What planet is this guy on...

Darragh29

Ok, I was going to post this in politics, but as it's specifically about job creation and entrepreneurship, or at least that is my gripe with the subject matter here, I thought I'd post it here in this forum, so that those who wish to create employment in this country, can get a feel for the kind of politically coded bullsh*t that you will have to deal with if you want to start up a business in this country...

For anyone who is interested, Cowen spoke at an IMI Leadership Forum last week. You can watch his address here:

http://www.fiannafail.ie/media/entry/brian-cowen-taoiseach-addresses-the-national-leadership-forum/

It is full of loose talk about support for business, the provision of finance for start-up businesses, support for entrepreneurs, support for a new culture of entrepreneurship in Ireland, etc.

Now, on this forum we have people posting every day of the week, some with an idea, some without, but each poster has some urge to create an employment for themselves. For some they will embark on the journey, for some other's they won't bother. That's grand.

Now all this guy had to do is make a connection between the suport that he says is there for people who are up for the challenge of creating employment in a recession, and the people themselves who want to be entrepreneurs.

So he says he will support new businesses.. HOW??? HOW ARE YOU SUPORTING NEW BUSINESSES??? WHERE DO I GO TO APPLY FOR THIS SUPPORT THAT YOU SAY YOU ARE PROVIDING???

This literally makes me want to kick in my PC monitor. You have empty IDA buildings and other state property being paid for, up and down the country, that could be used to get Business Incubation Teams up and running, basically a cluster of small start up businesses operating from one location, you have a two year lease with managable overheads, a secure location and basic admin services...

More importantly, how the F*CK can the leader of this country go into a forum of what are supposed to be management experts and business leaders in the IMI, and not be challenged as to why he is not doing something like I've suggested above??? He goes into a conference room full of supposed business leaders and comes out without any plan or an initiative to create even a single job!!!

Did someone in this conference not think of taking him aside and saying if he could arrange a single IDA industrial unit for use for 5 years and 5 civil servants for one year to support the project, that we could actually start creating jobs immediately and assist people who are up for this challenge???

What in all that's holy is going in this country??? How come it's all talk and absolutely no action with everything in Ireland??? And I don't just blame Cowen, where is the joined up, smart thinking here???

DubTony

This government like so many before it are interested in only one thing. Foreign Direct Investment. The "ability" to create a thousand jobs in one fell swoop announced by a minister to show the public just how good they are. I believe that SMEs create more jobs on an ongoing basis than all the FDI put together (I'm open to correction). However when Hammertime opens a new petrol station and creates a dozen jobs there's no big hullabaloo about it. It doesn't matter that Gerry87's new website will create 20 jobs over the next few years. It's no big deal.

Because politics isn't about what's good for you and me, it's about what's good for the politicians and what they deem to be good for you and me. Take last weeks budget as an example. That was an attempt to show the world that we're doing our part to fix the problem. It doesn't matter that almost every single worker in the country will lose a huge chunk of their disposable income and so have little to offer this ailing economy, Ireland's doing it's bit, so come on Mr. Foreign Investor, throw your spare dollars and Yen on my table and we'll all look good together. We'll just tell the people that it'll work out over the next few years and that we need to tighten up a bit.

The individuals who become politicians these days rarely do it for the satisfaction of serving. (Who needs 100k a year when you're doing what you supposedly love and want to do). If any of us really believe that the people we elect, do the job for the good of the country or for the people who elect them, we need to look at the real and serious possibility that we are deluded. It's about the money, the power, and particularly the back slapping and ego massaging. Remember the embarrassing scenes in Offaly when Cowen was "elected" Taoiseach?

As to why he wasn't questioned by the attendees at the IMI? Personally I think the answer's in the name. It's the Irish Management Institute. It's not the Irish Entrepreneurs Institute, or the Irish Business Owners Institute. The attendees are mostly corporate wage slaves who've never put their hands in their pockets to start anything.

As far as Im concerned Ireland is about the easiest country in the world when it comes to setting up a business or company. The fact that you can go and register a name in the CRO get your VAT number and start trading straight away all for less then 100euro is exceptional and I think the country does a lot to help entrepreneurs etc.

I am based in a particular country in asia. If I want to setup a company I need a registration with the securities and exchange commission. I need a permit from dept of trade and industry. I need a mayors permit, i need a sanitary permit (food or no food), I need a tax/revenue permit. These are the kinds of things that locals and kids out of college cant afford and take months to get so it stifles entrepreneurs and business. This is the case in many countries.

I dont think business people and entrepreneurs should expect free money from the government. Ireland has had it too easy for the last 15 years, with money thrown around everywhere and too much support for people so they dont have to get up off their backside and go and get the money or use their ingenuity to raise it.
People are turning down jobs because the dole pays more or close to the same including housing benefits according to one of the threads here

The country has many problems but making it difficult for start up business and all of that is certainly not one of them.....

maninasia

Dub Tony, pretty spot on.
It's obvious job creation has to be in the picture and the most solid and best jobs are the ones you create for yourself. The government cannot do everything for you, but it can help create a favorable environment for businesses to compete on a global stage and where it is favored to first create a job and second to take a job. As the last poster said, it is quite easy to open a business in Ireland, some of the problems come with high costs and regulations afterwards (then again no businessman will ever say there is a 'fair' rate of tax .

