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Irish Mercenary Killed in Bolivia

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    #32
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    This young man apparantly sported an SS tattoo.

    Please stop reguritating the dross that passes for arguement and discussion on other sites. I have seen the picture of his tattoo. I know quite a few lads who have similar ones. Saying it is Neo-Nazi is pathetic and mis-information of the higest order.

    The questions that need to be answered are from Mr Dwyers side of things.

    What exactly was he doing in Bolivia, holiday, work, revolution?

    Was he employed as a bodyguard or did he have any active role in this perceived plot (if indeed there was a plot)?

    From his previous employers side.

    What kind of training requires that one of their employees needs to be sent to Bolivia?

    Were they involved in getting Mr Dwyer his latest job, if so what was their relationship with his new employer?

    From the Bolivian Authorities side.

    Why were CCTV cameras off for the duration of the assault on the hotel, surely it would have been more use to the authorities to have this footage if the operation was legitimate?

    Why did they kill these men when it appears they were unarmed and taken by surprise?

    Were the mens fate decided before the operation begun?

    Was the operation legal, reports coming from Bolivia are saying the forces involved did not have the correct warrants?

    Was the operation designed to make Morales look strong at the Summit of the Americas?


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    #33
    Gone West
    Registered Users Posts: 6,374 ✭✭✭Gone West


    I'm living in this part of the world at the moment, and can give a little insight to this story.
    gandalf wrote: »

    From the Bolivian Authorities side.

    Why were CCTV cameras off for the duration of the assault on the hotel, surely it would have been more use to the authorities to have this footage if the operation was legitimate?
    Standard protocol for any army op down here, CCTV is always shut off first. The army is out to protect itself, not to have public domain accountability. Yes its wrong, but thats the way it is.
    gandalf wrote: »
    Why did they kill these men when it appears they were unarmed and taken by surprise?
    Any number of reasons. PR, bad intel, poorly trained army, etc.
    Looks like they were just shot in the head while in bed, and a little story was invented about a 30 min shootout to cover up their mistake.
    gandalf wrote: »
    Were the mens fate decided before the operation begun?
    Absolutely. Armys here are mostly 19 year olds, and they get instructions which they just carry out.
    gandalf wrote: »
    Was the operation legal, reports coming from Bolivia are saying the forces involved did not have the correct warrants?
    Most army killings in South America do not have official warrants. Its par for the course unfortunately.
    gandalf wrote: »
    Was the operation designed to make Morales look strong at the Summit of the Americas?
    Thats a decent theory. Morales is a little Chavez fanboy, and this is exactly the sort of thing that the whole left wing Bolivarian revolution boyos are at. I would reckon that that is partly it, but that they had some poor intel to begin with, as well as probably some other factors which may or may not come out in the wash.

    This is all IMO, but I reckon that the Irish lad was a patsy and took a fall.
    It looks like he was one of those Airsoft Walter Mittys who met up with a dangerous Eastern European in Ireland.
    The story about him being sent to Bolivia for training is total bullshoot. Anybody who has ever been to Bolivia will confirm that nobody goes there to train for anything. Its one of the most backward countries in SA, and for an imperfect Spanish speaker, its very unlikely.
    Most Irish travellers do not just go to Bolivia, they will travel there by bus from Peru, on their way to Chile/Argentina, or vice versa. Its not the sort of place you travel all the way from Ireland to. Its the sort of place you stop off for 2 weeks on a backpacking journey.
    I would say that he met this guy in Ireland, and was offered a job of coming to help him, or to be his bodyguard. And he gave his family the story of going to Bolivia to train as an excuse, because he didn't want to tell them the truth. It looks like the "training" story came from the family, not the company.

    Tool, tbh.


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    #34
    Uniden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Uniden


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Consular staff sent to La Paz as soon as the story broke; body released and arrangements in train to have it returned home; interview with local law enforcement agencies lined up for tomorrow. I think our civil servants from the Dept of Foreign Affairs are doing their job.


    We will see from past experience and talking to other families unless your a well to do person from a affluent family it wont be as simple as that..


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    #35
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Uniden wrote: »
    We will see from past experience and talking to other families unless your a well to do person from a affluent family it wont be as simple as that..

    I have no idea what the family circumstances of this young man were, but it looks to me that your attack on the staff of Department of Foreign Affairs was unwarranted: everything you claimed about them seems to be wrong.


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    #36
    ilkhanid
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭ilkhanid


    If (and I emphasize 'if as so much about this affair is still unclear and subject to rumour) one of the bodies had its hands tied, as was reported to have seen in one photograph,then it went beyond a mistake or the standard trigger-happy soldiery. It looks like summary execution.


