[Article] Government Considers Infrastructure Bond Plan to See Through Major Projects

murphaph

tech2 wrote: »

Yes they primarily serve the people who commute to Dublin every day and quick access to the main ports.

Tens of thousands of commuters pouring into Dublin does not 'serve' Dublin at all though. It's a hindrance to the effective functioning of the city. Dublin needs high quality commuter rail to get these people off the roads and free up roadspace for goods from Dublin and the regions to have a clear path to Dublin Port.

bk

tech2 wrote: »

So is it fair then to say the west shouldnt pay for the motorways built at the east of the country.

Sounds good to me, so the people of the west pay for only their infrastructure, while the people of the east only pay for their own.

Of course the net effect would be an increase in expenditure on infrastructure in the east, while a decrease in expenditure on the west, as how it currently works 100% of your tax stays in the west and is invested in the west, while a certain percentage of my tax leaves the east and gets invested in the west.

As a Corkonian living in Dublin, your above proposal sounds completely fair and equitable to me

Not really, personally I don't mind some of my tax being spent on other parts of the country for nationally important projects like the Major Interurban Motorways, Atlantic Road Corridor, etc. even if I never use them myself. I just hate seeing it being wasted on completely wasteful and unnecessary, ego driven projects like WRC and Knock Airport.

invincibleirish

tech2 wrote: »

But rail links are also needed to connect medium urban centres such as Limerick, Galway and Sligo. I would agree that the Sligo-Galway line wont attract as many commuters as the Galway-Ennis-Limerick line but I still feel it is needed in my opinion as an alternative to the bus service for public transport in the area.

What are you basing this opinion that i've highlighted on? Why is a rail alternative needed?

Limerick-Galway-Sligo are not medium urban centres, they are towns/very small cities.

bk

The idea of this bond sounds great to me, as long as it was transparently managed and the money was guaranteed to only be spent on certain, pre identified projects like Metro North, Dart Underground, ARC, etc. and not on rubbish like the WRC.

The bond could even be marketed as a green bond if the majority of investment was on public transport projects like MN and DU. I would imagine that it would be very popular then, even amongst the ordinary people of Ireland.

Back a few months ago, the Congress of Trade Unions were floating the idea of a national bond and I thought it was a crazy idea, who would invest in a bond who's whole purpose seemed to be to just pay for public servants salary and pensions.

But the idea of a good infrastructure bond, where worst case scenario I end up with infrastructure that I and my children will end up benefiting from, which may help the environment and where I'll even make a few bob on, sounds great.

We should have been doing this for years, rather then NTR making a fortune on M50 tolls, it could have been paid for by the ordinary people of Ireland, who could have made a nice return while knowing that some of the toll you are paying will be paid back to you.

Something like this could have helped the ordinary people of Ireland benefit more from the celtic tiger years, rather then all the money going to the builders and the likes of NTR.

They could even potentially sell such a bond at a slightly lower rate then national bonds, if they sold it direct to the people of Ireland, through a SSIA type scheme, where they promote it's patriotic and green credentials, brilliant idea.

Sponge Bob

Float 2 bonds so , a green and a not so green one

But we have to have absolute certainty on the core projects each bond will finance .

I somehow cannot see the Dubs paying up for a green bond used to extend the WRC to Derry ....as proposed by some .

I can see a roads bond getting sold if it contains the Tuam - Cork road AND the DOOR from the M7/M9 to Drogheda ....both .

But Handing €2bn to Noel Dempsey with no clarity on its ultimate use ????.

That will assuredly fail and may even affect general government debt issuance .

Bards

bk wrote: »

But the idea of a good infrastructure bond, where worst case scenario I end up with infrastructure that I and my children will end up benefiting from, which may help the environment and where I'll even make a few bob on, sounds great.

We should have been doing this for years, rather then NTR making a fortune on M50 tolls, it could have been paid for by the ordinary people of Ireland, who could have made a nice return while knowing that some of the toll you are paying will be paid back to you.

Something like this could have helped the ordinary people of Ireland benefit more from the celtic tiger years, rather then all the money going to the builders and the likes of NTR.

They could even potentially sell such a bond at a slightly lower rate then national bonds, if they sold it direct to the people of Ireland, through a SSIA type scheme, where they promote it's patriotic and green credentials, brilliant idea.

more or less what I said in post #3

Tech3

invincibleirish wrote: »

What are you basing this opinion that i've highlighted on? Why is a rail alternative needed?

Limerick-Galway-Sligo are not medium urban centres, they are towns/very small cities.

Limerick and Galway are the 3rd and 4th largest cities in Ireland. You think there is no need for a rail line between 2 cities?