Darragh, you are correct, it´s a load of bollix to be honest with you. My own father has been heavily involved with Fianna Fail for the last 30+ years and he is pretty disgusted with what is going on at the minute and with the recent budget announcement etc. It´s a pretty embarassing situation at the moment. I hope I never have to rely on the state or anyone for a salary (when I finished college and couldn´t get a job little under 6 months ago, I wasn´t allowed claim social welfare, it´s a bit of a joke to be honest.)

They seem to want to help wasters ahead of people who are ambitious and independant enough to be their own thing...

ynotdu

Lucky for him apparently not on this one;)

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Darragh, you are correct, it´s a load of bollix to be honest with you. My own father has been heavily involved with Fianna Fail for the last 30+ years and he is pretty disgusted with what is going on at the minute and with the recent budget announcement etc. It´s a pretty embarassing situation at the moment. I hope I never have to rely on the state or anyone for a salary (when I finished college and couldn´t get a job little under 6 months ago, I wasn´t allowed claim social welfare, it´s a bit of a joke to be honest.)

They seem to want to help wasters ahead of people who are ambitious and independant enough to be their own thing...

And you call yourself the entrepreneur? Doesnt make sense to me, claiming dole or working for potentially the State!! Not trying to start an argument with you but, if you really are an entrepreneur you wouldnt even dream of claiming the dole because its the direct opposite of what an entrepreneur should stand for, in my view anyway. The dole is the drainer of entrepreneurial spirit, and the bringer of daytime TV

Dabko

Deleted User wrote: »

And you call yourself the entrepreneur? Doesnt make sense to me, claiming dole or working for potentially the State!! Not trying to start an argument with you but, if you really are an entrepreneur you wouldnt even dream of claiming the dole because its the direct opposite of what an entrepreneur should stand for, in my view anyway. The dole is the drainer of entrepreneurial spirit, and the bringer of daytime TV

point

delllat

Not to be funny or anythinng but this thread is a joke

it seems like everyones chasing the easy safe option,enterprise grants,funding,free premises to operate on for the first few years with guarantees of not paying rent,social welfare after college??

whats wrong with funding an idea with your own money ?that u have worked and saved for
taking a gamble where the chance to lose is always there so you have to work your nuts off to ensure success
why should the taxpayer fund YOUR business that you are going to profit from ?
Why should you get it easier than all the generations of entrepreneurs that went before you?
I think we are relatively lucky to be able to register a business like someone mentioned for under 100quid but thats not enough for some people who would prefer that the state or third parties basically PAID them to start their own business
everyones got their hand out in this country and nobody noticed during the good times but now the wheels have fallen off and people are still expecting money for nothing

starbelgrade

Deleted User wrote: »

And you call yourself the entrepreneur? Doesnt make sense to me, claiming dole or working for potentially the State!! Not trying to start an argument with you but, if you really are an entrepreneur you wouldnt even dream of claiming the dole because its the direct opposite of what an entrepreneur should stand for, in my view anyway. The dole is the drainer of entrepreneurial spirit, and the bringer of daytime TV

Imagine this - you've been made redundant. You are highly skilled / educated, but in a profession that is suffering & there are no jobs. In the time you are unemployed, you come up with a great business idea. You develop the idea & come up with a business plan. You get some investment & the business takes off. You no longer have to draw the dole. You are now, not only a succesful businessman, but an employer, putting money back into the economy & providing employment.

Now - in the time you are unemployed, what are you supposed to live on? Air? How do you pay the bills? Monopoly money?

For feic sake - if you are made redundant, you are ENTITLED to job seekers benefit. Why on earth would you turn it down?

maninasia

The OP has a very good point though. If the facilities are not being utilised they could certainly be put to better use in the use of start-up local enterprises. Of course the best thing would be to cut local rates and expenses including minimum wage to aid enterprise growth without the need for specific subsidies.

starbelgrade

delllat wrote: »

Not to be funny or anythinng but this thread is a joke

it seems like everyones chasing the easy safe option,enterprise grants,funding,free premises to operate on for the first few years with guarantees of not paying rent,social welfare after college??

whats wrong with funding an idea with your own money ?that u have worked and saved for
taking a gamble where the chance to lose is always there so you have to work your nuts off to ensure success
why should the taxpayer fund YOUR business that you are going to profit from ?
Why should you get it easier than all the generations of entrepreneurs that went before you?
I think we are relatively lucky to be able to register a business like someone mentioned for under 100quid but thats not enough for some people who would prefer that the state or third parties basically PAID them to start their own business
everyones got their hand out in this country and nobody noticed during the good times but now the wheels have fallen off and people are still expecting money for nothing

Not everyone has there own money to start up. They may have a brilliant idea & a sound business plan, but no cash & no way of getting it (especially from the banks). If the taxpayer invests in such businesses, the returns can be much greater than the investment - we get money back in taxes, PRSI payments, rates etc.

You may consider it a "hand-out", but others would consider it a good investment.

