Teaching Qualifications - a few facts worth knowing

ShriekingSheet

This is something that has come up a few times on the forum. Certain golf teachers names are bandied about, some of whom are recommended highly by one user and derided by the next. Often, rumour and reputation play a big part in forming people's opinion, but I thought the details below might be of benefit to those who regularly visit the forum looking for a good pro recommendation. I also think it's worth pointing out the facts as opposed to the locker room talk.

My assumption was that all teaching pros did their four years under the PGA course working under a head coach as a shop-keeper essentially while studying theory, taking exams, doing some teaching, playing some assistants events and working on their own game.

As it turns out, there's another organisation called the European Golf Teachers Federation (http://www.egtf.co.uk/EGTF.html).

One pro in particular who excells at promoting his service has an EGTF qualification rather than being a PGA pro.

What do you need to become an EGTF qualified golf instructor?
You need to do a one week course which costs £1,000. In terms of playing ability, "you will need to achieve 83 on a 72-par course". Also according the the FAQs on the EGTF site "there is no handicap or age limit for the diploma courses, and women are more than welcome".`

FAQs : http://www.egtf.co.uk/EGTF.html

The first three FAQs relate to the PGA and clarifying that the EGTF and PGA are two totally different bodies.
"We are a business, and the PGA are a separate business. It is not up to either party to recognise one another, nor are we, or they entitled to suggest it is their position to recognise the other. That is like asking if McDonald's recognise Burger King."

The two points offered under the "advantage of EGTF over PGA" are:
"The opportunity to have access to low cost teaching insurance
The opportunity to become a sports coach UK member (the National Coaching Foundation)"


I don't know if EGTF teachers charge the same or less than PGA professionals, but it does seem that a guy with a 13 handicap, a thousand euro and a week to spare could go and do this. I think it's worth a thread anyway. I'm by no means suggesting the PGA system isn't flawed, but at the same time, I couldn't believe what I was reading when I saw the EGTF site.

Codofwar

If thats the case any old tom, dick or harry could go off and become a golf instructer, I almost used the word "pro" for that.
I think too with regards getting lessons from pro's is peoples personal preference. I might click with a pro and learn a lot from him/her whereas someone else might not like the person and not learn anything.

BUACHAILL

I know that there is another way to obtain your coaching certificate from the PGA. Again all you need to do is enroll on the course which is based at one particular course for exams etc and your learning is mostly home study with a few week/ weekend workshops. As far as I am aware you do not need any specific handicap and everyone is welcome to take it up.

It was my understanding that the pro 4 year program is more directed at the individual becoming a professional player and covers all aspects of the game from coaching to running a business !

ShriekingSheet

BUACHAILL wrote: »

I know that there is another way to obtain your coaching certificate from the PGA. Again all you need to do is enroll on the course which is based at one particular course for exams etc and your learning is mostly home study with a few week/ weekend workshops. As far as I am aware you do not need any specific handicap and everyone is welcome to take it up.

It was my understanding that the pro 4 year program is more directed at the individual becoming a professional player and covers all aspects of the game which covers every aspect of the game from coaching to running a business !

Can you find any detail on your first point? I'd be really surprised if that's the case. I know several guys who over the years decided to become teaching pros and those that were off 5 or 6 handicap definitely had to work to get to 4 and then submit their application.

As regards the 4 year programme being directed at people who want to purely play - I wouldn't really agree seeing as the vast majority of the course is how to teach and how to run a pro-shop.

BUACHAILL

www.pga.info/PGANationalTrainingAcademy/34497409.htm

Go on and have a look for yourself !! I wasnt making it up

On my second point I was a little broad, the 4 year program is geared towards golfers who have the ability to become professional players, The 4 year program covers all aspects of this from coaching to running a business ( a business as in a pro shop )

stockdam

My initial comments (which I may retract when I think about it more).


Qualifications can be misleading........some business qualifications take years to get and you have to sit quite difficult exams (eg Medical doctor). Some however are a week's course (what are you going to really learn in a week).

