Developing fast twitch fibres

RealistSpy

Hi,

I am 21 and I am trying to develop a vast amount of fast twitch fibers IIa+IIb to help me with my sprinting. The question I have is basically when it comes to lifting weight, will 1. carrying heaver but less 2. Carrying Low weights but more reps or 3. caring Low weights but less and fast.

Which will help me more or will sprinting alone do the job or sprinting+plyometrics or sprinting+weights

Brian?

Heavier weights for lower reps target fast twitch fibers, I think.

aye

RealistSpy wrote: »

Hi,

I am 21 and I am trying to develop a vast amount of fast twitch fibers IIa+IIb to help me with my sprinting. The question I have is basically when it comes to lifting weight, will 1. carrying heaver but less 2. Carrying Low weights but more reps or 3. caring Low weights but less and fast.

Which will help me more or will sprinting alone do the job or sprinting+plyometrics or sprinting+weights

you cant increase the number of fast twitch fibers you have, but you can train them.

as said yes heavier weights with lower reps.
if you want to increase sprint speed, make sure you do exsercises working on you hamstrings, hip flexors, and quads.

power squats, walking lunges, dumbbell swings, deadlifts, romanian deadlifts, step ups.
plyometrics such as power lunges, squat jumps, tuck jumps, step jumps will help also.
running uphill too.
and sprinting of course

amazingemmet

Get gpp essentials by charlie francis and possibly some of his other sprinting books

http://www.charliefrancis.com/

It covers everything you need to know about getting fast and I've seen some amazing results from people using it.

Colm_OReilly

Olympic Lifting will help too

RealistSpy

I read somewhere that you can recrute fast twitch fibres? Does that not mean you are converting you slow twitch fibres to fast twitch. I am focusing in the regions of the hamstring, Quads, Glutts and Chest.

In addition does anyone have a like to a site where I can see the excersies being done e.g.
power squats, walking lunges, dumbbell swings, deadlifts, romanian deadlifts, step ups.
plyometrics such as power lunges, squat jumps, tuck jumps, step jumps

I know some already.

Edwardius

Dunno anything about fibre recruitment but I was talkin to a sprinter who took 0.5s off his 100m time by adding some heavy squats and power cleans into his training, so maybe start with that for a bit and see what happens (well that's if you're not doing it already...)

It'll probably depend on you level though, diminishing returns and all that.

itsallaboutheL

what u can manipulate is the two types of fast twitch fibres, i.e slow wont change to fast but a can change to b

Transform

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

what u can manipulate is the two types of fast twitch fibres, i.e slow wont change to fast but a can change to b

exactly

itsallaboutheL

Transform wrote: »

exactly

this is like praise from god.... wicked!

thirtyfoot

You really need to find a coach. There are many things you can and should be doing before you start wondering about fast twitch etc etc.

May be hard to find a coach where you are based but if you can do as it's the only way to make real progress.

Do you train with other athletes?

Have you got a coach?

You could do worse than reading the Charlie Francis book and if you can over his very shady past it a great place to start but get a coach. In your events (sprints & jumps) you are p*ssing into the wind without one.

Maybe set yourself 2 targets -

- Buy the Francis book to educate yourself.
- Find a coach or training group (even 1 who will help over the internet)

RealistSpy

I do have one but I just want a better understanding myself at the moment all I basically do is core work and short to full 100m sprints 70%-flatout.

I am curious about somthing might seem stupid but: does walking a lot affect your leg fibres? walking a lot = edurance.

Transform

man if you are not hitting the squats hard and working the glutes like crazy then all the running or walking is not going to matter a dam!!

Look at the best sprinters - huge glutes and those muscles are the main drivers in all explosive movements.

get your strength up and power will follow so if you are not doing proper weights this conversation is null and void. Start with light weights to get form right and build up slowly. Leave the olympic lifts until you get your base right (takes about 2-3 months).