DubTony

delllat wrote: »

Not to be funny or anythinng but this thread is a joke

it seems like everyones chasing the easy safe option,enterprise grants,funding,free premises to operate on for the first few years with guarantees of not paying rent,social welfare after college??

whats wrong with funding an idea with your own money ?that u have worked and saved for
taking a gamble where the chance to lose is always there so you have to work your nuts off to ensure success
why should the taxpayer fund YOUR business that you are going to profit from ?
Why should you get it easier than all the generations of entrepreneurs that went before you?
I think we are relatively lucky to be able to register a business like someone mentioned for under 100quid but thats not enough for some people who would prefer that the state or third parties basically PAID them to start their own business
everyones got their hand out in this country and nobody noticed during the good times but now the wheels have fallen off and people are still expecting money for nothing

Darragh's posts was about the supposed support Cowen says is there for new businesses. What is it? Where is it? Indigenous small businesses are the lifeblood of this country. When all the FDI f*cks off back to wherever it came from, it's Irish businesses that will be left. There's little or no support for most of them. From my point of view I'm an unpaid tax collector. I've never received a penny in government funding. And when times get difficult, it's tough sh*t Mr. Businessman. "What a pity you aren't creating a thousand jobs tomorrow. We could probably help you out then." Don't forget that many of the "IDA created" jobs cost a hell of a lot of money per job. When I've created employment it never cost the government a cent. Cowen is bullsh*tting when he talks about this supposed support, and he's allowed get away with the crap.

starbelgrade

DubTony wrote: »

Darragh's posts was about the supposed support Cowen says is there for new businesses. What is it? Where is it? Indigenous small businesses are the lifeblood of this country. When all the FDI f*cks off back to wherever it came from, it's Irish businesses that will be left. There's little or no support for most of them. From my point of view I'm an unpaid tax collector. I've never received a penny in government funding. And when times get difficult, it's tough sh*t Mr. Businessman. "What a pity you aren't creating a thousand jobs tomorrow. We could probably help you out then." Don't forget that many of the "IDA created" jobs cost a hell of a lot of money per job. When I've created employment it never cost the government a cent. Cowen is bullsh*tting when he talks about this supposed support, and he's allowed get away with the crap.

I hate to agree with Cowen, but there IS support for local businesses through the Enterprise Boards. When I set up, I got tonnes of advice from them, had a lot of help from them developing a business plan & recieved a start up grant also. You may not have had any funding, but tell me, did you ever look for any?

RedXIV

starbelgrade wrote: »

I hate to agree with Cowen, but there IS support for local businesses through the Enterprise Boards. When I set up, I got tonnes of advice from them, had a lot of help from them developing a business plan & recieved a start up grant also. You may not have had any funding, but tell me, did you ever look for any?

Not to dismiss your post or anything but i've been looking at setting something up for a few months, ever since i saw headlines saying "70,000 students on the dole when they graduate" and with three other guys in college we're working on setting up our own company. I've been to plenty of Enterprise Ireland talks, enterprise board meetings and to be honest, i've learned virtually nothing and all the advice i've been given is "go talk to this list of professionals" which would cost us a small fortune. In order for us to set up properly, the plan involves me getting a full time job to compliment the part time one i have to pump funds into our company. I've applied for LOADS of various start up grants, incubation schemes etc but i've been denied everything so far.

So when Mr. Cowen says there's support for start up companies, I find it very hard to believe from my own personal experience

DubTony

starbelgrade wrote: »

I hate to agree with Cowen, but there IS support for local businesses through the Enterprise Boards. When I set up, I got tonnes of advice from them, had a lot of help from them developing a business plan & recieved a start up grant also. You may not have had any funding, but tell me, did you ever look for any?

I'm a retailer. AFAIK my business doesn't qualify.

starbelgrade

DubTony wrote: »

I'm a retailer. AFAIK my business doesn't qualify.

Fair enough.

spadder

+1,
Yep, one of the hardest and most expensive part of starting up is finding a secure premises and dealing with all the legal bullsh1t that goes with it. not to mention rates, esb, etc.

Where I live, several IDA factories are lying idle, if they subdivided the warehouses for small industrial units, it would be perfect for small companies.

delllat

starbelgrade wrote: »

Not everyone has there own money to start up. They may have a brilliant idea & a sound business plan, but no cash & no way of getting it (especially from the banks). If the taxpayer invests in such businesses, the returns can be much greater than the investment - we get money back in taxes, PRSI payments, rates etc.

You may consider it a "hand-out", but others would consider it a good investment.

you could always do it the hard way and get a job and SAVE?

plenty of business have been built without relying on grants from govt

Sonnenblumen

I wouldn't be too upset about what the IMI is or isn't. It has suffered downsizing and setbacks on several occasions, and it would be interesting to know how much the State (through FAS & Co) is bankrolling the IMI as a going concern.

When it comes to State supporting new business/entrepeneurs, why most of the 'specialist advisers' have no first hand experience of running a business or any significant track record of private sector employment.

All this fluffy 'hot-air' state speak about supporting/developing 'knowledge economy' is more to do with self preservation than bringing about real change. It's like the whole 'poverty' industry great platitudes, but hey let me get my cut first.

I've said it before, enterprise begins and ends on your own doorstep, if you're looking for handouts/grants, prepare to do the merry-go-round and have little to show at the end of it.

starbelgrade

starbelgrade wrote: »

Imagine this - you've been made redundant. You are highly skilled / educated, but in a profession that is suffering & there are no jobs. In the time you are unemployed, you come up with a great business idea. You develop the idea & come up with a business plan. You get some investment & the business takes off. You no longer have to draw the dole. You are now, not only a succesful businessman, but an employer, putting money back into the economy & providing employment.