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    #37
    Frankie Lee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭Frankie Lee


    Lemming wrote: »
    And apparently, he wasn't sporting a tattoo with any sort of nazi association. So the moral of this contradiction would be to quit with the random gossip speculation and see what comes of it instead of regurgitating something you heard from someone who heard from someone who heard it from their dog's flea's great great grandfather twenty seven times removed on the side of their left testicle because we just. don't. know.

    I'm not defending the lad, but I will keep an open mind and instinct is telling me that he may be a rather unfortunate victim in all of this given how absolutely dirty South/Latin American politics is, and the fact that a left-wing government is in power. I would hasten to point out that left and right wing bodies are so far apart that they sit beside each other ...



    You forgot the bit about the story reeking to high heaven of absolute sh*t.

    940012793a10121894945l.jpg

    To me it looks like an SS at the bottom, add that to the company he was keeping it would suggest a nazi tattoo.


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    #38
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    Frankie Lee wrote: »
    940012793a10121894945l.jpg

    To me it looks like an SS at the bottom, add that to the company he was keeping it would suggest a nazi tattoo.

    That does not look nazi to me. Looks far more quasi-tribal to me, as the rest of the curvature suggested by the vanes on either of the "SS" suggest. How about you look at the rest of the tattoo eh?

    Your analysis reminds me of those psychology pictures where there are about twenty different things in them ...


    But as I write this, I realise that you're just not going to get it. Nor the fact that this is two people arguing semantics that only one person can answer. And that person is dead. Under very, very suspect circumstances at that.


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    #39
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    That's not a Nazi tattoo at all, a pile of sh*te and shoddy workmanship, yes, but not a Nazi tattoo.


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    #40
    dsmythy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,508 ✭✭✭✭dsmythy


    Frankie Lee wrote: »
    940012793a10121894945l.jpg

    To me it looks like an SS at the bottom, add that to the company he was keeping it would suggest a nazi tattoo.

    I can't believe the stretch that it takes to call that some sort of Nazi tattoo. It's looks like a standard tribal design. Only if you're looking for such things would you find the patterns that stretch out towards the bottom as actually meaning something rather than just being part of the whole tattoo.


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    #41
    murfie
    Registered Users Posts: 768 ✭✭✭murfie


    The more i read about this story the more its clear that is was a plot by the Bolivian government, this guy was just out of college! He wasnt a mercenary! He was a civil/construction graduate just last year, 2008. He was killed it looks like in cold blood as a patsy, asleep in his bed. I feel sorry for his family as they will never know exactly what happened i fear.


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    #42
    Ronan|Raven
    Registered Users Posts: 8,141 ✭✭✭Ronan|Raven


    If you look closely enough at his tattoo you can almost make out the quake four logo...

    The whole thing stink indeed.


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    #43
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    "Me thinks it is like a weasel" ...


    The whole thing stinks to high heaven. I'd like to see what the Dept of FA comes back with but I think it may very well be "FA".

    DeV.


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    #44
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    murfie wrote: »
    The more i read about this story the more its clear that is was a plot by the Bolivian government, this guy was just out of college! He wasnt a mercenary! He was a civil/construction graduate just last year, 2008. He was killed it looks like in cold blood as a patsy, asleep in his bed. I feel sorry for his family as they will never know exactly what happened i fear.

    He had graduated from college and was working as a security contractor for this Hungarian chap.

    Whats not in dispute is that he worked for a mercenary.

    Whats not in dispute is that the group he workerd for were armed to the teeth and planning an operation.

    What is unclear is the role of Mr Dwyer in the mercanary group. Whether he was an extreme right winger who was there to kill a leftist leader, a bodyguard or a youngfella who got out of his depth with some Eastern European hard men is the question.

    As for the killings, its a straight down the line shoot first operation. If you think the ERU or ARW would act any differently faced with a group of well armed foreign mercenaries who were planning on killing Cowen, well good for you.


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    #45
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    He had graduated from college and was working as a security contractor for this Hungarian chap.

    Whats not in dispute is that he worked for a mercenary.

    Ummm, a "mercenary" who has spent at least the last decade working as a journalist, writing books, making TV documentaries, film, etc. I mean, if i were to go ovrethrow a government, I'd be making films and writing books and not practicin my insurgency skills somewh ... oh wait ... *cough*

    Consider the apparent motive for being in Bolivia as a film crew. Then consider the make up of the group and its age demographic:

    A 50-something year old (the hungarian in question) ex war vet. A 60 year old ex war vet. A musician, an IT guy who worked in banks, and a college graduate. Clearly the background & skillset for a merc. group of men in their prime to take on state security forces ... if you insist that is ... excuse me whilst I swallow a load of "if that isn't smelling of sh*t I don't know what is".
    Whats not in dispute is that the group he workerd for were armed to the teeth and planning an operation.

