Irish Mercenary Killed in Bolivia

Sponge Bob

A Very odd tale

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8005592.stm

Revealing details of the alleged mercenary gang, police chief Victor Hugo Escobar said prosecutors were now seeking "clear and concrete information".

The group, suspected by authorities of being behind a dynamite attack on the home of a Catholic cardinal earlier in the week, was tracked down on Thursday to a hotel in Santa Cruz, some 900km (620 miles) east of the capital, La Paz.

The resulting shootout killed Magyarosi Arpak, a Romanian, and Irishman Michael Martin Dwyer, officials say.

The police chief named Eduardo Rosa Flores, 49, a Bolivian-Hungarian man also killed in the gunbattle, as the ringleader of the group.
He fought in the war for Croatian independence in the 1990s where he commanded a paramilitary organisation, reports said.

The two men arrested were named as Mario Francisco Tasik Astorga, 58, another veteran of the Croatian war, and Elot Toazo, a Hungarian computer expert.

Mr Morales revealed the existence of the alleged plot as he travelled to Venezuela and Trinidad for regional summits.

He said intelligence reports had warned of an assassination plot by a group comprising foreign attackers intending to "riddle us with bullets".

Early reports from Bolivia's leftist government suggested the plotters were linked in some way to opposition movements in the country's lowlands

bobbbb

He was from Tipp.

Mad, i tell ya.

live2thewire

what were a romanian, irish and a hungarian doing in bolivia?

dresden8

live2thewire wrote: »

what were a romanian, irish and a hungarian doing in bolivia?

Is that how a Bolivian joke starts?

brianthebard

live2thewire wrote: »

what were a romanian, irish and a hungarian doing in bolivia?

Attempting to assassinate the president, didn't you read the article??

lostexpectation

its like trying to kill cowen becuase you want dun laoghaire to secede cos you don't want your taxes spent on services in finglas

Uniden

Sponge Bob wrote: »

A Very odd tale

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8005592.stm

Revealing details of the alleged mercenary gang, police chief Victor Hugo Escobar said prosecutors were now seeking "clear and concrete information".

The group, suspected by authorities of being behind a dynamite attack on the home of a Catholic cardinal earlier in the week, was tracked down on Thursday to a hotel in Santa Cruz, some 900km (620 miles) east of the capital, La Paz.

The resulting shootout killed Magyarosi Arpak, a Romanian, and Irishman Michael Martin Dwyer, officials say.

The police chief named Eduardo Rosa Flores, 49, a Bolivian-Hungarian man also killed in the gunbattle, as the ringleader of the group.
He fought in the war for Croatian independence in the 1990s where he commanded a paramilitary organisation, reports said.

The two men arrested were named as Mario Francisco Tasik Astorga, 58, another veteran of the Croatian war, and Elot Toazo, a Hungarian computer expert.

Mr Morales revealed the existence of the alleged plot as he travelled to Venezuela and Trinidad for regional summits.

He said intelligence reports had warned of an assassination plot by a group comprising foreign attackers intending to "riddle us with bullets".

Early reports from Bolivia's leftist government suggested the plotters were linked in some way to opposition movements in the country's lowlands

Do you know for certain if he was a mercenary because the likely hood he was not and was a young immature gob****e looking for adventure.

My brother was the same aged 22 and was murdered in Brazil for being in the wrong place at the wrong time...

So before making headings as Irish Merc killed in Bolivia have a think because the likely hood is that he was murdered and used as a scape goat for South American Police incompentence and corruptness !

deadhead13

He doesn't appear to have a military background - very strange.

Red Hand

When I heard this story, my first thought was that the Irish guy was brianthebard doing a Che Guevera impression.

Carlow52

old boy wrote: »

saw his pic on rte jees he is over weight, if he was is a commando or whatever he needed to join weight watchers or what ever. if i was hiring ?????????????

This no way to speak of the dead: post reported

nesf

old boy wrote: »

saw his pic on rte jees he is over weight, if he was is a commando or whatever he needed to join weight watchers or what ever. if i was hiring ?????????????

Please show some respect for the dead. There's no need to be mocking the guy.

Carlow52 wrote: »

This no way to speak of the dead: post reported

In future please just report the post and don't announce that you've done so in the thread. Thanks.

