[Article] Government Considers Infrastructure Bond Plan to See Through Major Projects

Amtmann

THE DEPARTMENT of Finance is giving “serious consideration” to a proposal from the construction industry to launch an infrastructure bond that would help fund major capital projects.

The proposal was submitted by the Construction Industry Council (CIC), which represents a wide range of parties in the construction sector here, and includes input from the Irish Association of Investment Managers (IAIM), the umbrella body for pension fund managers.

It is understood that the bond could be structured in such a way that it would effectively be an off-balance sheet investment in relation to the Government’s exchequer finances.

This would prove attractive to the Government as it would not count towards the budget deficit for the purpose of euro zone membership, although it would still be likely to require approval from Brussels. The bond would involve investment from Irish pension funds and the private sector in a bond that would invest in projects with a lifespan of 15 years or more.
These could include new toll roads, rail projects or a package of investments in schools or hospitals, where annual return could be made to investors.

The investment could range from €1 billion to €5 billion and would underpin about 70,000 jobs in the construction sector, one informed source indicated.

The Irish construction industry has been the worst hit by the recession over the past 12 months due to the collapse in the property market. Its representative bodies have been working hard to find alternative proposals to help kick-start activity again.

A spokesman for the Department of Finance declined to comment on whether Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan will include the proposed bond in his budget speech on Tuesday.

Mr Lenihan is expected to decide over the weekend what measures will be included in the supplementary budgets.

Earlier this week, employers’ group Ibec indicated its support for a “national infrastructure bond” as part of its supplementary budget proposals. It said such a bond “could raise substantial resources to continue an ambitious programme of capital investment”.

Ibec said “off-balance sheet options should be explored in order to maintain the existing volume of infrastructure activity under the public capital investment programme”.

In a statement issued yesterday on the key issues it would like to see addressed in the budget, the Construction Industry Federation said the “use of off-balance sheet funding mechanisms to bring forward additional [building] projects” should be considered.

No comment on the proposal was available from either the CIC or the IAIM. Irish pension funds manage about €200 billion of clients’ money, of which more than 85 per cent is invested abroad.

Any bond would have to give superior returns to Government-issued gilts. This would suggest an interest rate of about 5 per cent over the term of the investment, with the capital paid on maturity.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0404/1224244011712.html

The Word Is Bor

IMHO it would be a mistake to significantly cut back on infrastructural spending now. I'll declare an interest here, in that if infrastructural spending is cut/slashed then my job and many of the friends would at risk. At the moment contractor's are willing to slit each other's throat just to win a job. However larger projects require significant funding on the part of the contractor which in the current climate is not exactly forthcoming. The problem is that consultancies will have to lay-off engineers and technicians, resulting in a brain-drain. No jobs in Ireland so people will be forced to look elsewhere, not too many options though. Contractor's are laying-off the grunts (that is if they directly employ said grunts) and engineers. When things pick up there will be a severe knowledge shortfall resulting in significantly higher costs for carrying out the work.

A serious re-prioritisation of infrastructural spending is required to make sure that the appropriate value for money is achieved.

Bards

I'd be happy to invest in a Bond either directly or through my pension, I am sure there are thousand out there who would do the very same.

Even if the returns I get don't don;t measue up, at least the country will have something to show for it as opposed to supporting foreign investments which go wrong.

T Corolla

Would such a bond be open to everyone. I assume if they were looking for the indicated figures they would be looking for wealthy investors who have done well from the boom to re-invest their fortunes in such a bond.
IMO there would be a low return from such investmestments post construcion due to the radical changes in the cost of energy. I think a similar scheme should be setup and invested into manufacturing and food production on the high end scale as well as transport

AugustusMaximus

Hopefully the gov will see that infrastructure spending needs to keep going.

It will take time, but the economy will RECOVER IN FULL give maybe even 2 to 3 years.

murphaph

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

Hopefully the gov will see that infrastructure spending needs to keep going.

It will take time, but the economy will RECOVER IN FULL give maybe even 2 to 3 years.

Recover to what level? Our manufacturing base has been eroding for 8 years but it was masked by everyone frantically buying and selling property at inflated prices. That tax source is now gone and it will not return to those levels. If we don't either slash our standard of living (thereby reducing the cost of labour) or come up with products/services that the rest of the world wants but can't make, then we're not going to see any recovery.

Sponge Bob

Where does the income stream come from to pay interest on the bond ???? School Management Boards ???? Tolls ???

This looks like a 'special' NTMA issue to the general public....normal government debt with a fancy name .

But as PPP consortiums are looking at paying 10% on their borrowings and as the government could ping such a bond out at 3-4% interest it is certainly worth looking at as long as it is not controlled by grubby FF chancers and Tom Parlon .

It is also important to the government that this be at arms length and not counted in the national debt , dunno how they will manage that one . I suspect they cannot .