    "Armed to the teeth" with incredibly obsolete firearms that I'd dare say are also of questionable reliability. They're antiques for christ sake!


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    #46
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Whats not in dispute is that the group he workerd for were armed to the teeth and planning an operation.
    What's not in dispute is this is what the Bolivian police said, and also that there was a big shoot out, and they killed him.

    It's a pity he was shot in the back of the head, as that discredits their entire fairytale...


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    #47
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Lemming wrote: »
    Ummm, a "mercenary" who has spent at least the last decade working as a journalist, writing books, making TV documentaries, film, etc. I mean, if i were to go ovrethrow a government, I'd be making films and writing books and not practicin my insurgency skills somewh ... oh wait ... *cough*

    Consider the apparent motive for being in Bolivia as a film crew. Then consider the make up of the group and its age demographic:

    A 50-something year old (the hungarian in question) ex war vet. A 60 year old ex war vet. A musician, an IT guy who worked in banks, and a college graduate. Clearly the background & skillset for a merc. group of men in their prime to take on state security forces ... if you insist that is ... excuse me whilst I swallow a load of "if that isn't smelling of sh*t I don't know what is".

    "Armed to the teeth" with incredibly obsolete firearms that I'd dare say are also of questionable reliability. They're antiques for christ sake!

    He described HIMSELF as a "brigade commander".

    Whether they were any actual threat remains to be seen, but the reality is this guy was purporting to be in Bolivia to militarily support a seperatist movement. Mr Dwyer was working for him as a security contractor.

    What do you think these non-nationals, more than one of which has previous figthing as a right wing mercenary, were doing, armed, in a Bolivian Hotel?


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    #48
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    the_syco wrote: »
    What's not in dispute is this is what the Bolivian police said, and also that there was a big shoot out, and they killed him.

    It's a pity he was shot in the back of the head, as that discredits their entire fairytale...

    Please read my post. I am not disputing that they were taken out by the authorities.

    But I'm wondering what do people expect? Even if they weren't what they claimed, they must have expected a reaction. And in South America, the reaction to threats on a Presidents life tends to be brutal.


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    #49
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    He described HIMSELF as a "brigade commander".

    He described himself as a brigade commander in what context exactly? Past tense in reference to his time fighting decades ago?
    Whether they were any actual threat remains to be seen, but the reality is this guy was purporting to be in Bolivia to militarily support a seperatist movement. Mr Dwyer was working for him as a security contractor.

    All according to the Bolivian government. You'll excuse me if I really don't trust a word that comes out of their mouths. I would also hasten to point out that the reality (such an unfortunate choice of word that you used) is the following; we haven't a f*cking clue what the reality is, other than the entire debacle reeks of political bullsh*t of the highest, and most contemptably absurd level.

    I wouldn't be using the word "reality" next to any statement by te Bolivian government at this time if I were you.

    What do you think these non-nationals, more than one of which has previous figthing as a right wing mercenary, were doing, armed, in a Bolivian Hotel?

    More than one. Funny thing word play. I could turn your statement around and ask you what a bunch of non-nationals, less than half of which had any previous military experience were doing in a Bolivian Hotel? further the point that of the two (i.e. more than one) that did have such experience, the youngest was in his fifties.


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    #50
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Lemming wrote: »
    He described himself as a brigade commander in what context exactly? Past tense in reference to his time fighting decades ago?

    All according to the Bolivian government. You'll excuse me if I really don't trust a word that comes out of their mouths. I would also hasten to point out that the reality (such an unfortunate choice of word that you used) is the following; we haven't a f*cking clue what the reality is, other than the entire debacle reeks of political bullsh*t of the highest, and most contemptably absurd level.

    I wouldn't be using the word "reality" next to any statement by te Bolivian government at this time if I were you.

    More than one. Funny thing word play. I could turn your statement around and ask you what a bunch of non-nationals, less than half of which had any previous military experience were doing in a Bolivian Hotel? further the point that of the two (i.e. more than one) that did have such experience, the youngest was in his fifties.

    I'm a bit confused. You acknowledge that the group was armed and contained mercenaries but also claim that the Bolivians trumped up charges and these guys are innocent victims of a plot to frame them. Can you make up your mind?