Back to the topic.

Is a PGA approved teaching pro any better than an EGTF one........possibly not. Is handicap important? One of the most respected teaching pros is Leadbetter but compared to the guys he teaches his handicap is poor. So what's wrong with being taught by an 11 handicapper......he may know more theory and may be a better teacher than a pro. Ok so he can't actually hit the ball any better than I can but he/she may be able to see what I am doing wrong. One of the most knowledgeable teachers I know of plays off 8 (he's a pratt and he's from the U.S......but he knows his stuff).

An 11 handicapper could maybe even teach a beginner better than a low handicap pro.

So I'm not sure there's a relationship between handicap and the ability to teach.

Ok I don't agree with a week's long course - nobody will be able to teach properly after that.

The only way of us finding a good teacher is by word of mouth. That means far far more than any qualifications.

Codofwar

The issue I would have with being taught by an 11 handicapper that charges for his advice rather than someone you meet on the course or range and spots something you might be doing wrong would be that if they were such a good teacher why would they not be able to fix their own game also. If they knew more theory than a pga trained pro then they should be able to play to a lower handicap also no? just my 2 cents

ShriekingSheet

BUACHAILL wrote: »

www.pga.info/PGANationalTrainingAcademy/34497409.htm

Go on and have a look for yourself !! I wasnt making it up

On my second point I was a little broad, the 4 year program is geared towards golfers who have the ability to become professional players, The 4 year program covers all aspects of this from coaching to running a business ( a business as in a pro shop )

Sorry, I can't find anything on that page that shows a quick route to being a PGA pro - can you quote the bit you're talking about?

BUACHAILL

a lot of people get more enjoyment from coaching as opposed to playing. personally I rather play but I agree with Stockdam your ability to coach has nothing to do whatsoever with your ability to play. yes you need a solid understanding of the theory and the swing etc but at the same time if you have a natural flair for coaching and can put it across to people that they understand what it is your correcting and they learn from this what difference does your own handicap have ???

Codofwar

Thats true, its just personally id feel more comfortable knowing that the person teaching me is able to do themselves what they are tring to show me. Might be just me though.

BUACHAILL

I never said become a PGA pro nor did I say it was a quick route, I said receive your coaching certificate from the PGA and its on that page if you look.

stockdam

Codofwar wrote: »

The issue I would have with being taught by an 11 handicapper that charges for his advice rather than someone you meet on the course or range and spots something you might be doing wrong would be that if they were such a good teacher why would they not be able to fix their own game also. If they knew more theory than a pga trained pro then they should be able to play to a lower handicap also no? just my 2 cents

Yes I understand your thinking but I don't think it works like that.

Why then can't/couldn't Leadbetter play to a much better standard?

Being able to know what to do and doing it are different things.

I've asked a fair number of scratch players questions about the swing and a lot of them have no real idea what they do nor how to spot problems in other people's swings.

My point is that if the teacher is good and comes with a lot of recommendation then I don't think his/her handicap is an issue. And on the other side, just because a person is a great player doesn't mean that they have a clue how to teach.

ShriekingSheet

BUACHAILL wrote: »

I agree with Stockdam your ability to coach has nothing to do whatsoever with your ability to play

Well we'll agree to disagree on that one. I don't believe teaching golf simply requires a basic knowledge of relevent engineering and physics. I'm not saying you need to be a major winner to teach people to win a major, but there's a reasonable line and IMO shooting 11 over par is not a reasonable line.

Eitherway you look at it, one guy is chosing teaching and playing golf as his career, dedicating three or four years of his life to it. The same way you or I might go to DIT or DCU. The other guy is investing a week of his time and a grand of his money.

BUACHAILL

Codofwar wrote: »

Thats true, its just personally id feel more comfortable knowing that the person teaching me is able to do themselves what they are tring to show me. Might be just me though.

If I am honest I think I would like a coach who has played to a high level also.