Maybe they want us to structure it for them

BluntGuy

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

Hopefully the gov will see that infrastructure spending needs to keep going.

It will take time, but the economy will RECOVER IN FULL give maybe even 2 to 3 years.

I'm afraid even if we HAD an economy, 2-3 years would be optimistic.

In two/three years, things will be back to where they were before the boom and in some respects even worse.

I wouldn't be surprised if by then the IMF were running the whole country. They would more than certainly help us balance our finances, but they are not the organization we want to be in control of our affairs.

Nostradamus

There is another thing. If as WestonTrack, IRN and various railway tourists claim that the Western Rail Corridor is what everyone west of the Shannon is dying to have, then let them put their money were their mouth is and issue a bond to pay for it and let's see just how many people in Mayo etc are willing to fund it?

That would end the debate one way or other once and for all.

Gruffalo

Nostradamus wrote: »

There is another thing. If as WestonTrack, IRN and various railway tourists claim that the Western Rail Corridor is what everyone west of the Shannon is dying to have, then let them put their money were their mouth is and issue a bond to pay for it and let's see just how many people in Mayo etc are willing to fund it?

That would end the debate one way or other once and for all.

Would this policy apply to all or is this just another of your thinly disguised anti-west rants.

Slightly off topic but, who currently pays for the stations? If it is not the local councils, should it be? It would certainly give them an incentive to ensure that towns which get stations are suitably populated. It is also a policy which could be applied fairly across the country.

Tech3

Nostradamus wrote: »

There is another thing. If as WestonTrack, IRN and various railway tourists claim that the Western Rail Corridor is what everyone west of the Shannon is dying to have, then let them put their money were their mouth is and issue a bond to pay for it and let's see just how many people in Mayo etc are willing to fund it?

That would end the debate one way or other once and for all.

So is it fair then to say the west shouldnt pay for the motorways built at the east of the country. Most of these roads are funded by the taxpayers of Ireland thus people from the west contribute to them. In return they have a poor standard of road and rail network yet we get people like yourself who are always complaining with your anti-west comments.

Drive in the west of Ireland before you start posting disgusting comments like that.

kind regards

L1011

tech2 wrote: »

So is it fair then to say the west shouldnt pay for the motorways built at the east of the country. Most of these roads are funded by the taxpayers of Ireland thus people from the west contribute to them. In return they have a poor standard of road and rail network yet we get people like yourself who are always complaining with your anti-west comments.

Drive in the west of Ireland before you start posting disgusting comments like that.

kind regards

Proportion comes in to play. County Dublin has 1.1M people, Mayo has 126,000. Before the crash a higher % of those in Dublin would have been paying income tax also...

Cool Mo D

tech2 wrote: »

So is it fair then to say the west shouldnt pay for the motorways built at the east of the country. Most of these roads are funded by the taxpayers of Ireland thus people from the west contribute to them. In return they have a poor standard of road and rail network yet we get people like yourself who are always complaining with your anti-west comments.

Drive in the west of Ireland before you start posting disgusting comments like that.

kind regards

No-one in the west pays for anything in Dublin anyway - if you break the country into counties, Dublin is the only one that pays more tax than the Government spending it receives back.

Tech3

MYOB wrote: »

Proportion comes in to play. County Dublin has 1.1M people, Mayo has 126,000. Before the crash a higher % of those in Dublin would have been paying income tax also...

I fully agree but the infrastructure in the west is very poor. So Mayo for example contibute a 10th of what the Dublin area would in taxes. They are still providing a 10th of what Dublin contribute. When you include other counties like Galway and Roscommon it can make up a lot more. Expenditure by the state on infrastructure in these areas does not reflect this in my opinion.

Tech3

Cool Mo D wrote: »

No-one in the west pays for anything in Dublin anyway - if you break the country into counties, Dublin is the only one that pays more tax than the Government spending it receives back.

Considering most of the investment goes into Dublin and surrounding areas I disagree. Dublin only makes up a quarter of the population in Ireland. That said Im all for good infrastrusture in our capital and commuter belts linked to it. When the motorway inter urban network is completed next year projects such as the N17 and N20 need to be looked at.

The western rail coridor is being constructed whether Nostradamus likes it or not.

L1011

tech2 wrote: »

I fully agree but the infrastructure in the west is very poor. So Mayo for example contibute a 10th of what the Dublin area would in taxes. They are still providing a 10th of what Dublin contribute. When you include other counties like Galway and Roscommon it can make up a lot more. Expenditure by the state on infrastructure in these areas does not reflect this in my opinion.

I suspect it recieves its tenth, or more, in terms of overall taxation spend.

SeanW

tech2 wrote: »

The western rail coridor is being constructed whether Nostradamus likes it or not.

And if it does, it will be a complete failure, sucking capital and a massive subsidy from worthwhile projects and destroy the case for further railway investment by giving the likes of Sean Barrett a textbook example of why trains don't work.