Turner

Uniden wrote: »

Do you know for certain if he was a mercenary because the likely hood he was not and was a young immature gob****e looking for adventure.

Well he was a foreigner, he was in a foreign land, and he was trying to kill the president.

So yes he was a mercenary.

If he was motivated by money? none of us know yet.

Only the local police would no that.

Sheridan

The wall of denial ("no criminal record", "nothing to suggest he was a mercenary etc") thrown up by the government today is really setting alarm bells ringing. What possessed this unfortunate fellow to get mixed up in this business is a secondary issue. There is no shortage of right-wing ideologues with links to the military-industrial complex in this country who might happily have funded an assassination attempt on a socialist president. If it does emerge that the group embarked on their murderous adventure from Ireland, I hope public opinion will prevent the state from sweeping this under the carpet as they've attempted to do so far.

Uniden

Chief--- wrote: »

Well he was a foreigner, he was in a foreign land, and he was trying to kill the president.

So yes he was a mercenary.

If he was motivated by money? none of us know yet.

Only the local police would no that.

Question is can you prove that..No you can't and if I was a betting man I would say he was murdered as it seems all to convienent..

I have experience in this region and the police and armies in south american countries are basically terrorists...

I lost a brother in Brazil, because he was western, had cash and was travelling around...

Uniden

Also if there was a plot to kill a president,there would be no short supply of credible ex-special forces from the entire continent,europe and russia..

This is total and utter bull**** but again our lovely government will do nothing, they will make the familes life hell (Department of Foriegn affairs) as they are indifferent ignorant civil servants... It will take weeks if not months for the family to get the body home and again the Irish government will do nothing to help..

Even the phone calls the family recieve from DFA will be charged back to them....

If I could I would help them..

Sheridan

The Bay of Pigs invasion was a fiasco involving poorly-trained fanatics. This incident was cut from the same cloth.

P. Breathnach

Uniden wrote: »

... This is total and utter bull**** but again our lovely government will do nothing, they will make the familes life hell (Department of Foriegn affairs) as they are indifferent ignorant civil servants... It will take weeks if not months for the family to get the body home and again the Irish government will do nothing to help...

Consular staff sent to La Paz as soon as the story broke; body released and arrangements in train to have it returned home; interview with local law enforcement agencies lined up for tomorrow. I think our civil servants from the Dept of Foreign Affairs are doing their job.

dresden8

The whole thing stinks. Not sure in which way exactly it stinks, but it does.

Good to see posters who already have everything sorted out in their heads, in this time of uncertainty, we need real leaders.

gandalf

It stinks to high heaven especially now that the Irish Times are reporting that the two survivors were seen by a judge in the early hours of the morning with no media present at all.

Irish Times Article wrote:

Bolivian newspaper Nuevo Día reported that the media did not have access to the court hearing at which the two men were remanded.

It said the court instructed that they be detained in San Pedro prison in downtown La Paz, but that they had asked to be taken to Chonchocoro, a maximum security prison outside the city, because they were "scared to death".

The judge did not change his ruling and the men were taken to San Pedro with their heads covered, the paper said.

The newspaper said the file on the case was being handled like a "state secret" and that the court hearing had taken place in the early hours of the morning.

Source

hawthorn

I was in a pub just 4 miles from his house Friday night and quite a few reporters were knocking around. Everyone is shocked and no one can believe it. He had gone travelling, as young people do. Rumour that he got work with a security firm and was to come home in Feb, but stayed on in the job.

I believ he had just graduated in construction from a college in Castlebar or somewhere in that area.

There was a suggestion in one of the papers that this was all a plot to make the president look good, and a set up. I dont know.

Lets shope the truth surfaces, even if it is the case that he was involved. He may have been a pawn, who knows. But for the familys sake lets hope its cleared up.

h

weiss

As Uniden said, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Partizan

weiss wrote: »

As Uniden said, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I dont think he was so innocent as the media is making him out to be.