Now - in the time you are unemployed, what are you supposed to live on? Air? How do you pay the bills? Monopoly money?

For feic sake - if you are made redundant, you are ENTITLED to job seekers benefit. Why on earth would you turn it down?

I think you make a fair point BUT it is probably one of the few reasons someone should feel eligable for the dole, other then say the inability to work. If your working 10 years your company goes bust then you may need the dole to pay your bills while you get a new job. Fair enough.
However, while many may disagree with me, the majority of people I know on the dole or have been in their lifetime for a decent period of time are not get up and go people. I would go an work in spar then go on the dole to be honest, but thats me. Im a firm believe that everyone should try and be the best they can and work to the best of their abilities. Whats the point in being here otherwise?....

starbelgrade

delllat wrote: »

you could always do it the hard way and get a job and SAVE?

plenty of business have been built without relying on grants from govt

Again, not everyone has that option. I know 2 very succesful people who set up their own businesses with grant aid & they are both very successful. One of them came up with his idea during college & when he left, he didn't have any money, so he got some private investment & grants from the IDA. The company went public a few years back & is doing great, with over 30 full time employees.

The second guy was made redundant in the 90's from a very low paid job. He was married with kids & a mortgage. So again, he'd no money to start up. He got grant aid & a bank loan secured on his house & now employs 250 full time staff.

Both companies have withstood the recession so far & one of them is even taking on more staff. The grants were a great investment as far as intelligent spending of public money. If they hadn't have got them, there'd be 280 jobs less than there is now.

Saving & personal investment is NOT always an option.

starbelgrade

starbelgrade wrote: »

Not everyone has there own money to start up. They may have a brilliant idea & a sound business plan, but no cash & no way of getting it (especially from the banks). .

Life is hard. Business is hard. You need balls and determination to succeed. You cant expect to be handed cash just because you have a good idea and sound business plan. Because a lot of people cant run companies (most startups fail in the first few years). It takes a lot of skills depending on the business.
If your good enough and talented enough you'll find a way of getting your business started, and if you have those qualities youll make it succeed in the long run.
You might invest every cent you have, and your company might fail. But youll learn a valuable lesson and be more careful next time. If the gov is throwing money at people to start business' its just not a sustainable model, and I dont think it will be conducive to making successful business people of the future because its Too Easy

starbelgrade

Deleted User wrote: »

Life is hard. Business is hard. You need balls and determination to succeed. You cant expect to be handed cash just because you have a good idea and sound business plan. Because a lot of people cant run companies (most startups fail in the first few years). It takes a lot of skills depending on the business.
If your good enough and talented enough you'll find a way of getting your business started, and if you have those qualities youll make it succeed in the long run.
You might invest every cent you have, and your company might fail. But youll learn a valuable lesson and be more careful next time. If the gov is throwing money at people to start business' its just not a sustainable model, and I dont think it will be conducive to making successful business people of the future because its Too Easy

Again, I refer to my last post. If the government spend the money wisely, then grants are a good thing. This is not always the case, but it can be.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

And you call yourself the entrepreneur? Doesnt make sense to me, claiming dole or working for potentially the State!! Not trying to start an argument with you but, if you really are an entrepreneur you wouldnt even dream of claiming the dole because its the direct opposite of what an entrepreneur should stand for, in my view anyway. The dole is the drainer of entrepreneurial spirit, and the bringer of daytime TV

And you call yourself "El Rifle", is that because you like to shoot people down? har har

What exactly doesn´t make sense to you?

I went for the dole because I was well within my rights to claim it (or so I thought), turns out I wasn´t allowed claim the dole because my father had a successful career.

I shouldn´t be linked to my father when claiming for something. I was just doing what everyone is entitled to do, I had finished college as a skilled individual and couldn´t get a job so instead of sponging off my daddy, I tried to get my own cash together. What´s your point?

I don´t dream of claiming the dole but it was an opportunity that presented itself to me because I couldn´t get a job (just like the other thousands of graduates at the moment) at the time. I

There are two types of people on the dole; good people who can´t help the situation they are in and abusers. I wanted to do something about it unlike the abusers of the system who don´t know what a condom is and who enjoy queueing up as a hobby because they have nothing else to do so they stroll down to get their social welfare cheque for themselves and their 14 year old pregnant girlfriend.

It´s great having such a positive and totally unrealistic stupid outlook but I wanted to fund my own venture entirely and more importantly, I just wanted what I was entitled to.

Thoie

Deleted User wrote: »

However, while many may disagree with me, the majority of people I know on the dole or have been in their lifetime for a decent period of time are not get up and go people. I would go an work in spar then go on the dole to be honest, but thats me.

Just a quick point - I've heard this a million times "If I was unemployed, I'd go get a job as a...". I thought precisely the same until I became redundant, and found out that no-one wanted to employ me in any Spar, McDonalds, Centra, cleaning company, coffee shop and all the other businesses I visited/called/applied to. Just because you're willing to take any job, doesn't mean that you will necessarily get it. Thankfully I'm now back in full time employment, but during my time on the dole I never did manage to find any kind of minimum wage job just waiting for me to turn up.

