How would you raise the 4-6 Billion needed in 8 months

nesf · 02-04-2009 11:49PM

The Economist wrote: »

We need high-paying IT jobs, not low-paying IT jobs.

Switching to low-paying "competitive" jobs is essentially a recession in itself, not a way out of it.

Ah yeah but most of the job losses are in low tech industries. Given that not everyone can work a highly skilled, high paid job for reasons of the average person only being average, how do you plan to put them to work? Making our lattes?

Flamed Diving · 03-04-2009 09:12AM

nesf wrote: »

Ah yeah but most of the job losses are in low tech industries. Given that not everyone can work a highly skilled, high paid job for reasons of the average person only being average, how do you plan to put them to work? Making our lattes?

I don't think he was quite saying highly-skilled. But we need to move beyond simply creating jobs where people are packing boxes at Apple.

johnnyskeleton · 05-04-2009 01:08PM

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I don't think he was quite saying highly-skilled. But we need to move beyond simply creating jobs where people are packing boxes at Apple.

The big problem IMO is that we have too many chiefs and too few Indians. Our "highly skilled" workers are not as highly skilled as those in other countries, and those that are tend to emigrate to the US etc. The idea of the knowledge economy is a falsehood, because we have too many politicians, administrators etc who want to control the high tech people, but don't have a good idea of what high tech actually involves. Hence call centre jobs have been hailed as high tech, knowledge economy etc, while at the same time, doctorate level science grads have to emigrate to get even an average salary. Building up a genuinely high tech economy takes decades, and since we have been advertising ourselves as a place for cheap semi-skilled workers with tax breaks (now, only semi-skilled workers with tax breaks, and the tax breaks likely to go soon) there is little hope that multinationals will want to come over here with their high tech jobs.

Equally we give no support to start up smes.

Flamed Diving · 05-04-2009 01:33PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The big problem IMO is that we have too many chiefs and too few Indians. Our "highly skilled" workers are not as highly skilled as those in other countries, and those that are tend to emigrate to the US etc. The idea of the knowledge economy is a falsehood, because we have too many politicians, administrators etc who want to control the high tech people, but don't have a good idea of what high tech actually involves. Hence call centre jobs have been hailed as high tech, knowledge economy etc, while at the same time, doctorate level science grads have to emigrate to get even an average salary. Building up a genuinely high tech economy takes decades, and since we have been advertising ourselves as a place for cheap semi-skilled workers with tax breaks (now, only semi-skilled workers with tax breaks, and the tax breaks likely to go soon) there is little hope that multinationals will want to come over here with their high tech jobs.

Equally we give no support to start up smes.

Why are the government investing in such falsehoods?

http://www.entemp.ie/publications/science/2008/firstreportonSSTI.pdf

http://www.sciencecouncil.ie/

http://www.chiefscientificadviser.ie/cityofscience2012/

AFAIK, they even increased the amount they are investing in the last budget.

Time Magazine · 05-04-2009 02:03PM

nesf wrote: »

Ah yeah but most of the job losses are in low tech industries. Given that not everyone can work a highly skilled, high paid job for reasons of the average person only being average, how do you plan to put them to work? Making our lattes?

If we want our "knowledge economy", we're going to need more high-skilled, high-paying research-based jobs. That society is going to need in the region of 500,000-1m workers in low-paying, low-skilled "latte making" jobs. Barring demographic shifts or considerable immigration, this will mean require fewer mediocre graduates as less-skilled jobs go to nations who don't have the cost base we do.

The elephant in the room with the knowledge-economy is that it implies greater inequality. A knowledge economy is not one pumping out 50,000 Arts grads every year. Nor is it one where the majority graduate from universities that don't come near the world's Top 500. To compete with Harvard, we need to keep our best graduates and opportunity cost implies this means less resources for mediocre students. Basically, if we want to compete as a research-economy, we need to vastly increase money to Trinity and stop entertaining claims for regional universities for "spatial planning" or whatever. This is an implication of the knowledge economy that people aren't discussing.

As for what happens to those in-between, I'm not sure. However if the aim is a knowledge economy, we should stop pretending that the answer is packing boxes.

johnnyskeleton · 05-04-2009 02:58PM

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Why are the government investing in such falsehoods?

http://www.entemp.ie/publications/science/2008/firstreportonSSTI.pdf

http://www.sciencecouncil.ie/

http://www.chiefscientificadviser.ie/cityofscience2012/

AFAIK, they even increased the amount they are investing in the last budget.

