Laws Question? Ask here!

larchielads

would the points be awarded if the ball bounced over the bar from a penalty/conversion/drop goal? lets say for whatever reason the kicker missed kicked it and the ball flew forward and took a ferocious bounce(highly unlikely) and went over the bar and between the posts, whats the rule if there is one?

mikedragon32

larchielads wrote: »

would the points be awarded if the ball bounced over the bar from a penalty/conversion/drop goal? lets say for whatever reason the kicker missed kicked it and the ball flew forward and took a ferocious bounce(highly unlikely) and went over the bar and between the posts, whats the rule if there is one?

I think this was asked here before, but the answer is no!

thomond2006

If a player takes a lineout quickly to himself and kicks a drop goal straightaway, can the points be awarded?

Can drop goals only be scored after first phase?

d'Oracle

thomond2006 wrote: »

If a player takes a lineout quickly to himself and kicks a drop goal straightaway, can the points be awarded?

Can drop goals only be scored after first phase?

What a question......(first one)

Of course Drop goals can be scored after first phase.
There were about 10 running up to O'Garas in the 6N.
Unless we have different definitions of what a phase is.
But you can have a dink anytime bar a dropout, Kickoff or free kick, so I assume that if the quick line out is fair game, then the drop goal is.

Good luck getting the time to throw in to your self and line up a drop in range of the posts with out getting creamed and then jumped on by your teammates.......

mikedragon32

Once you've taken a quick lineout to yourself or a team mate, the ball is back in play and a drop kick can be attempted. Phases don't really come into it.

Likewise if a No. 8 was feeling ambitious, he could attempt a drop goal from the base of the scrum as once he's picked up the ball the scrum is over.

thomond2006

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Likewise if a No. 8 was feeling ambitious, he could attempt a drop goal from the base of the scrum as once he's picked up the ball the scrum is over.

hahahahahahaha I have a great image of Andy Powell trying this and ****ing up badly.

Cheers lads.

This is a great sticky thread.

Tim Robbins

mikedragon32 wrote: »

You can't kick a drop goal from the restart. If the ball goes into the in-goal area the receiving team has the option to continue play or ground the ball. If they ground it, they have the option to scrum back at the halfway.

Note: they must to ground it immediately, if they dilly dally, it's a 22.

Law:
13.15
(c) If they opt to ground the ball or make it dead, they must do so without delay. Any other action with the ball by a defending player means the player has elected to play on.

Larchielads wrote:

would the points be awarded if the ball bounced over the bar from a penalty/conversion/drop goal? lets say for whatever reason the kicker missed kicked it and the ball flew forward and took a ferocious bounce(highly unlikely) and went over the bar and between the posts, whats the rule if there is one?

Law 9.a.2:
(a) If after the ball is kicked, it touches the ground or any team-mate of the kicker, a goal
cannot be scored.

THOMOND2006 wrote:

If a player takes a lineout quickly to himself and kicks a drop goal straightaway, can the points be awarded?

Can drop goals only be scored after first phase?

Yes that's fine. The only one to watch out for is after a free kick.

Law 9.a.1:
Dropped Goal. A player scores a dropped goal by
kicking a goal from a drop kick in general play. The
team awarded a free kick cannot score a dropped
goal until the ball next becomes dead, or until an
opponent has played or touched it, or has tackled the
ball carrier. This restriction applies also to a scrum
taken instead of a free kick.

Sundy

d'Oracle wrote: »

What a question......(first one)

Of course Drop goals can be scored after first phase.
There were about 10 running up to O'Garas in the 6N.
Unless we have different definitions of what a phase is.
But you can have a dink anytime bar a dropout, Kickoff or free kick, so I assume that if the quick line out is fair game, then the drop goal is.

Good luck getting the time to throw in to your self and line up a drop in range of the posts with out getting creamed and then jumped on by your teammates.......

I dont think you can take a drop goal straight off a scrum either.

Tim Robbins

Sundy wrote: »

I dont think you can take a drop goal straight off a scrum either.

Yes you can. Unless it was a free kick and the team opted to take a scrum.

See Law 9, method scoring.

Law 9.a.1:
Dropped Goal. A player scores a dropped goal by kicking a goal from a drop kick in general play. The team awarded a free kick cannot score a dropped
goal until the ball next becomes dead, or until an opponent has played or touched it, or has tackled the ball carrier. This restriction applies also to a scrum taken instead of a free kick.