To be perfectly honest with you, El Rifle is suffering from the same problem a lot of people suffer from, he is narrow minded and is failing to look at the bigger picture. It´s one thing being "too proud" to go on the dole then there is just pure stupidity, but if you don´t have a choice, then what can you do? That´s what the dole is there for, just because a lot of people abuse it and El Rifle has clearly been affected by this, that´s their issue but a lot of my friends are educated and in the same boat i.e. finding it difficult to get a job, the dole wouldn´t drain their enthusiasm but they have got to start somewhere.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

To be perfectly honest with you, El Rifle is suffering from the same problem a lot of people suffer from, he is narrow minded and is failing to look at the bigger picture. It´s one thing being "too proud" to go on the dole then there is just pure stupidity, but if you don´t have a choice, then what can you do? That´s what the dole is there for, just because a lot of people abuse it and El Rifle has clearly been affected by this, that´s their issue but a lot of my friends are educated and in the same boat i.e. finding it difficult to get a job, the dole wouldn´t drain their enthusiasm but they have got to start somewhere.

Buddy, When I was in your position and I couldnt get a job after college with my honors degree from DIT I knocked on doors in the wind and the rain for 12 hours a day, commission only 8 euro a sale. I didnt go looking for the dole, and I wouldnt take handouts from daddy whether he wanted to give them to me or not.
With that commission I started my own company and knocked on doors for a further two years until I got to a position where I didnt have to anymore. Because of that hard work in the beginning and not waiting around for other people to help me, and looking for handouts, Im in the position now where I have 4 companies and will never have to look back again. Im 4 years older then you.
Call me narrow minded and stupid entrepreneur, but I know what it takes to make yourself successfull as an individual. My arguement is not about pride. This isnt a random work forum, this is supposed to be for entrepreneurs, and here we are talking about the merits of being able to claim the dole. Doesnt sound right to me

Bottom line for me is, if you want to be an entrepreneur and successful then you fight for everything you want. If you have the attitude that I should be getting this, or entitled to that, and then being bitter if you dont get it, how is that going to help you achieve anything? or get to where you want to be?
Nothing should stand in your way certainly not the fact that your not getting free money.



There is always a choice

ynotdu

Deleted User wrote: »

Buddy, When I was in your position and I couldnt get a job after college with my honors degree from DIT I knocked on doors in the wind and the rain for 12 hours a day, commission only 8 euro a sale. I didnt go looking for the dole, and I wouldnt take handouts from daddy whether he wanted to give them to me or not.
With that commission I started my own company and knocked on doors for a further two years until I got to a position where I didnt have to anymore. Because of that hard work in the beginning and not waiting around for other people to help me, and looking for handouts, Im in the position now where I have 4 companies and will never have to look back again. Im 4 years older then you.
Call me narrow minded and stupid entrepreneur, but I know what it takes to make yourself successfull as an individual. My arguement is not about pride. This isnt a random work forum, this is supposed to be for entrepreneurs, and here we are talking about the merits of being able to claim the dole. Doesnt sound right to me

Bottom line for me is, if you want to be an entrepreneur and successful then you fight for everything you want. If you have the attitude that I should be getting this, or entitled to that, and then being bitter if you dont get it, how is that going to help you achieve anything? or get to where you want to be?
Nothing should stand in your way certainly not the fact that your not getting free money.



There is always a choice

el rifle you seem to equate wealth with sucess&happiness as the sole criteria for happiness in life?
hey great you refused help from your dad&own buisness,s now,hope they dont fail as your idea of happiness in life seems utterly based on your wealth as measured in euro,s.?

what would you have done to people so obviously less talented than you(by your account) Public flogging? Culling perhaps?

I dont envy you your wealth,I just feel sorry for people who,s concept of happiness is founded on money alone.It must be lonely?

ynotdu

ynotdu wrote: »

el rifle you seem to equate wealth with sucess&happiness as the sole criteria for happiness in life?
hey great you refused help from your dad&own buisness,s now,hope they dont fail as your idea of happiness in life seems utterly based on your wealth as measured in euro,s.?

what would you have done to people so obviously less talented than you(by your account) Public flogging? Culling perhaps?

I dont envy you your wealth,I just feel sorry for people who,s concept of happiness is founded on money alone.It must be lonely?

Your assuming a lot there ynotdu (incorrectly I might add) and what your saying even if it was my personal opinion is totally irrelevant. Public flogging? To be successful in business you need a single minded approach.

Perhaps your forgetting the purpose of this forum is for business and entrepreneurs. Find me a successful entrepreneur who disagrees with what I have said.
If you cant understand what I'm saying then fair enough, but you dont see me posting in the forest and farming forum or the mathematics forums

VO

I am not one to agree with Cowen, he has made a complete b**ll***s of the countries finances , however , there is support for business out there at present. In the past 12 months I have received capital grants for the local enterprise board andsecured working capital for a new start up. It is now trading well and is on target to make profit in the next 6 months.

Unfortunately the majority of business ideas and start up proposals put to enterprise boards and banks are rubbish. they are not well thought out , they lack a proper business plan and they have no hope of suceeding, Despite the strong belief and commitment of the people putting them forward. These potential entrepreneurs do not want to hear that their ideas are rubbish but that is the reality - sometimes they pursue them at great cost to themselves.