However if I really clicked with a coach and I knew he was improving my game and I was losing shots it wouldnt matter if he was off +3 or never played the game

ManFromAtlantis

would expect a huy or gal to be in or around scratch or at least 2 or below.
good thread btw.

markie4

Only ever used a PGA pro for coaching so can't really comment on EGTF but....

What percentage of assistant pro's go down that route intending to teach/coach rather than follow the dream of playing as a professional golfer?
I'd say most of them pay more attention to the playing side....coaching is usually an afterthought.
The fact that good coaches are produced from this system is an afterthought, certainly not the aim of the system. To play devils advocate, how much of that 3-4 years training is actually spent giving coaching, studying swing theory, studying various learning theories?

How receptive and interested are Asst pro's to the material presented? In my opinion it's going to depend on the individual's application and interest in coaching, but I'd guess most of them are choosing playing rather than teaching as their primary aim.

In real life most people who "teach" have had to spend some extra time learning how to teach rather than relying just on their technical expertise gained from their basic qualification.

ShriekingSheet

markie4 wrote: »

Only ever used a PGA pro for coaching so can't really comment on EGTF but....

What percentage of assistant pro's go down that route intending to teach/coach rather than follow the dream of playing as a professional golfer?
I'd say most of them pay more attention to the playing side....coaching is usually an afterthought.
The fact that good coaches are produced from this system is an afterthought, certainly not the aim of the system. To play devils advocate, how much of that 3-4 years training is actually spent giving coaching, studying swing theory, studying various learning theories?

How receptive and interested are Asst pro's to the material presented? In my opinion it's going to depend on the individual's application and interest in coaching, but I'd guess most of them are choosing playing rather than teaching as their primary aim.

In real life most people who "teach" have had to spend some extra time learning how to teach rather than relying just on their technical expertise gained from their basic qualification.

I'd agree with alot of that but on the "going into the PGA to play rather than teach" point, I'd suggest those who want to play at the highest levels of the pro game are more likely to stay amateur for longer, then go to Q School or try and play their way on from a lower tour. It's well known that the likes of Ian Poulter and Damien McGrane are among the few who did their 4 year stint and became good players on the professional circuit.

The "players" know that if they can't play and win for Ireland and the Walker Cup team they probably can't make it on tour.

It's not a hard and fast rule but you see what I'm getting at. Of course they're human and will still dream, but I think the bulk of the guys turning pro off 1-4 handicaps know they're going in as a teacher and to develop their game alongside that.

markie4

ManFromAtlantis wrote: »

would expect a huy or gal to be in or around scratch or at least 2 or below.
good thread btw.

Why this is a necessity?
To equate golf to business life, this would be similar to saying that only those earning over €250k should be allowed show (teach) new employees to do anything from answering phones to creating a budget for a large multinational.



By all means, have an "expert" teach some of the more complex things, as would be done in business, but there are many simple things which could be taught to a beginner by a reasonably qualified mid-handicapper practising good teaching principles, making the game more accessible.

There's an old saying: those who can do, those who can't teach.

I think we can be a bit precious about the mystique of golf at times;)

conno16

all you need from a good pro is an assessment of where you're at in terms of golfing ability and then a plan to improve that based on the time at hand
if its a half day session for example, the pro will typically identify a few elements of your swing and concentrate on rectifying those
doesn't matter if hes a failed pro golfer or a dedicated "teacher" IMO
he should have the expertise to do that

ShriekingSheet

markie4 wrote: »

By all means, have an "expert" teach some of the more complex things, as would be done in business, but there are many simple things which could be taught to a beginner by a reasonably qualified mid-handicapper practising good teaching principles, making the game more accessible.

There's an old saying: those who can do, those who can't teach.

I think we can be a bit precious about the mystique of golf at times;)

In fairness, a mid handicapper showing a beginner the basis is not the thrust of my point above. My annoyance is with people doing a one week course and marketing themselves as a "golf academy". Which is what is going on.

BUACHAILL

I think everyone agree's with you on that point in fairness !!
well i sure do how can you become a coach overnight...

