Jonny Wilkinson is back.

Stev_o

The guy got England to a RWC final 2 years ago with a completely screwed up ankle. When push came to shove he delivered for them (yes not to the levels of 2003 but high enough none the less). Hopefully, like BOD he can over come his injuries and give some performances that are well and truly dew.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

He was the difference though. In the same way that we'd never have won the GS without O'Driscoll, it was Wilkinson that made the difference.

I said if he was fully fit and showed form.
I'd have actually made the comparison with O'Driscoll, his tries (and that drop goal) were what earned us the Grand Slam. He was the difference.

What is your criteria - Peter Stringer's try was fairly important against Scotland. If ROG didn't make the last conversion in the England game, that could have been the difference. Why BOD's try & DG are so remarked on is because it was a typical try for a backrower. I've no doubt David Wallace, Jamie Heaslip or someone else would have got that try a few seconds later. The Drop Goal was the same - it was an OH's points! You come across as having a bit of man-love for Jonny & BOD

And he's played for Newcastle a bit this season, they play under the ELVs right?

According to website he has played 4 times this season! Just checked to see if it was upd-dated and someone else had played 22 games.

It's easy to get carried away with Wilkinson, but he's the best out-half I've ever seen play, but then I'm not really old enough to have paid attention to anyone before 2000 or so...

Before you get too carried away ... if he is so wonderful, (a) how come Newcastle don't do too well (I know he rarely plays - which is another story!)
(b) how come Ireland have beaten them every time (bar when Cipriani since 2003) - can't remember if he played them all, but he started the Ireland v England game in 2007 in Croke Park.

btw, I'm arguing that rugby is a team sport - and the reason England won the world cup was because England had a world class team.

Stev_o

thehighground wrote: »

, (a) how come Newcastle don't do too well (I know he rarely plays - which is another story!)
(b) how come Ireland have beaten them every time (bar when Cipriani since 2003) - can't remember if he played them all, but he started the Ireland v England game in 2007 in Croke Park.

Because Newcastle aren't a huge team, they don't have quality players. Name some of the star Newcastle backs or forwards and you ll draw up very little names bar Burke and now Heymans who is only now delivering. They are a limited side and it's only now that they'v said "f*ck it im sick of loosing lets just stop with this whole pre programmed method of playing and just go out and play" and it has resulted them getting results.

He didn't play against us in 2004,2005,2006. Only 2001 and 2007 which makes the argument a bit flawed.

thehighground

Stev_o wrote: »

Because Newcastle aren't a huge team, they don't have quality players. Name some of the star Newcastle backs or forwards and you ll draw up very little names bar Burke and now Heymans who is only now delivering. They are a limited side and it's only now that they'v said "f*ck it im sick of loosing lets just stop with this whole pre programmed method of playing and just go out and play" and it has resulted them getting results.

He didn't play against us in 2004,2005,2006. Only 2001 and 2007 which makes the argument a bit flawed.

It doesn't make my argument flawed. The score (with Jonny as OH) was 43-13 to Ireland - Did Jonny or the England team lose that one :rolleyes:

ScholesyIsGod

He played in 2003 when England battered us and won the Grand Slam and he put on an absolute master class

Stev_o

thehighground wrote: »

It doesn't make my argument flawed. The score (with Jonny as OH) was 43-13 to Ireland - Did Jonny or the England team lose that one :rolleyes:

2000
England 50–18 Ireland
Try Cohen 2, Tindall, Healey 2, Back
Con Wilkinson 4
Pen Wilkinson 4

2002
England 45 – 11 Ireland
Tries: Greenwood (2)
Wilkinson
Cohen
Worsley
Kay
Con: Wilkinson (6)
Pen: Wilkinson

2003
England 42 -Ireland 6
Tries: Greenwood (2)
Dallaglio
Tindall
Luger
Con: Wilkinson (3)
Grayson
Pen: Wilkinson
Drop: Wilkinson (2)

So how bout those then?

thehighground

ScholesyIsGod wrote: »

He played in 2003 when England battered us and won the Grand Slam and he put on an absolute master class

After 3 goes, that England team won the GS. Johnson, Dallaglio, Hill, Robinson, etc. etc. They were all world class. The toughest game that Munster had last year for the Heineken Cup was against Saracens - and Richard Hill was most of the problem - that's how good that England team were. Wasps (Dallaglio) another team over that period, not to mention a rake of that England team were at Leicester who just won all round them over the last couple of years.

Most people attribute England's success to Johnson's leadership, although I think there were a fair few leaders in that group.

ScholesyIsGod

thehighground wrote: »

After 3 goes, that England team won the GS. Johnson, Dallaglio, Hill, Robinson, etc. etc. They were all world class. The toughest game that Munster had last year for the Heineken Cup was against Saracens - and Richard Hill was most of the problem - that's how good that England team were. Wasps (Dallaglio) another team over that period, not to mention a rake of that England team were at Leicester who just won all round them over the last couple of years.

