Information on soldiers in WW1

scarlett998

snip

Sheimimac

Hello,

I saw your previous Posts with information on fallen soilders of WW1. My great uncle was Pte. Owen O' Donnell, 48326, 12th Battalion., Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment).

Would you have any information on him and his service ?

Thank you,

Seamus Mc Bride

arnhem44

Hi Seamus,you probably have this already but here is his CWGC record giving his date of death as the 31st of July 1917

http://www.cwgc.org/search/certificate.aspx?casualty=919340

Curiousgal

johnny_doyle wrote: »

happy to help.

Presumably your grandfather was Rupert Henry Giltrap? There's a 12th August 1922 marriage announcement for him in the Irish Times to Sydney Alexandra Carey, daughter of the late William Henry Cary of Westernra, Kildare and Mrs Carey of 365 North Circular Road. Marriage date 19th July 1922.

Any chance you could scan in the photo of James so we can see what he looks like (and maybe identify the location - longshot)?

Hi Johnny,

I'm back again re. James A. Giltrap! My cousin has finally sent me the original photo that helped me spot Jim and a few others in the Red Cross Ambulance Train photo. Jim is on the far right in uniform. The unusual statue is just behind the men - looks like authors or poets maybe? Their heads are not clear but maybe, just maybe somebody knows where it was/is? I think he sent this photo from France but I've since discovered he served in Belgium also.

Anywa, it's an interesting photo all the same - tea break in all the madness of the war,

Best,
Curiousgal

arnhem44

It's great that you have the photo.It's possible that this was taken(but not necessarily so)at the start of his service in France.It became common practice for a lot of men to take out the stiffener in the service cap which ran around the inside top edge of the cap,looking at these lads the caps are all still as they were issued.Also looking back on some earlier posts I noticed that James Giltrap also served with the 4th Royal Garrison Regiment,separate records for this service period are available from the National Archives in the UK but requires a researcher to access them,the records are similar to those of WW1.Here's a small bit from Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Garrison_Regiment

EarlERizer

I've only just come across this thread, great reading and great records,to those who take the time to compile them, well done!

I have a relative, my great grandfathers brother Michael Foley of Dublin who died 13th (or 17th) June 1915 and is commemorated with a headstone in Rouen , I know he gets a mention in a book "A hero if I fall a traitor if i come back" other than that I have no other info on him but would love to know more.From the 2 pictures of the 'graveyard' all i can make out is a memorial wall with a large plaque that reads "Their Name Liveth for Evermore" and on his headstone all i can make out is " T+/(6 digit number? possibly 083359) Driver , M.Foley , Royal A_ _ _ Service (Corps)?, 13th(17th) June 1915 ...... the picture was taken at a bad position to the sunlight.

Anything anyone can add? Thanks guys

arnhem44

I think this is your man.Is this your relative?,this is the only M. Foley that matches the date however he was KIA in 1918 http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=517562

EarlERizer

arnhem44 wrote: »

I think this is your man.Is this your relative?,this is the only M. Foley that matches the date however he was KIA in 1918 http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=517562

WOW,Thanks so much for that Arnhem44, that's him, my mum's family still live at that address,thats fantastic,I didn't expect to hear anything on this so quickly! Really appreciate you taking the time to dig that out.I'm really chuffed to see this.

Just looking at the picture of the headstone again, and I can read it as 1918 now but it's easily mistaken for 1915 with the shadows across the engravings.

Thanks again.

EarlERizer

I'm led to believe that he was something of a blacksheep as it was never something anyone spoke of, what they did speak of was when the B&T's destroyed the homes of my great grandmothers family down in Kilkenny.I can see how this could have soared their opinions of those who went away to fight for King & Country.

I'm just grateful that he is remembered in an honourable way for his efforts and his role in the war.It's a nice little story to tell my children when they're learning history of the wars.

arnhem44

Hi EarlERizer,glad to help.That information is just your basics freely available on the net.It is possible that there is a service record for Michael Foley but only around 30% of these survive as most were destroyed in the blitz on London during WW2.I'm sure someone here will have a look on Ancestry for him.Do you know if your family still have his medals or his Death Plaque,these would of been issued to his next of kin after the war.Another record called the Medal Index Card will show what medals he was entitled to.

