Training for size, what you think?

thehotstepper

Okay been training about a year but really going at it this month as I've started a months supply of creatine. I'm on the weight gain shakes too. Have hovered around the 10st6 mark for the year, I'm 5'8". Try to get to the gym 3 times a week. Heres the routine usually.
Row for 2 mins get the heartrate up.
Squatx2 x60kgs
Bench Pressx4 x60kgs
Upright rowsx2 x40kgs
hammer curlsx2 x25kgs
shoulder press(machine)x3 (heaviest I can do for 6-8 reps)
lateral raisesx2 x12kgs
Dumbell shrugsx2 x30kgs
Barbell curlsx2 x30kgs
Rowing Weight machinex1 (heaviest for 6-8 reps)
Trying to bring 'Lying face up Plate neck resistance' x2into it as Ive a skinny neck.
Ab work to finish.
Do around 6-8 reps for each set. I'm in the gym around an hour and a bit. Resting 2 mins between sets.

I sometimes mix it up a bit with the exercises like doing incline bench press instead or changing the bicep work around.
So? Do you think I should be splitting my routine?

cowzerp

Split it up.

itsallaboutheL

i'm high jacking this thread for a moment!!

You're doing 2 sets of 8 upright rows with 40kg which isnt in proportion to the rest of your lifts really (its over half your body weight) ...... question is

whats the story with upright rows, are some people just not built for getting strong on these or what?

i know thats an atrociously badly worded question but my brain is dead today.:p

slicus ricus

As Cowzerp said, you need to split it up - reason being, it gives your muscles time to recover and grow because you're not working the same muscle groups every day. Typical split would be:
Day 1: Chest & Biceps
Day 2: Legs
Day 3: Back & Triceps
Day 4: Shoulders & traps
There are other ways of splitting, but the above is just an example.

Also, you need to eat a lot of protein - it's recommended you eat a gram of protein for every pound of weight. Ideally, you would eat 5-7 high protein meals (min 20gs of protein per meal) at intervals of 2.5-3.5 between meals. Supplements count as a meal, although I wouldn't personally rely too much on supps.

I would recommend getting in whey protein and sugars after training - you can get recovery supplement such as RAM which have sugars in them. The creatine will help but unless you have your diet right, I would regard creatine as a waste of money.

To sum up - Do the following:
1. Split program
2. 5-7 high in protein meals a day
3. Good post workout shake (protein and sugars)

kumate_champ07

if youre training for size forget about isolation exercises and machines.
squat,deadlift,bench press,overhead press,chinups and pullups.
no need for shrugs, the deadlift will hit your traps, so will the overhead press.
overhead press and bench press will both hit your triceps
your biceps will grow quicker with chinups and pullups than it will with curls.

bigstar

slicus ricus wrote: »

Day 1: Chest & Biceps
Day 2: Legs
Day 3: Back & Triceps
Day 4: Shoulders & traps

i dont get this, why is everyone on a chest & biceps buzz these days, back & triceps seems mad to me. am i missing something

kumate_champ07

bigstar wrote: »

i dont get this, why is everyone on a chest & biceps buzz these days, back & triceps seems mad to me. am i missing something

its a push and pull 'bodybuilding' routine, its for when you get bored with what your doing and want to try a different workout routine

bigstar

still dont get it, isnt push pull a split routine as in one day push (squats,bench,press) and the other pull (rows, curls, pullups), not the same day.

slicus ricus

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

if youre training for size forget about isolation exercises and machines.

I disagree. If you want to add musclemass, which I assume is what he meant by "training for size", you need to train each muscle group to failure. The most effective way of doing so is by isolating the muscles. Obviously doing compound exercises as well (such as bench, deadlifts, shoulder press etc) are important, but in conjunction with isolation exercises. Once you exhaust and wear down the muscles, it's the job of the protein you eat to repair these muscles and cause them to grow.

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

overhead press and bench press will both hit your triceps
your biceps will grow quicker with chinups and pullups than it will with curls.

Again, I disagree. Curls, if done with strict form will wear down your muscles more effectively than chinups. With chinups, it's very difficult to use only your biceps to complete the action, whereas with curls (dumbell and barbell), it is much easier once you make sure to keep strict form. Same applies with triceps - one arm tricep extentions, skull cruses and dips are the way to go to really wear out your triceps to failure.

slicus ricus

bigstar wrote: »

i dont get this, why is everyone on a chest & biceps buzz these days, back & triceps seems mad to me. am i missing something

You could do your split a number of ways but that's just the way i do it. I find if i do chest & triceps, my triceps are a bit tired after bench pressing and dumbell pressing and therefore, i cant lift as heavy for tricep exercises. I also find the same thing with back & biceps - biceps get used indirectly for heavy machine rows.

