Commentary on "Last Man Standing"!

JimiTime

Bduffman wrote: »

For what its worth, I think the idea of one on one debates is great. In the case of this one its just silly. One person should not have the burden of proof. Why can't both simply give their opinions on why they think their view is correct? Neither side is going to be able to provide proof, yet it will look like PDN wins as all he has to do is provide just enough doubt.
Thats something a primary school student could do never mind a leaving cert student.

Well, it may teach Dumbledore to be a little less enthusiatic with the 'facts' he 'knows'. There can only be one 'winner' in this, and that is Dumbledore, for he will be the one who may learn something. Hopefully, in debating with PDN, he'll learn that Christians are not just prostrated Yes men who are simply deluded fools of an age old conspiracy. At the moment, he seems to be fresh out of atheist propaganda school. It would be nice to see him gain some respect, even if he stays in disagreement.

JimiTime

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

It's really meant more as a forewarning for Dumbledore.

Don't you think him left to it to 'possibly' embarass himself will have a better outcome for him? Would that not be a valuable lesson learned? We've all been 17, and thought we knew it all. Some of us learned valuable lessons from finding out how little we actually knew. Why not forget about warning him, and let him make his own mistakes, or even surprise us all.

I've said it before, I love the stuff the Christians post in this forum. Ask yourself why.

I think you love 'certain' stuff 'certain' christians post. Once your anti-christian vitriol is met head on though, like PDN tends to do at times, I don't think you like it. Instead, you attack him like in this thread. I have seen alot more written by yourself, generalising Christians as stupid etc, than any such unprovoked abuse by PDN. I don't read everything he writes here though, so maybe I've missed them. I may be being biased, but I think your assessment is way off the mark. Thats my perception anyway, for what its worth.

Stercus Accidit

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

@Stercus Accidit

It would be nice to actually read Dumbledore's opening gambit before writing him off.

He HAS left himself, through the phrasing of the challenge, in a difficult position.

Where did I write him off?

Do me a flavor, read the post, and see what it was actually critisising.

Goduznt Xzst

JimiTime wrote: »

Don't you think him left to it to 'possibly' embarass himself will have a better outcome for him?

ah... an end justifies the means kind of guy eh. Sorry I don't agree with that. Would you let your child get on a bicycle for the first time without a helmet? I mean when they crack their skull off the pavement it will be a valuable life lesson for them don't you think :rolleyes:

JimiTime wrote: »

I think you love 'certain' stuff 'certain' christians post.

You would be correct, like this :pac: I am not questionings PDN's prose in discussions, he is quite apt at that and can portray his opinions effectively. I am questioning the methods he uses when engaged in arguments or debates, which, as I feel detract from the main topic of discussion, I'm warning Dumbledore of in advance so that he is aware of them and will not be subsequently sidetracked.

Fanny Cradock

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I've said it before, I love the stuff the Christians post in this forum. Ask yourself why.

Because you are bigoted against Christianity?

robindch

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Because you are bigoted against Christianity?

Goduznt Xzst

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Because you are bigoted against Christianity?

I prefer "actively intolerant of religious dogma"

Pompey Magnus

I'm not an expert on debating but if the Bible is shown even to be only slightly corrupted from the original texts then it cannot be fully the Word of God. This would mean that at best:

The Bible = Word of God + Intentionally Corrupted Text + Accidentally Corrupted Text + Mistranslations

which seems to me to meet the criteria Dumbledore needs to argue against as PDN put it which is:

The Bible = Word of God.

Or am I wrong?

Fanny Cradock

robindch wrote: »

Oh, please, Robin. Where did I say or imply that Christians were being oppressed? I don't believe I've ever played the oppression card - certainly not in a general 'poor us' sense. Or maybe you are simply fond of putting up unrelated charts.

JimiTime

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

ah... an end justifies the means kind of guy eh.

Not at all.

Would you let your child get on a bicycle for the first time without a helmet?

Nope.

I mean when they crack their skull off the pavement it will be a valuable life lesson for them don't you think :rolleyes:

All that Mensa subscription money for this? Your funny. If it makes sense to you though, so be it.

You would be correct, like this :pac:

Glad you liked it. What part in particular did you like?