EarlERizer

arnhem44 wrote: »

Hi EarlERizer,glad to help.That information is just your basics freely available on the net.It is possible that there is a service record for Michael Foley but only around 30% of these survive as most were destroyed in the blitz on London during WW2.I'm sure someone here will have a look on Ancestry for him.Do you know if your family still have his medals or his Death Plaque,these would of been issued to his next of kin after the war.Another record called the Medal Index Card will show what medals he was entitled to.

I know very little of his service record Arnhem, i'm very curious to find out more, I must ask my mum & aunt's if they know of any existing medals , plaques they may have tucked away somewhere.If I come up trumps with anything I'll be sure to let you & the thread know what I find.

Thanks again for your info and tips.

EarlERizer

Just found this little snippet of info re: battle honors of the 7th dragoon's during the 1914-1918 campaign

BATTLE HONORS (shown on standard)
1914 - 1918 La Bassee Givenchy, Somme, Bazentin, Cambrai, St. Quentin, Avre, Amiens, Hindenburg Line, Pursuit to Mons.

So i'd hazard a guess he died in action during the pusuit to mons.

arnhem44

Here is Michael's Medal Index Card showing that he entered theater 1 which was France & Flanders on the 4/9/1915 and was awarded the 1914/15 Star,War and Victory medals and confirming he was killed on 13th of June 1918.No sign of a record at the moment but if I find one I will post it up.Also a link to the Long Long Trail website for the Army Service Corps http://www.1914-1918.net/asc.htm

arnhem44

There is a record for a John Foley who was married to Elizabeth and had four children James,John,Anna and Michael from no.2 Willbrook Rathfarnham who survived the war and lived at no.4 Donnelly's Cottages Terenure after the war,any relation to Michael?

EarlERizer

arnhem44 wrote: »

There is a record for a John Foley who was married to Elizabeth and had four children James,John,Anna and Michael from no.2 Willbrook Rathfarnham who survived the war and lived at no.4 Donnelly's Cottages Terenure after the war,any relation to Michael?

This is unbelievable,I'll get concrete confirmation soon on this (my mum is going to talk to her sisters)but this is pointing towards a bigger link for my family.

My mum tells me we still have relations in Willbrook (and further up the road in Terenure - the Foley clan centred around Rathfarnham / Terenure) and they have been there almost as long as Michael was at St Patricks cottages.

It's looking like the above mentioned are my Grandads family ,mums aunt and uncles, she recalls her Aunt Annie, Uncle John & Uncle Mick, her father (my gramps) was James Foley,however it's possible the son John mentioned above is her grandfather,the same names seem to have passed down the generations, her brother (lord rest him) was Michael Foley & her other brother is James Foley....and my mums name...Ann Foley.

I'm begining to confuse myself lol,my mum is contacting my Aunt to clarify for me so i'll keep you posted.

Thanks again, you have really given me a great buzz with this info.

Incidentally,the book i mentioned in an earlier post "A Coward if I return, a Hero if I fall" by Neil Richardson http://www.obrien.ie/book889.cfm ,turns out Neil is the son of a friend of my mums family, he passed on a signed copy of the book which carries a picture of one of Michaels medals, again I'm hoping my Aunt (it was her who first went in search of Michaels resting place) still has this medal and if i can track it down I'll post up a photo.

Anyway, Neil will be working on a follow up book relating to Irish service men who fought and died/survived in WWII , I'm wondering if I should mention to the family & point him in your direction with his research? You are a well of information and I'm sure you could be of benefit to his research.

Curiousgal

arnhem44 wrote: »

It's great that you have the photo.It's possible that this was taken(but not necessarily so)at the start of his service in France.It became common practice for a lot of men to take out the stiffener in the service cap which ran around the inside top edge of the cap,looking at these lads the caps are all still as they were issued.Also looking back on some earlier posts I noticed that James Giltrap also served with the 4th Royal Garrison Regiment,separate records for this service period are available from the National Archives in the UK but requires a researcher to access them,the records are similar to those of WW1.Here's a small bit from Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Garrison_Regiment

Hi Arnhem,

you're right - the photo was taken early on in Jim's service because it was sent in the summer of 1916 and he joined in June. Just out of interest, why did the men take the stiffener out of their service caps?!