ShriekingSheet

BUACHAILL wrote: »

I think everyone agree's with you on that point in fairness !!
well i sure do how can you become a coach overnight...

It's especially frustrating when you consider the guys who have worked at their game to get to 4 and apply for the PGA, have done their 3 or 4 years and passed their exams in the Belfry and then are having business taken off them by these guys who've made far less commitment and provide a less qualified service.

BUACHAILL

yeah I agree with that also and I know who you are getting at but in fairness just because u do put in all this time does not ensure that you are a stronger coach. Stronger player absolutely no question but not all pro players are cut out for coaching.

I think people who do say do the one week course will always get lambs to make money off, but anyone who knows a little bit about the game and pride's themselves on getting better at the game will put serious time and effort in to getting the right coach for them and if this means the (one week coach guy) well maybe he is very good at it because anyone who values their time, game and money will chose wisely anyway.

markie4

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

In fairness, a mid handicapper showing a beginner the basis is not the thrust of my point above. My annoyance is with people doing a one week course and marketing themselves as a "golf academy". Which is what is going on.

I accept the point you're getting at...and I'm sure it's frustrating for you to see, but if someone in one these "academies" has spent the money to set up, advertise and market themselves but can't coach, they'll quickly go out of business. But if he's retaining customers, he/they must be doing something right? Presumably as with PGA graduates, there'll be a range of standards of graduates of this EGTF.

I honestly can't judge the quality of them, because I haven't been, and probably won't ever go, as I'm happy to go to my club pro.

Hobart

I know the thread was started with the premise that the it appears that it's easy to gain some sort of qualification that says you are a golf teacher, and be affiliated to some code or another, but I do think that it misses a couple of fundamental points.

I've had a few lessons in my day (8 or 9) and they have always been booked on the basis of word of mouth and/or recommendation. I have never blindly gone to any pro or coach and asked/paid for a lesson, never.

I also see that the thread has taken a bit of a turn towards the "well if you can't play off +99, your obviously not a good coach" type comments. This is totally wrong. people forget that one of the most respected coaches in the game in Dave Pelz (an engineer btw). Who currently coaches Harrington? Bob Torrance, anybody know what he plays off?

copacetic

Ok this is getting a bit close to the edge, lets keep it general.

ShriekingSheet

Hobart wrote: »

I know the thread was started with the premise that the it appears that it's easy to gain some sort of qualification that says you are a golf teacher, and be affiliated to some code or another, but I do think that it misses a couple of fundamental points.

I've had a few lessons in my day (8 or 9) and they have always been booked on the basis of word of mouth and/or recommendation. I have never blindly gone to any pro or coach and asked/paid for a lesson, never.

Yes, I appreciate you haven't, but how many people blindly ask on here? Or blindly do a google search because they don't know people to ask and get WOM feedback? People who don't play golf booking lessons as a present for thier spouse? Plenty. And it's those guys I'd be worried about. Not match-play organising gurus such as yourself

markie4

Think hobart and Buachaill have it spot on, anybody who's serious about getting coaching is not going to randomly pick the closest club/range or some name out of a hat, they'll rely on personal recommendations.

Those same lambs to the slaughter could just as easily be duped/coached (delete as appropriate) by a poor PGA teaching pro as a poor EGTF teaching pro or any other qualification bought or earned.

Sheet, it's probably better to highlight again, those coaches you and others would recommend

stockdam

I think we all agree that we probably would all go to a low handicap player or pro for lessons but I think that's maybe irrational.

There are also different levels of teaching. I'd suggest that somebody who is very good with beginners may be useless with touring pros (and maybe vice-versa).

All we can do is to use word of mouth; just like we'd probably choose a plumber. That's one of the best things about a forum such as this.......we can quickly get recommendations from others who we respect.