Good discussion here on politics.ie about it.

http://www.politics.ie/foreign-affairs/

BostonB

Whole thing stinks. I don't believe any of the stories about this.

lostexpectation

pics of him associating with this national mercenary from some time back, this guy didn't just happen by.

last seen in ireland working for shell IRMS security in mayo!

and all his friends and family can come up wtih is that he was nice

now i don't see anyone subject of summary justice but suspicious is warrented

tallus

Looks like they were shot dead in their beds.
http://www.budapesttimes.hu/content/view/11706/219/

Warning, Graphic images in the video near the end of the page.

Something definetly stinks.

Alcatel

It's South America, a place with a long history of odd situations that involve people turning up dead.

On the one hand, I'd say that this guy looks to be a bit of the Walter Mitty type, and he could have been there for purposes beyond a simple holiday - though whether or not he actually got so far as to do anything, or would have, is another question.

On the other hand, it could have been the regime down there getting all frisky and doing away with someone they think to be a threat. I doubt the police walked into a random hotel room and shot some random guys who happen to be Bebo-apparent gun enthusiasts.

I would say there's a reason they killed these guys. Whether or not it's justified is up in the air. If they were part of a coup attempt, and were in a firefight, they're dead and rightly so. If they were part of a coup attempt and died in their beds, that's not cricket. If they were completely innocent, that's very unfortunate.

Whichever of the three, I feel for the families involved.

the_syco

The dude played airsoft/paintball, thus the fatigues photos. The guy he was with was his employer. Seems his employer in Bolivia was ex-miltia, which means f-all, from that part of the world. Also, it seems he was sent to Bolivia by his Irish employer for training.

=-=

Shot at the back of the head = scrapegoat.
Shot in the front of the boody multiple times = shootout.

This smells of sh|t.

donaghs

brianthebard wrote: »

Attempting to assassinate the president, didn't you read the article??

The Bolivian media also said he fought in the Balkans wars. So don't believe everything you read. He was 23, recently left GMIT. The photo of him in fatigues was taken doing paint-ball. We may never know the truth of what happened there or why he was with more dangerous individuals, but at the moment it looks like he was shot in his bed. The official story has more holes in it than the hotel room.

gandalf

donaghs wrote: »

The official story has more holes in it than the hotel room.

Actually according to reports the hotel rooms have very little holes in them at all contradicting the whole shoot out fairytale spun by the Bolivian authorities.

OhNoYouDidn't

This young man apparantly sported an SS tattoo.

I get the feeling here he was a young zealot who was very very far out of his depth. The Bolivian Cops clearly took no chances and bumped him off, but he was part of a heavily armed group of extremists with form who appear to have been up to no good.

Its a sad story.

I wonder will all the posters on here who lionised the Irish mercenaries killed in Iraq and Afghanistan be as quick to defend this guy? For consistancy.

Lemming

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

This young man apparantly sported an SS tattoo.

I get the feeling here he was a young zealot who was very very far out of his depth. The Bolivian Cops clearly took no chances and bumped him off, but he was part of a heavily armed group of extremists with form who appear to have been up to no good.

And apparently, he wasn't sporting a tattoo with any sort of nazi association. So the moral of this contradiction would be to quit with the random gossip speculation and see what comes of it instead of regurgitating something you heard from someone who heard from someone who heard it from their dog's flea's great great grandfather twenty seven times removed on the side of their left testicle because we just. don't. know.

I'm not defending the lad, but I will keep an open mind and instinct is telling me that he may be a rather unfortunate victim in all of this given how absolutely dirty South/Latin American politics is, and the fact that a left-wing government is in power. I would hasten to point out that left and right wing bodies are so far apart that they sit beside each other ...

Its a sad story.

You forgot the bit about the story reeking to high heaven of absolute sh*t.

gandalf

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

This young man apparantly sported an SS tattoo.

Please stop reguritating the dross that passes for arguement and discussion on other sites. I have seen the picture of his tattoo. I know quite a few lads who have similar ones. Saying it is Neo-Nazi is pathetic and mis-information of the higest order.

The questions that need to be answered are from Mr Dwyers side of things.

What exactly was he doing in Bolivia, holiday, work, revolution?

Was he employed as a bodyguard or did he have any active role in this perceived plot (if indeed there was a plot)?

From his previous employers side.

What kind of training requires that one of their employees needs to be sent to Bolivia?

Were they involved in getting Mr Dwyer his latest job, if so what was their relationship with his new employer?

