2009: Why the 'Mr', 'Miss' etc in our classes?

Dionysus

Why are kids still calling teachers 'Mr' and 'Miss'? I was asking this to someone the other day as it seems really odd that I am now being referred to as 'Mister' for the first time.

And I was told that in the local Gaelscoil here all the teachers, including the principal, are known by their first names by all the children. Apparently, in other so-called "alternative" schools this is also the policy. And this doesn't seem to have any negative affects for student results or discipline. Quite the opposite in fact. So, what gives?

First names sound much warmer and more vocational to my mind. Why are the old stuffy forms of address still being used in schools? Is it possible to work in one of those schools and have the kids addressing you by your first name? Is there any downside to it?

Darwin

While I'm not a teacher, I think the usage of titles 'Mr' and 'Ms' is entirely appropriate. I don't think you can draw any conclusions from the anecdotal evidence you have presented. For example, my niece went to one of those 'alternative' schools and her behaviour leaves a lot to be desired. The teacher is supposed to be an authoritative figure in the classroom and addressing them as Mr/Miss is a sign of respect for that authority. There is nothing stuffy about using titles - would you go to your GP and address them by their first name?

banquo

+1 on the authority. It's a lot harder to throw stuff at someone you call 'sir' than 'John'.

gaeilgegrinds

I taught in a school where we were called by our first names, it just did not work. I don't really know why but there seems to be a habit of making nicknames out of them, really annoyed me. I don't particularly like, 'Miss,' but honestly works better than the alternative.

rainbowtrout

If they can use first names the students (especially in secondary school) can become way too familiar. They will not see you as the teacher/authority figure. A bit of formality is good.

A friend of mine teaches in a gaelscoil and her students call her Muinteoir Michelle. They still use her first name, but are still addressing her as teacher.

Toto Wolfcastle

I don't particularly like being called Miss, especially when they use it in in sentences such as, 'Miss said something', as if it's my first name. Whatever happened to, 'The teacher said something'? However, it is far preferable to being called by my first name. It's far too informal and because I'm only 23 and look young I really don't need another reason for the students to think that I'm their friend.

I don't get too worked up about it though. One of the TYs called me by my first name when we went to an activity centre and while the other teacher went mad, I just shrugged it off. It's fine the odd time in informal situations.

I find that the bigger the deal you make out of it the more fascinated they become.

clartharlear

rainbowtrout wrote: »

If they can use first names the students (especially in secondary school) can become way too familiar. They will not see you as the teacher/authority figure. A bit of formality is good.

A friend of mine teaches in a gaelscoil and her students call her Muinteoir Michelle. They still use her first name, but are still addressing her as teacher.

It was the same when I was an ALT in Japan - clar sensei. But it was a definite placing of me in the hierarchy between teacher and student.

I like the use of Mr and Ms. I wouldn't be happy being called by my first name at all. As you say, a bit of formality is good. School is a particular place and should have some things to set it aside from all the other places in life - formal address is one of those things.

Bally8

I work in a school where students are encouraged to call us by our first names. I insisted on it for the first few years then realised that I was fighting a losing battle. Some of them are just so used to saying Miss that they are uncomfortable with calling me by my first name. Now dont insist on them calling me my name and let them choose. Most choose Miss and I have to admit- I like it better that way.

TheDriver

To me, Sir is simply the generic name that you address a male teacher, nothing more. Its more a norm, a set standard. Its like saying "hey you" but in a teacher sense. Kids don't think about it, we don;t think about it, its a necessary formality, same way we call our parents Dad and Mum.

Wouldn't even bother thinking about it to be honest, just one of those things. First names don't work unless they are very pleasant kids

spurious

In my first school, 20 odd years ago, we had a very active set of table tennis teams (students and teachers) and two nights a week we would stay in after school and play til closing time, about 9.30pm.

The etiquette of the evening was that first names and a general looseness as regards 'intemperate' language was allowed after hours. We never had a problem with any of the table tennis kids calling us by our first names in class. School was school and table tennis evenings were not 'school'.

It's to do with respect really.

I never call a child by his/her surname only and they usually call me Miss, or 'teacher' when they come first from primary, or 'Ma' when they forget themselves. Scarlet for them when that happens.:D

hot chick

spurious wrote: »

or 'Ma' when they forget themselves. Scarlet for them when that happens.:D

Nearly fell off my chair laughing :D

byhookorbycrook

I'm in a Gaelscoil and we are called Múinteóir whatever , I like it. Children generally say "a mhúinteoir" when speaking to us, much easier than Iníon ní whatever or Bean uí ..
I don't think being called Miss or Mr whatever will gain respect, you earn that , not automatically gain it because of a title.