There is an over reliance on the slow bus service. It takes 5 hours to get a bus from Sligo- Limerick. That is totally unacceptable. With a rail link this will reduce travel times significantly. I support every project being done in the country yet some people have to disagree on the WRC.

However if I was to pick between the M17 and WRC phase 2 being done I would pick the M17 any day of the week.

Tech3

murphaph wrote: »

Tens of thousands of commuters pouring into Dublin does not 'serve' Dublin at all though. It's a hindrance to the effective functioning of the city. Dublin needs high quality commuter rail to get these people off the roads and free up roadspace for goods from Dublin and the regions to have a clear path to Dublin Port.

The problem is however some people travel up to 200km outside of the city to work in Dublin. So would you suggest a rail line following all the motorways out of the city?

Tech3

bk wrote: »

Sounds good to me, so the people of the west pay for only their infrastructure, while the people of the east only pay for their own.

Of course the net effect would be an increase in expenditure on infrastructure in the east, while a decrease in expenditure on the west, as how it currently works 100% of your tax stays in the west and is invested in the west, while a certain percentage of my tax leaves the east and gets invested in the west.

As a Corkonian living in Dublin, your above proposal sounds completely fair and equitable to me

Not really, personally I don't mind some of my tax being spent on other parts of the country for nationally important projects like the Major Interurban Motorways, Atlantic Road Corridor, etc. even if I never use them myself. I just hate seeing it being wasted on completely wasteful and unnecessary, ego driven projects like WRC and Knock Airport.

I pay a high level of tax and even though I will never use the WRC I will be happy to pay for part of it.

Im not living in the west but I do think its badly needed. It should relieve some heavy congestion in Galway City also. Im looking at this going forward. The area around the west is expected to get more populated in the next 10 years and having infrastrucutre like this in place is what is needed to provide people with the public service they deserve.

Gruffalo

Nostradamus wrote: »

You will find there are several posters on this board living in the West who are not fans of this idiotic rail corridor either. Maybe you and Guffalo can form a focus group and prove the case for the WRC. I am sure it'll be completely objective and within the bounds of sensible transport ecomomics and without a hint of victim complexes nor an overblown sense of personal entitlement.

No victim complexes here Nostradamus, as I have regularly pointed out, I am not from the West, nor am I a trainspotter.

I was just pointing out that you always seem to pick on the one project that is in the West. This given the fact that it is the cheapest of the rail projects. Perhaps you could be even in your criticism.

I'd be happy for them to bus the remainder of the route for the time being and let them build up a bigger population base in the meantime.

Gruffalo

Nostradamus wrote: »

They only reason people like you want the WRC is because you will be forcing tax payers in Dublin, Leinster and Cork to pay for it. No other reason.

You dumb moron, I have said on more than one occassion where I am from. My username tells you where I am from i.e. Grumpy Rude Uncensored Fvcker From Around Laois Offaly i.e. I am from Leinster. So your "no other reason" is clearly as dumb as you, you silly little sausage! Think before you lash out with you incoherent babble.

Seeing as you clearly refuse to acknowledge my position on the WRC, I will repeat it. I think it should be built over time. No great rush.

Gruffalo

dermo88 wrote: »

I'd be all in favour of a major infrastructure bond, if it were'nt for the people in charge of implementing it.

murphaph and nostradamus have it summed up. Meanwhile tech2 and gruffalo, I will ask some questions.

Lets take an alternate scenario:

Lets assume that there never was a derailment in Knockcroghery in 1997. Lets then ask some relevant questions based on that?

1. Knowing the Irish Govt, their policies are reactive rather than proactive. How much of the Irish railway network would survive today, with minimal investment since 1997?

2. How many railways would survive in Mayo, bearing in mind our current economic situation?

3. How much pressure will Iarnrod Eireann come under financially in the next few years?

4. The service to Mayo has been improved dramatically since ....

5. There are new trains in the West....

But oh no.....here we go again. The West is deprived, and wants to reopen the Ludramanbahn, or Leperbahn. Either way, the first means idiotic, and the second means disease. And thats what the northern section of the WRC represents to the future development of rail transport in Ireland.

Fair enough for Ennis to Athenry, which should never have closed, but the powers that be in CIE never had the foresight to divert the old Limerick to Ballina service, and make it into a Cork to Galway train instead, which MIGHT have worked.

Meanwhile

How long did the dirty ould Dubs have to wait?

Hmm.....lets see.

Dublin suburban electrification, first proposed by the D&SER in 1918. Finally implemented in...........1984
Luas. Luas is in fact, a poor mans DART. Take a look at the Voorhees plans of 1974. Coincidentally, they got delayed by a recession in the 1970's. Another recession in the 1980's. And if they get delayed again, lets just say Dubs would be quite entitled to be browned off. Particularly when the likes of Mayo keep voting in Cabbage headed gombeens such as Padraig Flynn, and his daughter. Particularly when there is this idea that Foynes should be linked to the rail network, as if it was some sort of Western Irish Singapore or Hong Kong in terms of traffic. Or, Knock International Airport, a laughable concept, and it still is, logic dictates it should have been built in Sligo, but somehow....logic does not exist in the West.

