atheists and intelligence

Mickeroo

Okay, I was talking to an atheist friend of mine recently, and i he came out with something i thought interesting. He admitted it's pretty arrogant,but said he couldn't help but feel that if someone is religious then he must automatically be smarter then them. I was wondering would there be many who would hold this opinion. I'm thinking no,but who knows?

Edit: please don't take this too seriously

Schuhart

Mickeroo wrote: »

I was wondering would there be many who would hold this opinion. I'm thinking no,but who knows?

Well, as with other things, its really nothing to do with our opinions. We just look at the evidence.

2Scoops

Schuhart wrote: »

Well, as with other things, its really nothing to do with our opinions. We just look at the evidence.

Ouch! But that assumes that people who get a basic college degree are 'smarter' than the general population... and they're not. More educated maybe, but not smarter. :pac:

DapperGent

The question is framed very poorly.

Goduznt Xzst

Yes the question is indeed phrased incorrectly. Do I think I have a higher IQ than the average religious person. Yes. But the word "smarter" is very vague. I would not have the same life experiences as a lot of religious people, nor the wisdom they have gained from them. There is also emotional intelligence (or EQ), the ability to empathise etc, which I'd say a lot of religious people would have a higher level than myself.

and funnily enough this is usually where the line in the sand is drawn, the religious claim their morals and happiness and try to grab at also having intelligence, whereas we claim our intelligence and try to grab back their claim on happiness and morality. I've always mused that the Atheist mantra should be:

"we'll try being nicer as soon as you try being smarter"

Otaku Girl

I think alot of it's due to education and the breaks in life more than intelligence. I think.in a slight way, this is like asking are whites and orientals smarter than blacks and hispanics.The IQ scores and SAT results may indicate yes but it's really down to economic disadvantages and a lack of education.

Certainly it seems most atheists are more intelligent than Christians,but inherenently more intelligent? Probably not.If your're strongly indoctrinated and need religion as a defence mechanism from an ultra crap life than most people will create some form of strong compartmentalised defences.So I'm going to vote no.

Rev Hellfire

Schuhart wrote: »

Well, as with other things, its really nothing to do with our opinions. We just look at the evidence.

I'd be wary of statistics like those, for example I've seen statistics which show that 75% of doctors believe in religion. Now unless we're to state that scientists are more intelligent that doctors I'm not sure where that puts us.

I think Otaku Girl hit the nail on the head, we're all leading pretty fortunate lives here and have the luxury of not needing religion. Needing a metaphysical crutch to help you through a harsh existence doesn't make you less intelligent that the next person. Its makes you simply less fortunate.

PDN

Otaku Girl wrote: »

I think alot of it's due to education and the breaks in life more than intelligence. I think.in a slight way, this is like asking are whites and orientals smarter than blacks and hispanics.The IQ scores and SAT results may indicate yes but it's really down to economic disadvantages and a lack of education.

Certainly it seems most atheists are more intelligent than Christians,but inherenently more intelligent? Probably not.If your're strongly indoctrinated and need religion as a defence mechanism from an ultra crap life than most people will create some form of strong compartmentalised defences.So I'm going to vote no.

I would agree that we are talking about education rather than intelligence.

For example, in the US atheists are overwhelmingly white and middle class - the same demographic which has most access to higher education.

Goduznt Xzst wrote:

Do I think I have a higher IQ than the average religious person. Yes.

If you are in Mensa you probably do have a higher IQ than the average religious person. You also will have a higher IQ than the average non-religious person.

Beruthiel

PDN wrote: »

I would agree that we are talking about education rather than intelligence.

Access to education and books make it very difficult to read/learn about other ways of thinking.
Lack of education certainly curtails your ability for critical thinking.

Dades

IMO, debating whether atheists are on average more intelligent than believers serves no purpose other than to antagonise believers, and encourage accusations of arrogance.

Goduznt Xzst

I think its worth discussing, but also that apples do not a pie make. In that whether we are intelligent or not is irrelevant. Humans are not defined by there IQ alone.

When I was younger and first interested in IQ and how it can be accurately gaged without being biased toward those with a higher education (it is btw) I used to ask my friends a variety of questions to see how highly they rated it.

One question I asked "would you rather be stranded with an intelligent mean person or dumb kind person". Most chose the latter, and, I guess it makes sense. In fact studies have shown that people with a high IQ will usually end up working underneath a person with a high EQ (who may or may not also have a high IQ also). When we think of qualities we want in a boss we aren't looking for clinical intelligence, rather we want someone who is positive, congenial and patient.