Thanks for the link to the Royal Garrison Regiments. That totally fits with family stories about Jim serving in South Africa. And you're right the records require a researcher to access them. A few months back I engaged a guy listed on the UK National Archives website who did the research for me. His name is Stephen Wright (www.londonresearchservice.com) and he was fantastic - I would recommend him to anyone interested in finding out more about their relatives. Within a week of sending him an email I had copies of the records in the post - and all for the equivalent of €40 - much cheaper than going there myself and wondering where to start! Sadly Jim Giltrap's WWI record was destroyed in the Blitz and apparently the British Government destroyed the Royal Garrison Regiment records. However, I did discover that Jim was in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers from 1891 until 1895 in India, when he was discharged back home due to persistent ill-health. This might explain why he was only able to sign up as a reserve subsequently.

I see you've been unearthing EarleeRiser's ancestor's fate - funnily enough the photo I put up also includes my other great granduncle Freddy Jackson (oblong-faced man in uniform sitting at the back left of photo) who, despite the Red Cross armband, was actually signed up to the Army Service Corps (as was Jim later). Who knows - maybe Michael Foley is one of the younger men in this photo, if it's a group of Irish men?? At any rate, it's a terrible tragedy that he served as long as he did and died so young in the last year of the war. It's never too late to commemorate these men and if it's any consolation to EarleeRiser, Jim Giltrap was also supposed to be the black sheep of his family! It seems that whatever their motivation might have been for signing up and escaping trouble at home, they redeemed themselves far beyond expectation, given the service they provided in the end.

EarlERizer

Curiousgal wrote: »

Hi Arnhem,

you're right - the photo was taken early on in Jim's service because it was sent in the summer of 1916 and he joined in June. Just out of interest, why did the men take the stiffener out of their service caps?!

Thanks for the link to the Royal Garrison Regiments. That totally fits with family stories about Jim serving in South Africa. And you're right the records require a researcher to access them. A few months back I engaged a guy listed on the UK National Archives website who did the research for me. His name is Stephen Wright (www.londonresearchservice.com) and he was fantastic - I would recommend him to anyone interested in finding out more about their relatives. Within a week of sending him an email I had copies of the records in the post - and all for the equivalent of €40 - much cheaper than going there myself and wondering where to start! Sadly Jim Giltrap's WWI record was destroyed in the Blitz and apparently the British Government destroyed the Royal Garrison Regiment records. However, I did discover that Jim was in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers from 1891 until 1895 in India, when he was discharged back home due to persistent ill-health. This might explain why he was only able to sign up as a reserve subsequently.

I see you've been unearthing EarleeRiser's ancestor's fate - funnily enough the photo I put up also includes my other great granduncle Freddy Jackson (oblong-faced man in uniform sitting at the back left of photo) who, despite the Red Cross armband, was actually signed up to the Army Service Corps (as was Jim later). Who knows - maybe Michael Foley is one of the younger men in this photo, if it's a group of Irish men?? At any rate, it's a terrible tragedy that he served as long as he did and died so young in the last year of the war. It's never too late to commemorate these men and if it's any consolation to EarleeRiser, Jim Giltrap was also supposed to be the black sheep of his family! It seems that whatever their motivation might have been for signing up and escaping trouble at home, they redeemed themselves far beyond expectation, given the service they provided in the end.

Just looking at your picture here now Curious, the guy sat front n centre with the white shirt n braces (and gaunt expression) looks uncannily like my Uncle Mick Foley , mum's brother (funny how the same 3 mens names crop up throughout the family history (Michael,James & John), but he looks alot older than the 33 young years of my ancestor....then again , war would do that to a young man surely. It's intriguing.I realy hope to unearth more on his history and cant belive how much info i've already received today from arnhem44.

Curiousgal

EarlERizer wrote: »

Just looking at your picture here now Curious, the guy sat front n centre with the white shirt n braces (and gaunt expression) looks uncannily like my Uncle Mick Foley , mum's brother (funny how the same 3 mens names crop up throughout the family history (Michael,James & John), but he looks alot older than the 33 young years of my ancestor....then again , war would do that to a young man surely. It's intriguing.I realy hope to unearth more on his history and cant belive how much info i've already received today from arnhem44.