The West is little more than a patchwork of small cities, smaller towns and a massive distributed settlement of one-off houses. Railways do not work in this environment. I fear that if anything North of Athenry is built, it will be found that it would have been cheaper to hire a fleet of taxis for all the passengers that would use it.

If the West isn't getting a fair deal (which I seriously doubt after listening to the Shannon whingers brigade for a long time) then you might as well build something that Western people are going to use - like the M17.

Nostradamus

tech2 wrote: »

Drive in the west of Ireland before you start posting disgusting comments like that.

kind regards

LOL! I do drive in the West. Every day of the week ya silly hysterical sausage.

Eh, because I actually live here. Mind you, I have long gotten used to trainspotters and various lunatics in Dublin and London telling me that all my neighbours are desperate for the WRC when none of them give a toss about it one way or another.

You do not have to take my word for it. I can go across the road an ask Jimmy now for you. If not him Aisling up the road or Paddy O'Hara across the way. I can assure you I have already chatted with them about the WRC and their view on the matter is radically different that the magical thinking of WestonTrack and their salivating trainspotters and the ever oppertunistic whoring polticians who would support a submarine base for Kiltimagh if they idea was presented.

You will find there are several posters on this board living in the West who are not fans of this idiotic rail corridor either. Maybe you and Guffalo can form a focus group and prove the case for the WRC. I am sure it'll be completely objective and within the bounds of sensible transport ecomomics and without a hint of victim complexes nor an overblown sense of personal entitlement.

Amazing how me suggesting that people in the West of Ireland actually pay for the Western Rail Corridor is instantly and hysterically branded as "digusting" - tells you all you really need to know doesn't it.

Nostradamus

MYOB wrote: »

I suspect it recieves its tenth, or more, in terms of overall taxation spend.

Mayo is covered from one end of the county to other is quality modern roads. Ever inch of operational ralway in Mayo have been relaid and resignalled to the highest level. They have modern trains on all rail routes leading into Mayo.

And then there is the little matter of Knock Airport... 500 Euro per pasenger subsidy.

But ya know, Mayo is being screwed by the Pale...

L1011

Nostradamus wrote: »

Mayo is covered from one end of the county to other is quality modern roads. Ever inch of operational ralway in Mayo have been relaid and resignalled toi the highest level. They have modern trains on all rail routes leading into Mayo.

And then there is the little matter of Knock Airport...

But ya know, Mayo is being screwed by the Pale...

There's also its surprisingly good rail network for the population distribution it has...

Nostradamus

MYOB wrote: »

There's also its surprisingly good rail network for the population distribution it has...

I would argue that Mayo is already better served by it's current rail system than the 2 million people living in the Pale.

Even pointing this out is akin to demanding genocide West of the Shannon with some of these loons. They do not do reality, only subjective victim complexes with one hand pointing towards Dublin screaming "guilty" and the other hand in the pocket of taxpayers in the rest of the country.

Nostradamus

Gruffalo wrote: »

Would this policy apply to all or is this just another of your thinly disguised anti-west rants.

It is the truth. Deal with it rather than lashing out with the on-demand victim complex.

Again, isn't it amazing that just me even suggesting that the West of Ireland fund the WRC literally sends the WRC brigade into convulsion. Their reaction to something as innocent as contributing to the funding of the WRC speaks volumes.

Let's cut to the chase. They only reason people like you want the WRC is because you will be forcing tax payers in Dublin, Leinster and Cork to pay for it. No other reason. You just want it because you think you are owed it for reasons that have nothing to do with public transport services in the region. You do not care if it carries 4 grannies on free travel passes to Knock or how much it costs. It's all about getting it and having it. Classic spoilt child psychosis.

If you actually cared about rail transport in Ireland you would be demanding this thing never be built as it'll become the ultimate example of rail failure if the WRC is ever built and will be then the benchmark to not invest in rail every again. Do you lot have any idea how unbelieveably dangerous you are being to the future of rail development in Ireland with this Sligo to Limerick fetish? Do you care?

Nope. It's not about rail - it's about infantile want.

murphaph

Cool Mo D wrote: »

No-one in the west pays for anything in Dublin anyway - if you break the country into counties, Dublin is the only one that pays more tax than the Government spending it receives back.

The latest CSO figures available say this is incorrect. Most of the counties in Leinster generate more tax revenue than is spent in them. Cork is also in net surplus. ALL of the counties of Connaught are net recipients of transfers, ie, not one county in Connaught generates enough taxes to pay for its day to day and capital expenditure and relies on transfers in from Cork, Leinster and yes that includes Dublin which generates the lion's share of the wealth in Ireland. Mayo is NOT hard done by.