Roper

RealistSpy wrote: »

I do have one but I just want a better understanding myself at the moment all I basically do is core work and short to full 100m sprints 70%-flatout.

I am curious about somthing might seem stupid but: does walking a lot affect your leg fibres? walking a lot = edurance.

Just to clarify are you looking to get better at the sport of sprinting, or sprinting short distances for football or something?

Either way walking won't help, that things for sure in fact excessive walking may be detrimental to your speed. If you want to get faster you need more leg strength. Now some will tell you that you need to be lifting fast a la Olympic lifting but realistically if you're not liftting already you need to get on a good total body programme to build some strength and get a bit bigger. If you're working over short distances you need a chassis to match your engine. O lifting won't do that as quickly as a pure strength programme.

Where are you living?

thirtyfoot

RealistSpy wrote: »

I do have one but I just want a better understanding myself at the moment all I basically do is core work and short to full 100m sprints 70%-flatout.

.

You need to get your basics right on the track before you start anything else.

You are a jumper and 100/200 man right?, so you need to be doing a lot more than just 100m sprints. It sounds like your program is wrong and needs total restructure. Maybe put up what you are doing right now as regards training? What days and the specifics of exercise. Right now if you are looking to race for varsities and the early season in May/June you should be looking at doing the following as a minimum (4 days):

Speed - short acceleration work, over 20-60m. Full recoveries, maybe 5 or 6 runs. 100% effort

Speed Endurance - 2-3 sets of 3 x 150m. 90s to 2mins between 150's, 5-6 mins between sets. Pace at about 85-90%

Strength & Conditioning Day - circuits/hills/core/bounding/light plyos

Technical work - starts/pickups. Someone watching you and tweaking and changing if needs be. Drills.

Thats your basis and then on top of that if you have time do more strength work like weights in the gym. Starting weights now for the first time as you head into the season may not be the best thing. Maybe integrate weights for the first time next September/October when the season is over and you are into planning your following season. Thats what I would do anyway.

RealistSpy

Thanks everyone once again, just to be clear. I am doing 60/100m, long jump, triple jump. I might end up droping the jumps for 200m so I will be sprint focus, but still not sure.

I am 62-64kg and 5.5-5f.6 tall.

What I ment by walking was that basically I walk to college every day and to training aswell which is like 30min walk.

I am currently lifting 200kg x10 3 reps leg press, 50-65kg x8 3reps bench press, 13kg x10 3rep dumbell press, 110kg x10 3rep hamstring curls etc

mondays = core work + plyometrics
Tuesdays = core work + 60m x 5 dash and 100m x2 sprint
Wednesday = 40m sprint 70 - 100%, 60m sprint 70-100% and 100m sprints 100% it differs ever week.
Thursday = weight heavy + core work
Friday = core work + plyometrics
weekend = rest

Have in mind that I also go to college and work etc so I do with what time I have. My training changes some weeks but thats my new time table till college is over.

Transform

RealistSpy wrote: »

Thanks everyone once again, just to be clear. I am doing 60/100m, long jump, triple jump. I might end up droping the jumps for 200m so I will be sprint focus, but still not sure.

I am 62-64kg and 5.5-5f.6 tall.

What I ment by walking was that basically I walk to college every day and to training aswell which is like 30min walk.

I am currently lifting 200kg x10 3 reps leg press, 50-65kg x8 3reps bench press, 13kg x10 3rep dumbell press, 110kg x10 3rep hamstring curls etc

mondays = core work + plyometrics
Tuesdays = core work + 60m x 5 dash and 100m x2 sprint
Wednesday = 40m sprint 70 - 100%, 60m sprint 70-100% and 100m sprints 100% it differs ever week.
Thursday = weight heavy + core work
Friday = core work + plyometrics
weekend = rest

Have in mind that I also go to college and work etc so I do with what time I have. My training changes some weeks but thats my new time table till college is over.