Chest/Biceps and Back/Triceps works well for me. Just wondering why it would seem so strange to you? Am defo interested in hearing a different perspective on this.

bigstar

ive always done the same muscle groups together, chest tricesps etc, but ive seen a lot of people advising chest biceps. surely your arms will stall quickly with that, which means you wont be able to lift as heavy and wont get stronger/bigger.

on the other hand if its working for you then it works for you

kumate_champ07

slicus ricus wrote: »

I disagree. If you want to add musclemass, which I assume is what he meant by "training for size", you need to train each muscle group to failure. The most effective way of doing so is by isolating the muscles.

nah.

Smellyirishman

slicus ricus wrote: »

Chest/Biceps and Back/Triceps works well for me. Just wondering why it would seem so strange to you? Am defo interested in hearing a different perspective on this.

For the precise reason that you suggested splitting in the first place. You're now working a smaller muscle (eg;biceps) more frequently (back and chest days), not giving it rest time. Plus it would be easier to exhaust these muscles on their respective days as you've already stated (can't lift as much with your biceps on back day).

Or you could look at the way you do it from the perspective of a light load day Back/Tri (light load on Biceps) and a heavy load day Chest/Biceps (heavy load on Biceps).

However, how much of a difference this all makes, I'm not sure. If Back/Tri Chest/Bi works for you then off ya go .

kumate_champ07

slicus ricus wrote: »

You could do your split a number of ways but that's just the way i do it. I find if i do chest & triceps, my triceps are a bit tired after bench pressing and dumbell pressing and therefore, i cant lift as heavy for tricep exercises. I also find the same thing with back & biceps - biceps get used indirectly for heavy machine rows.

thats a good thing.

why machine rows, whats wrong with bent over rows?

bigstar

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

thats a good thing.

why machine rows, whats wrong with bent over rows?

he just prefers isolation stuff id say.

to get back on topic, id say that routine is a bit crap tbh. your doing 3 shoulder exercises (upright rows, press, lat raises) your doing two curl exercises and rows, then shrugs benches and squats. its a bit backwards tbh, hit your bigger muscles harder. so heavy squats, deadlifts, press etc.

im in the same boat as yourself 10st 11lbs 5'9 trying to gain weight. ive put on a stone in the last 8 weeks and all im dong is Starting Strength. squats, deadlifts, bench, OH press and cleans for 3x5 easy peasy uncomplicated and im not eating super mass gainer XYZ or creatine just lots of good food and lots and lots of milk.

itsallaboutheL

Look i'm just gonna play devils advocate here..

Not everyone wants to be a power lifter!! I'm not saying for one minute that you don't need the big three, but they are not the be all and end all. Different courses for differents horses as well as horses for courses!! Somehow this forum has gone from the fitness forum to the squat bench deadlift forum!!

I'm not saying not to concentrate on them i'm just saying they're tools in your armoury (granted very imnportant ones) just like every other exercise.

And you'll go nowhere slowly without a solid big three BUT you cant just dismiss isolation/ less compound movements off hand...........



On Topic

OP does need a major shake up in routine, looks very like a Gym Instructor made beginners program. A bad one at that

kumate_champ07

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Look i'm just gonna play devils advocate here..

Not everyone wants to be a power lifter!! I'm not saying for one minute that you don't need the big three, but they are not the be all and end all. Different courses for differents horses as well as horses for courses!! Somehow this forum has gone from the fitness forum to the squat bench deadlift forum!!

I'm not saying not to concentrate on them i'm just saying they're tools in your armoury (granted very imnportant ones) just like every other exercise.

And you'll go nowhere slowly without a solid big three BUT you cant just dismiss isolation/ less compound movements off hand...........

if its for size i cant see why you wouldnt want to do the big three.

itsallaboutheL

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

if its for size i cant see why you wouldnt want to do the big three.