So, yes, maybe Atheists, on average, do have a higher IQ and maybe the religious are, on average, happier. All that really matters is what we accomplish with our life and what we achieve in the end of it all. If you let statistics and numbers define you then you have to ask yourself why you do not feel confident enough to create your own definition.

HalloweenJack

I'd say Atheists are more informed than religious people, also more open-minded. That's what I get from people I've met on both sides of the fence.

Both sides can be very arrogant and aggressive in expressing their views.

angelfalling

Er, well being college educated does make it more likely for one to be atheist/agnostic. So while having gone to college doesn't necessarily make someone smarter than having not gone to college... it does stand to reason that the more intelligent you are the less likely you are to have religion.

Biro

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Yes the question is indeed phrased incorrectly. Do I think I have a higher IQ than the average religious person. Yes. But the word "smarter" is very vague. I would not have the same life experiences as a lot of religious people, nor the wisdom they have gained from them. There is also emotional intelligence (or EQ), the ability to empathise etc, which I'd say a lot of religious people would have a higher level than myself.

and funnily enough this is usually where the line in the sand is drawn, the religious claim their morals and happiness and try to grab at also having intelligence, whereas we claim our intelligence and try to grab back their claim on happiness and morality. I've always mused that the Atheist mantra should be:

"we'll try being nicer as soon as you try being smarter"

I don't normally post here, largely because I know there's no point, but this thread caught my eye, and this post sums up what I expected to see in this thread from at least one person, and judging by 10 votes so far there'll be more. All this thread can prove is that 15 people are more intelligent than 10 people as of 11:30 on the 6th of April, and that Dades is more intelligent than Goduznt Xzst.

Hivemind187

Considering that the state of "belief in god" appears to be to do with the way the brain is wired up the question really becomes:

Is it more prevalent in those with a higher capacity for critical thinking and comprehension to exhibit the brain arrangement for disbelief than belief.

Goduznt Xzst

Biro wrote: »

and that Dades is more intelligent than Goduznt Xzst.

whether or not that is true or not you should really read the whole thread before making such an impetuous comment :rolleyes:

Biro

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

whether or not that is true or not you should really read the whole thread before making such an impetuous comment :rolleyes:

I did, and you might want to read my post again. Based on your first post and Dades first post in this thread, that's the conclusion I came to, and it's about as useful (or useless) as this whole thread.

Dades

I don't know... Biro makes a good case....

But clearly the opinion offered was deliberately based on shaky ground to highlight a point.

Biro

Dades wrote: »

I don't know... Biro makes a good case....

But clearly the opinion offered was deliberately based on shaky ground to highlight a point.

QED!

sink

There is a much higher percentage of believers from those with doctorates in mathematics in contrast to those with doctorates in biology. So you must also ask are biologists in general smarter than mathematicians? There is some very spurious logic at use on this thread.

Goduznt Xzst

Biro wrote: »

Based on your first post and Dades first post in this thread, that's the conclusion I came to, and it's about as useful (or useless) as this whole thread.

Dades wrote: »

But clearly the opinion offered was deliberately based on shaky ground to highlight a point.

Ah, okay I see now. Biro made a purposely tongue-in-cheek comment to highlight the absurdity of this thread. Sorry, I was trying to take his previous post seriously.

I agree, as per my second post, that a persons IQ is not wholly important in what makes a person, but, as per the "religious are happier" thread, a topic should not be discounted for discussion. In fact I would say there is some correlation between this subject and the other study into why religious people are happier, as there have been studies also that have shown that people with higher IQ's tend to be less happy than people with lower IQ's

"Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know." - Ernest Hemingway

sink wrote: »

There is some very spurious logic at use on this thread.

I completely agree. I remember seeing a study before that aimed to show that wine made people more intelligent, because, on average, people with higher IQ's drank more wine. Of course, it failed because the inverse could also of been true. That people who where already intelligent chose to drink wine as, in most western societies, it is thought to be a more sophisticated beverage.

Zombrex

Dades wrote: »

IMO, debating whether atheists are on average more intelligent than believers serves no purpose other than to antagonise believers, and encourage accusations of arrogance.

wait, isn't that supposed to be the purpose? :pac:

Fanny Cradock

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I think its worth discussing, but also that apples do not a pie make. In that whether we are intelligent or not is irrelevant. Humans are not defined by there IQ alone.