Your program is not going to make you into the next usain.

one day on weights any wayyyyy to much time doing core work which is not going to make even a fraction of a second difference to your sprint times if your not doing squats, lunges, step ups, split squats etc

what age are you?

feel free to add more guys

RealistSpy

core work = core work itself + squats with db, lunges with db, step ups with db, split squats etc are also done on my core days

thirtyfoot

Transform wrote: »

Your program is not going to make you into the next usain.

one day on weights any wayyyyy to much time doing core work which is not going to make even a fraction of a second difference to your sprint times if your not doing squats, lunges, step ups, split squats etc

what age are you?

feel free to add more guys

Yeah, I'd drop one of the core/plyo days and replace with a technical running and weights day. So starts or block work, drills and then followed by weights (assuming your weights are close to your track). I'd also put a day between the running days so that they aren't consecutive. Also, I would do more speed endurance of say 2-3 sets of 3 x 150's and then do shorter stuff on the other running day.

That would be then 3 days at the track and 2 days off it.

Maybe do your hardest running day on monday when you have had 2 days rest.

Transform

with what weights? Reps sets etc

Your age?

RealistSpy

I am 21 just, 63-64kg @5foot6.

I use 13kgx2 10sets 3reps for squats using dumbells, same with the launges. I use 9kg for step ups (high step-ups).

floggg

I'll stay out of the technical aspects of this, but i remember watching a documentary on the BBC just before the last olympics about the young british sprint hopefuls, and they were all beasts, pumping serious leg iron. And if you look at the likes of Asafa powell, they're absolutely built. I imagine some heavier lifting might be something to consider.

amazingemmet

RealistSpy wrote: »

I am 21 just, 63-64kg @5foot6.

I use 13kgx2 10sets 3reps for squats using dumbells, same with the launges. I use 9kg for step ups (high step-ups).

Your numbers are ridiculously low for a sprinter. For and example i know a 400m sprinter who got a scholarship to university his numbers are 240kg squat and i think a 250kg deadlift. he's two years older then you and 7kg heavier

aye

RealistSpy wrote: »

T
I am currently lifting 200kg x10 3 reps leg press, 50-65kg x8 3reps bench press, 13kg x10 3rep dumbell press, 110kg x10 3rep hamstring curls etc

RealistSpy wrote: »

I use 13kgx2 10sets 3reps for squats using dumbells, same with the launges. I use 9kg for step ups (high step-ups).

Does you find squattinat that weight difficult?
I think if you can legs press 200kg, you could certainly squat more than 26kg.

did you find any site withh videos on the power lunges etc?
i cant look at vid in work i'm afraid.

injured365

You should definitely be lifting more weight for legs. Id advise dropping the dumbbells and getting under the bar and concentrate on building up some real muscle and power in your legs. Also as someone else mentioned, theres no need for a sprinter to do so much core work when exercises like squatting, deadlifting and lunging work your core a fair bit as well.
As for your sprints, walking to college will do little to help you as you would be wprking different muscle fibres to those in use during sprints. But what rest time do you have during your training sprints? I think you should be doin sprint training far more often as well. I mean you want to compete in the 100m yet how many times a week do you practise sprinting at this distance??

Roper

injured365 wrote: »

I think you should be doin sprint training far more often as well. I mean you want to compete in the 100m yet how many times a week do you practise sprinting at this distance??

WHOA!

Fitness forum not sprint training forum. Technical coaching ahould be left to coaches. My friend who is an athletics coach does 4x 100m efforts per week of training with his 100m runners, that's it. Coaching varies, some do massive intensity some not much and without knowing the athlete you can't prescribe technical work.

thirtyfoot

amazingemmet wrote: »

Your numbers are ridiculously low for a sprinter. For and example i know a 400m sprinter who got a scholarship to university his numbers are 240kg squat and i think a 250kg deadlift. he's two years older then you and 7kg heavier

What's his PB for 400? Is he Irish?