I know - the guys on this site are amazing - I've found out so much I would never have known, thanks to them :-)

Wouldn't it be fascinating if that were your Uncle Mick. I 'studied' that man quite intensely because my cousin originally thought that was our Uncle Jim. I now know Jim is the man on the far right (from other photos). One of the clues for me is that the gaunt man in the white shirt has a wedding ring (my uncle wasn't married) - so that might help in your identification? Yes, he looks older than early 30s but as you say, who knows. If it's your Uncle Mick, he would have had a year of war behind him - pretty harrowing - and he is clearly not a well man in this photo. Do men in your family go grey/white-haired early on in life? (My lot do - as Jim did). Also, look at this man's hands - I think he has rheumatoid arthritis, which can start at any age, if there's a genetic history. One more aid is to look at this Red Cross Ambulance Train photo I put up before. I have found my uncles Jim and Freddy in it and the rotund man on the left is the man in the white shirt in the middle! I tried finding the other men in it and one possible match for this gaunt man is 3rd row from front, man with moustache standing far left. See what you think! He looks younger and you can't see his hair but I think it could be him. Following Arnhem's tip about the service caps, his is one of the few where the stiffener has been removed! - Indicating that this man is not a newbie like the others. This Red Cross photo is on the Red Cross website (they have 10 up) and has to have been taken in 1916 because my uncle Jim only served between June 1916 and Jan 1917. Get your family to have a look at all the men, as there are clearly some Irish in there and some of them are Army Service Corps. Good luck!

arnhem44

Curiousgal wrote: »

you're right - the photo was taken early on in Jim's service because it was sent in the summer of 1916 and he joined in June. Just out of interest, why did the men take the stiffener out of their service caps?!

There would of been many reasons,there was different types of service caps issued during the war.The stiff service cap from a soldiers view point was impractical for trench warfare,often a soldier when going over the top would simply stuff his hat inside his tunic whilst he wore his helmet.Common practice was to leave the cap behind with his other belongings but this was not always the case.As war went on the service cap became less rigid,one having ear warmers that would have the side pieces tied up on top of the cap so the stiffener was not present in these,also a later version saw a soft peaked cap again making them easy to store away.The cap was very important in the early years of the war as a lot of soldiers did not have a helmet,helmet's would be passed from unit to unit until each soldier was issued with his own personal helmet which wasn't I believe till 1916 so again the cap would of being worn on a regular basis.A stiff cap would really not put up with the rigors of war so when you see studio photo's taken in France or Belgium for example showing a soldier with a stiff cap it normally indicates that he has not been there long.Looking again at the photo shows something interesting,the two men shown seated in the centre if you look closely shows that one has a silver identity bracelet (although just showing the chain)on his right wrist,these were often private purchase items because the fibre identity discs would often rot away in wet ground(a soldiers fear of not been identified).The other man shows he's wearing a wrist watch,again a feature that was only becoming popular at the time.Lastly looking at the reflection in the window appears to indicate there is another building similar in construction to the one behind the men which must one would assume that the photo was taken at some form of billets or barracks.

johnny_doyle

Curiousgal wrote: »

Hi Johnny,

I'm back again re. James A. Giltrap! My cousin has finally sent me the original photo that helped me spot Jim and a few others in the Red Cross Ambulance Train photo. Jim is on the far right in uniform. The unusual statue is just behind the men - looks like authors or poets maybe? Their heads are not clear but maybe, just maybe somebody knows where it was/is? I think he sent this photo from France but I've since discovered he served in Belgium also.

Anywa, it's an interesting photo all the same - tea break in all the madness of the war,

Best,
Curiousgal

that's a good photo you have there! Would be good if the location could be identified.

Curiousgal

johnny_doyle wrote: »

that's a good photo you have there! Would be good if the location could be identified.

Ah Johnny, I was pinning my hopes on you for that one :-)

I've been following Arnhem's lead and looking closely at the photo... and I can make out two letters on the plinth of the statue. I reckon it's a capital C followed by O. Did a bit of googling and given the clothes, book etc. I'm thinking it could be a statue of Francois Coppée?? Okay, it's a longshot but if anyone can help further, that would be great!