I just spent the entire flaming post saying do them but not just them alone....

if he wants pure size he's going to need to isolate muscles too! he doesn't necessarily have to be lifting massive weight in the big three, but he does need to be doing them of course....

kumate_champ07

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

I just spent the entire flaming post saying do them but not just them alone....

if he wants pure size he's going to need to isolate muscles too! he doesn't necessarily have to be lifting massive weight in the big three, but he does need to be doing them of course....

sorry im not reading stuff properly tonite, theres a strongman on britains got talent right now

thehotstepper

thanks a mill for the replies. A split routine? Okay I'll look into it. I drink the shakes cos I'm a hardgainer with no appetite and lots of milk would drive my sinus problem crazy. And I don't do bentover rows cos they hurt my lower back, no matter how perfect my form is.
Ive another feckin prob now aswell my forearms are killing me when I do a bicep exercise, not when I do the movement but when I am letting go of the weight, along the bone. So thats the bicep stuff off for a week or two.
Surely with the split your only in the gym for a half hour at a time?

itsallaboutheL

thehotstepper wrote: »

thanks a mill for the replies. A split routine? Okay I'll look into it. I drink the shakes cos I'm a hardgainer with no appetite and lots of milk would drive my sinus problem crazy. And I don't do bentover rows cos they hurt my lower back, no matter how perfect my form is.
Ive another feckin prob now aswell my forearms are killing me when I do a bicep exercise, not when I do the movement but when I am letting go of the weight, along the bone. So thats the bicep stuff off for a week or two.
Surely with the split your only in the gym for a half hour at a time?

EDIT: Post was a bit harsh!

cowzerp

thehotstepper wrote: »

Ive another feckin prob now aswell my forearms are killing me when I do a bicep exercise, not when I do the movement but when I am letting go of the weight, along the bone. So thats the bicep stuff off for a week or two.
Surely with the split your only in the gym for a half hour at a time?

Lots of people get pain in the forearm when curling with barbells, just use dumbells and the forearms are usually ok.

thehotstepper

thanks for the tip cowzerp I'll try that. Okay so was doing some research on the split, what would you think of this routine instead then, roughly spending 40 mins in the gym.

Day 1
Warm up
Bench pressx5
Chin upsx4
Hammer Curlsx4
Dips(Is there an alt. to this as I can do about 20 reps.)x3
Lat pulldownx3

Day 2
Warm up
Shoulder Pressx5
Upright rowx3
Rowing Weight Machinex3
Lat Raisesx3
Dumbell Shrugsx3
Power clean with low weight for overall fitness?x3

I'm thinking up the number of sets to get a good rip then give the area 2 days off to recover so it'd be like mon, tue, wed off, thurs, fri, sat/sun off. Or mon, tue, wed, thurs, fri/sat/sun off. Doesnt this mean I'm doing only 2 days weights a week then?
On a side note I'm not looking to build muscle on the lower body so I dont want to do deadlift or squat. Is this a problem?

itsallaboutheL

thehotstepper wrote: »

t

Dips(Is there an alt. to this as I can do about 20 reps.)x3

Do me a favour?.... find the type of dips you are doing on youtube then post the link....

thehotstepper

Hint of sarcasm there i think...:pac:

kumate_champ07

thehotstepper wrote: »

Hint of sarcasm there i think...:pac:

you mean bench dips for triceps? a full dip is where you hold onto 2 high parallel bars and dip your body down. you can cross your legs and hold them back and tilt your body forward if you want more emphasis on the chest.

itsallaboutheL

no genuine.... ish:D im curious, its more scepticism than sarcasm..

thehotstepper

Oh my bad...don't ever do tricep dips cos u can do so many of them I thought they'd be no good for muscle building. For the bench dips Ive seen fellas put plates on their laps, so was gonna give that a go maybe

cardio,shoot me

+1 on dumbell curls, sorted my forearms out straight away.
btw are u doing these dips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO5Vz_OZd9M

Hanley

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

if youre training for size forget about isolation exercises and machines.
squat,deadlift,bench press,overhead press,chinups and pullups.
no need for shrugs, the deadlift will hit your traps, so will the overhead press.
overhead press and bench press will both hit your triceps
your biceps will grow quicker with chinups and pullups than it will with curls.

WTF....??

Seriously, WTF??

Hanley

thehotstepper wrote: »

I drink the shakes cos I'm a hardgainer with no appetite and lots of milk would drive my sinus problem crazy.

FFS you're not a hardgainer. What is it with people and the use of that term???