Not only the West, lets have a look at another place that did'nt get its due.

Cork - LUTS, first proposed 1978, finally implemented 2009, 2010, 2011....whenever

I could go on. But then it will be called an "anti western rant", or an "Anti railway rant", and having said nothing for around a year on the issue, since I have better things to do, I think I have done more than enough to prove otherwise.

Meanwhile, in the depths of this recession, let us bear in mind in the era of the Playstation, the Internet, etc that this is no Great famine. NOONE WILL STARVE IN IRELAND.

Repeat.

And be glad of that.

But in the West, the old spectre of Famine never went away. And thats why the begging bowls are out, tax evasion, nod and wink, and skullduggery, cutehoorism are in.

Oh stop it, you are making my eyes water.

Did you even read my post. It appears that none of you have but it has not stopped you claiming that I am playing the old victim card.

What I asked Nostradamus was, would his rule apply to all projects. If so, I have nothing against it. But it should not be a case of the West paying towards its transport and the East not, or the other way around. If you want to read the WRC thread you will see that I have called for a clearer more transparent procedure to determine where infrastructure should go.

In my earlier post on this thread I said that I think all local councils should pay for the stations. This would incentivise them to populate towns and adjust their planning procedures accordingly etc.

Please stop attributing positions to me. I have clearly stated mine.

murphaph

Gruffalo wrote: »

I think all local councils should pay for the stations. This would incentivise them to populate towns and adjust their planning procedures accordingly etc.

this is already the case in dublin.

Sponge Bob

I thought that the councils in Dublin forced developers to build them . eg Grange road and Adamstown .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:North_west_dart_planned.png

murphaph

Same thing really. The local residents end up paying in the examples you provided because the cost is passed on to the purchaser. If you are building your own home or extending a commercial premises etc. you must pay development levies directly to the council if you are within the corridor. I don't mind the idea in principle, but paying a levy for metro West when it's unlikely to be built for many many years seems somewhat unfair. Perhaps they should refund people if no construction has started after say 5 years of paying your development levy.

Nostradamus

Gruffalo wrote: »

No victim complexes here Nostradamus, as I have regularly pointed out, I am not from the West, nor am I a trainspotter.

I was just pointing out that you always seem to pick on the one project that is in the West.

The thing is I do not PICK on the WRC, I only point out the sheer insanity of it. That's because I care about my country and I want it to have good railways logical to the sevices requirments in each area. In other areas a good bus services would be better.

What's wrong with that? How is that a rant? How is that anti West of Ireland? Tell me were I am going wrong?

I see myself as an Irishman first and everything else second. This is a concept utterly foreign to the backers of the WRC. They have no notion of Ireland the nation, only Mayo the county. Which would be fine if they were paying for it, but they are not.

dermo88 was spot on when he said Limerick to Athenry should of never been closed. I am somewhat glad to see that reopening, but... sadly they (goverment) made a total arse of it and just reinstanted the original victorian track layout at Athenry. The end result is that the rail line will be much slower than the bus.

How is this progress? How is that a public transport leap forward?

I live about 200 yards from the Sligo end of this project. The rail line is manky, the thing was originally built to a shocking level of engeineering. Hardly more than a tramway. It's twists and truns and winds and goes right through many people front gardens right in front of their front doors.

Are they to be ethnically cleasend from their homes? Has WestonTrack informed them this is a real possiblity? Will Irish Railway News managers fly over from London to knock on these peoples doors and tell them to move so they can spot timber trains? How does this tie in with their "people of the West!!!!" mantra? The people who live in these houses are from the West and there are to be transplanted to open a rail line no one will use as it'll be useless. There are 90, count them 90 level crossings between Tuam and Sligo which would have to be automated at the cost of 900,000 each. For what? A 40mph rattler with a couple of grannies on free travel passes along with some over-excited anorak scribbling in his jotter?

Add to that I see the people coming on and off the Sligo to Galway bus and it is never more than a handful and will always be cheaper and quicker than reopening the rail line. It is a decent bus service too. Flies along the new roads through Mayo, is amazing value and the buses are really nice. The service could be more frequent, but it'll still be better than any rail service on the norther WRC?

Whose head is up whose backside here when it comes to the "essential demand" for the WRC north of Athenry?

My opinions has nothing to do with any agenda I have against the West. I live here, I made my home here, I invested in the region because I beleive in it, I work for several community groups and organisation. I can tell you for an absolute fact that the nothern half of the Western Rail Corridor has no future.