ArthurDent

In Educate Together schools everyone is known by their first names - some people (staff and parents particularly) find it strange at first - but imo it doesn't lead to lack of respect. I agree with hookorbycrook - respect is something you earn,

oh well

yes you do have to earn the student's respect, but I think that having the students call you by first name is always a bad idea. Its allowing the students become too familiar and teacher isn't there to be a friend, they have a position of authority and the authority of this position should be respected. I often feel that the day we stopped calling neighbours by `Mrs This' or `Mrs That' and teachers by their first names was the start of the breakdown of respect for elders and breakdown of society. Local gaelscoil allows students call teachers by first names, I really don't think it sounds good when you hear the students call out "hey, Mary, can I ....... "

My son called his teacher Dad once - fell around laughing when he told me.

byhookorbycrook

Ohwell, our pupils would never say hey Mary, they might say hey a mhúinteóir Mary, but that's all. I taught Leaving Certs in Irish college for years and they used my first name always, no problems.

p1akuw47h5r3it

banquo wrote: »

+1 on the authority. It's a lot harder to throw stuff at someone you call 'sir' than 'John'.

No it isn't, I see it the opposite way round tbh. The teachers in my school who we know more about tend to be the ones who we respect more and we behave better in there class.

seanybiker

I use to hate having to say miss miss or sir. It was supposed to be to show respect but I rather people earn respect as opposed to demanding it. Some teachers I had I didnt mind calling them sir or miss but other teachers where just power mad and I had no respect for them at all. I wouldnt ask them for help if I needed it, mainly because of the forced respect.

p1akuw47h5r3it

seanybiker wrote: »

I use to hate having to say miss miss or sir. It was supposed to be to show respect but I rather people earn respect as opposed to demanding it. Some teachers I had I didnt mind calling them sir or miss but other teachers where just power mad and I had no respect for them at all. I wouldnt ask them for help if I needed it, mainly because of the forced respect.

I prefer sayin miss cause I've been sayin it for 13 years af school

rainbowtrout

Estrella Harsh Rosebush wrote: »

No it isn't, I see it the opposite way round tbh. The teachers in my school who we know more about tend to be the ones who we respect more and we behave better in there class.

but you shouldn't need to know about your teachers' personal lives to behave for them.

Powerhouse

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Ohwell, our pupils would never say hey Mary, they might say hey a mhúinteóir Mary, but that's all. I taught Leaving Certs in Irish college for years and they used my first name always, no problems.

I can see the arguments on both sides here to be honest. It is difficult to see what harm using first names would do but on the other hand would it achieve anything? It strikes me as one of those conventions which is there for decades and might not be used if everyone was starting from scratch right now.

I don't think Irish College is comparable. The atmosphere in the Gaeltacht is quite different to normal school, and the using of first names in just part of the more chilled atmosphere. Whether such an arm's length approach would work in normal school where you have all manner of cretins is moot.

I suspect calling teachers by their first names would make no real difference but it could be argued that it creates a necessary distance between teacher and pupil which might make some teachers more comfortable with in-your-face students.

But I also think it is important to distinguish between primary and secondary school as the challenges people at those stages present are so different.

RealJohn

Both schools I've worked in have had this sort of policy.
In my first school, it was Múinteoir Seán, in my current one it's just Seán (both Gaelcoláistí by the way). I wasn't that comfortable with it at first but I've gotten used to it.

I'm not entirely sure if I agree with it to be honest. I agree that respect is (and should be) earned but there is also an element of familiarity breeding contempt. I don't think students respect you because they have to call you sir but I think they're less likely to respect you if they don't have to.

This doesn't necessarily mean that they shouldn't be allowed to. I think it just means that we have to become better disciplinarians for the situation to work effectively.

That said, I have to agree that it's another symptom of the decline of old-fashioned respect. We all had teachers we liked and teachers we disliked. I don't think any of us disliked a teacher because we resented calling them sir or miss though. Young people have much less respect for authority these days. This is a symptom, not a cause but it bears looking at.

Dionysus

Excellent debate here. Presumably since the Gaelscoileanna and Educate Together schools (and undoubtedly others) have stepped away from the attitude of the established schools, they are basing their decision on academic or psychological studies which find that students learn better/teachers teach better in this less formal environment?

If so, does anybody know where we could read the studies in question?


Thanks.

evolving_doors

Dionysus wrote: »

Excellent debate here. Presumably since the Gaelscoileanna and Educate Together schools (and undoubtedly others) have stepped away from the attitude of the established schools, they are basing their decision on academic or psychological studies which find that students learn better/teachers teach better in this less formal environment?


Thanks.

Hmm.. I think the reason they "have stepped away from the attitude of the established schools" is that they want to be seen to be different. The use of 1st names in these schools might not have any intrinsic benefit to their education whatsoever.

With regard to "students learn better/teachers teach better in this less formal environment" i think it may in the majority be due to the teaching methods employed and the attitude of the teacher in this new environment.