I have met a few of them over the years and it is unfortunate , as with the right idea they might be successful.

RedXIV

I can see where El Rifle is coming from, I always assumed if you start a company, you did it 100% off your own back, simply from personal experience of entreprenurs in the family. And this is what i was planning on doing until a very small bit of research showed alot of resources were supposidly available for start up business's and business expansions. And while i respect any entreprenur who makes it on his own, I think someone who is supposed to be smart enough to start his own company and DOESN'T avail of funding and resources which he is perfectly entitled to from the state probably should rethink his position. Alot of busniess people will tell you that you should use every available resource when starting up a business and usually refer to talent, time and personal ability. but if a resource from the state is available, then you'd be stupid not to take it.

I think the problem here is that while alot of start up companies have been promised support, alot of entreprenures have the creativity to see past the existing measures and have plenty of more effcient ideas which could support them. So the REAL problem is we need entreprenures looking out for other entreprenurs, not politicians.

starbelgrade

RedXIV wrote: »

I can see where El Rifle is coming from, I always assumed if you start a company, you did it 100% off your own back, simply from personal experience of entreprenurs in the family. And this is what i was planning on doing until a very small bit of research showed alot of resources were supposidly available for start up business's and business expansions. And while i respect any entreprenur who makes it on his own, I think someone who is supposed to be smart enough to start his own company and DOESN'T avail of funding and resources which he is perfectly entitled to from the state probably should rethink his position. Alot of busniess people will tell you that you should use every available resource when starting up a business and usually refer to talent, time and personal ability. but if a resource from the state is available, then you'd be stupid not to take it.

I think the problem here is that while alot of start up companies have been promised support, alot of entreprenures have the creativity to see past the existing measures and have plenty of more effcient ideas which could support them. So the REAL problem is we need entreprenures looking out for other entreprenurs, not politicians.

As a student leaving college, he never paid, or paid very litte PAYE, so I can see why he calls social welfare payments "free money". Let him work for 20 years, loose his job, sign on & call his benefits "free money". I hope it all goes well for him though, & he never has to look for help.

delllat

Deleted User wrote: »

And you call yourself "El Rifle", is that because you like to shoot people down? har har

What exactly doesn´t make sense to you?

I went for the dole because I was well within my rights to claim it (or so I thought), turns out I wasn´t allowed claim the dole because my father had a successful career.

I shouldn´t be linked to my father when claiming for something. I was just doing what everyone is entitled to do, I had finished college as a skilled individual and couldn´t get a job so instead of sponging off my daddy, I tried to get my own cash together. What´s your point?

I don´t dream of claiming the dole but it was an opportunity that presented itself to me because I couldn´t get a job (just like the other thousands of graduates at the moment) at the time. I

There are two types of people on the dole; good people who can´t help the situation they are in and abusers. I wanted to do something about it unlike the abusers of the system who don´t know what a condom is and who enjoy queueing up as a hobby because they have nothing else to do so they stroll down to get their social welfare cheque for themselves and their 14 year old pregnant girlfriend.

It´s great having such a positive and totally unrealistic stupid outlook but I wanted to fund my own venture entirely and more importantly, I just wanted what I was entitled to.

Youve got some fcuking cheek asking for social welfare when in your own words your dads "heavily involved in politics"
Also you said "you dont want to sponge off of Daddy"
You would perfer to sponge of the taxpayer???
is it better than the system support you than "heavily involved in politics" daddy?
Honestly,social welfare wasnt designed for upper middle class snobs who dont need it so you shouldnt even ask
im actually glad they didnt give it you
theres people out there that really are living on a crust and people like you are making it harder for them by deciding you would like to get "free money"

RedXIV

RedXIV wrote: »

I think someone who is supposed to be smart enough to start his own company and DOESN'T avail of funding and resources which he is perfectly entitled to from the state probably should rethink his position. .

Agree 100%. If you can get a grant for your startup company by all means. If you get refused though, dont make it a reason not to start would be my philosophy. Id use the refusal to motivate me all the more to make it a success

delllat

delllat wrote: »

Youve got some fcuking cheek asking for social welfare when in your own words your dads "heavily involved in politics"
Also you said "you dont want to sponge off of Daddy"
You would perfer to sponge of the taxpayer???
is it better than the system support you than "heavily involved in politics" daddy?
Honestly,social welfare wasnt designed for upper middle class snobs who dont need it so you shouldnt even ask
im actually glad they didnt give it you
theres people out there that really are living on a crust and people like you are making it harder for them by deciding you would like to get "free money"

I think you're misunderstood. I explained earlier that there are two types of people who claim the dole; good people who need it and abusers. I never said my dad was a corrupt politician, I basically said he is a loyal Fianna Fail fan but that is neither here nor there. I'd appreciate it if you left him out of it.

I was like one of many thousands of other students who couldn't get a job so I applied for what I was entitled to apply for. I'm a good person who was claiming what I was entitled to. Also, I wasn't an entrepreneur then and I'm not now, I'm in the process of setting up a company for myself.

As for how social welfare is not for "upper middle class snobs", open your eyes and look around, there are people who have been made redundant from all walks of life particularly those of a middle class background who now need to claim what is rightfully theirs and I was no different, straight out of college and no job so I claimed for it. Big deal.

I hopefully won't ever need to do it again.