Crash

So for free kicks once first phase is over its back to normal rules, but in first phase you can't take a drop kick, is that correct?

Tim Robbins

Crash wrote: »

So for free kicks once first phase is over its back to normal rules, but in first phase you can't take a drop kick, is that correct?

Absolutely. Now see the reaction in a J4 game or a youth match, when it happens :-)

Crash

Aye, its like the one about being able to score a try with your feet in touch if you're grounding a ball that has rolled into the try area - that'd be a pain in the hole to enforce at top level, let along amateur.

jumpguy

I've a question, if you go to clear a ball out of a turned over ruck, but kind of half-fall on the ground (like one knee is on the ground to reach over and grab the ball out of the ball carrier's hands) is that playing on the ground? What is playing on the ground then?

mikedragon32

That is playing the ball on the ground. Any attempt to play the ball must be by a player with both feet on the ground.

big neilly

If the opposition kick the ball, it hits one of your players in the face and bounces forward into your hands are you offside?

curts82

Accident offside, scrum

crisco10

This happened in the match in the RDS on saturday:

After a bit of aerial ping pong, Earls kicked the ball from inside his own 22 but mis hit it so it bounced around the Munster 10 yard line. Now luke was running to catch it but it hopped over his head, luke then jumped and reached to catch it. He failed but it did hit his hand (but went backwards off his hand).
Now the ref must have called it a charge down thus meaning all the munster players hanging around the halfway were onside (due to the bout of ping pong that proceded it). The reason i think the ref called it is that all the munster players "woke up" at the same time.

My question is how was it a charge down? Luke was trying to field the kick and failed. if he had caught the ball the munster lads would have been offside surely? So how were all the munster players onside? This worked out as a big advantage to munster as they suddenly had about a 6 on 2 situation. (not that this makes a difference)

oh and the munster players were 10 yards away from where the ball landed (if that matters).

if anybody has the match recorded, it happened just before Munster's period of pressure on the Leinster line before halftime.

Thanking you...

curts82

he played the ball bringing them onside!! The ref wouldn't of called it, it would of being just commen knowledge

Ceartgoleor

I remember this incident and remember being puzzled by the referee's decision at the time too. The Munster players in question were surely obliged to retreat when Earls kicked the ball yet failed to do so, so I don't think Luke's playing the ball could have brought them onside, and there was no way Earls had brought them onside by the time they reacted. Think it was simply another error by the ref.

uberwolf

I've done a little reading already, and it contradicts what I understood.

I thought that if the referee was playing advantage for a knock on, and the team playing the advantage kicked the ball the advantage was over, whereas if he was playing advantage for a penalty offence then it would be pulled back.

Now what I've read is that the ref has complete discretion as to whether advantage has accrued, irrespective of the nature of the orig offence.

daveharnett

Ceartgoleor wrote: »

The Munster players in question were surely obliged to retreat when Earls kicked the ball

There is no obligation to retreat (provided you're not within 10M of where the ball will land). All that is required of an offside player is to keep out of everybody's way and not to move forward.

crisco10 wrote: »

After a bit of aerial ping pong, Earls kicked the ball from inside his own 22 but mis hit it so it bounced around the Munster 10 yard line. Now luke was running to catch it but it hopped over his head, luke then jumped and reached to catch it. He failed but it did hit his hand (but went backwards off his hand)...

how were all the munster players onside?

In this situation, a defender playing the ball (knocking it, passing it, kicking it, or running ~5 meters with it) puts all the kicker's teammates onside.

daveharnett

uberwolf wrote: »

I've done a little reading already, and it contradicts what I understood.

I thought that if the referee was playing advantage for a knock on, and the team playing the advantage kicked the ball the advantage was over, whereas if he was playing advantage for a penalty offence then it would be pulled back.

Now what I've read is that the ref has complete discretion as to whether advantage has accrued, irrespective of the nature of the orig offence.

Your last paragraph is correct. Here is why the knock on/penalty have different criteria for advantage.

The penalty for a knock on is a scrum, which means the non-offending scrum half will receive the ball 2m (half the length of a scrum) behind where the offense occurred. So, if the non-offending team gets the ball, doesn't get stuffed immediately, and makes a meter or two, they have 'gained an advantage'.