Most people attribute England's success to Johnson's leadership, although I think there were a fair few leaders in that group.

That was meant as a reply to Stev_o when he said Wilkinson only played in 2001 and 2007

ScholesyIsGod

Stev_o wrote: »

2000
England 50–18 Ireland
Try Cohen 2, Tindall, Healey 2, Back
Con Wilkinson 4
Pen Wilkinson 4

2002
England 45 – 11 Ireland
Tries: Greenwood (2)
Wilkinson
Cohen
Worsley
Kay
Con: Wilkinson (6)
Pen: Wilkinson

2003
England 42 -Ireland 6
Tries: Greenwood (2)
Dallaglio
Tindall
Luger
Con: Wilkinson (3)
Grayson
Pen: Wilkinson
Drop: Wilkinson (2)

So how bout those then?

The fact that we lost all those games by more then 30 points shows that anybody could have played out half on those occasions and we still would have lost.

Stev_o

ScholesyIsGod wrote: »

That was meant as a reply to Stev_o when he said Wilkinson only played in 2001 and 2007

No no no im saying he played in those two matches that we won and he lost while starting OH which is the argument Highground is trying to make. While iv pointed out he's start 2003,2002,2000 i think he played in 1999 at centre but can't find the stats im afraid.

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

What is your criteria - Peter Stringer's try was fairly important against Scotland. If ROG didn't make the last conversion in the England game, that could have been the difference. Why BOD's try & DG are so remarked on is because it was a typical try for a backrower. I've no doubt David Wallace, Jamie Heaslip or someone else would have got that try a few seconds later. The Drop Goal was the same - it was an OH's points! You come across as having a bit of man-love for Jonny & BOD

Bod? Dear Lord, no. He;s got a wonky nose. As for Johnny, nah, bit old. :pac:

But seriously the difference between Ireland winning and losing the Grand Slam was O'Driscoll, the try against Wales, against England, the interception against England when they had a 3 or 4 man overlap, etc.

According to website he has played 4 times this season! Just checked to see if it was upd-dated and someone else had played 22 games.


Before you get too carried away ... if he is so wonderful, (a) how come Newcastle don't do too well (I know he rarely plays - which is another story!)
(b) how come Ireland have beaten them every time (bar when Cipriani since 2003) - can't remember if he played them all, but he started the Ireland v England game in 2007 in Croke Park.

btw, I'm arguing that rugby is a team sport - and the reason England won the world cup was because England had a world class team.

Rugby is a team sport, but a talented individual stands out. Munster have had very few outstanding individuals over the past few years, Leinster have actually had a couple and done significantly worse, so team is clearly crucial in rugby.

Look at New Zealand, Carter and Carlos Spencer are and were clearly capable of winning games for New Zealand they might otherwise have lost.

Take our England game as an example - if O'Driscoll hadn't scored, would England have kept us out and cost us the slam? What if Wilkinson hadn't kicked an average of 16 points for England at their peak?

I want us to win the Lions tour. I really, really, really do. And I don't think O'Gara or Jones is better than Wilkinson at his peak. I don't think they're that bad, I just think his kicking is more accurate, and he's a bit more physical, and while O'Gara rarely if ever gets beaten, do you want Spies or Kankowski with Burger in support rampaging down that channel constantly?

Again, it's all pie in the sky stuff, but with Wilkinson as an English player once said, you start off with a 16 point advantage in the game, given the extra distance the ball will travel in 2 of the tests, that could be crucial...

ScholesyIsGod

Wilkinson will not be worth 16 points if he goes on the Lions tour, that was 6 years ago and he had an unbelievable pack in front of him.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Bod? Dear Lord, no. He;s got a wonky nose. As for Johnny, nah, bit old. :pac:

But seriously the difference between Ireland winning and losing the Grand Slam was O'Driscoll, the try against Wales, against England, the interception against England when they had a 3 or 4 man overlap, etc.



Rugby is a team sport, but a talented individual stands out. Munster have had very few outstanding individuals over the past few years, Leinster have actually had a couple and done significantly worse, so team is clearly crucial in rugby.

Look at New Zealand, Carter and Carlos Spencer are and were clearly capable of winning games for New Zealand they might otherwise have lost.

Take our England game as an example - if O'Driscoll hadn't scored, would England have kept us out and cost us the slam? What if Wilkinson hadn't kicked an average of 16 points for England at their peak?

I want us to win the Lions tour. I really, really, really do. And I don't think O'Gara or Jones is better than Wilkinson at his peak. I don't think they're that bad, I just think his kicking is more accurate, and he's a bit more physical, and while O'Gara rarely if ever gets beaten, do you want Spies or Kankowski with Burger in support rampaging down that channel constantly?