Exactly what I'm talking about. They put lots of money into these quangoes which basically employ a lot of managers to oversee non existent projects and talk about how much money they are putting into research.

Meanwhile, otherwise profitable industries are closing or moving country, and science grads get their doctorate and leave for somewhere with actual high tech industries. Such is the reality of the situation as I gather from my friends who have serious qualifications in hard science jobs, and also from the various newspaper reports and threads on thepropertypin detailing same:

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15628&hilit=knowledge

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15699&hilit=knowledge

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=13049&hilit=knowledge

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1818&hilit=knowledge

The comments from the head of Google Ireland to the effect that our science grads are of a poorer quality than those from abroad says it all really. We are pumping out yellow pack science grads for call centre type jobs, while our really qualified scientists etc are sent packing. But the government is happy to call us a knowledge economy because they have quangoes that oversee large amounts of money going into these call centres and because the call centres don't actually make anything, they must be high class research.

Also, kids are discouraged from studying science etc in college because it is really hard and at the end of it there are no better employment prospects than in an unskilled job. So instead, they go into business, arts, law etc. Hence, too many chiefs and not enough indians. Too many managers and not enough workers. Too much talk about what is being done and very little actually getting done.

cavedave · 05-04-2009 09:30PM

This is going to be like throwing petrol on a nuke* but anyway. I believe it will be hard for us to move up the value chain high end research etc if
1. We have low IQ's. On average about half a standard deviation from world average. Ireland IQ average 93
2. An anti intellectual society. Anyone who ever did well at school will tell you it was a bad idea for their social lives.

2. may be related to 1. due to the flynn effect. This increase in IQ as cultural complexity increases seems to indicate IQ has a substantial cultural element.

Still if Ireland anti-intellectualism still is powerful i find it hard to believe we will become a leading light of new knowledge.

Flamed Diving · 05-04-2009 09:44PM

cavedave wrote: »

This is going to be like throwing petrol on a nuke but anyway. I believe it will be hard for us to move up the value chain high end research etc if
1. We have low IQ's. On average about half a standard deviation from world average. Ireland IQ average 93
2. An anti intellectual society. Anyone who ever did well at school will tell you it was a bad idea for their social lives.

2. may be related to 1. due to the flynn effect. This increase in IQ as cultural complexity increases seems to indicate IQ has a substantial cultural element.

Still if Ireland anti-intellectualism still is powerful i find it hard to believe we will become a leading light of new knowledge.

1) We all know that IQ is a perfect measure of intelligence. Well, the people with the highest IQ's all agree on this...

In addition, research methodology is very important when drawing such correlations. The uncritical eye may not notice, but many do:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations#Criticism

2) Anyone who ever did well at your school? I am afraid that anecdotal evidence is not sufficient for sweeping statements.

BTW, it seems those Inuit's should be investing in high-tech jobs, eh?

cavedave · 05-04-2009 10:25PM

I do not claim IQ is a perfect measure of intelligence. Or that intelligence is the only criteria needed for a successful 'knowledge based economy'. Just that it is an important factor.

True the plural of anecdote is not evidence but anecdotes. I believe anti intellectualism (and indeed anti science) is not just a school problem. Try asking for evidence on the economics forum (as you are doing) and see how annoyed many people get.

Flamed Diving · 05-04-2009 10:28PM

cavedave wrote: »

I do not claim IQ is a perfect measure of intelligence. Or that intelligence is the only criteria needed for a successful 'knowledge based economy'. Just that it is an important factor.

True the plural of anecdote is not evidence but anecdotes. I believe anti intellectualism (and indeed anti science) is not just a school problem. Try asking for evidence on the economics forum (as you are doing) and see how annoyed many people get.

Ah, nicely done.

cavedave · 05-04-2009 10:31PM

Ah no your right to always ask for evidence. finally got some.
% of irish people who believe in evolution. If you want people to be encouraged to become biochemists etc you'd want this to be high. Its not

Indicating a certain lack of knowledge base for the knowledge based economy.

and here

Flamed Diving · 05-04-2009 10:38PM

cavedave wrote: »

Ah no your right to always ask for evidence. finally got some.
% of irish people who believe in evolution. If you want people to be encouraged to become biochemists etc you'd want this to be high. Its not

Indicating a certain lack of knowledge base for the knowledge based economy.

and here

I wouldn't necessarily rush to say that people who don't 'believe' in evolution are less intelligent. I'm sure you are aware that it is far more complicated than that.

