M24 Motorway?

Steviemak

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Right! - Enough of this meaningless BS about cities!!! :mad:

Now, let's talk about the N24!

Thanks

I agree a Motorway is probably too much to connect Limerick and Waterford 2+2 would more than suffice. Maybe even wide S2 with bypasses.

However, maybe I haven't been putting my point across clearly -

If we are building a brand new Motorway from Limerick to Cork (and it is deemed necessary by planners etc) then why not instead build a different Motorway that uses the current network more efficiently. The new M24's purpose will not be just to connect Limerick to Waterford but will also become the new Limerick to Cork Rd and Cork to Waterford rd. Therefore traffic levels on this new road will be higher than the M20 that would purely serve Limerick to Cork.

All three places (dare i use cities;) ) connected by one piece of instructure instead of unnecessarily building 3 ie a new 2+2 N24, an M20 and 2+2 N25 or M25 (not sure of latest plans for N25). Each place isn't big enough to justify individual connections in my opinion.

Gruffalo

Furet wrote: »

I would say that these are the Ozymandius-like claims of a parochial gombeen government. Cork (maybe barely) is a city - in, as I said, the commonly understood modern sense of the word.
Waterford is a town.
The statute book can call it what it likes; but the bottom line is that Waterford has a population of only 50,000, which is tiny in an EU context.

Ireland has a tiny population in an EU context. Does that mean that we are not a proper country? Maybe we should just be the suburb of Ireland.

I don't know why people from Waterford feel diminished by that fact. It's sad really. Do you feel lessened when people say that Waterford isn't a city? Do you feel hurt?

Perhaps they feel like you think that you are above the laws of Ireland and your ego needs to be brought back in check. Waterford City is a city.


Why does it matter? It is simply pride of the worst sort, utterly foolish and unproductive.

Look in the mirror. If it does not matter why are you making a deal out of it. Why can you not accept the proper title?

Making the Irish statute book your floating piece of wood in the sea and desperately clinging to it is Waterford's own variant of the Creationist's "it's in the Bible, so it's true!" delusion.

You are right, no place for law in a civilised country.


The most that Waterford is is an honourary city, a titular city, a medieval city. And that's cool. It's a grand old town in my book. You don't need to be connected to Limerick by a motorway, however.

Waterford is a city. When are people like you going to accept that city status is not dependent on population? You can take your book and chuck out the window because, despite what you think, your opinion does not have legal status in this country. Buy a statute book, much more useful.

Here is a city that would really irritate people like you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Davids

invincibleirish

Steviemak wrote: »

Thanks

I agree a Motorway is probably too much to connect Limerick and Waterford 2+2 would more than suffice. Maybe even wide S2 with bypasses.

However, maybe I haven't been putting my point across clearly -

If we are building a brand new Motorway from Limerick to Cork (and it is deemed necessary by planners etc) then why not instead build a different Motorway that uses the current network more efficiently. The new M24's purpose will not be just to connect Limerick to Waterford but will also become the new Limerick to Cork Rd and Cork to Waterford rd. Therefore traffic levels on this new road will be higher than the M20 that would purely serve Limerick to Cork.

All three places (dare i use cities;) ) connected by one piece of instructure instead of unnecessarily building 3 ie a new 2+2 N24, an M20 and 2+2 N25 or M25 (not sure of latest plans for N25). Each place isn't big enough to justify individual connections in my opinion.

The purpose of the M20 isn't just to build a Motorway between Cork & Limerick, thats a tangible bonus, If you build an M24 you will still need to upgrade the N20 between Mallow & Blarney to DC, still need to build a Cork NRR & still need to upgrade the N20 between Mallow & Croom to an acceptable level.

The N24 is a road connecting 2 small urban areas and has a handful of towns on its route, a Motorway is complete overkill unless these areas mushroom in size in the near future. You're idea is to build a national network to connect the cities but ignores practical realities, namely the road will have very low levels of traffic as it will run through and serve lightly populated areas, namely rural Limerick, Tipp & Waterford. Its a variation on the old irish theme, build it and they will come, in the case of the N24, no they won't, certainly not enough to justify building a 100km Motorway through the Munster countryside.

fricatus

Furet wrote: »

You seem to want parity of esteem for all the cities (such as when you place Waterford on a par with Limerick and Galway

Furet wrote: »

While Limerick and Galway are also very small in an EU context (as is Cork), they are considerably larger than Waterford. So they are not equal in size, they are not equal economically, they are not equal in importance, and they cannot be equal in terms of infrastructure. You are drawing false parallels, and you refuse to see that. And, with respect, it is childish foot stomping to wail about the unfairness of it all.

Furet wrote: »

That is the issue that you seem to struggle with Bards: Nomenclature Does Not Matter. Demographics do. You need to acknowledge that.

