiotic (super 5's or 8's), beyond greens and udo's oil in smoothies or just in a glass of water, apple cider vinegar in water once a day, whey protein (optimum nutrition), glutamine, a carb drink for workouts (cytomax)

Every 2-3days - i aim to juice daily but this does not always happen. when it does it is usually carrot, apple, celery, lemon, ginger or any other veggies like peppers etc.

Monthly - normally take a detox herbal mix (made by herbalist) once every 2-3 months to give bowels a clear out. I know when i need this when my bowel movements become irregular, skin gets spotty and i feel overfull after meals.

Main diet - on days when i have a silliy number of clients i live on my homemade flapjacks (oats, seeds, dried fruit etc) and vanilla protein from optimum nutrition. Outside of that is natual peanut butter and oatcakes for bfast, flapjacks or fruit and nuts for snacks, salad or part of yesterdays dinner for lunch and healthy dinners. I drink good quality coffee on hard workout days but do not drink any on easier days as i want a good boost when i need it. Green tea, peppermint, aveda or rooibos otherwise. 1-2 pieces of dark chocolate most days or none if feeling off. Alcohol - 1-2 beers or glasses of wine (not both) some weeks but can go for a few weeks with nothing just depends on events.

Hope this helps and as mentioned is not a recommendation i just do not leave much to chance and am very very prepared (as is my wife so that helps)

brianthebard

Interesting stuff transform. You have a lot more supps than I would've expected, but considering your background I think you know more than most what you need and don't need.

On a related supps topic, since I ran out of whey I've noticed more doms and they last a bit longer. Is this because I'm not getting as much protein? Nothing else in my diet has changed. Just general question.

Rocket!

Transform wrote: »

Monthly - normally take a detox herbal mix (made by herbalist) once every 2-3 months to give bowels a clear out. I know when i need this when my bowel movements become irregular, skin gets spotty and i feel overfull after meals.

Where do you get this done if you dont mind me asking? Can it be got at any Chinese herbalist?

Rocket!

brianthebard wrote: »

Interesting stuff transform. You have a lot more supps than I would've expected, but considering your background I think you know more than most what you need and don't need.

On a related supps topic, since I ran out of whey I've noticed more doms and they last a bit longer. Is this because I'm not getting as much protein? Nothing else in my diet has changed. Just general question.

Its probably because of the fact that most whey proteins contain a high amount of bcaas such as glutamine, arginine, lycine etc and these definitely aid in the prevention of DOMS. They could of course be supplemented separately, but whey is usually sufficient for most people's needs.

amazingemmet

Rocket! wrote: »

Its probably because of the fact that most whey proteins contain a high amount of bcaas such as glutamine, arginine, lycine

Hmmmmm:cool:

nodolan

It has been widely proven (time and again) that food today is catastrophically deficient in nutrients (before it is cooked) - everything from fruit and veg to meat and dairy - they all contain fewer minerals and vitamins than what they used to contain - mostly due to intensive agriculture and animal rearing and due to processing as well as the forced and artificial way food is produced from the soil in the fields to the feed given to animals. Then we cook it and destroy even more of the nutrients.

It's also widely known that big business (pharmaceuticals) have a vested interest in trying to get more restrictions on our consumption of certain vitamins and minerals and that they are behind many of the totally biased studies that claim that massive doses of certain vitamins are bad for us when there is a huge body of evidence to prove that they can help even with cancer. St. John's Wort was supposed to be bad for us and now it's only available by prescription, in chemists, at low doses for high costs from pharma companies.

I take N-Acetyl L-Tyrosine, Copper Sebacate, Vitamin D-3, Omega 3-6-9, Chromium, Lutein, Lycopene, PABA, Pantethine, L-Phenylalanine and various other supplements on and off on a regular basis (depending on the time of the year also). I have done years of research on supplements and have great health (I'm constantly told I look ten years younger than I am). I also eat good food (in small doses) and enjoy regular nights out (and even smoke a few ciggies - natural tobacco ciggies from the USA) - but there's no way I would rely on supermarket bought food alone for my physical (and mental) well-being.

It's ironic but studies have shown that sunscreens contain carcinogenic chemicals yet we're told to use them and stay out of the sun - but in Australia they discovered that people were becoming deficient in Vitamin D because of staying out of the sun and that they were getting melanomas which were linked to, not sunshine, but deficiencies in Vitamin D.