Hobart

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Yes, I appreciate you haven't, but how many people blindly ask on here? Or blindly do a google search because they don't know people to ask and get WOM feedback? People who don't play golf booking lessons as a present for thier spouse? Plenty. And it's those guys I'd be worried about. Not match-play organising gurus such as yourself

That's fair enough tbh SS, but it's kinda not the point I was trying to make. The point I'm actually trying to make, is that one does not have to be a scratch golfer or pro, to be a good teacher of golf.

We all (as consumers) can be "ripped off" by somebody saying than can do XYZ, when they can't, and the same for any product on any market. Heck, I'm sure that there are teaching pro's out there that could not give a fig when giving a lesson, and their handicap/teaching qualification means SFA, when it comes to the quality of information that they are trying to impart.

My point is/was that the best teachers are not necessarily those who are the best qualified to teach .

Sandwich

Codofwar wrote: »

If thats the case any old tom, dick or harry could go off and become a golf instructer, I almost used the word "pro" for that.

Do you not simply have to accept a prize greater than €750 (or something) and you are a golf 'pro' ?

Hobart

Sandwich wrote: »

Do you not simply have to accept a prize greater than €750 (or something) and you are a golf 'pro' ?

No.

1916_clan

moderator!

It's clear has a sunny day that ShriekingSheet has a agenda here.

I know 2 egtf golf instructors who have each taught golf for over 12 years and are highly reputable both were under 5 handicap before turning pro. 3 qualifications are licensed to teach in the U.K and Ireland, Pga, Egtf and Wtf.

Interesting point is that most egtf pros are pga students who didn't want to do 5 years working in a store to learn how to teach golf.

Would you believe that working in a tennis store for 5 years would make you a great tennis player or coach????

Its clear ShriekingSheet is after 1 pro in particular who is very well known and respected, or else he would have talked about other qualifications.

Shouldn't be allowed to use boards to bash other people who work hard in our present climate.

ShriekingSheet

Eh, firstly, let the moderator moderate. If there's facts being highlighted here that you don't like, make a counter-argument.

Asking the moderator to kill the thread just makes it seem like you're trying to paper over the valid issues I've raised. The thrust of my argument is that many people could benefit from knowing some of the above when chosing their golf teacher. It seems you'd rather people didn't know the details I've posted.

You can't derride the PGA course as "5 years working in a shop". That's just exagurrating the truth to support your own argument.

Saying that EGTF is a one week course that can be done by anyone with a thousand euro who can shoot 11 over par is not an exagurration - it's a simple fact.

1916_clan wrote: »

moderator!

It's clear has a sunny day that ShriekingSheet has a agenda here.

I know 2 egtf golf instructors who have each taught golf for over 12 years and are highly reputable both were under 5 handicap before turning pro. 3 qualifications are licensed to teach in the U.K and Ireland, Pga, Egtf and Wtf.

Interesting point is that most egtf pros are pga students who didn't want to do 5 years working in a store to learn how to teach golf.

Would you believe that working in a tennis store for 5 years would make you a great tennis player or coach????

Its clear ShriekingSheet is after 1 pro in particular who is very well known and respected, or else he would have talked about other qualifications.

Shouldn't be allowed to use boards to bash other people who work hard in our present climate.

thegen

1916_clan wrote: »

moderator!

It's clear has a sunny day that ShriekingSheet has a agenda here.

I know 2 egtf golf instructors who have each taught golf for over 12 years and are highly reputable both were under 5 handicap before turning pro. 3 qualifications are licensed to teach in the U.K and Ireland, Pga, Egtf and Wtf.

Interesting point is that most egtf pros are pga students who didn't want to do 5 years working in a store to learn how to teach golf.

Would you believe that working in a tennis store for 5 years would make you a great tennis player or coach????

Its clear ShriekingSheet is after 1 pro in particular who is very well known and respected, or else he would have talked about other qualifications.

Shouldn't be allowed to use boards to bash other people who work hard in our present climate.

Sheet is a well respected member of this forum. I do not think he has an agenda.

BUACHAILL

thegen wrote: »

Back chair modding here. Sheet is a well respected member of this forum. Mods please deal with this.