PDN

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Oh, please, Robin. Where did I say or imply that Christians were being oppressed? I don't believe I've ever played the oppression card - certainly not in a general 'poor us' sense. Or maybe you are simply fond of putting up unrelated charts.

But you can always save the chart and use it next time we get one of those "nobody believes all that stuff anymore" threads.

PDN

Charco wrote: »

I'm not an expert on debating but if the Bible is shown even to be only slightly corrupted from the original texts then it cannot be fully the Word of God. This would mean that at best:

The Bible = Word of God + Intentionally Corrupted Text + Accidentally Corrupted Text + Mistranslations

which seems to me to meet the criteria Dumbledore needs to argue against as PDN put it which is:

The Bible = Word of God.

Or am I wrong?

You are wrong, but I'm not going to tell you why. I'll keep my powder dry for the actual debate (if it does eventually get started). Let's see if Dumbledore uses your suggestion.

JimiTime

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Oh, please, Robin. Where did I say or imply that Christians were being oppressed? I don't believe I've ever played the oppression card - certainly not in a general 'poor us' sense. Or maybe you are simply fond of putting up unrelated charts.

Its funny actually, I've seen atheists, particularly Robin push this notion that we feel that we're oppressed. Seems to be some atheist fascination with thinking that we feel oppressed. Don't think telling them we don't would do much good would it? As soon as I do feel oppressed though guys, I'll be sure to let you know so that you can confirm your pre-concieved cack handed opinions.

Rev Hellfire

What happened to all the love around here ?

JimiTime

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

What happened to all the love around here ?

There was love around here?

Goduznt Xzst

JimiTime wrote: »

Not at all. Nope.

well I'm not going to resolve your conflict of opinions for you if that's what you're looking for.

JimiTime wrote: »

All that Mensa subscription money for this? Your funny. If it makes sense to you though, so be it.

lol Although it's a misplaced barb as Mensa does not exist to educate you see. However, I can't see why you needed to make that personal remark, but I'll apologize in advance for anything I might of said that provoked it.

robindch

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Where did I say or imply that Christians were being oppressed?

Lack of time prevented me from changing "oppressed" to "bigoted against" for which sloppiness, inaccuracy and lack of effort I must sincerely apologize.

As Goduznt implies, bigotry in terms of open intolerance of people by virtue of the religious views they hold is rather less common amongst the atheist community than a fairly widespread distrust of religious nonsense independent of the person holding it.

Dades

JimiTime wrote: »

There was love around here?

Absolutely. We even love our neighbours!

Fanny Cradock

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

What happened to all the love around here ?

Goduznt and myself beat it into submission.

robindch wrote: »

Lack of time prevented me from changing "oppressed" to "bigoted against" for which sloppiness, inaccuracy and lack of effort I must sincerely apologize.

The apology is most gracious.

JimiTime

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

well I'm not going to resolve your conflict of opinions for you if that's what you're looking for.

I was just answering your questions. No, I'm not a means justify the ends thinker, and No I don't think I would let my child go on a bike with no helmet so that they can crack their head. As I said, if that analogy you gave works for 'you' though, I'm not going to argue.

lol Although it's a misplaced barb as Mensa does not exist to educate you see.

It gets accross what I was conveying though. i.e. That you think yourself as smart, while on this occassion seeming a bit, well, not so smart.

However, I can't see why you needed to make that personal remark,

I didn't 'need' to make it. I made it because I didn't want to argue with such a poor reasoned analogy, but I still wanted to highlight your poor reasoning.


BTW, you didn't tell me what you liked about the post you quoted?

JimiTime

Dades wrote: »

Absolutely. We even love our neighbours!

Really? I must have missed that. I'll be on the look out though.

Zillah

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

What happened to all the love around here ?

"Now that I'm back to normal, I don't bring you peace and love. I bring you fear, famine and pestilence"

Goduznt Xzst

JimiTime wrote: »

I didn't 'need' to make it. I made it because I didn't want to argue with such a poor reasoned analogy, but I still wanted to highlight your poor reasoning.

I was trying to avoid this but since you are pushing I will riposte.