I am currently applying for planning permission for a small commercial premises in South County Dublin. The site lies within the 1 km development levy area for BOTH the Kildare Route Project AND Metro West (a Luas line that may never even happen!). I must pay substantial (in the thousands, nearly 10,000) development levies to South Dublin County Council if I wish to build if planning is granted. In fact, very few people seem to realise that the development levy required by the RPA from South Dublin County is just shy of HALF the projected cost of the scheme through the county! That means kids that residential and commercial property owners must directly fund app. 250m euros towards Metro West in South Dublin alone. The rest comes from general taxation/PPP and NONE of that comes from Mayo I assure you as Mayo and all the other counties in Connaught are net recipients of taxes from Leinster and Cork. I don't begrudge Mayo the transfers but be grateful for God's sake!

Victor

tech2 wrote: »

Considering most of the investment goes into Dublin and surrounding areas I disagree.

Does it? Do you mean things like the M7 and M8 in Laois and Tipperary? Or the state funding for regional airports (with Dublin Airport told to fund itself from borrowings). Or the new intercity trains?

While things like the M50 might be built in Dublin, it serves a lot more than just Dublin - how do you think Mayo exporters get their products to UK markets?

dermo88

I'd be all in favour of a major infrastructure bond, if it were'nt for the people in charge of implementing it.

murphaph and nostradamus have it summed up. Meanwhile tech2 and gruffalo, I will ask some questions.

Lets take an alternate scenario:

Lets assume that there never was a derailment in Knockcroghery in 1997. Lets then ask some relevant questions based on that?

1. Knowing the Irish Govt, their policies are reactive rather than proactive. How much of the Irish railway network would survive today, with minimal investment since 1997?

2. How many railways would survive in Mayo, bearing in mind our current economic situation?

3. How much pressure will Iarnrod Eireann come under financially in the next few years?

4. The service to Mayo has been improved dramatically since ....

5. There are new trains in the West....

But oh no.....here we go again. The West is deprived, and wants to reopen the Ludramanbahn, or Leperbahn. Either way, the first means idiotic, and the second means disease. And thats what the northern section of the WRC represents to the future development of rail transport in Ireland.

Fair enough for Ennis to Athenry, which should never have closed, but the powers that be in CIE never had the foresight to divert the old Limerick to Ballina service, and make it into a Cork to Galway train instead, which MIGHT have worked.

Meanwhile

How long did the dirty ould Dubs have to wait?

Hmm.....lets see.

Dublin suburban electrification, first proposed by the D&SER in 1918. Finally implemented in...........1984
Luas. Luas is in fact, a poor mans DART. Take a look at the Voorhees plans of 1974. Coincidentally, they got delayed by a recession in the 1970's. Another recession in the 1980's. And if they get delayed again, lets just say Dubs would be quite entitled to be browned off. Particularly when the likes of Mayo keep voting in Cabbage headed gombeens such as Padraig Flynn, and his daughter. Particularly when there is this idea that Foynes should be linked to the rail network, as if it was some sort of Western Irish Singapore or Hong Kong in terms of traffic. Or, Knock International Airport, a laughable concept, and it still is, logic dictates it should have been built in Sligo, but somehow....logic does not exist in the West.

Not only the West, lets have a look at another place that did'nt get its due.

Cork - LUTS, first proposed 1978, finally implemented 2009, 2010, 2011....whenever

I could go on. But then it will be called an "anti western rant", or an "Anti railway rant", and having said nothing for around a year on the issue, since I have better things to do, I think I have done more than enough to prove otherwise.

Meanwhile, in the depths of this recession, let us bear in mind in the era of the Playstation, the Internet, etc that this is no Great famine. NOONE WILL STARVE IN IRELAND.

Repeat.

And be glad of that.

But in the West, the old spectre of Famine never went away. And thats why the begging bowls are out, tax evasion, nod and wink, and skullduggery, cutehoorism are in.

Victor

dermo88 wrote: »

NOONE WILL STARVE IN IRELAND.

Won't somebody think of the Noone family.

Tech3

Nostradamus wrote: »

Mayo is covered from one end of the county to other is quality modern roads.

Now you are incorrect here, Im not from the west but I can tell you Mayo is not covered by quality roads. Now pick out one of these you consider a "modern road": N59,N83 and N84. These roads cover at least 60% of the Mayo road network.

Tech3

Victor wrote: »

Does it? Do you mean things like the M7 and M8 in Laois and Tipperary? Or the state funding for regional airports (with Dublin Airport told to fund itself from borrowings). Or the new intercity trains?

While things like the M50 might be built in Dublin, it serves a lot more than just Dublin - how do you think Mayo exporters get their products to UK markets?

Yes but the road serves commuters to Dublin initially. What about the M17 and the M20 not being constructed over the M3?

murphaph

Greater Dublin has probably the smallest number of miles of national route per head of population in Ireland! These roads don't 'serve' Dublin, they generally serve where the go to. Dublin is served to some degree by them (some food products mainly) but they really exist to get goods from the west etc. to our main port which thanks to the oul Vikings havin common sense is slap bang in the middle of the east coast, nearest to Britain. If we made our main port in say, Mayo, goods would take an extra 2 days to get in and out.