Don't believe a word you read in the media - do your own intensive research and listen to your body - it knows best.

IMO of course

edit: I should mention that I buy all my supplements from www.iherb.com and I rate them 10/10 for service, price and delivery and if you use this referral code - DOL647 - you get $5 off and I get kudos from them (I already get 10% discount for being such a good customer).

kumate_champ07

nodolan wrote: »

St. John's Wort was supposed to be bad for us and now it's only available by prescription.

perhaps because of its dangerous interactions with prescription drugs? not everything is a conspiracy. all business is corrupt in some way

nodolan

To the best of my knowledge no one has ever died from taking SJW and no one has had serious health issues because of it. If someone takes SJW (an SSRI) while taking a prescription MAOI then they MIGHT have some problems but you would need to take very high doses for a considerable amount of time for a serious contraindication to manifest itself (AFAIK). I've been taking SJW for almost a decade (if not longer) with no side effects and took a break to try prescription medication (Seroxat) and that almost drove me mad.

Linus Pauling was one of the first (scientists) to recommend supplements (micro-nutrients) and he is one of only 4 individuals to have won multiple Nobel Prizes, the only one to win two in unrelated fields.

Awards and honours he received.

* 1931 Langmuir Prize, American Chemical Society
* 1941 Nichols Medal, New York Section, American Chemical Society
* 1947 Davy Medal, Royal Society
* 1948 United States Presidential Medal for Merit
* 1952 Pasteur Medal, Biochemical Society of France
* 1954 Nobel Prize in Chemistry
* 1955 Addis Medal, National Nephrosis Foundation
* 1955 Phillips Memorial Award, American College of Physicians
* 1956 Avogadro Medal, Italian Academy of Science
* 1957 Paul Sabatier Medal
* 1957 Pierre Fermat Medal in Mathematics
* 1957 International Grotius Medal
* 1961 Humanist of the Year, American Humanist Association
* 1962 Nobel Peace Prize
* 1965 Republic of Italy
* 1965 Medal, Academy of the Rumanian People's Republic
* 1966 Linus Pauling Medal
* 1966 Silver Medal, Institute of France
* 1966 Supreme Peace Sponsor, World Fellowship of Religion
* 1968 Lenin Peace Prize
* 1972 United States National Medal of Science
* 1972 International Lenin Peace Prize
* 1977 Lomonosov Gold Medal, USSR Academy of Science
* 1979 Medal for Chemical Sciences, National Academy of Science
* 1984 Priestley Medal, American Chemical Society
* 1984 Award for Chemistry, Arthur M. Sackler Foundation
* 1987 Award in Chemical Education, American Chemical Society
* 1989 Vannevar Bush Award, National Science Board
* 1990 Richard C. Tolman Medal, Southern California, Section, American Chemical Society
* 2008 "American Scientists" US stamp series, $0.41, for his sickle cell disease work

I'd run with his advice any day :cool:

Anyway, thanks for your reply to my post (even if you ignored 99% of it and lit upon the only bit you thought you might be able to poke a hole in).

kumate_champ07

nodolan wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge no one has ever died from taking SJW and no one has had serious health issues because of it. If someone takes SJW (an SSRI) while taking a prescription MAOI then they MIGHT have some problems but you would need to take very high doses for a considerable amount of time for a serious contraindication to manifest itself (AFAIK). I've been taking SJW for almost a decade (if not longer) with no side effects and took a break to try prescription medication (Seroxat) and that almost drove me mad.

Linus Pauling was one of the first (scientists) to recommend supplements (micro-nutrients) and he is one of only 4 individuals to have won multiple Nobel Prizes, the only one to win two in unrelated fields.

Awards and honours he received.