Oh and Dellat, wake up and smell the ****ing coffee, you're not the only tax payer in this country, everyone who works is a taxpayer, I worked during college and paid taxes just like everyone else so don't play that bulls*** with me.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing should stand in your way certainly not the fact that your not getting free money.

There is always a choice

It's not standing in my way, I was straight out of college and only wanted it while I was either looking for another job or deciding what I wanted to do.

Hypothetical situation: 2 people straight out of college with their honours degrees, who is the smarter one? The one who is looking for jobs for months on end with no source of income or the one who is looking for jobs months on end with a source of income coming in?

That's what the dole is there for, just because so many scumbags/abusers have tarnished what is rightfully a helpful source for job seekers or the unemployed.

madmik

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you're misunderstood. I explained earlier that there are two types of people who claim the dole; good people who need it and abusers. I never said my dad was a corrupt politician, I basically said he is a loyal Fianna Fail fan but that is neither here nor there. I'd appreciate it if you left him out of it.

I was like one of many thousands of other students who couldn't get a job so I applied for what I was entitled to apply for. I'm a good person who was claiming what I was entitled to.

As for how social welfare is not for "upper middle class snobs", open your eyes and look around, there are people who have been made redundant from all walks of life particularly those of a middle class background who now need to claim what is rightfully theirs and I was no different, straight out of college and no job so I claimed for it. Big deal.

I hopefully won't ever need to do it again.

You obviously were refused social welfare because you were too rich to get it
you could always exercise some social responsibility and not join the dole queue at first opportunity
You just admitted you were straight out of college when you tried/claimed it
theres a differnce in being poor and hopping on the bandwagon

madmik

madmik wrote: »

You obviously were refused social welfare because you were too rich to get it
you could always exercise some social responsibility and not join the dole queue at first opportunity
You just admitted you were straight out of college when you tried/claimed it
theres a differnce in being poor and hopping on the bandwagon

That's a crock of ****. I was and am not rich, I was an educated jobseeker looking for what I was entitled to and only needed it for about 3 weeks as I got job offers shortly after but I had no money leaving college and don't see why I should have to ask my parents to support me at 23. I think I stopped the process eventually because they wanted to call out to my house to do an inspection and I got so fed up with the time wasting procedure that I decided to just start an ebay business with some stock I got from a friend and I had my own source of income from then on.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Agree 100%. If you can get a grant for your startup company by all means. If you get refused though, dont make it a reason not to start would be my philosophy. Id use the refusal to motivate me all the more to make it a success

I don't see how you got confused with what I was saying. I didn't stop going ahead with my venture because of the dole refusal, I never had a venture to begin with, I'm just saying the extra income I would have received would have been a great benefit to me personally when I was unemployed, I was simply agreeing with Darraghs original post by saying "Yes I agree with you, the current govt are a bunch of **** ups"

I don't quit because something doesn't go my way. I have an excellent work ethic.

EDIT: And I never once called the Dole "free money"

starbelgrade

Deleted User wrote: »

And I never once called the Dole "free money"

El Rifle likened government business grants to getting "free money". He also belives that "The dole is the drainer of entrepreneurial spirit, and the bringer of daytime TV".

He may well have worked hard after college, but then again, most of us who went to college did the exact same. The difference is that for some people, claiming the dole is not an optional thing. Many people have lost their jobs in the last year & most of them have been unable to find an alternative. I think he expects them to live on air & sunshine.

I also completely disagree that the dole encourages a culture of laziness. I guarantee you, that during this recession, there will be more entrepenuers to come out at the end of it. I know many previous PAYE workers who are on the dole now & who are also setting up their own businesses. They've seen how insecure a previously thought of "secure job" can be and in many cases, they come from specialist professions, so simply jumping into another type of job is simply not an option.

So they are forced with taking the situaion into their own hands & I wish them the best of luck.

Thinking that they are all at home watching "Loose Women" and Sile Seoige is just ridiculous & slightly pompous.

DubTony

Wow, I can't believe where this thread has gone. What makes most of you who've had a go, believe that a guy should be berated because he tried to get some dole? Have I missed something here?
The Entrepreneur wasn't abusing the system, he wasn't even looking for something he wasn't entitled to. What's the problem? Get Real lads.

What about the guy who's been running his own business and somehow manages to go broke with huge debt. There's no safety net for him, unless he goes begging on his knees while trying to jump through hoops at the same time.

How's that for abuse of a system?. Puts a slightly different slant on things, doesn't it?

His ex-employees will get dole but the guy who gave them jobs and paid their PRSI (collected without payment and contributed for the privilege of employing someone) gets diddly squat. pffft!!!!

Find something serious to moan about, will you?

[/rant]

ynotdu

Deleted User wrote: »

Your assuming a lot there ynotdu (incorrectly I might add) and what your saying even if it was my personal opinion is totally irrelevant. Public flogging? To be successful in business you need a single minded approach.