Tech3

SeanW wrote: »

If the West isn't getting a fair deal (which I seriously doubt after listening to the Shannon whingers brigade for a long time) then you might as well build something that Western people are going to use - like the M17.

I would rather have seen the M17 being built before the wrc tbh.

But rail links are also needed to connect medium urban centres such as Limerick, Galway and Sligo. I would agree that the Sligo-Galway line wont attract as many commuters as the Galway-Ennis-Limerick line but I still feel it is needed in my opinion as an alternative to the bus service for public transport in the area.

Tech3

murphaph wrote: »

Greater Dublin has probably the smallest number of miles of national route per head of population in Ireland! These roads don't 'serve' Dublin, they generally serve where the go to. Dublin is served to some degree by them (some food products mainly) but they really exist to get goods from the west etc. to our main port which thanks to the oul Vikings havin common sense is slap bang in the middle of the east coast, nearest to Britain. If we made our main port in say, Mayo, goods would take an extra 2 days to get in and out.

Yes they primarily serve the people who commute to Dublin every day and quick access to the main ports.

murphaph

tech2 wrote: »

Yes they primarily serve the people who commute to Dublin every day and quick access to the main ports.

Tens of thousands of commuters pouring into Dublin does not 'serve' Dublin at all though. It's a hindrance to the effective functioning of the city. Dublin needs high quality commuter rail to get these people off the roads and free up roadspace for goods from Dublin and the regions to have a clear path to Dublin Port.

bk

tech2 wrote: »

So is it fair then to say the west shouldnt pay for the motorways built at the east of the country.

Sounds good to me, so the people of the west pay for only their infrastructure, while the people of the east only pay for their own.

Of course the net effect would be an increase in expenditure on infrastructure in the east, while a decrease in expenditure on the west, as how it currently works 100% of your tax stays in the west and is invested in the west, while a certain percentage of my tax leaves the east and gets invested in the west.

As a Corkonian living in Dublin, your above proposal sounds completely fair and equitable to me

Not really, personally I don't mind some of my tax being spent on other parts of the country for nationally important projects like the Major Interurban Motorways, Atlantic Road Corridor, etc. even if I never use them myself. I just hate seeing it being wasted on completely wasteful and unnecessary, ego driven projects like WRC and Knock Airport.

invincibleirish

tech2 wrote: »

But rail links are also needed to connect medium urban centres such as Limerick, Galway and Sligo. I would agree that the Sligo-Galway line wont attract as many commuters as the Galway-Ennis-Limerick line but I still feel it is needed in my opinion as an alternative to the bus service for public transport in the area.

What are you basing this opinion that i've highlighted on? Why is a rail alternative needed?

Limerick-Galway-Sligo are not medium urban centres, they are towns/very small cities.

bk

The idea of this bond sounds great to me, as long as it was transparently managed and the money was guaranteed to only be spent on certain, pre identified projects like Metro North, Dart Underground, ARC, etc. and not on rubbish like the WRC.

The bond could even be marketed as a green bond if the majority of investment was on public transport projects like MN and DU. I would imagine that it would be very popular then, even amongst the ordinary people of Ireland.

Back a few months ago, the Congress of Trade Unions were floating the idea of a national bond and I thought it was a crazy idea, who would invest in a bond who's whole purpose seemed to be to just pay for public servants salary and pensions.

But the idea of a good infrastructure bond, where worst case scenario I end up with infrastructure that I and my children will end up benefiting from, which may help the environment and where I'll even make a few bob on, sounds great.

We should have been doing this for years, rather then NTR making a fortune on M50 tolls, it could have been paid for by the ordinary people of Ireland, who could have made a nice return while knowing that some of the toll you are paying will be paid back to you.

Something like this could have helped the ordinary people of Ireland benefit more from the celtic tiger years, rather then all the money going to the builders and the likes of NTR.

They could even potentially sell such a bond at a slightly lower rate then national bonds, if they sold it direct to the people of Ireland, through a SSIA type scheme, where they promote it's patriotic and green credentials, brilliant idea.

Sponge Bob

Float 2 bonds so , a green and a not so green one

But we have to have absolute certainty on the core projects each bond will finance .

I somehow cannot see the Dubs paying up for a green bond used to extend the WRC to Derry ....as proposed by some .

I can see a roads bond getting sold if it contains the Tuam - Cork road AND the DOOR from the M7/M9 to Drogheda ....both .

But Handing €2bn to Noel Dempsey with no clarity on its ultimate use ????.

That will assuredly fail and may even affect general government debt issuance .

Bards

bk wrote: »

But the idea of a good infrastructure bond, where worst case scenario I end up with infrastructure that I and my children will end up benefiting from, which may help the environment and where I'll even make a few bob on, sounds great.