Arnhem, that's fascinating about the caps. I never would have thought that the men were sent over the trenches without helmets - talk about lambs to the slaughter... And the identity chain and the watch... - the chain would suggest that that man had seen a bit of action already and knew the consequences... I noticed the reflection of the other building in the window too. I reckon they were built in a public park, if you consider how close they are to the statue and the table being awkwardly placed over the little picket fence round the flowers. Might suggest a relatively large barracks? Will keep googling re. the statue anyway!

arnhem44

Curiousgal wrote:

Arnhem, that's fascinating about the caps. I never would have thought that the men were sent over the trenches without helmets - talk about lambs to the slaughter...

Hi Curiousgal,they wouldn't have been sent over the top without a helmet.Early in the war when a unit were going up the line helmets would be swapped from one unit retuning from the front line to the another going to the front line,this went on where needed until each soldier was issued his own helmet.This would of meant the service cap would of seen a lot more use early in the war compared to later and would of taken a lot more punishment especially with a stiffener left in.

Curiousgal

arnhem44 wrote: »

Hi Curiousgal,they wouldn't have been sent over the top without a helmet.Early in the war when a unit were going up the line helmets would be swapped from one unit retuning from the front line to the another going to the front line,this went on where needed until each soldier was issued his own helmet.This would of meant the service cap would of seen a lot more use early in the war compared to later and would of taken a lot more punishment especially with a stiffener left in.

Ah, okay, I understand now. That's something at least...

johnny_doyle

Curiousgal wrote: »

Ah Johnny, I was pinning my hopes on you for that one :-)

I've been following Arnhem's lead and looking closely at the photo... and I can make out two letters on the plinth of the statue. I reckon it's a capital C followed by O. Did a bit of googling and given the clothes, book etc. I'm thinking it could be a statue of Francois Coppée?? Okay, it's a longshot but if anyone can help further, that would be great!

Arnhem, that's fascinating about the caps. I never would have thought that the men were sent over the trenches without helmets - talk about lambs to the slaughter... And the identity chain and the watch... - the chain would suggest that that man had seen a bit of action already and knew the consequences... I noticed the reflection of the other building in the window too. I reckon they were built in a public park, if you consider how close they are to the statue and the table being awkwardly placed over the little picket fence round the flowers. Might suggest a relatively large barracks? Will keep googling re. the statue anyway!

no idea about statues I'm afraid. Is there some writing on the bottom of the photo that's been cut off?

The BA started issuing "Brodie" helmets in 1916 - some of the generals were against this thinking that the men would "go soft". I'd always thought that the German pickelhaube helmets were metal and that the Germans were ahead of the game but it transpires that they were leather. The French appeared to have issued some sort of metal skull cap that soldiers wore under their soft caps. Shrapnel from artillery was the driver for helmets. Head protection wasn't much use going over the top as rifle and machine gun fire would have been directed against the soldiers torso and below (more chance of missing if you aim up towards the head). The helmet became more useful then if you had to go to ground.

A small digression - following WW1, the Free State Army looked at adopting the French Adrienne helmet before choosing the German style scuttlebucket helmet. This was then replaced in the run up to WW2 with the British Brodie style helmet.

Curiousgal

johnny_doyle wrote: »

no idea about statues I'm afraid. Is there some writing on the bottom of the photo that's been cut off?

Well spotted. As far as I recall from the original the writing gave no indication of where they were. Although the printed letters EP might be a clue... The photo was printed as a postcard so it was franked on the back with a French stamp - you can see the wavy postmark on the statue. Couldn't make out the location though.

Re the helmets - just out of interest, were the Red Cross guys issued with helmets or did they just have to hope no-one would aim at them?

Curiousgal

Hi Guys,
I got a photocopy of the other side of that photo of the Red Cross guys having a tea-break. I've scanned it but unfortunately the two post marks are so faint, it's impossible to make them out. The original was the same. The one piece of information that might give a clue is the Field Censor number - 4110 (I think) - but I guess that's a long shot?

arnhem44

The censor number would be attributed to a field post office,each section having it's own number but it would require someone who has studied such things to be able to tell you what sector it was posted from,a specialist subject I'm afraid and I would imagine difficult to find an answer to.

Curiousgal

Thanks, Arnhem. Did a bit of googling and have emailed the British Postal Museum & Archive who may just know the answer!

arnhem44

I recall somewhere that the information was destroyed years ago as the records were deemed to be no longer need but I may be wrong.The best of luck with your search anyway and let us know how you get on.

johnny_doyle

The following group might be worth contacting :

http://www.forcespostalhistorysociety.org.uk/