JimiTime wrote: »

Don't you think him left to it to 'possibly' embarass himself will have a better outcome for him? Would that not be a valuable lesson learned? We've all been 17, and thought we knew it all. Some of us learned valuable lessons from finding out how little we actually knew. Why not forget about warning him, and let him make his own mistakes

JimiTime wrote: »

No, I'm not a means justify the ends thinker... As I said, if that analogy you gave works for 'you' though, I'm not going to argue.

I have highlighted the areas in your original post for your convenience. You are clearly saying that we should let Dumbledore make mistakes without warning him as he will learn a more valuable lesson this way, ergo, if he has to suffer embarrassment it is acceptable because he will learn a valuable lesson, therefore, "The end (a valuable lesson) justifies the means (a persons embarrassment)" which you have plainly stated.

JimiTime

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

You are clearly saying that we should let Dumbledore make mistakes without warning him as he will learn a more valuable lesson this way, ergo, if he has to suffer embarrassment it is acceptable because he will learn a valuable lesson, therefore, "The end (a valuable lesson) justifies the means (a persons embarrassment)" which you have plainly stated.

Ahh, but you see you accused me of being a 'means justify the ends thinker', which I'm certainly not. Such an accusation proposes that I reason that if the end is good, then the means is not important. I certainly don't think in those terms, and on this occasion my point was that this guy 'may possibly' embarass himself, or 'surprise us all'. Let him make his point, or mistakes, and learn from them. He's not at risk of injuring himself, in fact the 'embarassment' possiblility is a good thing on this occasion not a bad thing, for it is something that could help with maturity for little more than an annonymous defeat on an online debate. Or, as I said, he may surprise us all. Your preconceptions on PDN may actually hinder him, for you'll put your notions on him which may not be true, or cause him to see things which aren't there.

Popinjay

JimiTime wrote: »

Seems to be some atheist fascination with thinking that we feel oppressed. Don't think telling them we don't would do much good would it?

um...

JimiTime

Popinjay wrote: »

um...

Last time I checked, this wasn't China, Indonesia or pakistan, though if I did live there then I'm sure I would feel oppressed, likely because, em, I would be oppressed.:rolleyes:

Fanny Cradock

You know, it is possible to highlight injustices from a Christian perspective within a country that has a horribly poor human rights record and not believe that every Christian is persecuted.

Goduznt Xzst

JimiTime wrote: »

Ahh, but you see you accused me of being a 'means justify the ends thinker', which I'm certainly not.

because your argument for me to not provide any warnings was based around your assumption that the resultant experience for this poster would lead to a more valuable lesson and now "help with maturity", irregardless of... ... you know what, this is going to lead nowhere and it is a trivial point which I tried to sidestep in the first place.

I get it, you think the human experience is made up of making mistakes and learning from them, and to a degree I do also, but in a situation where you can share knowledge or opinion to avoid a person having to make a mistake I believe this should always be the most desirable option. I don't believe that everyone should have to graduate from the school of hard knocks. Regardless of how beneficial you imagine negative experiences can be for an individual in building their character or providing valuable lessons, the end result, imo, does not justify the means.

MrPudding

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I get it, you think the human experience is made up of making mistakes and learning from them, and to a degree I do also, but in a situation where you can share knowledge or opinion to avoid a person having to make a mistake I believe this should always be the most desirable option.

Please. You are arguing with a person that believes an infinitely powerful, infinity good and all knowing super sky wizard built a perfect being from dirt, built him a fcuk buddy from one of his ribs, stuck a tree in the middle of a garden and said "by the way, don't touch that," and then, when he inevitably did (which of course the sky wizard knew in advance he would... see all knowing) he damned him to mortal imperfection and fcuked every single human descended from him, they obviously don't do the whole "sharing knowledge" to avoid a person making a mistake.

MrP

fitz0

MrPudding wrote: »

Please. You are arguing with a person that believes an infinitely powerful, infinity good and all knowing super sky wizard built a perfect being from dirt, built him a fcuk buddy from one of his ribs, stuck a tree in the middle of a garden and said "by the way, don't touch that," and then, when he inevitably did (which of course the sky wizard knew in advance he would... see all knowing) he damned him to mortal imperfection and fcuked every single human descended from him, they obviously don't do the whole "sharing knowledge" to avoid a person making a mistake.

MrP

Wait a minute, having a rib removed to allow a man to gain pleasure? Didnt Michael Jackson have that done?