From the Bolivian Authorities side.

Why were CCTV cameras off for the duration of the assault on the hotel, surely it would have been more use to the authorities to have this footage if the operation was legitimate?

Why did they kill these men when it appears they were unarmed and taken by surprise?

Were the mens fate decided before the operation begun?

Was the operation legal, reports coming from Bolivia are saying the forces involved did not have the correct warrants?

Was the operation designed to make Morales look strong at the Summit of the Americas?

Gone West

I'm living in this part of the world at the moment, and can give a little insight to this story.

gandalf wrote: »

From the Bolivian Authorities side.

Why were CCTV cameras off for the duration of the assault on the hotel, surely it would have been more use to the authorities to have this footage if the operation was legitimate?

Standard protocol for any army op down here, CCTV is always shut off first. The army is out to protect itself, not to have public domain accountability. Yes its wrong, but thats the way it is.

gandalf wrote: »

Why did they kill these men when it appears they were unarmed and taken by surprise?

Any number of reasons. PR, bad intel, poorly trained army, etc.
Looks like they were just shot in the head while in bed, and a little story was invented about a 30 min shootout to cover up their mistake.

gandalf wrote: »

Were the mens fate decided before the operation begun?

Absolutely. Armys here are mostly 19 year olds, and they get instructions which they just carry out.

gandalf wrote: »

Was the operation legal, reports coming from Bolivia are saying the forces involved did not have the correct warrants?

Most army killings in South America do not have official warrants. Its par for the course unfortunately.

gandalf wrote: »

Was the operation designed to make Morales look strong at the Summit of the Americas?

Thats a decent theory. Morales is a little Chavez fanboy, and this is exactly the sort of thing that the whole left wing Bolivarian revolution boyos are at. I would reckon that that is partly it, but that they had some poor intel to begin with, as well as probably some other factors which may or may not come out in the wash.

This is all IMO, but I reckon that the Irish lad was a patsy and took a fall.
It looks like he was one of those Airsoft Walter Mittys who met up with a dangerous Eastern European in Ireland.
The story about him being sent to Bolivia for training is total bullshoot. Anybody who has ever been to Bolivia will confirm that nobody goes there to train for anything. Its one of the most backward countries in SA, and for an imperfect Spanish speaker, its very unlikely.
Most Irish travellers do not just go to Bolivia, they will travel there by bus from Peru, on their way to Chile/Argentina, or vice versa. Its not the sort of place you travel all the way from Ireland to. Its the sort of place you stop off for 2 weeks on a backpacking journey.
I would say that he met this guy in Ireland, and was offered a job of coming to help him, or to be his bodyguard. And he gave his family the story of going to Bolivia to train as an excuse, because he didn't want to tell them the truth. It looks like the "training" story came from the family, not the company.

Tool, tbh.

Uniden

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Consular staff sent to La Paz as soon as the story broke; body released and arrangements in train to have it returned home; interview with local law enforcement agencies lined up for tomorrow. I think our civil servants from the Dept of Foreign Affairs are doing their job.

We will see from past experience and talking to other families unless your a well to do person from a affluent family it wont be as simple as that..

P. Breathnach

Uniden wrote: »

We will see from past experience and talking to other families unless your a well to do person from a affluent family it wont be as simple as that..

I have no idea what the family circumstances of this young man were, but it looks to me that your attack on the staff of Department of Foreign Affairs was unwarranted: everything you claimed about them seems to be wrong.

ilkhanid

If (and I emphasize 'if as so much about this affair is still unclear and subject to rumour) one of the bodies had its hands tied, as was reported to have seen in one photograph,then it went beyond a mistake or the standard trigger-happy soldiery. It looks like summary execution.

Frankie Lee

Lemming wrote: »

And apparently, he wasn't sporting a tattoo with any sort of nazi association. So the moral of this contradiction would be to quit with the random gossip speculation and see what comes of it instead of regurgitating something you heard from someone who heard from someone who heard it from their dog's flea's great great grandfather twenty seven times removed on the side of their left testicle because we just. don't. know.

I'm not defending the lad, but I will keep an open mind and instinct is telling me that he may be a rather unfortunate victim in all of this given how absolutely dirty South/Latin American politics is, and the fact that a left-wing government is in power. I would hasten to point out that left and right wing bodies are so far apart that they sit beside each other ...