You're a "hardgainer" because, by your own admission, you're not eating enough.

itsallaboutheL

Finally i was considering going to look for you on t-nation, to come sort this out!

and OP once again are you doing actual full ROM dips??

thehotstepper

Dunno what a rom dip is:o...Just gonna try the bench dip with a plate on the lap. Okay so for the new routine everything good?

Maybe I'm not a hardgainer then..?

Hanley

thehotstepper wrote: »

Dunno what a rom dip is:o...Just gonna try the bench dip with a plate on the lap. Okay so for the new routine everything good?

Maybe I'm not a hardgainer then..?

Dips - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfQQOj71oxc

How many thousand calories are you eating per day? (or what's a typical days diet look like)

itsallaboutheL

thehotstepper wrote: »

Dunno what a rom dip is:o...Just gonna try the bench dip with a plate on the lap. Okay so for the new routine everything good?

Maybe I'm not a hardgainer then..?

Have a look at hanleys link and do those

thehotstepper

Ah. I'll have to get a belt like that. How is it you never see anyone in the gym with them?
Heres roughly the diet.
Breakfast
cereal, 2xtoast with peanut butter, shake.

lunch
spag bol/sandwich/hotdogs/pasta whatevers there
shake.

dinner
pasta chicken/steak chips/pizza

2/3 hrs before bed
toast with pnut butter and shake

I figure since Im taking the shakes(theyre 540/940 cals with milk) and the multivits I dont need an elaborate diet. Am I wrong?

cardio,shoot me

the simple rule is, if u aint gaining weight, eat more, and have u ever tried those dips before? they are alot harder than they look

slicus ricus

thehotstepper wrote: »

Ah. I'll have to get a belt like that. How is it you never see anyone in the gym with them?

I see people in the gym with them. I don't use one myself because I generally do dips at the end of my triceps workout when my triceps are already pretty nakered. At that stage, doing 8-12 at bodyweight is a struggle in itself!

thehotstepper wrote: »

Heres roughly the diet.
Breakfast
cereal, 2xtoast with peanut butter, shake.

lunch
spag bol/sandwich/hotdogs/pasta whatevers there
shake.

dinner
pasta chicken/steak chips/pizza

2/3 hrs before bed
toast with pnut butter and shake

I figure since Im taking the shakes(theyre 540/940 cals with milk) and the multivits I dont need an elaborate diet. Am I wrong?

That's only 4 meals by my count. Get that up to 6-7 meals if you want to build muscle. Best thing is to go down to your local butcher and pick up 20 chicken fillets for the week. Cook some the night before and bring as many as you're going to eat with you to work/college/where ever you go during the day. You can put them in tupperware with sauce or on a wrap or sambo. I cannot stress this point enough: you need to get protein in every 2.5-3.5 hours if you want to see results.

thehotstepper wrote: »

On a side note I'm not looking to build muscle on the lower body so I dont want to do deadlift or squat. Is this a problem?

Yes, yes this is a problem! Firstly, because if you do suceed in putting on muscle on your upper body, you will look like a freak with a big upper body and chicken legs! Secondly, these exercises are very good for your core strength, which is an essential part of weight training.

Compak

No deadlift or squat you will never properly grow.

They are called the basics/core for a reason.

Simply their effecton CNS and endocrine response of testsosterone GH and cortisol is fantastic and dont expect any proper gains without them.

Also the Johnny Bravos never get any real respect in gym. Dont deadlift or squat without medical reason dont call yourself a lifter

thehotstepper

Thats interesting about the cortisol spikes and stuff from those exercises. Did the deadlift today with 60 kg's its a fecker on the lower back. Usually use the squat for toning ie low weight 12-14 reps. I agree overall body fitness with the weights is important so that would be a reason too to do them. Will try squeeze in more snacks and small meals aswell. So can I take it the new routines better if I add in squat on day one and deadlift on day 2?

kumate_champ07

thehotstepper wrote: »

Thats interesting about the cortisol spikes and stuff from those exercises. Did the deadlift today with 60 kg's its a fecker on the lower back. Usually use the squat for toning ie low weight 12-14 reps

60kg shouldnt be giving u lower back pain if you are doing them correctly.

at the bottom keep your chest up and back straight, bring your hips towards the bar as you rise, keep the bar close to your legs as you bring it up.

toning a muscle doesnt make sense. when people say toning what they dont realise they are referring to is losing body fat which makes the muscle more visible as it has less fat covering it. u can 'tone' with heavy weight.

the fitness industry uses the word because its in peoples vocabulary but they dont fully understand how it works/what it actually means biologically

MagicMarker

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

toning a muscle doesnt make sense. when people say toning what they dont realise they are referring to is losing body fat which makes the muscle more visible as it has less fat covering it.