Furet, the issue that I have with all this is that there are practically no proper spatial population data readily available in this country. We have data on county and city populations, which are skewed by boundaries (the most extreme example being Limerick), but apart from that we only have the DEDs to go on.

I had long thought that Waterford was bigger than Galway for example, but current census data disproved that. I wondered where I had got this impression, and it turns out that until the '70s, it was, until the western city put on a growth spurt and Waterford went into relative decline.

Still though, there was too much of a disparity between the two cities' population when they, to me "felt" the same size, so I decided a couple of months ago to have an objective look at the available data. I drew a circle, of 25 km radius I believe, around the two cities, using a map of the DEDs, and aggregated the population figures from the DED populations in Census 2006.

It was painstaking work, but the results showed that the Galway area has a population of 139,000 and the Waterford area has a population of 128,000. I still haven't had time to do the same analysis on the Limerick area or the Cork area, but this will stand up to inspection and I'm happy to share the Excel files with you.

I'm sure you would agree that a 25 km radius is a fairer way of measuring the population of a small city and its immediate rural hinterland, than using boundaries based on rivers or outdated urban boundaries, subject as these are to local political wrangling (viz. Kilkenny/Waterford or Clare/Limerick).

On the basis that the populations of the Waterford and Galway areas differ by only around 8%, your assertions that Galway is "considerably larger than Waterford" and that the two "cannot be equal in terms of infrastructure" do not make sense when judged against the available data.

This is the sort of analysis we need to be doing when discussing the M24 or any other piece of national infrastructure.

Steviemak

invincibleirish wrote: »

The purpose of the M20 isn't just to build a Motorway between Cork & Limerick, thats a tangible bonus, If you build an M24 you will still need to upgrade the N20 between Mallow & Blarney to DC, still need to build a Cork NRR & still need to upgrade the N20 between Mallow & Croom to an acceptable level.

The N24 is a road connecting 2 small urban areas and has a handful of towns on its route, a Motorway is complete overkill unless these areas mushroom in size in the near future. You're idea is to build a national network to connect the cities but ignores practical realities, namely the road will have very low levels of traffic as it will run through and serve lightly populated areas, namely rural Limerick, Tipp & Waterford. Its a variation on the old irish theme, build it and they will come, in the case of the N24, no they won't, certainly not enough to justify building a 100km Motorway through the Munster countryside.

Thanks for the input as I said the M24 will not happen but I think this debate has served to highlight the lack of need for an M20. As you say a motorway between Cork and Limerick is complete over kill. It will have very low levels of traffic and run through low populated area of north cork and south Limerick. Therefore, an upgrade of the S2 is sufficient for the N20. You cannot justify building a 100km Motorway through the Munster countryside to link just Cork and Limerick.

The Cork NRR upgrade should go ahead regardless of the what road the Limerick traffic comes in on be it M8 or M20.

Don't forget my proposal of an M24 is aimed solely at reducing the amount of motorways and new roads built through Munster. The M24 would not serve South Tipp etc but join the 3 biggest populations in Munster. It would contain, Cork-Limerick, Cork-Waterford and Waterford-Limerick traffic. I believe making these places more attractive to Industry would help the country move any from the Dublin centric affects we are currently experiencing.

invincibleirish

Steviemak wrote: »

Thanks for the input as I said the M24 will not happen but I think this debate has served to highlight the lack of need for an M20. As you say a motorway between Cork and Limerick is complete over kill. It will have very low levels of traffic and run through low populated area of north cork and south Limerick. Therefore, an upgrade of the S2 is sufficient for the N20. You cannot justify building a 100km Motorway through the Munster countryside to link just Cork and Limerick.

Well i don't know if i can say the 2 M20 projects as planned are overkill certainly when compared to the entirety of the N24, the areas i highlighted - Mallow-Blarney & Mallow - Croom with bypasses of several towns on route do need to happen whether S2 or otherwise, as does the Cork NRR, packaging it all into 2 projects makes sense if you ask me, especially with the addition of the Adare BP. Otherwise If you are realiging the N20, bypassing Mallow, Charleville, Adare & Buttevant and realigning the N20 as an S2 i would guess the projected costs would be far more if built in a piecemeal manner?. Perhaps there is merit is keeping the N20 past Mallow as an S2 or a 2+2, plenty of time to still discuss it unless miracles happen with the countrys economy in the next few years.

Amtmann

Gruffalo wrote: »

Waterford is a city. When are people like you going to accept that city status is not dependent on population? You can take your book and chuck out the window because, despite what you think, your opinion does not have legal status in this country. Buy a statute book, much more useful.