Again, it's all pie in the sky stuff, but with Wilkinson as an English player once said, you start off with a 16 point advantage in the game, given the extra distance the ball will travel in 2 of the tests, that could be crucial...

OK - lets cut to the chase - I believe forwards win games (sorry for the cliche) you obviously think backs do.

I have a funny feeling that the ABs would miss Richie McCaw more than they would miss Dan Carter.

I think the ELVs would make it very difficult for Jonny to kick the penalties. Wales won a huge amount of penalties against Ireland, but they were mostly in Wales' half. Not even Jonny would have been able to kick them.

Another thing on fitness - when Uncle Deccie took over the job as Ireland coach, he said that talking to coaches in Aus & NZ, they all said that your fitness level had to be really up their as there were not as many little breaks etc. to get a breather. I don't know if anyone saw Mike McGurn's interview in the IT (used to be Irish fitness coach, now the Osprey's coach) and he mentioned that the major difference between Ireland and Wales was that the Irish lads were a lot fitter than the Welsh lads. Now, how is Jonny going to deal with the High Veldt?

stephen_n

thehighground wrote: »

OK - lets cut to the chase - I believe forwards win games (sorry for the cliche) you obviously think backs do.

I have a funny feeling that the ABs would miss Richie McCaw more than they would miss Dan Carter.

I think the ELVs would make it very difficult for Jonny to kick the penalties. Wales won a huge amount of penalties against Ireland, but they were mostly in Wales' half. Not even Jonny would have been able to kick them.

Another thing on fitness - when Uncle Deccie took over the job as Ireland coach, he said that talking to coaches in Aus & NZ, they all said that your fitness level had to be really up their as there were not as many little breaks etc. to get a breather. I don't know if anyone saw Mike McGurn's interview in the IT (used to be Irish fitness coach, now the Osprey's coach) and he mentioned that the major difference between Ireland and Wales was that the Irish lads were a lot fitter than the Welsh lads. Now, how is Jonny going to deal with the High Veldt?

Forwards win ball backs win games, i.e. as you first said it's a team game and you could have the best forwards in the world put them with a bad backline and bad OH and they will loose. It's like the Argument that O'Gara won the game against Wales with his DG, which clearly wasn't the case because we didn't win three nil and in anyway it took an immense effort by the forwards to win the restart and get us in position to do it but I really doubt one of our forwards would have got the DG to finish it off therefore team sport!

Having said all that I do believe that if you took Wilkinson and Johnston out of the 2003 team i don't think England would have won it even with all the other great forwards they had. No more than we would have won this GS without BOD and POC so in that way the top players do affect a team performance!

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

OK - lets cut to the chase - I believe forwards win games (sorry for the cliche) you obviously think backs do.

I have a funny feeling that the ABs would miss Richie McCaw more than they would miss Dan Carter.

I think the ELVs would make it very difficult for Jonny to kick the penalties. Wales won a huge amount of penalties against Ireland, but they were mostly in Wales' half. Not even Jonny would have been able to kick them.

Another thing on fitness - when Uncle Deccie took over the job as Ireland coach, he said that talking to coaches in Aus & NZ, they all said that your fitness level had to be really up their as there were not as many little breaks etc. to get a breather. I don't know if anyone saw Mike McGurn's interview in the IT (used to be Irish fitness coach, now the Osprey's coach) and he mentioned that the major difference between Ireland and Wales was that the Irish lads were a lot fitter than the Welsh lads. Now, how is Jonny going to deal with the High Veldt?

Fúck off with the backs, I was a forward once upon a time. :pac:

McCaw might be more important, but Carter scores the points, and takes the chances if you get me.

Fitness will be crucial, we've been miles ahead of everyone else lately, no doubts there.

ScholesyIsGod

To be a successful side you need a good pack AND a good set of backs.

But when it comes down to it a good forward pack is more important then a good set of backs, if you have the best backline in the world and a rubbish pack that cant secure the ball or get on the front foot and make some hard yards then the backline will never see the ball to do anything with it.

anonymous_joe

ScholesyIsGod wrote: »

To be a successful side you need a good pack AND a good set of backs.

But when it comes down to it a good forward pack is more important then a good set of backs, if you have the best backline in the world and a rubbish pack that cant secure the ball or get on the front foot and make some hard yards then the backline will never see the ball to do anything with it.

Check out the Canes back line. Then their pack. ><

(Or it might be the chiefs, it's one of those two. :pac:)

Chucky the tree

I dont see the point is arguing over Jonny, ROG and Stehphen jones. If Wilkinson is fit do people and has played a few games for newcastle and done well do people think Cipraini or Hook should of been taken ahead of him? To be honest from what I have seen Jonny might have a tough time getting picked ahead of tom May if Newcastle keep on trucking like they are.