All the top 400 boys I know in Ireland who are running 46's and 47's wouldn't have numbers like that so would be interested to know how does that transfer to times on the track.

injured365

Roper wrote: »

WHOA!

Fitness forum not sprint training forum. Technical coaching ahould be left to coaches. My friend who is an athletics coach does 4x 100m efforts per week of training with his 100m runners, that's it. Coaching varies, some do massive intensity some not much and without knowing the athlete you can't prescribe technical work.

Fair enough, in something like sprinting training is very athlete specific. I was comparing training i used do when i did sprinting a few years ago. Now that i think about i did train more than the other sprinters. Until injury forced me out.

thirtyfoot

Roper wrote: »

WHOA!

Fitness forum not sprint training forum. Technical coaching ahould be left to coaches. My friend who is an athletics coach does 4x 100m efforts per week of training with his 100m runners, that's it. Coaching varies, some do massive intensity some not much and without knowing the athlete you can't prescribe technical work.

Yeah and I wouldn't even describe it as technical work!! The whole program is all over the shop, his only running days one after the other, and both very similar sessions, no pure speed work, no speed endurance work. The program needs major surgery and I think a back to basics and improving overall conditioning (as you suggest) is whats needed.

Hession was doing 120 and 130's last week when I met him in Santry, I think it was 9 or so reps. OP still needs to be doing speed endurance work up to 150. Derval O' Rourke does work up to 130m as well for her speed endurance.

amazingemmet

Tingle wrote: »

What's his PB for 400? Is he Irish?

All the top 400 boys I know in Ireland who are running 46's and 47's wouldn't have numbers like that so would be interested to know how does that transfer to times on the track.

I don't know his times, he's on teamtest so you could ask him there username daveyc

RealistSpy

amazingemmet wrote: »

Your numbers are ridiculously low for a sprinter. For and example i know a 400m sprinter who got a scholarship to university his numbers are 240kg squat and i think a 250kg deadlift. he's two years older then you and 7kg heavier

yes but everyone is different man I have to work alot because I dont get grant and I train as much as possible.
Anyways back to the point, doing 200kgx10 leg press3 sets is not that hard for me but that is the max the gym has.

I lift less with dubless because I find it hard to balance my body not like the weight is hard. I lift heaver using machine barbells e.g 60-70kg squating and 25kg barbell launges etc.

I am skinny and short so I can't be lifting like a beast :P so can anyone give me an example of gym tables and should i increase my weights by +.5 every week or ??

Eurox

Heavy weights with low reps say 3s & big recovery5min+. I would then recommend you do 5 X 30m sprints after the weights session walk back recovery. :rolleyes:

RealistSpy

how many reps would you recommend?

Eurox

3 X 95% of your max,take 6-8min recovery and finish with 5 X 30M sprints walkback rec.

Roper

Eurox,

What are you basing that programme on?

cardio,shoot me

i wouldnt listen to anyone giving advice on the sprinting, these people arent necessarily qualified personal trainers or professional sprinters so the advice being churned out might not be suited to you

thirtyfoot

cardio,shoot me wrote: »

qualified personal trainers

Wouldn't listen to a personal trainer regarding sprinting either, no offence to personal trainers!!

But you are right he is faffing around and adding on bells and whistles to a fundamentally wrong programme. He needs to go back to basics, find a coach and get a proper programme. He runs twice a week which is not enough.

You post here and most people will tell you to go and work hard in the gym and get big. You post on athletics and people will tell you to run and feck the weights. Its somewhere in between but he needs to sort his running out first. I've posted here a couple of times and have said the same thing in different formats but really my original suggestion is probably the best - FIND A NEW COACH!

Hanley

amazingemmet wrote: »

I don't know his times, he's on teamtest so you could ask him there username daveyc

Serious???

Is that 240kg squat raw??? :eek:

amazingemmet

Hanley wrote: »

Serious???