    What I am saying is that whatever the actual capabilites of this gang, they were clearly up to something. Having said that, I don't condone shooting them in their beds.

    I'm a bit confused as to your angle here? Why are you so vociferous in defending this group and its motives?


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    #51
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    What I am saying is that whatever the actual capabilites of this gang, they were clearly up to something.
    According to the uncorroborated evidence of a senior police officer, perhaps?


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    #52
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    What do you think these non-nationals, more than one of which has previous figthing as a right wing mercenary, were doing, armed, in a Bolivian Hotel?

    Again according to reports no arms were found in the Hotel they were apparently found in a cache "nearby".


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    #53
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Whats not in dispute is that the group he workerd for were armed to the teeth and planning an operation.
    .

    They had nothing there that struck me as that out of the ordinary. Shotguns and older semi-automatic weaponry. If you have a list and pictures, please provide it. Secondly, proof of them planning anything seems scant.

    .
    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    What is unclear is the role of Mr Dwyer in the mercanary group. .

    The international security industry is full of ex-military people, from all over. All of them can therefore be described as 'mercenary'.
    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    But I'm wondering what do people expect? Even if they weren't what they claimed, they must have expected a reaction..

    Reaction to what?

    At the moment, information is quite scant. I'd suggest shelving speculation till something comes up.


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    #54
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    According to the uncorroborated evidence of a senior police officer, perhaps?

    Exactly. While I would listen to him, I wouldn't convict just yet....


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    #55
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Exactly. While I would listen to him, I wouldn't convict just yet....
    Seems to me you already have.


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    #56
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    Fair play to Bolivia.
    That guy Flores was obviously up to trouble.
    Why the weapons in a hotel room?


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    #57
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    gandalf wrote: »
    Again according to reports no arms were found in the Hotel they were apparently found in a cache "nearby".

    Fair enough.

    But I still hold my opinion that this chap got out of his depth with a bunch of Eastern European guns for hire who were in turn out of their depth.

    The impression you would get from some people is that he was simply a backpacker is plain wrong.


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    #58
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    I'm a bit confused. You acknowledge that the group was armed and contained mercenaries but also claim that the Bolivians trumped up charges and these guys are innocent victims of a plot to frame them. Can you make up your mind?

    What I am saying is that whatever the actual capabilites of this gang, they were clearly up to something. Having said that, I don't condone shooting them in their beds.

    I'm a bit confused as to your angle here? Why are you so vociferous in defending this group and its motives?

    I acknowledged nothing of the sort. I said that the arms (in reference to a picture published by the Bolivian Authorities of a neatly assembled photo op. at a crime scene) were vintage. Not that the group was armed.

    The group of five, contained two former military (I will not speculate on whether they ever engaged in mercenary activity or not in the past) types both of whom were over 50 years of age (indeed one was in his sixties) and one of whom was at least a decade outside of his alleged "profession". I have not defended this group or any alleged activities in any way shape or form other than to pour absolute scorn on the "account" as provided by the Bolivian authorities. It's so full of holes, tetleys could use it to strain tea with.


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    #59
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Seems to me you already have.

    So when an Irishman is suspected of no good in Ireland, its ok to assume the worst and a Garda Insepector's evidence to have him jailed for 6 years for membership.

    But when an Irishman is suspected of no good in Bolivia, the rules are different and the cops must be lying.

    Thanks for clearing that up


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    #60
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Lemming wrote: »
    I acknowledged nothing of the sort. I said that the arms (in reference to a picture published by the Bolivian Authorities of a neatly assembled photo op. at a crime scene) were vintage. Not that the group was armed.

    The group of five, contained two former military (I will not speculate on whether they ever engaged in mercenary activity or not in the past) types both of whom were over 50 years of age (indeed one was in his sixties) and one of whom was at least a decade outside of his alleged "profession". I have not defended this group or any alleged activities in any way shape or form other than to pour absolute scorn on the "account" as provided by the Bolivian authorities. It's so full of holes, tetleys could use it to strain tea with.


    So what were these people doing in a remote region of Bolivia that is in a state of inssurection?

    Birdwatching?


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    #61
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    Fair play to Bolivia.
    That guy Flores was obviously up to trouble.
    Why the weapons in a hotel room?

    Security in South America requires something a bit stiffer than security in Dublin 4. Secondly, the guns were apparently found elsewhere. Thirdly, they appear to be shot guns and older semi-automatics, from the one picture I could see. Its nothing that would be untoward for a few security guards who liked a bit of hunting now and again.

    Saying that he was "obviously" up to anything at this stage is pushing it, to put it mildly.


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