* 1931 Langmuir Prize, American Chemical Society
* 1941 Nichols Medal, New York Section, American Chemical Society
* 1947 Davy Medal, Royal Society
* 1948 United States Presidential Medal for Merit
* 1952 Pasteur Medal, Biochemical Society of France
* 1954 Nobel Prize in Chemistry
* 1955 Addis Medal, National Nephrosis Foundation
* 1955 Phillips Memorial Award, American College of Physicians
* 1956 Avogadro Medal, Italian Academy of Science
* 1957 Paul Sabatier Medal
* 1957 Pierre Fermat Medal in Mathematics
* 1957 International Grotius Medal
* 1961 Humanist of the Year, American Humanist Association
* 1962 Nobel Peace Prize
* 1965 Republic of Italy
* 1965 Medal, Academy of the Rumanian People's Republic
* 1966 Linus Pauling Medal
* 1966 Silver Medal, Institute of France
* 1966 Supreme Peace Sponsor, World Fellowship of Religion
* 1968 Lenin Peace Prize
* 1972 United States National Medal of Science
* 1972 International Lenin Peace Prize
* 1977 Lomonosov Gold Medal, USSR Academy of Science
* 1979 Medal for Chemical Sciences, National Academy of Science
* 1984 Priestley Medal, American Chemical Society
* 1984 Award for Chemistry, Arthur M. Sackler Foundation
* 1987 Award in Chemical Education, American Chemical Society
* 1989 Vannevar Bush Award, National Science Board
* 1990 Richard C. Tolman Medal, Southern California, Section, American Chemical Society
* 2008 "American Scientists" US stamp series, $0.41, for his sickle cell disease work

I'd run with his advice any day :cool:

Anyway, thanks for your reply to my post (even if you ignored 99% of it and lit upon the only bit you thought you might be able to poke a hole in).

thanks for that info, i already use vitamins and minerals. not everyone is out to get you.

im sure hes done alot of good work but his views on vitamin c werent correct or proved. and if we were to take every vitamin and nutrient that is recommended for good health we'd be popping pills 24/7

"Although Pauling's megavitamin claims lacked the evidence needed for acceptance by the scientific community, they have been accepted by large numbers of people who lack the scientific expertise to evaluate them. Thanks largely to Pauling's prestige, annual vitamin C sales in the United States have been in the hundreds of millions of dollars for many years. Pauling also played a role in the health food industry's successful campaign to weaken FDA consumer protections laws. The Linus Pauling Institute that bears his name has evolved into a respectable organization. But Pauling's irrational advice about supplements continues to lead people astray.">

nodolan

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

"Although Pauling's megavitamin claims lacked the evidence needed for acceptance by the scientific community, they have been accepted by large numbers of people who lack the scientific expertise to evaluate them. Thanks largely to Pauling's prestige, annual vitamin C sales in the United States have been in the hundreds of millions of dollars for many years. Pauling also played a role in the health food industry's successful campaign to weaken FDA consumer protections laws. The Linus Pauling Institute that bears his name has evolved into a respectable organization. But Pauling's irrational advice about supplements continues to lead people astray.">

From The New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/1994/08/28/opinion/l-studies-confirm-pauling-on-vitamin-c-s-anti-cancer-benefit-080756.html

Studies Confirm Pauling on Vitamin C's Anti-Cancer Benefit
Published: Sunday, August 28, 1994

To the Editor:

Your obituary of Linus C. Pauling (front page, Aug. 21) refers to the Nobel Prize winner's claim that vitamin C helps in the treatment of cancer. Your only comment is that a 1979 Mayo Clinic study of patients with advanced cancer showed no benefits from vitamin C, or ascorbic acid, and readers are likely to infer that the Mayo study ended the matter.

The report of a three-day symposium at the National Institutes of Health in 1990 on the relation between cancer and vitamin C noted that Dr. Gladys Block of the National Cancer Institute summarized current epidemiologic data on the role of ascorbic acid in cancer prevention. Dr. Block stated: "Of 46 reports on epidemiologic studies, 33 described significant protective effects on cancer mortality or incidence."

More recently, a study by Enstrom, Kanim and Klein in the journal Epidemiology (May 1992) investigated the general protective effects of vitamin C. The study followed 11,348 subjects for an average of 10 years, and reported a decrease of 12 percent in mortality from all causes for those who included a reasonable amount of fruits and vegetables in their diets, and a decrease of 27 percent for those who used a vitamin C supplement in addition to intake of fruits and vegetables.

For cardiovascular deaths, the decreases in mortality were 13 percent for the group consuming fruits and vegetables, and 36 percent for the vitamin C group.

No single study should be used as the definitive measure of the relationship among nutrition, vitamin supplements and health. The ideas of Linus Pauling will live on in research of the Linus Pauling Institute, as well as in the thousands of scientists and others around the world who have been influenced by him over many decades. STEPHEN LAWSON Chief Executive Officer Linus Pauling Institute of Science and Medicine Palo Alto, Calif., Aug. 23, 1994

Emphasis mine.