Erm, while losing fat will increase visibility of a muscle, that's not the same as increasing tone, which is an increase in firmness of the muscle.

For instance, my legs have improved in tone dramatically over the last few weeks, while I have lost fat, I've lost no where near enough to have such an impact on my legs, what's increased the tone is working on the legs themselves.

kumate_champ07

MagicMarker wrote: »

Erm, while losing fat will increase visibility of a muscle, that's not the same as increasing tone, which is an increase in firmness of the muscle.

For instance, my legs have improved in tone dramatically over the last few weeks, while I have lost fat, I've lost no where near enough to have such an impact on my legs, what's increased the tone is working on the legs themselves.

you have increasesd muscle mass in your legs, the toning you described doesnt exist. firmness of muscle? water retention would give you 'soft' muscle.

kevpants

People are going to be linking to this thread from all over the internet.






Sh1t. Now my name's in here.

rugalo

the problem i have with the deadlift, well its not really a prob cos i can do with no big issues like back pain, but the thing is, do i do it on a back day,leg day or other. my day splits are monday:chest/abs, wednesday:back/legs, friday:arm/shoulders

Brian?

rugalo wrote: »

the problem i have with the deadlift, well its not really a prob cos i can do with no big issues like back pain, but the thing is, do i do it on a back day,leg day or other. my day splits are monday:chest/abs, wednesday:back/legs, friday:arm/shoulders

Instead of that split, why not do a deadlift day, squat day and bench day. Make the big 3 the core of your program.

slicus ricus

briankeating wrote: »

Instead of that split, why not do a deadlift day, squat day and bench day. Make the big 3 the core of your program.

That's great if your training to be a powerlifter: you will make great gains on these 3 particular exercises. Will you gain muscle mass training like this? Absolutely.

However, if your training is more bodybuilding oriented (which is what I would take from the OPs question of "training for size"), you will need to focus your training on various body parts rather than on specific lifts. If you want areas such as biceps, triceps, and delts to grow, you really need to exhaust these muscles once a week and then allow them to recover.

Rugalo, in my opinion, you would be far better doing deadlifts on leg day. If you keep the form strict, you should be working legs (primarily quads and also glutes, hamstrings and calves) and strengthening back. It works the above leg muscles as well as strengthening core.

Compak wrote:

No deadlift or squat you will never properly grow.

They are called the basics/core for a reason.

Simply their effecton CNS and endocrine response of testsosterone GH and cortisol is fantastic and dont expect any proper gains without them.

I agree with you to a certain extent. Yes, they are very important for the reasons you have mentioned. However, I do think that if you only squat for example and did not deadlift, you still would grow.

Compak wrote:

Also the Johnny Bravos never get any real respect in gym. Dont deadlift or squat without medical reason dont call yourself a lifter

Who goes to the gym to get respect from other lifters? I go to the gym to achieve the physical goals i have set for myself.

Compak wrote:

Dont deadlift or squat without medical reason dont call yourself a lifter

So you're saying, for example, that Kai Greene can't call himself a lifter? From what i know, yes he does squats but does not do traditional deadlifts and instead does Jefferson deadlifts (primarily to isolate his glutes) which are very much different to traditional deadlifts. Granted, he's a bodybuilder first and foremost but i wouldn't say that you couldn't call him a lifter because he doesn't do deadlifts!

dave80

slicus ricus wrote: »

I really don't understand why people consider deadlift a great lower back exercise?

your joking arent you?

slicus ricus

dave80 wrote: »

your joking arent you?

No, I've actually heard people say it is! As has my physio mate, which probably says it all!

dave80

slicus ricus wrote: »

No, I've actually heard people say it is! As has my physio mate, which probably says it all!

come on man, deadlifts work the hams, lower back, traps and forearms and just about everything else too, your physio mate doesnt know this? whats his name so i can steer clear of him

rugalo

i got that split from a programe called ultimate anabolics the only change i made was swapped the monday shoulders/arm with fridays chest and abs, cos it didnt make sense to leave a major muscle group till the end of the week, so what split is the most common and most benifitial in your guys opinion.