Perhaps your forgetting the purpose of this forum is for business and entrepreneurs. Find me a successful entrepreneur who disagrees with what I have said.
If you cant understand what I'm saying then fair enough, but you dont see me posting in the forest and farming forum or the mathematics forums

I despise anybody being ganged up on after reading more postings I feel you are being a bit.but(there,s always a but:))you seem to be saying that being an entreprenour means a person needs to be devoid of humanity& all the other stuff ending in ty or ism.

no sarcasm,no criticism meant on a personal level to You.simply mean a person can be both.
be happy

Thanks for the back up there, I was starting to question my own motives to see how I was in the wrong. I know for sure I wasn't in the wrong and El Rifle is obviously not busy enough with his four businesses to be having a go at me. I hope he finds something worthwhile soon, same goes for Dellat (who was recently banned by the way for posting idiotic pictures in another thread on this forum - I certainly won't be aspiring to be like them when I get my business up and running.)

Sonnenblumen

Darragh29 wrote: »

Ok, I was going to post this in politics, but as it's specifically about job creation and entrepreneurship, or at least that is my gripe with the subject matter here, I thought I'd post it here in this forum, so that those who wish to create employment in this country, can get a feel for the kind of politically coded bullsh*t that you will have to deal with if you want to start up a business in this country...

For anyone who is interested, Cowen spoke at an IMI Leadership Forum last week. You can watch his address here:

http://www.fiannafail.ie/media/entry/brian-cowen-taoiseach-addresses-the-national-leadership-forum/

It is full of loose talk about support for business, the provision of finance for start-up businesses, support for entrepreneurs, support for a new culture of entrepreneurship in Ireland, etc.

Now, on this forum we have people posting every day of the week, some with an idea, some without, but each poster has some urge to create an employment for themselves. For some they will embark on the journey, for some other's they won't bother. That's grand.

Now all this guy had to do is make a connection between the suport that he says is there for people who are up for the challenge of creating employment in a recession, and the people themselves who want to be entrepreneurs.

So he says he will support new businesses.. HOW??? HOW ARE YOU SUPORTING NEW BUSINESSES??? WHERE DO I GO TO APPLY FOR THIS SUPPORT THAT YOU SAY YOU ARE PROVIDING???

This literally makes me want to kick in my PC monitor. You have empty IDA buildings and other state property being paid for, up and down the country, that could be used to get Business Incubation Teams up and running, basically a cluster of small start up businesses operating from one location, you have a two year lease with managable overheads, a secure location and basic admin services...

More importantly, how the F*CK can the leader of this country go into a forum of what are supposed to be management experts and business leaders in the IMI, and not be challenged as to why he is not doing something like I've suggested above??? He goes into a conference room full of supposed business leaders and comes out without any plan or an initiative to create even a single job!!!

Did someone in this conference not think of taking him aside and saying if he could arrange a single IDA industrial unit for use for 5 years and 5 civil servants for one year to support the project, that we could actually start creating jobs immediately and assist people who are up for this challenge???

What in all that's holy is going in this country??? How come it's all talk and absolutely no action with everything in Ireland??? And I don't just blame Cowen, where is the joined up, smart thinking here???

Having read your post again, it would be fair to point out the clever speak of Mr Cowen is technically correct, and you've taken it 'hook, line and sinker' to mean 'all' businessess when in fact he is saying, in principle, there are State support services but with qualifying/eligibilty criteria for state supports. The details are available from several websites including Ent Irel, IDA, CEBs, etc etc. You'd be better to look there for the answers than persisting with 'flogging the dead horse' complaint.

Also which empty IDA units do you refer to? Are you sure they belong to IDA? A number of years ago the IDA sold a good deal of their property portfolio and now many previously owned and run IDA Incubation units are in private ownership, eg, there are some in Tallaght, Terenure, Docklands etc etc

There is little of any relevance to bus man or enterprise in this thread.

maninasia

There are plenty of grants available in Ireland although I don't have any personal experience, members of my family have been assisted by local enterprise boards to setup websites etc. and that has definitely been helpful.
There is a serious lack of venture capital and private funding in Ireland compared to a large and entrepeneurial country such as the US but also compared to smaller countries such as Taiwan and Korea. That makes it much more difficult to get the funds to compete or to survive a total bust (if its all your money and you can't get anymore from anywhere else...it will be hard to start again).
For the last 10 years entrepeneurs in Ireland have almost all been about property, bricks and mortar, stuff that doesn't contribute anything.
That sucked all the capital out of the investment market for real businesses. Now a lot of people have huge debts and the capital pool has been destroyed and the government capital pool is also consequently lacking, now the government and banks are a millstone around entrepeneurs necks as they need to suck in more taxes to pay these bad debts. Kind of the opposite of what they are supposed to be doing. We need capital to come back in and support entrepeneurial business.

Ironically this property bust will help as Irish people refocus on businesses that can grow and earn a good return the old fashioned way and as people are 1) FORCED to setup a business as there just aren't that many jobs around and 2) Have such a bad taste from getting laid off that they decided never again or 3) Take the chance now that presents itself.

Whatever else, this recession will create a new breed of business people and a new more realistic thinking in Ireland and I for one welcome it.

@Entrepeneur.....when I was in college I didn't get a cent and I was broke as hell for years..I resented it then that others got grants etc. and got money off their folks too, it may not seemt fair but that's Ireland, it is a socialist republic and most people in Ireland are only a shade short of Communist thinking...Catholic Communists...until you ask them to pay more and more tax I guess

You are just unlucky to graduate in a recession but it certainly doesn't make your case unusual, join the other 100 million Irish people who grew up in a recession before you

ChRoMe

El Rifle: Do you live at home?