You forgot the bit about the story reeking to high heaven of absolute sh*t.

To me it looks like an SS at the bottom, add that to the company he was keeping it would suggest a nazi tattoo.

Lemming

Frankie Lee wrote: »

To me it looks like an SS at the bottom, add that to the company he was keeping it would suggest a nazi tattoo.

That does not look nazi to me. Looks far more quasi-tribal to me, as the rest of the curvature suggested by the vanes on either of the "SS" suggest. How about you look at the rest of the tattoo eh?

Your analysis reminds me of those psychology pictures where there are about twenty different things in them ...


But as I write this, I realise that you're just not going to get it. Nor the fact that this is two people arguing semantics that only one person can answer. And that person is dead. Under very, very suspect circumstances at that.

FTA69

That's not a Nazi tattoo at all, a pile of sh*te and shoddy workmanship, yes, but not a Nazi tattoo.

dsmythy

Frankie Lee wrote: »

To me it looks like an SS at the bottom, add that to the company he was keeping it would suggest a nazi tattoo.

I can't believe the stretch that it takes to call that some sort of Nazi tattoo. It's looks like a standard tribal design. Only if you're looking for such things would you find the patterns that stretch out towards the bottom as actually meaning something rather than just being part of the whole tattoo.

murfie

The more i read about this story the more its clear that is was a plot by the Bolivian government, this guy was just out of college! He wasnt a mercenary! He was a civil/construction graduate just last year, 2008. He was killed it looks like in cold blood as a patsy, asleep in his bed. I feel sorry for his family as they will never know exactly what happened i fear.

Ronan|Raven

If you look closely enough at his tattoo you can almost make out the quake four logo...

The whole thing stink indeed.

DeVore

"Me thinks it is like a weasel" ...


The whole thing stinks to high heaven. I'd like to see what the Dept of FA comes back with but I think it may very well be "FA".

DeV.

OhNoYouDidn't

murfie wrote: »

The more i read about this story the more its clear that is was a plot by the Bolivian government, this guy was just out of college! He wasnt a mercenary! He was a civil/construction graduate just last year, 2008. He was killed it looks like in cold blood as a patsy, asleep in his bed. I feel sorry for his family as they will never know exactly what happened i fear.

He had graduated from college and was working as a security contractor for this Hungarian chap.

Whats not in dispute is that he worked for a mercenary.

Whats not in dispute is that the group he workerd for were armed to the teeth and planning an operation.

What is unclear is the role of Mr Dwyer in the mercanary group. Whether he was an extreme right winger who was there to kill a leftist leader, a bodyguard or a youngfella who got out of his depth with some Eastern European hard men is the question.

As for the killings, its a straight down the line shoot first operation. If you think the ERU or ARW would act any differently faced with a group of well armed foreign mercenaries who were planning on killing Cowen, well good for you.

Lemming

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

He had graduated from college and was working as a security contractor for this Hungarian chap.

Whats not in dispute is that he worked for a mercenary.

Ummm, a "mercenary" who has spent at least the last decade working as a journalist, writing books, making TV documentaries, film, etc. I mean, if i were to go ovrethrow a government, I'd be making films and writing books and not practicin my insurgency skills somewh ... oh wait ... *cough*

Consider the apparent motive for being in Bolivia as a film crew. Then consider the make up of the group and its age demographic:

A 50-something year old (the hungarian in question) ex war vet. A 60 year old ex war vet. A musician, an IT guy who worked in banks, and a college graduate. Clearly the background & skillset for a merc. group of men in their prime to take on state security forces ... if you insist that is ... excuse me whilst I swallow a load of "if that isn't smelling of sh*t I don't know what is".

Whats not in dispute is that the group he workerd for were armed to the teeth and planning an operation.

"Armed to the teeth" with incredibly obsolete firearms that I'd dare say are also of questionable reliability. They're antiques for christ sake!

the_syco

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Whats not in dispute is that the group he workerd for were armed to the teeth and planning an operation.

What's not in dispute is this is what the Bolivian police said, and also that there was a big shoot out, and they killed him.