When I was younger and first interested in IQ and how it can be accurately gaged without being biased toward those with a higher education (it is btw) I used to ask my friends a variety of questions to see how highly they rated it.

One question I asked "would you rather be stranded with an intelligent mean person or dumb kind person". Most chose the latter, and, I guess it makes sense. In fact studies have shown that people with a high IQ will usually end up working underneath a person with a high EQ (who may or may not also have a high IQ also). When we think of qualities we want in a boss we aren't looking for clinical intelligence, rather we want someone who is positive, congenial and patient.

So, yes, maybe Atheists, on average, do have a higher IQ and maybe the religious are, on average, happier. All that really matters is what we accomplish with our life and what we achieve in the end of it all. If you let statistics and numbers define you then you have to ask yourself why you do not feel confident enough to create your own definition.

Glory be! It may be the first time I've found myself in overall agreement with you. We should reflect on this moment.

Valmont

Schuhart wrote: »

Well, as with other things, its really nothing to do with our opinions. We just look at the evidence.

Before everyone starts cheering, remember that correlational evidence does not in any way way imply causation. A lot of those studies are very old in terms of Intelligence testing as it stands today and I wouldn't place great emphasis on them.

Valmont

Dades wrote: »

IMO, debating whether atheists are on average more intelligent than believers serves no purpose other than to antagonise believers, and encourage accusations of arrogance.

Thank you. I only have one serious gripe with modern atheism and it's the "we are smarter than theists" argument. Having studied psychology for four years and covered a course in psychometrics, it just isn't an inference you can make. There are just too many variables that come into play, some of which have already been mentioned.

Valmont

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

In fact studies have shown that people with a high IQ will usually end up working underneath a person with a high EQ (who may or may not also have a high IQ also)

I bet that you won't be able to provide a proper reference for this. If you do, I'm sure that you've misinterpreted it.

ScumLord

I don't think being able to recite a load of information you've learned makes you particularly intelligent. A Religious person may be able to take apart and reconstruct a car engine or build a table using carpentry skills. It's quite easy for a person to focus on becoming an expert in one particular field while ignoring all others, that doesn't make them stupid.

I don't think we educate people properly at all. In this day and age there's little point in filling people up with information all we need to do is teach them how to access and assess information.

Goduznt Xzst

Valmont wrote: »

If you do, I'm sure that you've misinterpreted it.

Well I do have the studies, which I'll link once you can explain why you are sure I've misinterpreted them.

I find it ironic that you'd thank Dades for a post about dissuading discussions that could lead to accusations of arrogance, to making a blatantly arrogant statement that you are sure I've misinterpreted a study you know nothing about.

Dades

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I find it ironic that you'd thank Dades for a post about dissuading discussions...

Just FYI - I only posted my own opinion about said discussions.
There was no charter breach and the discussion was relevant to the forum (although not new).

stevejazzx

My heart says no, my head says yes:pac:

Valmont

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

In fact studies have shown that people with a high IQ will usually end up working underneath a person with a high EQ

Apologies if I came across as annoyingly arrogant but EI is a topic I have studied at depth.

I'll try to keep this short. EQ is nowhere near as valid a psychometric construct as IQ and there is still no established concrete conceptual definition of EQ. Until EQ can approximate the reliabilities and validities of IQ and demonstrate good results in other assessments of its psychometric rigour, it cannot be termed a legitimate form of intelligence and this makes comparisons of the nature you mention untenable. Goleman (2005) wrote a famous book on EQ and based on this, plenty of studies around the relationship of EQ to occupational success have been written and the layman is well aware of many of these studies as Time magazine ran a number of articles on it over the years. A well known quote from one of these articles was "IQ gets you hired, but EQ gets you promoted"

The important fact is the research into EQ's supposed positive effects on occupational success is anecdotal, usually collected by consultancies and published in non-peer reviewed journals and as such, does not stand up to scientific scrutiny. So there you have it, saying people with IQ will usually be under people with high EQ, doesn't mean squat and these the studies proposing these effects have not stood up to the scrutiny of the many many articles critiquing them over the years (in peer reviewed journals).

if you want to give me the link to those articles now, I'll gladly explain them and I can provide an exhaustive list of references to you via PM if you need more persuasion.