In the case of a penalty (depending on position) a good kicker can bring play 40 meters down the pitch. So it can take a big positional or tactical gain before a team has 'gained an advantage' by playing on.

daveharnett

A question about intpretation -
When a scrum half is planning to box kick from the back of a ruck, we regularly see two forwards (from the kicking team) standing on either side of the ruck, in front of the back foot. They make no effort to join it, but they will occasionally put a hand on it. The idea is to make it more difficult for would-be blockers to reach the kicker.

Is this legal, and if so, how? I know that standing offside is fine as long as you don't interfere, but surely they are interfering just by being there?
This happens very regularly at professional levels, and I have never seen a ref pull it.

Podge_irl

daveharnett wrote: »

A question about intpretation -
When a scrum half is planning to box kick from the back of a ruck, we regularly see two forwards (from the kicking team) standing on either side of the ruck, in front of the back foot. They make no effort to join it, but they will occasionally put a hand on it. The idea is to make it more difficult for would-be blockers to reach the kicker.

Is this legal, and if so, how?

They are what are regularly referred to as "pillars" and no, they're not technically legal. Its a matter of interpretation though, and the vast majority of the time they are let away with it. Just putting your hand on someone in the ruck does not qualify as binding so they're not part of the ruck, yet most definitely ahead of the last foot.They never really get pinged though.

castie

If they put a hand on the ruck then there are part of a defensive ruck and legal as far as i know
I thought also that a player does not have to get out of your way, just like with a garryowen, if the kicker was to run into a guy who just stood still then its no penalty.

daveharnett

castie wrote: »

If they put a hand on the ruck then there are part of a defensive ruck and legal as far as i know

No they are not part of the ruck - they haven't entered through the gate, and they're not bound to it (binding means shoulder deep, not touching with one finger)

castie wrote: »

I thought also that a player does not have to get out of your way, just like with a garryowen, if the kicker was to run into a guy who just stood still then its no penalty.

In the case of a kick, players can be offside through no fault of their own. AFAIK, if a player is offside through their own fault, it's another story. Think of a lazy runner after a ruck - they are obliged to keep out of the way.

Downtime

daveharnett wrote: »

A question about intpretation -
When a scrum half is planning to box kick from the back of a ruck, we regularly see two forwards (from the kicking team) standing on either side of the ruck, in front of the back foot. They make no effort to join it, but they will occasionally put a hand on it. The idea is to make it more difficult for would-be blockers to reach the kicker.

Is this legal, and if so, how? I know that standing offside is fine as long as you don't interfere, but surely they are interfering just by being there?
This happens very regularly at professional levels, and I have never seen a ref pull it.

In law they are offside. Most refs will ask them to move back. They are not bound to it but should be penalized if they prevent the 'attacking' team from accessing the scrum half. It all depends on the materiality of what they do as to whether they are pinged or not.

Munster Blogger

Small bit of a complicated question. Some ref allow it some don't

If a team try and set up a maul off a line out and no opposition players join ( to my knowledge this then is technically not a maul )
Is the opposition player then allowed go to the back of the "Maul" and tackle the player with the ball.

Hope that makes sense
Thanks

Downtime

Munster Blogger wrote: »

Small bit of a complicated question. Some ref allow it some don't

If a team try and set up a maul off a line out and no opposition players join ( to my knowledge this then is technically not a maul )
Is the opposition player then allowed go to the back of the "Maul" and tackle the player with the ball.

Hope that makes sense
Thanks

Yes it is not a maul. The opposition have 4 choices here. 1) Got to the back and tackle the ball carrier assuming the ball is there. 2) Engage at the front and assuming the ball is at the back it is penalisable for offside 3) If the ball carrier is at the front they can tackle him - 1 person only 4) Assuming the ball is at the front they can engage the opposition to form a maul

Munster Blogger

Downtime wrote: »

Yes it is not a maul. The opposition have 4 choices here. 1) Got to the back and tackle the ball carrier assuming the ball is there. 2) Engage at the front and assuming the ball is at the back it is penalisable for offside 3) If the ball carrier is at the front they can tackle him - 1 person only 4) Assuming the ball is at the front they can engage the opposition to form a maul

Thanks what i thought .Thanks for that, was never sure. Also saw it in the england match, ref got the call wrong and so have alot of others when ive been playing.