Here is a city that would really irritate people like you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Davids

You are completely and totally missing the point. But as it doesn't seem kosher at present to pursue this (very relevant) aspect of the discussion, I'll not bother responding point by point to what is nothing but a weak strawman argument.

mysterious

invincibleirish wrote: »

The purpose of the M20 isn't just to build a Motorway between Cork & Limerick, thats a tangible bonus, If you build an M24 you will still need to upgrade the N20 between Mallow & Blarney to DC, still need to build a Cork NRR & still need to upgrade the N20 between Mallow & Croom to an acceptable level.
.

I would of opt for an M24 and join at Mitchellstown and then multplex of Cahir for Waterford. It would be far cheaper and more economical.

But as you said other schemes have been lumped into the M20 scheme. You forgot to mention the Adare bypass also. So I can say lets just proceed with the N20. The route plans are drawn up already.

I would of prefered a Cork - Limerick - Waterford motorway too. But this is not the case as it stands now.

mysterious

fricatus wrote: »

I had long thought that Waterford was bigger than Galway for example, but current census data disproved that.

We all knew that.:D

I drew a circle, of 25 km radius I believe, around the two cities, using a map of the DEDs, and aggregated the population figures from the DED populations in Census 2006.

Lets swallow up the entire SE, to make the city loooooook MAZZZIVE.:rolleyes:

It was painstaking work, but the results showed that the Galway area has a population of 139,000 and the Waterford area has a population of 128,000. I still haven't had time to do the same analysis on the Limerick area or the Cork area, but this will stand up to inspection and I'm happy to share the Excel files with you.

This I would be interested to see.

I'm sure you would agree that a 25 km radius is a fairer way of measuring the population of a small city and its immediate rural hinterland, than using boundaries based on rivers or outdated urban boundaries, subject as these are to local political wrangling (viz. Kilkenny/Waterford or Clare/Limerick).

No a city is defined where the urban area STOPS.

On the basis that the populations of the Waterford and Galway areas differ by only around 8%, your assertions that Galway is "considerably larger than Waterford" and that the two "cannot be equal in terms of infrastructure" do not make sense when judged against the available data.

Your point is? Since its off topic anyhow.

This is the sort of analysis we need to be doing when discussing the M24 or any other piece of national infrastructure.

Do the analysis then. But give facts.

Hogzy

Have to agree that the Cork City 'boundary' is a little out dated, im only familiar with the south side and as far as im aware it doesnt go passed the balinlough area. IMO Douglas, Rochestown, Bishopstown and all these suburbs should be within the city boundary and part of the City council and not the county council

fricatus

mysterious wrote: »

Lets swallow up the entire SE, to make the city loooooook MAZZZIVE.:rolleyes:

Roll your eyes all you want, mysterious. I've presented a factual argument and gone to some trouble to do so. If cheap digs and smilies are the best you can do, maybe you can take your arguments to the school playground where they belong.

mysterious wrote: »

This I would be interested to see.

No problem. I'll pm you the files when I have it done. Feel free to remind me.

mysterious wrote: »

Do the analysis then. But give facts.

You're right to call for facts of course, but when they don't suit your arguments, are you just going to dismiss them with sarcasm?

As things stand, I haven't completed the analysis I was working on (too busy), so I don't have the facts to hand. I promise you I'll post them here when I have them.

D.L.R.

Anyone got some AADT figures for the N20/N24? That might help inject some logic and reason into this...

spacetweek

D.L.R. wrote: »

Anyone got some AADT figures for the N20/N24? That might help inject some logic and reason into this...

Although this would normally be the case, in this case the existing roads are so poor that there is probably a lot of latent demand - people who would like to make the trip but who don't bother due to long journey times. These aren't reflected in N20/24 AADTs.

Just for the sake of it though.
N20: Levels are low, below 20,000 for the whole central section. There is currently slow traffic growth. For Croom, the AADT is 14221, and growth is 1-7% annually for 2007 & 2008, and 3-5% for 2001-2006.
At Rathduff, 2006-2009 figures also show <20k and growth at 5% long term average (based on earlier this decade).

Even assuming an average 5% growth per year, Croom won't even hit 20,000 (DC level) until 2015. Though like I said, the extent of latent demand is hard to figure.

I'm still in favour of the M20 though, due to the extremely poor condition of the existing road, and the strategic importance of the route.

For the N24, levels at Woodruff (incorrectly spelled here) are barely scraping the 10k mark with 4% long term average growth. That would reach 20k in 2027, which is probably when we'll see 2+2 along there anyway.

Amtmann

I think this should be locked for now. If people wish to have it re-opened then PM me and I'll think about it. But it just looks like an attempt at baiting tbh.

BluntGuy

You'd be far better off making a new thread, this one has become a disaster.