From a railway development aspect, it will be an incredibly dangerous thing to reopen. West on Track and their instinctual cheerleaders in Irish Railway News are lost in cloud coo-koo land, have raging self-absorbed egos and seem to think that money just falls from the sky while the wind is blowing from the East. If you take away the victim complexes/trainspotter fantasies you are left with nothing to justify a single inch of track being reopened between Athenry and Sligo.

That's the truth, you can chose to beleive me or not. Imply I have a hatred of people West of the Shannon, or you can deal with the reality of just how potentially destructive this rail line will be for the future of ALL future rail investment in Ireland.

Our national rail transport development cannot be decided upon by signatures taken in the post office in Claremorris from people who have no intention of using the WRC.

Bottom line; If you are pro Rail Transport in Ireland, then you have to be anti- Western Rail Corridor.

Amtmann

An update on this in today's (Monday's) paper:

TOMORROW’S BUDGET may include a plan for a new scheme whereby pension funds would invest in infrastructure projects in Ireland such as roads, schools and hospitals, with a guaranteed rate of return from the State.

“There’s a proposition on the table which looks quite attractive,” a senior political source told The Irish Times.

Legal technicalities still remained to be clarified last night but the idea is seen as one that could be of mutual benefit to investors looking for steady rates of return and a Government that has run short of funds.

The bond scheme would be expected to draw in €1 billion-€3 billion to substitute for capital spending from State funds.

The money would be a possible source of funding for Minister for Health and Children Mary Harney to set up the long-sought cystic fibrosis unit at St Vincent’s Hospital, Dublin.

Describing the plan as a larger-scale equivalent of the special savings investment account (SSIA) scheme of recent years, political sources said there would be a “very solid return” for investors.

However, senior sources also cautioned that the proposed bond was not the “silver bullet” which would solve all funding problems.

The proposal was initially put forward by the Construction Industry Council, which pointed out that more than 80 per cent of Irish pension funds are currently invested outside the State. ...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0406/1224244067974.html

mysterious

God would they just get a move on with it:rolleyes:

The most pressing scheme should be M20(Adare-bypass) north scheme and M18 to Tuam first.

Adare can't wait more than two years. The summer time is horrendos in Adare. Think Of all traffic from the West, Midwest, East, heading to Kerry and the Southwest through this village. It's kind of embarressing to have DC traffic going through a picturesque village in this day and age. In summer it rises to 20,000 a day.

This could be further misleading though alot of traffic avoid Adare and rat run around it, to avoid the long queus coming off the DC further North.

Also I noticed the counter for the Croom bypass is rsing very rapidly. it's apporaching 15,000. While the Adare section is decreasing due to traffic avoiding Adare I'd say. This is like Kildare and Enfield back in the day.

The N4 used to have high growth at Kinnegad and Kilcock. But the closest counter near Enfiled would of been slightly less and never increase much. The road would be at peak capacity and lenghty queues would be throughout. So alot of traffic would defer at that particular counter. You can see from The Adare counter there were sharp rises in the past. Now it's almost static. Yet populations are booming along the N21. Just giving you idea how bad Adare is getting in real terms. It needs to be bypassed.

The only reason Adare doesn't get much heated debate, is because it's a very small village, and there isn't much blockages to hinder traffic through the town. It's the sheer volume that funnells into it that causes the queues. This reminds me of enfiled back in the day.

Victor

bk wrote: »

They could even potentially sell such a bond at a slightly lower rate then national bonds, if they sold it direct to the people of Ireland, through a SSIA type scheme, where they promote it's patriotic and green credentials, brilliant idea.

You don't understand bonds, do you? The market will let you know what rate it will pay, you can't control rate other than by controlling supply.

DWCommuter

murphaph wrote: »

Recover to what level? Our manufacturing base has been eroding for 8 years but it was masked by everyone frantically buying and selling property at inflated prices. That tax source is now gone and it will not return to those levels. If we don't either slash our standard of living (thereby reducing the cost of labour) or come up with products/services that the rest of the world wants but can't make, then we're not going to see any recovery.

Hammer, nail, head.

People forget that our boom was a one trick pony. Ireland is in bigger trouble than many of you realise.

dowlingm

tech2 wrote: »

The problem is however some people travel up to 200km outside of the city to work in Dublin. So would you suggest a rail line following all the motorways out of the city?

I'm hoping that's a round trip number

smokingman

Was listening to the last word on the radio yesterday and this was being discussed - apparently a co-operative joint proposal between the construction industry and a union!! Pension funds get loaned to the government for schools/roads only, no zombie hotel developments and the like.

I was kinda stunned sitting there as I think this is a great idea and to think a union is pushing a great idea.....good thing I was sitting down!