Having experience of both I would definitely prefer Mr/Miss. It gives you the sense of formality and structure that surrounds the teaching process...the same way some teachers always say a prayer at the start of the class. Most have said to me that it's mightn't have any religious benefit but it helps to 'settle' the class.

I think kids at the end of the day would prefer to keep 1st names for their friends. It's kind of like one of my friends who refers to his parents in 1st name (even when addressing them).Instead of "Dad where's Mam?" it's "Tom where's Nuala?" WIERD!!No?



Maybe can we take a vote.(dunno how to set this up!)

1st name V's Mr/Miss

byhookorbycrook

Armelodie wrote: »

Hmm.. I think the reason they "have stepped away from the attitude of the established schools" is that they want to be seen to be different. The use of 1st names in these schools might not have any intrinsic benefit to their education whatsoever.

An M. Maíre is a lot easier for primary children (who call us a mhúinteóir, most of the time)than Bean uí Mhuicheartaigh or whatever to say (never mind spell:D. )

niall3r

I think it depends on two things:
The students themselves, and whether they could show respect to someone they call by their first name. Im sure some could but IMO, its easier to be over familiar with someone you can call john or mary etc.

The teachers. I imagine there will always be an awareness of distinction when addressing someone who has been teaching for twenty years as opposed to someone who is only three or four years older than you.

peanuthead

Dionysus wrote: »

First names sound much warmer and more vocational to my mind. Why are the old stuffy forms of address still being used in schools? Is it possible to work in one of those schools and have the kids addressing you by your first name? Is there any downside to it?

In that case, why have uniforms? Why get them to do homework? Why have a set time for classes to start? School is a place for students to learn to have and receive respect. Its all about setting them up for the working world.

Dumb

banquo wrote: »

+1 on the authority. It's a lot harder to throw stuff at someone you call 'sir' than 'John'.

I couldn't agree with that. I'd throw it anyway.

byhookorbycrook

peanuthead wrote: »

In that case, why have uniforms? Why get them to do homework? Why have a set time for classes to start? School is a place for students to learn to have and receive respect. Its all about setting them up for the working world.

Homework is a whole other debate ,some homework I've seen set over the years has been of dubious value.

evolving_doors

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Homework is a whole other debate ,some homework I've seen set over the years has been of dubious value.

Whats this debate about homework? Can anyone think of a teacher worth their salt that doesn't give homework.. I've seen lots of tv shows over the years of dubious quality but I'm still watching!!:eek:

Fluorescence

I've never called any of my teachers by their first names.... Sir/Miss has just always been the norm really. I don't think it makes too much of a difference either way, but for me, personally, I'd find it a bit strange to suddenly start calling my teachers "John" or whatever. It would diminish their authority in my eyes to a certain degree I suppose :eek:

StargazerLily

Saying 'Muinteoir Sean' isn't really any different to using Sir or Miss - the Muinteoir implies a title.....Just Sean on the other hand would make me feel a little too informal. Would never have thought it was a big deal to me either way but remember being on a school tour with students who kept trying to call me by my first name and it just felt wrong somehow.

I also had the student calling me 'Ma' incident - years ago I had a class of 6th year boys most of them bigger than me and on the rugby team so these guys liked to think they were hard men! As the bell went one of the tougher students kept telling me he DID have his homework , just couldn't find it in his bag etc etc. I had already threatened all sorts and was on my way out the door when he found it and came running after me shouting 'Mam!!' The poor guy....I couldn't look back but I'm sure he was scarlet too judging by the roars from the other students! There wasn't a peep out of him for weeks!:D

byhookorbycrook

re homework, some teachers seem to think the more homework they give, the better they are. Homework needs to have a purpose rather than just keeping a child busy( or driving parents nuts).

Dumb

StargazerLily wrote: »

Saying 'Muinteoir Sean' isn't really any different to using Sir or Miss - the Muinteoir implies a title.....Just Sean on the other hand would make me feel a little too informal. Would never have thought it was a big deal to me either way but remember being on a school tour with students who kept trying to call me by my first name and it just felt wrong somehow.

I also had the student calling me 'Ma' incident - years ago I had a class of 6th year boys most of them bigger than me and on the rugby team so these guys liked to think they were hard men! As the bell went one of the tougher students kept telling me he DID have his homework , just couldn't find it in his bag etc etc. I had already threatened all sorts and was on my way out the door when he found it and came running after me shouting 'Mam!!' The poor guy....I couldn't look back but I'm sure he was scarlet too judging by the roars from the other students! There wasn't a peep out of him for weeks!:D

It's OK to say it like that in Irish?

So why don't they say Teacher Paul, Teacher Mary etc. :pac:

(He said Mam not ma or mammy or mum.)