Where does the US rank in this?

cavedave · 05-04-2009 11:02PM

US is ranked second last. I do not think people who don't 'believe in evolution' are less intelligent. I would be willing to bet they are less likely to be scientists and encourage science though.

On many measure we do ok. literacy, astronomy. Anti intellectualism is a hard thing to measure. What else could be used as a measure? citations, patents and papers etc might be too far up the food chain to be a decent measure.

Who would be Irelands leading public intellectuals? Economics has a few Hobbes, MacWilliams, Lee all attempt intellectual debate. A famous public Irish chemist, physicist, computer scientist or mathematician? I cannot think of any maybe Aoibhínn Ní Shúilleabháin. Dick Warner is mildly well known. There are plenty of public intellectual writers. Whose the most famous Irish engineer? Its hard to see an economy based on people that have no obvious voice/advocates/publicisers in the society.

silverharp · 05-04-2009 11:06PM

It hasnt done those superstitious Germans any harm. and listen here mister caveman , anyone that uses an anology of "throwing petrol on a nuke" is not fit to discuss the lack of science education in Ireland:D

Flamed Diving · 05-04-2009 11:29PM

cavedave wrote: »

US is ranked second last. I do not think people who don't 'believe in evolution' are less intelligent. I would be willing to bet they are less likely to be scientists and encourage science though.

On many measure we do ok. literacy, astronomy. Anti intellectualism is a hard thing to measure. What else could be used as a measure? citations, patents and papers etc might be too far up the food chain to be a decent measure.

Who would be Irelands leading public intellectuals? Economics has a few Hobbes, MacWilliams, Lee all attempt intellectual debate. A famous public Irish chemist, physicist, computer scientist or mathematician? I cannot think of any maybe Aoibhínn Ní Shúilleabháin. Dick Warner is mildly well known. There are plenty of public intellectual writers. Whose the most famous Irish engineer? Its hard to see an economy based on people that have no obvious voice/advocates/publicisers in the society.

But the US clearly has a culture of anti-intellectualism, yet they lead the world in science/engineering.

I don't think it is fair to say that one necessarily leads to the other. Nor do I agree with the IQ country comparison.

I can't think of any country that succeeded in keeping low-skilled manufacturing jobs in their country, once they had progressed to a certain level, economically. There would appear be a common pattern throughout recent history of low-skilled manufacturing jobs moving to cheaper locations. So unless we take a massive drop in wages, I don't see how we can go back to having Dell's and Apple's return. This isn't a viable option here.

leitrim lad · 07-04-2009 01:46PM

if you noticed over the weekend korea seem to have the oppossite culture, and they also lead the world of science, blowing up things and so on ,and never mind our recession i think world war 3 is on the way, our tds say we have an open economy ,lets see how open it is when everyone starts blowing up korea,russia,china

Flamed Diving · 07-04-2009 01:49PM

leitrim lad wrote: »

if you noticed over the weekend korea seem to have the oppossite culture, and they also lead the world of science, blowing up things and so on ,and never mind our recession i think world war 3 is on the way, our tds say we have an open economy ,lets see how open it is when everyone starts blowing up korea,russia,china

Good points, well made.

Time Magazine · 07-04-2009 01:56PM

leitrim lad wrote: »

if you noticed over the weekend korea seem to have the oppossite culture, and they also lead the world of science, blowing up things and so on ,and never mind our recession i think world war 3 is on the way, our tds say we have an open economy ,lets see how open it is when everyone starts blowing up korea,russia,china

Please keep your posts on this forum relevant to the topics being discussed in future. Thanks.

thebman · 07-04-2009 01:57PM

Flamed Diving wrote: »

But the US clearly has a culture of anti-intellectualism, yet they lead the world in science/engineering.

I don't think it is fair to say that one necessarily leads to the other. Nor do I agree with the IQ country comparison.

The US imports intelligence for top level jobs in many cases. With their population it is inevitable that they will have people that will succeed despite a poor education and then you have the parents that can afford to buy a good education for their kids.