Is that 240kg squat raw??? :eek:

Yeah its something ridiculous like that. Pretty sure it was just belt but not 100%

RealistSpy

Yeh I am back to the basics and my new coach tokd me I was striding before and now am running properly so I will be testing it the interversities.

Ignore the sprinting part of the problem lets focus on the gym stuff her as Tingle said.

thirtyfoot

RealistSpy wrote: »

Ignore the sprinting part of the problem lets focus on the gym stuff her as Tingle said.

Thats not my point. You cant ignore it. You must plan both at the same time and whatever you do on the track should be mirrorer to a certain extent to what you do in the gym.

RealistSpy

But I want to know what to do in the gym here and what to do on the track in the track section

RealistSpy

I have moved up to 70kg bench press 5reps and 3 ses. unfortunatly the max the gym has in leg press is 200kg but I have move my squats to 60kg 5 reps 3 sets.
How is that before someone tell me to do other stuffs aswell, I do other stuffs aswell these two is just my favorite

Transform

leg press one leg at a time and add in heavier lunges

Transform

i would not believe that unless i saw it on video and for a full squat.

I trained with Jim Kilty's group of sprinters some years ago - all doing silly squat weights (200kg+) and all for partials. Might not have been a coincidence that some went on to have fairly bad back problems me thinks!

Now i am sure things have changed (hopefully) but there are lots of i squat/leg preee XX weight and very little evidence.

thirtyfoot

Transform wrote: »

I trained with Jim Kilty's group of sprinters some years ago - all doing silly squat weights (200kg+) and all for partials. Might not have been a coincidence that some went on to have fairly bad back problems me thinks!

Now i am sure things have changed (hopefully) but there are lots of i squat/leg preee XX weight and very little evidence.

Thats interesting you mention the Kilty group. Techinically and on the track Jim is one of the best coaches in Europe. His athletes where always in amazing shape but the consensus I got from his athletes was that in the gym he wasn't as good as on the track which adds to the arguement that you need to marry the two and be excellent at coaching both or at least have a good understanding of both and get help if needed. Interesting you mention the injury thing too as I train with an ex-Kilty athlete at the moment and he says (just yesterday) that if you were prone to injury you'd be in trouble with his training. I'm saying all this having coached nobody of consequence and Kilty has coached more Olympians in Ireland than any coach or trainer in any sport, ever so I'm one to talk!!!

Regarding the 'I squat xx kg' sprinter brigade, there is a pretty interesting guy training in Dublin at the moment. 6th in the World Juniors over 400m last season (until he got DQ'ed for a lane violation), touted as a man who has all the ingredients to be as good as Gillick in years to come and run very, very fast, is 1.90m, weighs 85kg and wait for it can squat 100kg to 90 degrees! An inverse example of not transferring your gym numbers to the track:)

Transform

Jim is still the man when it comes to srpinting but imo back then his ideas on weight were wayyyyy off. It might be better now but anyone who tells me they are squatting over 200kg for partials had better have a feckin brilliant foundation to even hold that weight and NOT get injured.

i am no sprint coach so my two cents is the following - you will be very very very blood fast when you can squat (ideally front squat as its harder to cheat on that) double your body weight and stay very lean at the same time.

From what i can see at the moment with athletes they still spend more time feckin about doing 'core' work and mickey mouse upper body exercises and need to get with the graft of the lower body work.

Oh and cleans also - can't really cheat your numbers on that either.

Finally, for anyone who does the leg press or leg extensions - THESE EXERCISES DO NOT COUNT FOR LOWER BODY WORK.

I never have 50year old male/female clients do these so why are you doing them? Is it because you can appear to be strong but really need a good kick up the backside?

RealistSpy

Transform wrote: »

Jim is still the man when it comes to srpinting but imo back then his ideas on weight were wayyyyy off. It might be better now but anyone who tells me they are squatting over 200kg for partials had better have a feckin brilliant foundation to even hold that weight and NOT get injured.

i am no sprint coach so my two cents is the following - you will be very very very blood fast when you can squat (ideally front squat as its harder to cheat on that) double your body weight and stay very lean at the same time.