It's a pity he was shot in the back of the head, as that discredits their entire fairytale...

OhNoYouDidn't

Lemming wrote: »

Ummm, a "mercenary" who has spent at least the last decade working as a journalist, writing books, making TV documentaries, film, etc. I mean, if i were to go ovrethrow a government, I'd be making films and writing books and not practicin my insurgency skills somewh ... oh wait ... *cough*

Consider the apparent motive for being in Bolivia as a film crew. Then consider the make up of the group and its age demographic:

A 50-something year old (the hungarian in question) ex war vet. A 60 year old ex war vet. A musician, an IT guy who worked in banks, and a college graduate. Clearly the background & skillset for a merc. group of men in their prime to take on state security forces ... if you insist that is ... excuse me whilst I swallow a load of "if that isn't smelling of sh*t I don't know what is".

"Armed to the teeth" with incredibly obsolete firearms that I'd dare say are also of questionable reliability. They're antiques for christ sake!

He described HIMSELF as a "brigade commander".

Whether they were any actual threat remains to be seen, but the reality is this guy was purporting to be in Bolivia to militarily support a seperatist movement. Mr Dwyer was working for him as a security contractor.

What do you think these non-nationals, more than one of which has previous figthing as a right wing mercenary, were doing, armed, in a Bolivian Hotel?

OhNoYouDidn't

the_syco wrote: »

What's not in dispute is this is what the Bolivian police said, and also that there was a big shoot out, and they killed him.

It's a pity he was shot in the back of the head, as that discredits their entire fairytale...

Please read my post. I am not disputing that they were taken out by the authorities.

But I'm wondering what do people expect? Even if they weren't what they claimed, they must have expected a reaction. And in South America, the reaction to threats on a Presidents life tends to be brutal.

Lemming

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

He described HIMSELF as a "brigade commander".

He described himself as a brigade commander in what context exactly? Past tense in reference to his time fighting decades ago?

Whether they were any actual threat remains to be seen, but the reality is this guy was purporting to be in Bolivia to militarily support a seperatist movement. Mr Dwyer was working for him as a security contractor.

All according to the Bolivian government. You'll excuse me if I really don't trust a word that comes out of their mouths. I would also hasten to point out that the reality (such an unfortunate choice of word that you used) is the following; we haven't a f*cking clue what the reality is, other than the entire debacle reeks of political bullsh*t of the highest, and most contemptably absurd level.

I wouldn't be using the word "reality" next to any statement by te Bolivian government at this time if I were you.

What do you think these non-nationals, more than one of which has previous figthing as a right wing mercenary, were doing, armed, in a Bolivian Hotel?

More than one. Funny thing word play. I could turn your statement around and ask you what a bunch of non-nationals, less than half of which had any previous military experience were doing in a Bolivian Hotel? further the point that of the two (i.e. more than one) that did have such experience, the youngest was in his fifties.

OhNoYouDidn't

Lemming wrote: »

He described himself as a brigade commander in what context exactly? Past tense in reference to his time fighting decades ago?

All according to the Bolivian government. You'll excuse me if I really don't trust a word that comes out of their mouths. I would also hasten to point out that the reality (such an unfortunate choice of word that you used) is the following; we haven't a f*cking clue what the reality is, other than the entire debacle reeks of political bullsh*t of the highest, and most contemptably absurd level.

I wouldn't be using the word "reality" next to any statement by te Bolivian government at this time if I were you.

More than one. Funny thing word play. I could turn your statement around and ask you what a bunch of non-nationals, less than half of which had any previous military experience were doing in a Bolivian Hotel? further the point that of the two (i.e. more than one) that did have such experience, the youngest was in his fifties.

I'm a bit confused. You acknowledge that the group was armed and contained mercenaries but also claim that the Bolivians trumped up charges and these guys are innocent victims of a plot to frame them. Can you make up your mind?

What I am saying is that whatever the actual capabilites of this gang, they were clearly up to something. Having said that, I don't condone shooting them in their beds.

I'm a bit confused as to your angle here? Why are you so vociferous in defending this group and its motives?

oscarBravo

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

What I am saying is that whatever the actual capabilites of this gang, they were clearly up to something.

According to the uncorroborated evidence of a senior police officer, perhaps?