Did u not just do the same thing ??:D just playing

copacetic

Ok, we've had to delete and edit posts and give infractions on this thread. Anymore off topic posts will lead to a minimum weeks ban.

ShriekingSheet

Guys, just to put the above in a nutshell thus far, the key discussion here is around "golf instructor" qualifications. We've had it out about whether it's crucial or not that a good teacher has been a good player but it's not central to the debate.

The below posted by Stockdam sums up why I've posted this...

stockdam wrote: »

All we can do is to use word of mouth; just like we'd probably choose a plumber. That's one of the best things about a forum such as this.......we can quickly get recommendations from others who we respect.

I think it's fair to say there is a significant amount of people who didn't know anything about these qualifications before reading this, and wouldn't have known what to be looking out for before spending their hard earned. This is my little bit of word of mouth. I've stated fact as fact and backed it up, and given my own opinion as opinion. Whether they agree or disagree, I've given people the information and they can make up their own minds after that.

1916_clan

Your facts are spot on,

I investigated it myself before taking up my lessons.
On inquiry I found out from my egtf professional had 4 years training in slade valley golf club in Dublin and had turned pro at the age of 16/17 with handicap of 4.

So iam with you on investigating a pro's background and with any professional service of any kind

<off topic items snipped>

-Chris-

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

I think it's fair to say there is a significant amount of people who didn't know anything about these qualifications before reading this, and wouldn't have known what to be looking out for before spending their hard earned. This is my little bit of word of mouth. I've stated fact as fact and backed it up, and given my own opinion as opinion. Whether they agree or disagree, I've given people the information and they can make up their own minds after that.

I for one am fairly new to this whole Golf thing, and appreciate you bringing this information to my attention.

I'll take what you've said onboard, but I won't let it colour my opinion of any golf instructors I come across. I'll base my assessment of them on how well they teach me. I believe this was the intention of your original post.

Thanks 'sheet.

ShriekingSheet

1916_clan wrote: »

Your facts are spot on,

I investigated it myself before taking up my lessons.
On inquiry I found out from my egtf processional had 4 years training and had turned pro at the age of 16/17 with handicap of 4.

So iam with you on investigating a pro's background and with any professional service of any kind

So you're going to a PGA pro who did his four years, You're really supporting my case here.

And before you go accusing me of being a PGA Pro and have all sorts of agendas, bare in mind that I post here all the time on all sorts of issues. I haven't just arrived to vehimently argue one point as you have. I'm an amateur anyway FYI.

<snipped and edited for content>

Hobart

1916_clan wrote: »

Your facts are spot on,

I investigated it myself before taking up my lessons.
On inquiry I found out from my egtf processional(the 1 you hate ) had 4 years training in slade valley golf club in Dublin and had turned pro at the age of 16/17 with handicap of 4.

So iam with you on investigating a pro's background and with any professional service of any kind

I haven't asked for the thread to be killed did you see any text in my message that says kill the thread, I simply called on a moderator to examine your motives.

You are totally against 1 egtf golf instructor you left evidence to this fact that I would like moderators and posters to be aware of, having tracked your posts I realized you addressed this post yesterday
at 9:16am

and your response was ,

then 2 hours later you are strangely starting a thread that bashes that professional through their qualification.

MOTIVE!
I would like this thread to remain so every 1 can see through what you are, obviously a pga professional with a grudge.

Hmmm...I think you are getting a little ahead of yourself tbh. I see no "evidence" of SS being a "pro with a grudge" and I also see no evidence that he hates anybody tbh.

What he has done is presented the facts as they currently stand. I, for one, was always under the assumption that a teaching pro had some sort of affiliation with the PGA. Turns out, this is not the case. Now, what I do with that information is really my own business, but I would rather be in a position of having that knowledge, than not.

copacetic

Ok, thread closed. It appears all the information has been agreed to be factual and getting into discussion of specific people is not acceptable. Some peoples posts have been edited for this reason