We should have been doing this for years, rather then NTR making a fortune on M50 tolls, it could have been paid for by the ordinary people of Ireland, who could have made a nice return while knowing that some of the toll you are paying will be paid back to you.

Something like this could have helped the ordinary people of Ireland benefit more from the celtic tiger years, rather then all the money going to the builders and the likes of NTR.

They could even potentially sell such a bond at a slightly lower rate then national bonds, if they sold it direct to the people of Ireland, through a SSIA type scheme, where they promote it's patriotic and green credentials, brilliant idea.

more or less what I said in post #3

Tech3

invincibleirish wrote: »

What are you basing this opinion that i've highlighted on? Why is a rail alternative needed?

Limerick-Galway-Sligo are not medium urban centres, they are towns/very small cities.

Limerick and Galway are the 3rd and 4th largest cities in Ireland. You think there is no need for a rail line between 2 cities?

There is an over reliance on the slow bus service. It takes 5 hours to get a bus from Sligo- Limerick. That is totally unacceptable. With a rail link this will reduce travel times significantly. I support every project being done in the country yet some people have to disagree on the WRC.

However if I was to pick between the M17 and WRC phase 2 being done I would pick the M17 any day of the week.

Tech3

murphaph wrote: »

Tens of thousands of commuters pouring into Dublin does not 'serve' Dublin at all though. It's a hindrance to the effective functioning of the city. Dublin needs high quality commuter rail to get these people off the roads and free up roadspace for goods from Dublin and the regions to have a clear path to Dublin Port.

The problem is however some people travel up to 200km outside of the city to work in Dublin. So would you suggest a rail line following all the motorways out of the city?

Tech3

bk wrote: »

Sounds good to me, so the people of the west pay for only their infrastructure, while the people of the east only pay for their own.

Of course the net effect would be an increase in expenditure on infrastructure in the east, while a decrease in expenditure on the west, as how it currently works 100% of your tax stays in the west and is invested in the west, while a certain percentage of my tax leaves the east and gets invested in the west.

As a Corkonian living in Dublin, your above proposal sounds completely fair and equitable to me

Not really, personally I don't mind some of my tax being spent on other parts of the country for nationally important projects like the Major Interurban Motorways, Atlantic Road Corridor, etc. even if I never use them myself. I just hate seeing it being wasted on completely wasteful and unnecessary, ego driven projects like WRC and Knock Airport.

I pay a high level of tax and even though I will never use the WRC I will be happy to pay for part of it.

Im not living in the west but I do think its badly needed. It should relieve some heavy congestion in Galway City also. Im looking at this going forward. The area around the west is expected to get more populated in the next 10 years and having infrastrucutre like this in place is what is needed to provide people with the public service they deserve.

Gruffalo

Nostradamus wrote: »

You will find there are several posters on this board living in the West who are not fans of this idiotic rail corridor either. Maybe you and Guffalo can form a focus group and prove the case for the WRC. I am sure it'll be completely objective and within the bounds of sensible transport ecomomics and without a hint of victim complexes nor an overblown sense of personal entitlement.

No victim complexes here Nostradamus, as I have regularly pointed out, I am not from the West, nor am I a trainspotter.

I was just pointing out that you always seem to pick on the one project that is in the West. This given the fact that it is the cheapest of the rail projects. Perhaps you could be even in your criticism.

I'd be happy for them to bus the remainder of the route for the time being and let them build up a bigger population base in the meantime.

Gruffalo

Nostradamus wrote: »

They only reason people like you want the WRC is because you will be forcing tax payers in Dublin, Leinster and Cork to pay for it. No other reason.

You dumb moron, I have said on more than one occassion where I am from. My username tells you where I am from i.e. Grumpy Rude Uncensored Fvcker From Around Laois Offaly i.e. I am from Leinster. So your "no other reason" is clearly as dumb as you, you silly little sausage! Think before you lash out with you incoherent babble.

Seeing as you clearly refuse to acknowledge my position on the WRC, I will repeat it. I think it should be built over time. No great rush.

Gruffalo

dermo88 wrote: »

I'd be all in favour of a major infrastructure bond, if it were'nt for the people in charge of implementing it.

murphaph and nostradamus have it summed up. Meanwhile tech2 and gruffalo, I will ask some questions.

Lets take an alternate scenario:

Lets assume that there never was a derailment in Knockcroghery in 1997. Lets then ask some relevant questions based on that?

1. Knowing the Irish Govt, their policies are reactive rather than proactive. How much of the Irish railway network would survive today, with minimal investment since 1997?

2. How many railways would survive in Mayo, bearing in mind our current economic situation?

3. How much pressure will Iarnrod Eireann come under financially in the next few years?

4. The service to Mayo has been improved dramatically since ....

5. There are new trains in the West....

But oh no.....here we go again. The West is deprived, and wants to reopen the Ludramanbahn, or Leperbahn. Either way, the first means idiotic, and the second means disease. And thats what the northern section of the WRC represents to the future development of rail transport in Ireland.