From what i can see at the moment with athletes they still spend more time feckin about doing 'core' work and mickey mouse upper body exercises and need to get with the graft of the lower body work.

Oh and cleans also - can't really cheat your numbers on that either.

Finally, for anyone who does the leg press or leg extensions - THESE EXERCISES DO NOT COUNT FOR LOWER BODY WORK.

I never have 50year old male/female clients do these so why are you doing them? Is it because you can appear to be strong but really need a good kick up the backside?

Oh so does Leg press not count I guess I have to stop that. I moved my squart to 70kg 6 x 3sets I use a backbelt to support my back. Its not free weight by the way its one of those with safty lock. I am also sprinting 3 days a weeks knowand gym and core reduced to 2 day. Core in the morning heavey weights after college.

Transform

use all the feckin core work you have been doing to support your back NOT a belt.

you should not need a belt until you get well over 100kg and even then only when doing 1-2 reps.

thirtyfoot

Transform wrote: »

Jim is still the man when it comes to srpinting

Unfortunately he doesn't coach sprinters too much anymore bar a couple of development 400m women who I expect one to be very strong this year at either 400m or 400 hurdles.

Transform wrote: »

From what i can see at the moment with athletes they still spend more time feckin about doing 'core' work and mickey mouse upper body exercises and need to get with the graft of the lower body work.

See this is the thing. Good personal trainers or S&C don't think sprint coaches know enough about weights which is true and good sprint coaches think S&C guys don't know enough about sprinting which is true. There are obvious example of both types who know a lot about both and why I believe a good sprint coach should also be a good S&C coach. I know two what you might classify as S&C coaches who are track athletes. Both are doing ok, one working with Leinster rugby and the other Dublin GAA but only one is coaching track athletes too and I would have a fair bit of contact with him and he helps me greatly whenever I ask (which is often enough!). By the way, he doesn't focus at all on upperbody or traditional core work with his sprinters.

Its a tough one for a sprint coach because if they don't have the weights knowlegde it can kill the work they are doing on the track. Asking for help can work and also fail. Derval O' Rourke now works with Sean/Terri Cahill with her sprinting/hurdling and the SportsMed guys for her S&C. Seems to work well and she has had a rejuvenated season and got a bronze in the recent Euros. Interestingly, her lifting numbers are down since she started with the SportsMed guys compared to last year when she was in the UK but she is faster on the track. There are other high profile sprinter examples where this didn't work in Ireland but then worked spectaularly when this athlete went overseas. Another high profile sprinter tried to follow suit to the same spot overseas and the S&C setup there didn't really suit her while it really benefitted the other guy. I suppose it depends on the athlete and the coach dynamic etc.

Would you ever be tempted to get involved in S&C of elite athletics here (or are you already)? One area lacking is middle/long distance that could be tapped into. I was watching one of our top female distance runners do a conditioning workout earlier in the month and it was shocking how lacking in dynamism and general body conditioning they were. At first I thought it was some punter in off the street until I realised who it was:eek:

Roper

Tingle wrote: »

Regarding the 'I squat xx kg' sprinter brigade, there is a pretty interesting guy training in Dublin at the moment. 6th in the World Juniors over 400m last season (until he got DQ'ed for a lane violation), touted as a man who has all the ingredients to be as good as Gillick in years to come and run very, very fast, is 1.90m, weighs 85kg and wait for it can squat 100kg to 90 degrees! An inverse example of not transferring your gym numbers to the track:)

But where we fall down in Ireland is when we try to take those interesting athletes to the next level. They can be as interesting as they like at 19 squatting 100kgs but they won't be very interesting for much longer when they're racing against the guy from the US or UK who is snatching their squat. We have lots and lots and lots of promising kids but limited structures to make them athletes.