I can't think of any country that succeeded in keeping low-skilled manufacturing jobs in their country, once they had progressed to a certain level, economically. There would appear be a common pattern throughout recent history of low-skilled manufacturing jobs moving to cheaper locations. So unless we take a massive drop in wages, I don't see how we can go back to having Dell's and Apple's return. This isn't a viable option here.

True but we can't rely on the Financial services sector like so many other economies have done and they can't either. At the very least, we need industry that booms when other sections of our economy are poorly performing.

I would suggest the entertainment industry and in particular the games and movie industry which have been shown to experience a boom during recessions. The gaming industry has never been more popular. The Nintendo DS in Japan has now reached the point where there is more than 1 in every household. The games industry makes more than Hollywood a year and Scotland is already a place where they invest so it should not be that difficult to get them to consider Ireland for some of their activity. Some of them are already here. Gaming isn't just highly skilled jobs either. There are software testing jobs that would essentially involve, playing an unfinished version of the game and taking note of the steps to recreate a glitch and reporting it to the highly skilled people. There are also high skilled testing jobs but some of them don't have to be highly skilled.

07-04-2009 02:55PM

cavedave wrote: »

Who would be Irelands leading public intellectuals? Economics has a few Hobbes, MacWilliams, Lee all attempt intellectual debate. A famous public Irish chemist, physicist, computer scientist or mathematician? I cannot think of any maybe Aoibhínn Ní Shúilleabháin.

The most famus irish chemist would have been Robert Boyle.He is most fmous for Boyle's law.Then you have George Stoney involved in discovering and naming the electron.Also Ireland's only science nobel laureate,Ernest Walton.He is a physicist.

DCU would be well renowned in analytical chemistry(Brett Paul etc.)
UCC would be internationally renowned in Physics.
NUIG with biomedical sciences(NCBES)

cavedave · 07-04-2009 03:28PM

The_Dazzler

The most famus irish chemist would have been Robert Boyle.He is most fmous for Boyle's law.Then you have George Stoney involved in discovering and naming the electron.Also Ireland's only science nobel laureate,Ernest Walton.He is a physicist.

DCU would be well renowned in analytical chemistry(Brett Paul etc.)
UCC would be internationally renowned in Physics.
NUIG with biomedical sciences(NCBES)

I think i saw Boyle on prime time there. My point was not about the quality of researchers more about their presence in public debate. I am making the assumption that a knowledge based economy requires a knowledgeable population.

Do we have the sort where non dead people who would be on TV and you would hear the phrase "and now to talk about this we have, as you will all recognise, renowned scientist X". Where X in Britain could be Dawkins, Hawking, Lord Winston, Greenfield, lovelock,Tim Berners-Lee,Watson,Goodall and many more. The sort of people you see on newsnight or channel 4 news on occasion.

Now some of the reason you get these famous british scientists on british television is that they have more world class scientists. But is it the only reason?

Apologies for dragging this thread away from the current 8 month crisis beginings into more general irish society issue. Please feel free to tell me to move this general question elsewhere.

Flamed Diving · 07-04-2009 03:38PM

cavedave wrote: »

I think i saw Boyle on prime time there. My point was not about the quality of researchers more about their presence in public debate. I am making the assumption that a knowledge based economy requires a knowledgeable population.

Do we have the sort where non dead people who would be on TV and you would hear the phrase "and now to talk about this we have, as you will all recognise, renowned scientist X". Where X in Britain could be Dawkins, Hawking, Lord Winston, Greenfield, lovelock,Tim Berners-Lee,Watson,Goodall and many more. The sort of people you see on newsnight or channel 4 news on occasion.

Now some of the reason you get these famous british scientists on british television is that they have more world class scientists. But is it the only reason?

Apologies for dragging this thread away from the current 8 month crisis beginings into more general irish society issue. Please feel free to tell me to move this general question elsewhere.

That they are media whores?

cavedave · 07-04-2009 03:45PM

That they are media whores?

They may be but almost all human achievement is spurred on by ego. And without evidence here this isnt economics. But if whenever a knowledge based question arises if the public get their answers from a journalist rather then someone who is trying to expand that knowledge base does that encourage a knowledge based economy?

Economics seems to be the only science where you would expect to be able to stop someone on the street and name a living Irish participant. McWilliams et al might be media whores but at least they are presenting arguments from people with a knowledge in the area to the general public.

How would you raise the 4-6 Billion needed in 8 months

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