Fair enough for Ennis to Athenry, which should never have closed, but the powers that be in CIE never had the foresight to divert the old Limerick to Ballina service, and make it into a Cork to Galway train instead, which MIGHT have worked.

Meanwhile

How long did the dirty ould Dubs have to wait?

Hmm.....lets see.

Dublin suburban electrification, first proposed by the D&SER in 1918. Finally implemented in...........1984
Luas. Luas is in fact, a poor mans DART. Take a look at the Voorhees plans of 1974. Coincidentally, they got delayed by a recession in the 1970's. Another recession in the 1980's. And if they get delayed again, lets just say Dubs would be quite entitled to be browned off. Particularly when the likes of Mayo keep voting in Cabbage headed gombeens such as Padraig Flynn, and his daughter. Particularly when there is this idea that Foynes should be linked to the rail network, as if it was some sort of Western Irish Singapore or Hong Kong in terms of traffic. Or, Knock International Airport, a laughable concept, and it still is, logic dictates it should have been built in Sligo, but somehow....logic does not exist in the West.

Not only the West, lets have a look at another place that did'nt get its due.

Cork - LUTS, first proposed 1978, finally implemented 2009, 2010, 2011....whenever

I could go on. But then it will be called an "anti western rant", or an "Anti railway rant", and having said nothing for around a year on the issue, since I have better things to do, I think I have done more than enough to prove otherwise.

Meanwhile, in the depths of this recession, let us bear in mind in the era of the Playstation, the Internet, etc that this is no Great famine. NOONE WILL STARVE IN IRELAND.

Repeat.

And be glad of that.

But in the West, the old spectre of Famine never went away. And thats why the begging bowls are out, tax evasion, nod and wink, and skullduggery, cutehoorism are in.

Oh stop it, you are making my eyes water.

Did you even read my post. It appears that none of you have but it has not stopped you claiming that I am playing the old victim card.

What I asked Nostradamus was, would his rule apply to all projects. If so, I have nothing against it. But it should not be a case of the West paying towards its transport and the East not, or the other way around. If you want to read the WRC thread you will see that I have called for a clearer more transparent procedure to determine where infrastructure should go.

In my earlier post on this thread I said that I think all local councils should pay for the stations. This would incentivise them to populate towns and adjust their planning procedures accordingly etc.

Please stop attributing positions to me. I have clearly stated mine.

murphaph

Gruffalo wrote: »

I think all local councils should pay for the stations. This would incentivise them to populate towns and adjust their planning procedures accordingly etc.

this is already the case in dublin.

Sponge Bob

I thought that the councils in Dublin forced developers to build them . eg Grange road and Adamstown .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:North_west_dart_planned.png

murphaph

Same thing really. The local residents end up paying in the examples you provided because the cost is passed on to the purchaser. If you are building your own home or extending a commercial premises etc. you must pay development levies directly to the council if you are within the corridor. I don't mind the idea in principle, but paying a levy for metro West when it's unlikely to be built for many many years seems somewhat unfair. Perhaps they should refund people if no construction has started after say 5 years of paying your development levy.

Nostradamus

Gruffalo wrote: »

No victim complexes here Nostradamus, as I have regularly pointed out, I am not from the West, nor am I a trainspotter.

I was just pointing out that you always seem to pick on the one project that is in the West.

The thing is I do not PICK on the WRC, I only point out the sheer insanity of it. That's because I care about my country and I want it to have good railways logical to the sevices requirments in each area. In other areas a good bus services would be better.

What's wrong with that? How is that a rant? How is that anti West of Ireland? Tell me were I am going wrong?

I see myself as an Irishman first and everything else second. This is a concept utterly foreign to the backers of the WRC. They have no notion of Ireland the nation, only Mayo the county. Which would be fine if they were paying for it, but they are not.

dermo88 was spot on when he said Limerick to Athenry should of never been closed. I am somewhat glad to see that reopening, but... sadly they (goverment) made a total arse of it and just reinstanted the original victorian track layout at Athenry. The end result is that the rail line will be much slower than the bus.

How is this progress? How is that a public transport leap forward?

I live about 200 yards from the Sligo end of this project. The rail line is manky, the thing was originally built to a shocking level of engeineering. Hardly more than a tramway. It's twists and truns and winds and goes right through many people front gardens right in front of their front doors.

Are they to be ethnically cleasend from their homes? Has WestonTrack informed them this is a real possiblity? Will Irish Railway News managers fly over from London to knock on these peoples doors and tell them to move so they can spot timber trains? How does this tie in with their "people of the West!!!!" mantra? The people who live in these houses are from the West and there are to be transplanted to open a rail line no one will use as it'll be useless. There are 90, count them 90 level crossings between Tuam and Sligo which would have to be automated at the cost of 900,000 each. For what? A 40mph rattler with a couple of grannies on free travel passes along with some over-excited anorak scribbling in his jotter?

Add to that I see the people coming on and off the Sligo to Galway bus and it is never more than a handful and will always be cheaper and quicker than reopening the rail line. It is a decent bus service too. Flies along the new roads through Mayo, is amazing value and the buses are really nice. The service could be more frequent, but it'll still be better than any rail service on the norther WRC?

Whose head is up whose backside here when it comes to the "essential demand" for the WRC north of Athenry?

My opinions has nothing to do with any agenda I have against the West. I live here, I made my home here, I invested in the region because I beleive in it, I work for several community groups and organisation. I can tell you for an absolute fact that the nothern half of the Western Rail Corridor has no future.

From a railway development aspect, it will be an incredibly dangerous thing to reopen. West on Track and their instinctual cheerleaders in Irish Railway News are lost in cloud coo-koo land, have raging self-absorbed egos and seem to think that money just falls from the sky while the wind is blowing from the East. If you take away the victim complexes/trainspotter fantasies you are left with nothing to justify a single inch of track being reopened between Athenry and Sligo.

That's the truth, you can chose to beleive me or not. Imply I have a hatred of people West of the Shannon, or you can deal with the reality of just how potentially destructive this rail line will be for the future of ALL future rail investment in Ireland.

Our national rail transport development cannot be decided upon by signatures taken in the post office in Claremorris from people who have no intention of using the WRC.

Bottom line; If you are pro Rail Transport in Ireland, then you have to be anti- Western Rail Corridor.

Amtmann

An update on this in today's (Monday's) paper:

TOMORROW’S BUDGET may include a plan for a new scheme whereby pension funds would invest in infrastructure projects in Ireland such as roads, schools and hospitals, with a guaranteed rate of return from the State.

“There’s a proposition on the table which looks quite attractive,” a senior political source told The Irish Times.

Legal technicalities still remained to be clarified last night but the idea is seen as one that could be of mutual benefit to investors looking for steady rates of return and a Government that has run short of funds.

The bond scheme would be expected to draw in €1 billion-€3 billion to substitute for capital spending from State funds.

The money would be a possible source of funding for Minister for Health and Children Mary Harney to set up the long-sought cystic fibrosis unit at St Vincent’s Hospital, Dublin.

Describing the plan as a larger-scale equivalent of the special savings investment account (SSIA) scheme of recent years, political sources said there would be a “very solid return” for investors.

However, senior sources also cautioned that the proposed bond was not the “silver bullet” which would solve all funding problems.

The proposal was initially put forward by the Construction Industry Council, which pointed out that more than 80 per cent of Irish pension funds are currently invested outside the State. ...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0406/1224244067974.html

mysterious

God would they just get a move on with it:rolleyes:

The most pressing scheme should be M20(Adare-bypass) north scheme and M18 to Tuam first.

Adare can't wait more than two years. The summer time is horrendos in Adare. Think Of all traffic from the West, Midwest, East, heading to Kerry and the Southwest through this village. It's kind of embarressing to have DC traffic going through a picturesque village in this day and age. In summer it rises to 20,000 a day.

This could be further misleading though alot of traffic avoid Adare and rat run around it, to avoid the long queus coming off the DC further North.

Also I noticed the counter for the Croom bypass is rsing very rapidly. it's apporaching 15,000. While the Adare section is decreasing due to traffic avoiding Adare I'd say. This is like Kildare and Enfield back in the day.

The N4 used to have high growth at Kinnegad and Kilcock. But the closest counter near Enfiled would of been slightly less and never increase much. The road would be at peak capacity and lenghty queues would be throughout. So alot of traffic would defer at that particular counter. You can see from The Adare counter there were sharp rises in the past. Now it's almost static. Yet populations are booming along the N21. Just giving you idea how bad Adare is getting in real terms. It needs to be bypassed.

The only reason Adare doesn't get much heated debate, is because it's a very small village, and there isn't much blockages to hinder traffic through the town. It's the sheer volume that funnells into it that causes the queues. This reminds me of enfiled back in the day.

Victor

bk wrote: »

They could even potentially sell such a bond at a slightly lower rate then national bonds, if they sold it direct to the people of Ireland, through a SSIA type scheme, where they promote it's patriotic and green credentials, brilliant idea.

You don't understand bonds, do you? The market will let you know what rate it will pay, you can't control rate other than by controlling supply.

DWCommuter

murphaph wrote: »

Recover to what level? Our manufacturing base has been eroding for 8 years but it was masked by everyone frantically buying and selling property at inflated prices. That tax source is now gone and it will not return to those levels. If we don't either slash our standard of living (thereby reducing the cost of labour) or come up with products/services that the rest of the world wants but can't make, then we're not going to see any recovery.

Hammer, nail, head.

People forget that our boom was a one trick pony. Ireland is in bigger trouble than many of you realise.